Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[P F Tinmore]

Several wars have been fought between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Israeli military superiority resulted in the capture of land from its Arab neighbors.

Please explain.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Arab Reporters for Investigative Journalism (ARIJ) issued a scathing report about routine torture by multiple Palestinian Authority security services of critics of the regime.
They admit that they are probably underreporting the problem.

They investigated 250 out of more than 2600 arbitrary arrests of Palestinians between 2015 and mid-2021. They were all for either political activity, criticism of the Abbas regime or participation in protests.



61% of the detainees were tortured, including beatings, deprivation of food, deprivation of toilets, and sleep deprivation.

One victim said, "I was subjected to falanga; they whipped my feet with a plastic tube or hose. This happened four times. After the beating, the interrogator would force me to walk in the corridor in front of the investigation office and run barefoot for ten minutes. They tied my hands in the back and threw the rope over the iron door and pulled hard until my body arched forward. The rope was tied to the iron door from behind, and they covered my head with a hood."

The report exposes cases where detainees are kept in prison even after posting bail, sometimes for months and with multiple payments.

(full article online )

Meanwhile, a report about Palestinian torture of political prisoners doesn't get any coverage

Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

PA security forces are vetted, trained, and paid by the US.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinians have been (for more than two decades) trying to get the Israeli courts to give the attention they believe this issue deserves and put an end to the forcible displacement of Palestinians from their homes everywhere in the disputed territories. However, this would pry open the flood gates for a string of cases involving the equitable settlement for personal holding losses, compensation for real property incurred, and reasonable penalties for the suffering imposed upon non-Jewish families.

Indeed.

 

[rylah]

PA security forces are vetted, trained, and paid by the US.

Were you told that in funny farm?

 

[rylah]

Indeed.

Indeed,
Arab supremacists can't address
a single fact contradicting their delusions.

So what's your alternative now,
playing a Jihadi pokimon while sipping Vodka in L.A?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Several Wars and the Lost Territory
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

PREFACE: There is a huge difference between "frank and "open" discussions → and that of the → "deceptive-serpentine and tortured truths, twisting reality, winding around the facts" that characterized the manner in which the Arab Palestinians relate to the truth. Mr Purpura is not trying to camouflage an arealy hidden agenda; but, rather calls it as he sees it.

Several wars have been fought between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Israeli military superiority resulted in the capture of land from its Arab neighbors.

SOURCE: Terrorism and Homeland Security, Author: Philip P. Purpura, formerly the Coordinator of the Security for Houses of Worship Project in South Carolina,

Please explain.

(COMMENT)

Mr Purura is not trying to dazzle anyone with his knowledge of political-military (POL-MIL) tactics. He is not trying to avoid the nuance that there is really no difference between 50 years of sovereignty and 50 years of occupation when there is no reasonable expectation that effective control will be released. He is just being candid because he has no interest in the outcome of the conflict or the technical differences the POL-MIL Community makes between the status of the two. Relative to Mr Purura (and most of the people who think along those same lines) and all practical purposes, the POL-MIL status is the same.

Mr Purura published his work at a time in 2013 when 15 rocket attacks (indiscriminate fire) 18 mortar attacks (indirect targetable fire) the purpose of such acts being to intimidate a population and to compel a functioning government is an open terrorist strategy → holding peace for Ransome.

Over the last 100 years, the Arab Palestinians have had no governmental leadership over the territory in dispute except for the Gaza Strip and Area "A." Plane talk says that is not territory the Arab Palestinians have had control and leadership, nor can ever claim as theirs. The West Bank was last under the sovereignty of Jordan. That was not the control or leadership by the Arab Palestinians.

The last sovereign power over the West Bank, abandon its ties to the West Bank leaving it in the sole hands of the Israelis.

The Arab Palestinians had no control to start with. The Arab Palestinians had no functioning government in place. And so, the Arab Palestinians did not successfully defend the territory.

Every now and then, Mahmoud Abbas holds up the map that shows the shrinkage of Arab Palestinian Territory. What it actually shows territory they never held sovereignty over.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Arab Palestinians had no control to start with. The Arab Palestinians had no functioning government in place. And so, the Arab Palestinians did not successfully defend the territory.

Article 4​

States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.

Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States - The Faculty of Law

Read this story on the University of Oslo's website.

www.jus.uio.no

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.

And because the state of Palestine never existed........

 

[Sixties Fan]

On January 29, 2022, the Palestinian Embassy in Warsaw, Poland held a memorial ceremony marking the first anniversary of the death of Khalil Nazzal, who had been the secretary of Fatah's Poland branch. In attendance were Arab ambassadors, representatives of the Palestinian community, and representatives of the local Fatah branch, along with relatives of Nazzal.

At the ceremony, Palestinian Ambassador to Poland Mahmoud Khalifa posthumously awarded a "medal of excellence" on behalf of Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas to Nazzal's widow Dr. Najwa Abu Yasin, "as a mark of appreciation for his national and professional path, for his efforts in the service of our people and the Palestinian communities of Europe, and in appreciation of his role in strengthening Palestine-Poland relations." Khalifa also highlighted Nazzal's "national stature," calling him "a pioneer among the protectors of the Right of Return."

In February 2020, MEMRI published a translation of excerpts from an article by Nazzal that appeared in the PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida in January of that year, in which he stated that that Israel "inflates" the number of victims of the Holocaust in order to "blackmail the world and force it to accept" its policy. Israel, he said, had unjustly appropriated the suffering of the Jews in the Holocaust, and even exploited it, to justify its injustice of the Nakba against the Palestinian people.

(full article online)

Palestinian Authority (PA) President Abbas Awards Posthumous Medal To Fatah Official Khalil Nazzal, Who Accused Israel Of Inflating Numbers Of Holocaust Victims To Justify Its Crimes

On January 29, 2022, the Palestinian Embassy in Warsaw, Poland held a memorial ceremony marking the first anniversary of the death of Khalil Nazzal, who had been the secretary of Fatah's Poland branch. In attendance were Arab ambassadors, representatives of the Palestinian community, and...

www.memri.org

 

[Sixties Fan]

(Satire)
(If only more people who know the truth would tell the truth)

Ramallah, February 1 – Nice to meet you all! My name is Mahmoud, and my favorite pastime involves assuming the trappings of an ancient people with unique cultural ties to this land, when in fact the vast majority of my would-be nation boasts ancestry with little connection to this geographical entity. But it’s fun to pretend!

If you like, you may call me Abu Mazen – “father of Mazen.” I had a son, unfortunately deceased, and that kind of honorific developed in Arab culture long ago. You know, the people who swept out of the Arabian Peninsula in the seventh, eighth, and ninth centuries of the Common Era and conquered vast territory, colonizing it all up the wazoo and imposing Islam and the Arabic language wherever they went. Still, I have a good time playing make-believe with my people’s indigeneity to “Palestine,” a term even we Arabs and Muslims didn’t use to refer to the Holy Land until the twentieth century. It’s a foreign term – but that’s OK, because we’re just pretending!

Sometimes, though, we pretend a little too hard, and convince even ourselves that the pretense reflects reality, and that’s when we get into all sorts of trouble. Our make-believe is so compelling that we don’t even believe the real indigenous people when they claim ancient attachment to the land! We get violent and throw tantrums and make tons and tons of noise. Mine! All mine! You can’t have any! Go away!

That worked a little bit, but they kept coming anyway, even when powerful forces such as the British Empire stopped them from coming in large numbers while the Germans and their local collaborators tried to get rid of those pesky folks. By that time we’d thoroughly convinced enough people that we didn’t need to share. But the trouble continued! It turns out those other people, the actual indigenous people, felt it so important to reassert their belonging to, and in, the land, that they didn’t stop trying to rebuild their own society here after thousands of years of exile even while we attacked them, killed their children, burned down their communities, and just generally behaved like the spoiled children we’d become. Mine!

This game is so addictive, though. It’s brought us only misery, but we can’t help it. It was bad enough in 1948 that we and our strong buddies from all around failed to push those other people into the sea, as promised, but lost control of even more territory; in 1967, after years of continued attacks against them, we lost even bigger.

And you know what? We’re going to keep doing this, because it’s just so much fun to cosplay.

Also it helps us take our minds off the shame of having nothing positive at all to contribute to culture or history. But mostly the fun thing.

My Name Is Mahmoud, And I Like To Cosplay As Indigenous - PreOccupied Territory

by Mahmoud Abbas, President, Palestinian National Authority; Chairman, Fatah; Chairman, Palestine Liberation Organization Ramallah, February 1 - Nice to meet you all! My name is Mahmoud, and my favorite pastime involves assuming the trappings of an ancient people with unique cultural ties to...

www.preoccupiedterritory.com

 

[P F Tinmore]

And because the state of Palestine never existed........

Link?

Of course not.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Link?

Of course not.

You're free to prove me wrong.......

 

[Hollie]

Article 4​

States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.

Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States - The Faculty of Law

Read this story on the University of Oslo's website.

www.jus.uio.no

Back we go to your hilarious screeching about the Treaty of Lausanne inventing the ''state of pally'land''.

 

[Hollie]

Link?

Of course not.

If you believe the Treaty of Lausanne invented the ''state of pally'land'', post the citation.

Link?

Of course not.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Judicial Equality
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

PREFACE: I am NOT a lawyer. I do NOT practice law.

Humm! No one challenged Judicial equality - Relative to the territories in dispute → in the commentaries back to 1 November 2021 (3 months) and Mindful's Posting # 21000.
.
Article 4 of the Montevideo Convention applied to functioning states. So that citation, while useless, has some value to the principle that there is some mutual benefit (supporting the Rule of Law), especially privileges granted by one country to another (the idea of Reciprocity).

It should be noted that no real effort was made, by the Arab Palestinians, to make a determination on what systems of law were in play. The Jordanian Military Governor made the decision (24 May 1948) and ordered that for legal stability of the West Bank and Jerusalem, all laws and regulations that were in force on 15 May 1948 (Israeli Independence Day) would remain in force unless changed by the Military Governor.
___________________________
Civilian Judicial System in the West Bank and Gaza : Present and Future • © Copyright, International Commission of Jurists, 1994, Geneva

l The Arab Palestinians had no control to start with. The Arab Palestinians had no functioning government in place. And so, the Arab Palestinians did not successfully defend the territory.

Article 4​

States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.

(COMMENT)

I will skip to the big facts... The International Court of Justice (ICJ) and the Centre for the Independence of Judges and Lawyers (CIJL) did not become involved in 1993 and the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) sent a Diplomatic Mission to the Occupied
Territories in dispute. In examining the period between 1952 and 1967, the ICJ and the CIJL were quite impressed by the development and progress made under Jordanian rule; even though the integration of new laws and legal systems drifted more and more in the direction of the continental models of Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon.º
________________________________________________
º These Arab Models Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon were not the most stable governments for the Arab Palestinians to pattern themselves after. Israel turned out to become the most developed nation in the region as well as the most stable.

(THE IMPORTANT PIECE)

In my studies, I was struck by the fact that both the ICJ and the CIJL agreed that the ICJ maintained that the West Bank East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip are governed by the provisions of the 1907 Hague Convention and the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV). In our opinion, these standards continue to apply, even after the signing of the Israeli/Palestinian Accords on 13 September 1993, in matters which are not transferred to the Palestinians. These were NOT jurisprudence that the Atab Palestinians contributed to in any significant way.

The GCIV establishes that some of its provisions continue to apply for the duration, as long as the Israelis exercise and maintain the functions of government.

However, the Israelis, may NOT change laws, even though they maintain the functions of government. The ICJ and the CIJL made it clear:

"The main principle under international law governing laws and courts during occupation is that the occupier is not the sovereign of the territory[. Thus,] he has no right to make changes in the laws, or in the administration, other than those which are temporarily necessitated by his interest in the maintenance and safety of his army and the realization of the purpose of the war. On the contrary, he has the duty of administering the country according to the existing laws and the existing rules of administration."ª
_________________________________
ª 2 Oppenheim’s International Law pp 437 (Lauterpacht ed., 7th ed. 1952).
Civilian Judicial System in the West Bank and Gaza : Present and Future pp 20

(∑)

While I do not think this is of any importance to the discussion at hand, I thought it was important to explain why I brushed it out of hand, as having no consequence.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Judicial Equality
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

PREFACE: I am NOT a lawyer. I do NOT practice law.

Humm! No one challenged Judicial equality - Relative to the territories in dispute → in the commentaries back to 1 November 2021 (3 months) and Mindful's Posting # 21000.
.
Article 4 of the Montevideo Convention applied to functioning states. So that citation, while useless, has some value to the principle that there is some mutual benefit (supporting the Rule of Law), especially privileges granted by one country to another (the idea of Reciprocity).

It should be noted that no real effort was made, by the Arab Palestinians, to make a determination on what systems of law were in play. The Jordanian Military Governor made the decision (24 May 1948) and ordered that for legal stability of the West Bank and Jerusalem, all laws and regulations that were in force on 15 May 1948 (Israeli Independence Day) would remain in force unless changed by the Military Governor.
___________________________
Civilian Judicial System in the West Bank and Gaza : Present and Future • © Copyright, International Commission of Jurists, 1994, Geneva


(COMMENT)

I will skip to the big facts... The International Court of Justice (ICJ) and the Centre for the Independence of Judges and Lawyers (CIJL) did not become involved in 1993 and the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) sent a Diplomatic Mission to the Occupied
Territories in dispute. In examining the period between 1952 and 1967, the ICJ and the CIJL were quite impressed by the development and progress made under Jordanian rule; even though the integration of new laws and legal systems drifted more and more in the direction of the continental models of Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon.º
________________________________________________
º These Arab Models Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon were not the most stable governments for the Arab Palestinians to pattern themselves after. Israel turned out to become the most developed nation in the region as well as the most stable.

(THE IMPORTANT PIECE)

In my studies, I was struck by the fact that both the ICJ and the CIJL agreed that the ICJ maintained that the West Bank East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip are governed by the provisions of the 1907 Hague Convention and the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV). In our opinion, these standards continue to apply, even after the signing of the Israeli/Palestinian Accords on 13 September 1993, in matters which are not transferred to the Palestinians. These were NOT jurisprudence that the Atab Palestinians contributed to in any significant way.

The GCIV establishes that some of its provisions continue to apply for the duration, as long as the Israelis exercise and maintain the functions of government.

However, the Israelis, may NOT change laws, even though they maintain the functions of government. The ICJ and the CIJL made it clear:

"The main principle under international law governing laws and courts during occupation is that the occupier is not the sovereign of the territory[. Thus,] he has no right to make changes in the laws, or in the administration, other than those which are temporarily necessitated by his interest in the maintenance and safety of his army and the realization of the purpose of the war. On the contrary, he has the duty of administering the country according to the existing laws and the existing rules of administration."ª
_________________________________
ª 2 Oppenheim’s International Law pp 437 (Lauterpacht ed., 7th ed. 1952).
Civilian Judicial System in the West Bank and Gaza : Present and Future pp 20

(∑)

While I do not think this is of any importance to the discussion at hand, I thought it was important to explain why I brushed it out of hand, as having no consequence.

Most Respectfully,
R

RoccoR said: l The Arab Palestinians had no control to start with. The Arab Palestinians had no functioning government in place. And so, the Arab Palestinians did not successfully defend the territory.

P F Tinmore said:

Article 4States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.

You say that because Palestinians do not have guns they have no rights.

That is not what the law says.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You're free to prove me wrong.......

You said it, you prove it.

You are just ducking.

 

[Hollie]

For me, Islamic terrorist (pally) reconciliation means the two tribes will eventually need to finish the civil war they started when Israel withdrew from Gaza. Basically, a continuation of the 1,400 year long internecine war that divides the Shia and Sunni.

What does supporting âPalestinian reconciliationâ really mean? | PMW Analysis

When people and organizations call for “Palestinian reconciliation”, what they are really saying is that even though Hamas openly seeks Israel's destruction and openly brags about its murderous terror, this should not prevent it from being a legitimate partner within the Palestinian Authority

palwatch.org

What does supporting “Palestinian reconciliation” really mean?​

Maurice Hirsch, Adv. and Itamar Marcus | Feb 2, 2022
The two Palestinian groups - Fatah and Hamas - which dominate Palestinian society, have constantly been at loggerheads. Hamas publicly advocates for Israel's destruction and openly uses terror as a means to forward its goal. Fatah exercises political pragmatism. To the international community Fatah claims to have rejected terror, while to its own people it honors terrorists, rewards them financially, and celebrates the murder of Israelis. To the international community Fatah claims to have accepted Israel's existence, but to its own people and children it regularly reminds them that its goal is elimination of Israel.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Judicial Equality
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You say that because Palestinians do not have guns they have no rights.

That is not what the law says.

(COMMENT)

You say this like → I never give you a citation to work with.

In this accusation, which particular "law" am I contradicting? If I am wrong, I will acknowledge that fact.
.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hollie]

You say that because Palestinians do not have guns they have no rights.

That is not what the law says.

Did you really think that response made sense?