Debate Now White Privilege and an Institution of Racism

[Foxfyre]

Being White is not a privilege, it's a responsibility

Why Tank? Why is being white more of a responsibility that being an American of any other skin color?

Being White is not more of a responsibility of being an American, it's more of a responsibility of being human

I'm sorry but that isn't computing for me. Why does a person's skin color give him/her more responsibility than any other person?

 

[SeaGal]

...And like many other cities, Detroit is plagued with poverty, gang and drug crime, failing schools, budget shortfalls, and other uglies amidst a thriving shiny prosperous looking downtown financial center, and most--not all but most--of the ugly side affects black people more than any other.

So you tell me why the poverty? The failing schools? A crime rate more than double the national average for cities? Bad parents? People who don't pay enough taxes? Teachers who don't teach? Cultural? Or racism? Or something else?

In certain circles the blame is attributed to 'white flight'. So the story goes - When the jobs left so did many whites - leaving the poor to fend for themselves - that's partially true as the result of events, but not a causative factor.

I lived in Detroit, during the late 50's, early 60's. Our neighborhood was solidly blue collar. Older, bungalow or craftsman style homes with basements, mostly 2 or 3 bdrms, 1 bath...much like 'Roseanne's' house in the TV series. The education system was excellent and far advanced...there were well maintained public parks with well equipped playgrounds. George Romney (Mitt's dad) was governor. ('63) We rode our bikes all over the place in the summer.

Made a recent visit to the old neighborhood via google earth - you wouldn't want to drive through it, let alone walk. Homes, not burned down or boarded up, are selling from $12,000 to $15,000...that beautiful amazing working class neighborhood public elementary school, one that offered free violin lessons complete with free violin as an extracurricular activity, that had a conservatory to further the study of botany - is now a failing school. The parks are overgrown and littered empty fields.

What happened?...I think the first question should be - where did the jobs go?

 

[Tank]

I'm sorry but that isn't computing for me. Why does a person's skin color give him/her more responsibility than any other person?

Due to the fact that blacks have higher testosterone and lower IQ levels on average then do all other races it is just natural that the people who are smarter and less violent would have more responsibility for the things that happen in the world.

The same way a parent is responsible for what a child does

 

[Tank]

I think the first question should be - where did the jobs go?

With the people who want to work and live in a safe neighborhood

 

[Foxfyre]

...And like many other cities, Detroit is plagued with poverty, gang and drug crime, failing schools, budget shortfalls, and other uglies amidst a thriving shiny prosperous looking downtown financial center, and most--not all but most--of the ugly side affects black people more than any other.

So you tell me why the poverty? The failing schools? A crime rate more than double the national average for cities? Bad parents? People who don't pay enough taxes? Teachers who don't teach? Cultural? Or racism? Or something else?

In certain circles the blame is attributed to 'white flight'. So the story goes - When the jobs left so did many whites - leaving the poor to fend for themselves - that's partially true as the result of events, but not a causative factor.

I lived in Detroit, during the late 50's, early 60's. Our neighborhood was solidly blue collar. Older, bungalow or craftsman style homes with basements, mostly 2 or 3 bdrms, 1 bath...much like 'Roseanne's' house in the TV series. The education system was excellent and far advanced...there were well maintained public parks with well equipped playgrounds. George Romney (Mitt's dad) was governor. ('63) We rode our bikes all over the place in the summer.

Made a recent visit to the old neighborhood via google earth - you wouldn't want to drive through it, let alone walk. Homes, not burned down or boarded up, are selling from $12,000 to $15,000...that beautiful amazing working class neighborhood public elementary school, one that offered free violin lessons complete with free violin as an extracurricular activity, that had a conservatory to further the study of botany - is now a failing school. The parks are overgrown and littered empty fields.

What happened?...I think the first question should be - where did the jobs go?

I wonder if it is lack of jobs that create the situation though Seagal? Or the situation that created the lack of jobs?

Some years ago I spent four months visiting and interviewing people in Appalachia. To the casual eye there appears to be stark poverty--folks living in tiny houses, driving cars that looked like there were held together with duct tape and baling wire, weathered people with callouses on their hands. But they owned those tiny houses and old beat up cars, they grew and canned and smoked and dried most of their food, all the women and some of the men could make their own clothes, and their neighborhoods were supportive, stable, and safe. These are serious people but not unhappy people. I saw and they reported none of the anger or violence that you witness in the inner cities.

And I remember when those inner cities were cohesive neighborhoods where people knew and supported their neighbors. There was life and vitality and it was good. And then came urban renewal and ripped out all those old neighborhoods, sent the people to the projects that quickly turned into ghettos.

Was that how it all started?

 

[Tank]

In certain circles the blame is attributed to 'white flight'. So the story goes - When the jobs left so did many whites - leaving the poor to fend for themselves?

You make it sound like a parent left their child

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm sorry but that isn't computing for me. Why does a person's skin color give him/her more responsibility than any other person?

Due to the fact that blacks have higher testosterone and lower IQ levels on average then do all other races it is just natural that the people who are smarter and less violent would have more responsibility for the things that happen in the world.

The same way a parent is responsible for what a child does

I do not agree with that at all. It was not all that long ago that black people, as a demographic, were once not at all violent, were hard working, ambitious people, and right up to the Great Society programs of the 1960's, they were the most rapidly economic advancing demographic in America. And yes, I do blame the Great Society programs for much of that slowing down and then reversing.

 

[Tank]

Blacks behave the same way all over the world

 

[sealybobo]

Being White is not a privilege, it's a responsibility

Why Tank? Why is being white more of a responsibility that being an American of any other skin color?

Have you seen Detroit's comeback? It's all white. Detroit is a mess without guys like Dan Gilbert and the white mayor.

For decades detroiters wouldn't elect a white mayor.

If blacks would start their own businesses whites wouldn't feel obligated to hire blacks. Blacks could go work for blacks.

Was that a joke? If Blacks would start their own business, whites wouldn't feel obligated to hire blacks?

That was a joke, right? You think any business anywhere has a recruiter sitting there.... I better hire this guy, there are no black businesses here....? ANd that if it changed "Oh good I don't have to hire this guy, there are black business owners here"?

Sealybobo, however, is encouraged to share his perspective that seems to come from the 'black people should lift themselves up' camp, and that is a valid argument.

All people, whatever their skin color, want some things that money can buy. But when you have a very large concentration of poor people, whatever their skin color, there isn't as much money available to support businesses. And when you have an unusually high crime rate, the risk of starting a business is increased significantly.

Great posts. One thing I would advise the people of Detroit is to get out. 700,000 fled to the burbs and I think that's a good thing. If you aint making it in Detroit get out. Plenty of other places in America to make it.

How come black people don't move? They moved from the south to the north for jobs. Now that the jobs have gone away, they may need to move again.

I can't 100% argue with anything you say because I agree with most of what you say. But you got to stop making excuses. I get it. Not their fault. So what do you want to do now that we agree it's not their fault? If their schools look like shit, organize and go clean them.

We could go all day with you giving me reasons why they can't. Why don't you instead figuring out how you can. And if you can't, then what's your next move? What do you suggest?

Racism is over. I know it still exists but it's no excuse anymore. You have to stop that liberal bullshit. I tried it for 30 years and trust me, you are defending losers. Any black who's worth their weight is not having these problems anymore. They've made it out of racism.

So we understand what put the hood rats in the hood. It was white racism. I get that. My question is how are black people going to de hoodafy themselves? You need to make a push as a culture. The black community can no longer afford eubonics and wearing your pants down low. Teach your kids that won't cut it in the new America.

Black people have to stop proving the stereotypes true.

Now I know you can argue everything I said because I could argue with every comment I made too. Just tell your black brothers and sisters in high crime and poverty areas that no one gives a shit about them while they are there. The citizens in their community are bad citizens who don't even vote. Politicians don't represent or respect bad citizens who don't vote. And no one told you to have a kid you can't afford. Are you telling us black people are too stupid to learn this? Seems like what you are saying is that we have dumbed down the black community. Is that right?

 

[sealybobo]

Blacks behave the same way all over the world

No they do not African blacks hate being associated and stereotyped with African Americans. They are much more cultured and sophisticated. The same way Europeans roll their eyes whenever they see an American in Europe. We are loud, unsophisticated, ignorant and rude.

 

[Tank]

Blacks behave the same way all over the world

No they do not African blacks hate being associated and stereotyped with African Americans. They are much more cultured and sophisticated. The same way Europeans roll their eyes whenever they see an American in Europe. We are loud, unsophisticated, ignorant and rude.

What are the rape and murder rates in Africa?

 

[Foxfyre]

Being White is not a privilege, it's a responsibility

Why Tank? Why is being white more of a responsibility that being an American of any other skin color?

Have you seen Detroit's comeback? It's all white. Detroit is a mess without guys like Dan Gilbert and the white mayor.

For decades detroiters wouldn't elect a white mayor.

If blacks would start their own businesses whites wouldn't feel obligated to hire blacks. Blacks could go work for blacks.

Was that a joke? If Blacks would start their own business, whites wouldn't feel obligated to hire blacks?

That was a joke, right? You think any business anywhere has a recruiter sitting there.... I better hire this guy, there are no black businesses here....? ANd that if it changed "Oh good I don't have to hire this guy, there are black business owners here"?

Sealybobo, however, is encouraged to share his perspective that seems to come from the 'black people should lift themselves up' camp, and that is a valid argument.

All people, whatever their skin color, want some things that money can buy. But when you have a very large concentration of poor people, whatever their skin color, there isn't as much money available to support businesses. And when you have an unusually high crime rate, the risk of starting a business is increased significantly.

Great posts. One thing I would advise the people of Detroit is to get out. 700,000 fled to the burbs and I think that's a good thing. If you aint making it in Detroit get out. Plenty of other places in America to make it.

How come black people don't move? They moved from the south to the north for jobs. Now that the jobs have gone away, they may need to move again.

I can't 100% argue with anything you say because I agree with most of what you say. But you got to stop making excuses. I get it. Not their fault. So what do you want to do now that we agree it's not their fault? If their schools look like shit, organize and go clean them.

We could go all day with you giving me reasons why they can't. Why don't you instead figuring out how you can. And if you can't, then what's your next move? What do you suggest?

Racism is over. I know it still exists but it's no excuse anymore. You have to stop that liberal bullshit. I tried it for 30 years and trust me, you are defending losers. Any black who's worth their weight is not having these problems anymore. They've made it out of racism.

So we understand what put the hood rats in the hood. It was white racism. I get that. My question is how are black people going to de hoodafy themselves? You need to make a push as a culture. The black community can no longer afford eubonics and wearing your pants down low. Teach your kids that won't cut it in the new America.

Black people have to stop proving the stereotypes true.

Now I know you can argue everything I said because I could argue with every comment I made too. Just tell your black brothers and sisters in high crime and poverty areas that no one gives a shit about them while they are there. The citizens in their community are bad citizens who don't even vote. Politicians don't represent or respect bad citizens who don't vote. And no one told you to have a kid you can't afford. Are you telling us black people are too stupid to learn this? Seems like what you are saying is that we have dumbed down the black community. Is that right?

There is a lot of content here and thank you for the time and effort that you put into it. And philosophically I can't argue with much, if any, of it.

But going back to the O.P. versus what Asclepias has argued, is the problem inate as Tank suggests, or cultural as you and Seagal suggest?

I go with cultural but an artificial culture created and perpetuated by both black and white racists who purport to care about black people but in fact do their damndest to keep them on that cultural plantation of poverty, victim mentality, and belief government can somehow force 'whitey' to make them whole. Meanwhile those black and white racists increase their own power and personal fortunes by doing that.

 

[Foxfyre]

Blacks behave the same way all over the world

No they do not African blacks hate being associated and stereotyped with African Americans. They are much more cultured and sophisticated. The same way Europeans roll their eyes whenever they see an American in Europe. We are loud, unsophisticated, ignorant and rude.

What are the rape and murder rates in Africa?

But again, is the rape and murder rate anywhere caused because people are black or Arab or some other color besides white? Our own history would strongly show that such is not the case.

Instead you have cultural conditions, perpetuated by cruel and/or corrupt governments in which a majority of black and/or Arab or whatever people reside.

 

[sealybobo]

Why Tank? Why is being white more of a responsibility that being an American of any other skin color?

Have you seen Detroit's comeback? It's all white. Detroit is a mess without guys like Dan Gilbert and the white mayor.

For decades detroiters wouldn't elect a white mayor.

If blacks would start their own businesses whites wouldn't feel obligated to hire blacks. Blacks could go work for blacks.

Was that a joke? If Blacks would start their own business, whites wouldn't feel obligated to hire blacks?

That was a joke, right? You think any business anywhere has a recruiter sitting there.... I better hire this guy, there are no black businesses here....? ANd that if it changed "Oh good I don't have to hire this guy, there are black business owners here"?

Sealybobo, however, is encouraged to share his perspective that seems to come from the 'black people should lift themselves up' camp, and that is a valid argument.

All people, whatever their skin color, want some things that money can buy. But when you have a very large concentration of poor people, whatever their skin color, there isn't as much money available to support businesses. And when you have an unusually high crime rate, the risk of starting a business is increased significantly.

Great posts. One thing I would advise the people of Detroit is to get out. 700,000 fled to the burbs and I think that's a good thing. If you aint making it in Detroit get out. Plenty of other places in America to make it.

How come black people don't move? They moved from the south to the north for jobs. Now that the jobs have gone away, they may need to move again.

I can't 100% argue with anything you say because I agree with most of what you say. But you got to stop making excuses. I get it. Not their fault. So what do you want to do now that we agree it's not their fault? If their schools look like shit, organize and go clean them.

We could go all day with you giving me reasons why they can't. Why don't you instead figuring out how you can. And if you can't, then what's your next move? What do you suggest?

Racism is over. I know it still exists but it's no excuse anymore. You have to stop that liberal bullshit. I tried it for 30 years and trust me, you are defending losers. Any black who's worth their weight is not having these problems anymore. They've made it out of racism.

So we understand what put the hood rats in the hood. It was white racism. I get that. My question is how are black people going to de hoodafy themselves? You need to make a push as a culture. The black community can no longer afford eubonics and wearing your pants down low. Teach your kids that won't cut it in the new America.

Black people have to stop proving the stereotypes true.

Now I know you can argue everything I said because I could argue with every comment I made too. Just tell your black brothers and sisters in high crime and poverty areas that no one gives a shit about them while they are there. The citizens in their community are bad citizens who don't even vote. Politicians don't represent or respect bad citizens who don't vote. And no one told you to have a kid you can't afford. Are you telling us black people are too stupid to learn this? Seems like what you are saying is that we have dumbed down the black community. Is that right?

There is a lot of content here and thank you for the time and effort that you put into it. And philosophically I can't argue with much, if any, of it.

But going back to the O.P. versus what Asclepias has argued, is the problem inate as Tank suggests, or cultural as you and Seagal suggest?

I go with cultural but an artificial culture created and perpetuated by both black and white racists who purport to care about black people but in fact do their damndest to keep them on that cultural plantation of poverty, victim mentality, and belief government can somehow force 'whitey' to make them whole. Meanwhile those black and white racists increase their own power and personal fortunes by doing that.

That's why I'm hoping, for at least a couple years, Republicans boldly tell black people enough excuses, racism is over, get over it and move on. And force them off the government cheese.

I don't know if you saw my idea of working for welfare? Why can't single moms, at least some of them, get certified to be daycare providers and provide those services for women who want to work but can't pay for daycare? Or course we won't just let anyone be a daycare provider but I think we could get some of the women who just sit at home all day watching their own kids and collecting welfare could watch other people's kids too and earn that welfare check.

This is just one idea but we have to try something new. What we are doing now isn't working and the closer you look the more you realize you can give every black person $1 million dollars and in a couple years they'll be broke and back looking for welfare. They won't save, they won't move.

And you'll blame who?

Ok so they don't get $1 million dollars. They can still save and/or move. Don't tell me they can't. I know it's hard.

 

[Tank]

It's not cultural, it's biological

 

[iamwhatiseem]

The liberal social engineering policies of the 50s-70's caused tremendous problems for the black race.
You had whole populations, 1000's even 10,000's of people living in tight quarters with nothing to do all day. I don't care what race those people are - social problems and crime is going to happen. All people become destructive without anything constructive to do and focus on. And that is what happen with inner city blacks. They had nothing to do because everything was given to them. That created a permanent dependent society...forever seeing themselves as deserving of special treatment.
Today there has been an absolute vacuum of positive role players in their culture. Black leadership is full of self-serving inciters using "the cause" to enrich themselves and by all means keep the fires of discontent alive and well.

 

[Foxfyre]

It's not cultural, it's biological

I just don't believe that Tank. I believe there is simply no justification to believe it.

 

[Tank]

It's not cultural, it's biological

I just don't believe that Tank. I believe there is simply no justification to believe it.

Do you believe in Evolution?

 

[Foxfyre]

sealybobo I am referring to your Post #454 so we don't keep quoting and requoting all that growing wall of text.

The Republicans have been a bit wiser than the Democrats on this I think, but no less timid about doing what needs to be done.

But in the big picture, I think we cannot expect people who have been taught, trained, bullied, and conditioned not to try to, or those hooked on drugs or booze, to clean up their act overnight.

But we need leaders, especially black leaders, who will start instilling in the oppressed communities a new mindset:

1. Success is staying in school and educating yourself.
2. Success is staying away from illegal substances and activities.
3. Success is cleaning yourself up, dressing appropriately, and taking a McJob or whatever you can get to develop a work ethic, experience, references, skill sets so that you can qualify for better jobs.
4. Success is talking, thinking, and behaving like successful people talk, think, and behave.
5. Success is getting married to a decent person with good values before having kids, and both parents taking responsibility for those kids.

and most importantly,

6. Success is knowing that doing this is not 'acting white' or 'sucking up'. It is being an American with courage and self respect and wisdom.

It won't happen overnight. But with effort from responsible leaders, both black and white, I think winning hearts and minds to see the real solution is doable.

 

[Tank]

Sounds like you're training a pet