Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[José]

The problem with you is that you live in the past. It's not 1948 anymore.​

The only one living in the past is you...

You're living in 1750 when there was absolutely no arab opposition to Israel.

In 2019, just like in 1948, the palestinian society almost unanimously reject the state of Israel despite the polls horrendously misinterpreted by Coyote.

Today, just like 72 years ago, they obviously don't have the power to do anything about Israel's existence except the "power" to refuse to build a normal, functional palestinian state, the "power" to continue to reject Israel's legitimacy.

As the germans say:

Die gedanken sind frei.

Thoughts are free.

 

[toomuchtime_]

There is always increased support for attacks against Israelis which is why a two state solution is no feasible.

Well, there has to be either 2 fully independent states, or one state, Israel, with everyone being equal citizens. The status quo is untenable for the long haul.

Since neither a two state or one state "solution" is viable, the status quo, more or less, is the only viable solution. While you may not think the status quo is desirable for the long haul, there is no reason to think it is not tenable.

What is the problem that must be resolved?

That's a surprisingly good question coming from you. According to the Palestinians, the EU, the UN, the Democratic Party, the problem is land, the land the so called Palestinians want to control, but according to Israelis, sensible Americans and others around the world, the problem is peace and security. Since there is no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel, there is no possibility that there can be a Palestinian state.

So you think the people being attacked should offer security?

Of course the Palestinians are not being attacked. They are not victims, they are failed aggressors.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

There is a whole lot one can say in regards to the claims made in that one sentence but I'm going to keep it simple:

Is there any way - any way at all - a 2 yr old child is NOT INNOCENT?

How can you possibly justify the targeting and killing of a CHILD?

I think I know the answer - you will blame the parents, the government, etc. But that is a diversion.

I want to know what a child can possibly have done to justify murder.

The Israelis choose to raise their families in Israel's war zone. They should have the responsibility to protect them. Israel has put its war zone in Palestine. The Palestinians are not responsible for that.

lol There is no war zone. There are parts of many large US cities that are far more dangerous than anything the so called Palestinians can muster. There is no armed struggle, just hate crimes from the politically and socially backward Palestinian society.

So, you think hate is created in a vacuum?

In the case of the so called Palestinians, it is the product of a socially and politically backward society that was and largely is rabidly xenophobic.

Nice deflection.

 

[toomuchtime_]

There is a whole lot one can say in regards to the claims made in that one sentence but I'm going to keep it simple:

Is there any way - any way at all - a 2 yr old child is NOT INNOCENT?

How can you possibly justify the targeting and killing of a CHILD?

I think I know the answer - you will blame the parents, the government, etc. But that is a diversion.

I want to know what a child can possibly have done to justify murder.

The Israelis choose to raise their families in Israel's war zone. They should have the responsibility to protect them. Israel has put its war zone in Palestine. The Palestinians are not responsible for that.

lol There is no war zone. There are parts of many large US cities that are far more dangerous than anything the so called Palestinians can muster. There is no armed struggle, just hate crimes from the politically and socially backward Palestinian society.

So, you think hate is created in a vacuum?

In the case of the so called Palestinians, it is the product of a socially and politically backward society that was and largely is rabidly xenophobic.

Nice deflection.

It's not a deflection, but a complete answer to why the Palestinians are consumed with hate for Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Well, there has to be either 2 fully independent states, or one state, Israel, with everyone being equal citizens. The status quo is untenable for the long haul.

Since neither a two state or one state "solution" is viable, the status quo, more or less, is the only viable solution. While you may not think the status quo is desirable for the long haul, there is no reason to think it is not tenable.

What is the problem that must be resolved?

That's a surprisingly good question coming from you. According to the Palestinians, the EU, the UN, the Democratic Party, the problem is land, the land the so called Palestinians want to control, but according to Israelis, sensible Americans and others around the world, the problem is peace and security. Since there is no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel, there is no possibility that there can be a Palestinian state.

So you think the people being attacked should offer security?

Of course the Palestinians are not being attacked. They are not victims, they are failed aggressors.

So, do you think the Palestinians went to Europe and attacked the Zionists?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Since neither a two state or one state "solution" is viable, the status quo, more or less, is the only viable solution. While you may not think the status quo is desirable for the long haul, there is no reason to think it is not tenable.

What is the problem that must be resolved?

That's a surprisingly good question coming from you. According to the Palestinians, the EU, the UN, the Democratic Party, the problem is land, the land the so called Palestinians want to control, but according to Israelis, sensible Americans and others around the world, the problem is peace and security. Since there is no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel, there is no possibility that there can be a Palestinian state.

So you think the people being attacked should offer security?

Of course the Palestinians are not being attacked. They are not victims, they are failed aggressors.

So, do you think the Palestinians went to Europe and attacked the Zionists?

That's exactly what they are doing now in Europe and in the US. That's why so many European countries have had to pass laws against anti semitism and why President Trump issued an executive order against anti semitism. Everywhere the Palestinians go they carry their xenophobic hate with them.

 

[Shusha]

Don't use a broad brush. There are a few bad apples in everybody's barrel.

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

See? This isn’t “bad apple”. This is the culture.

Why do you mark this "funny", Tinmore?

Is it because you recognize you are a "bad apple" or because you recognize you have adopted the culture?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

THUS, in order to achieve peace, the war must become so costly to the Arab Palestinians --- before they will be motivated to actually pursue the obligation to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries.

After 50 years helping Israel make the war costly to Palestinians, the war finally became very costly to America as well.

Of course, Muslims would suddenly become peaceful if Israel gave land to some Muslims.

Moron.

 

[Shusha]

Don't use a broad brush. There are a few bad apples in everybody's barrel.

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

There is a whole lot one can say in regards to the claims made in that one sentence but I'm going to keep it simple:

Is there any way - any way at all - a 2 yr old child is NOT INNOCENT?

How can you possibly justify the targeting and killing of a CHILD?

I think I know the answer - you will blame the parents, the government, etc. But that is a diversion.

I want to know what a child can possibly have done to justify murder.

You don't get it, do you Coyote ? He doesn't need to justify killing a child. He doesn't need a reason.

Why? Because its part of their culture to kill children (others and their own). Killing others is permissible simply because they are others. That alone is enough to define them as enemy. And your enemies are meant to be killed.

And killing their own leads to glory in heaven. That's their ideology. And it is vile.

 

[Shusha]

I disagree - when I read Hollie's personal commentary regarding the things she posts about the Palestinians and Muslims - it's no different than the one sided attacks that Tinmore makes. It is constantly implying a unique evil to Islam and Islam alone. THAT is demonizing.

it's no different than the one sided attacks that Tinmore makes.

This is a one sided issue.

It is not. There are 2 sides to every coin. My relatives immigrated to Israel after WW2, when they had no place else to go to.

That wasn't the Palestinian's fault. Why should they get bounced for that?

There was immigration on both sides - there were also Arabs, from Egypt, Syria etc. who immigrated to the region for work. Why don't you blame them as well?

The Arabs immigrated to be part of the Palestinian society.

The Zionist "immigrants" came to take over Palestine.

There were no similarities.

See what I mean Coyote ?

The Arabs are permissible as immigrants because they are not "other". They are the same culture. They speak the same language, have the same values, practice the same religion.

Others are enemies.

 

[Coyote]

I disagree - when I read Hollie's personal commentary regarding the things she posts about the Palestinians and Muslims - it's no different than the one sided attacks that Tinmore makes. It is constantly implying a unique evil to Islam and Islam alone. THAT is demonizing.

it's no different than the one sided attacks that Tinmore makes.

This is a one sided issue.

It is not. There are 2 sides to every coin. My relatives immigrated to Israel after WW2, when they had no place else to go to.

That wasn't the Palestinian's fault. Why should they get bounced for that?

There was immigration on both sides - there were also Arabs, from Egypt, Syria etc. who immigrated to the region for work. Why don't you blame them as well?

The Arabs immigrated to be part of the Palestinian society.

The Zionist "immigrants" came to take over Palestine.

There were no similarities.

Oh bullshit. They migrated for JOBS.

If we applied the logic equally - Jews immigrated to become part of the native Jewish society - in fact they originally settled in established Jewish communities. There is no difference except different standards being applied.

 

[Coyote]

Don't use a broad brush. There are a few bad apples in everybody's barrel.

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

There is a whole lot one can say in regards to the claims made in that one sentence but I'm going to keep it simple:

Is there any way - any way at all - a 2 yr old child is NOT INNOCENT?

How can you possibly justify the targeting and killing of a CHILD?

I think I know the answer - you will blame the parents, the government, etc. But that is a diversion.

I want to know what a child can possibly have done to justify murder.

The Israelis choose to raise their families in Israel's war zone. They should have the responsibility to protect them. Israel has put its war zone in Palestine. The Palestinians are not responsible for that.

That sidesteps the question - and you fail to directly answer it every time it is act.

What can a child have done that possibly justifies targeting it and murdering it? It's a pretty straight forward question, it isn't about "who is to blame" it's about the children who are targeted and killed.

 

[Shusha]

Apparently. I've been chewed out for only saying bad things about Israel (that didn't bother you?).

I believe you've been called out for internal inconsistency in claiming to be balanced in your approach, when you actually tend to post about Israel in a negative light.

I believe you are wrong in this. I've been called out for "always" demonizing Israel (not by you I might add).

Like Tinmore - it tends to be very one sided (but that only bothers you when Tinmore does it?).

I have no problem with anyone being one-sided. Kinda the nature of a discussion board on a contentious topic such as this one. The problem I have with Tinmore is not his one-sidedness. Its his vile views about the Jewish people -- you know, like claiming that it is morally and legally permissible to target and murder Jewish children.

When you imply or claim vile things about an entire group as a group, it's well - vile.

If a group adopts a vile ideology, then it can be legitimately called a vile group.

See what I mean Shusha ?

I agree with admonit .

If a group adopts a vile ideology, then it can legitimately be called a vile group. Its the ideology that is the problem. Not the people.

 

[Coyote]

This is a one sided issue.

It is not. There are 2 sides to every coin. My relatives immigrated to Israel after WW2, when they had no place else to go to.

That wasn't the Palestinian's fault. Why should they get bounced for that?

There was immigration on both sides - there were also Arabs, from Egypt, Syria etc. who immigrated to the region for work. Why don't you blame them as well?

The Arabs immigrated to be part of the Palestinian society.

The Zionist "immigrants" came to take over Palestine.

There were no similarities.

See what I mean Coyote ?

The Arabs are permissible as immigrants because they are not "other". They are the same culture. They speak the same language, have the same values, practice the same religion.

Others are enemies.

Agree...despite the fact Jews have been in that area forever - different standards are being applied.

But, take a good look at what Hollie recently posted about Muslims in response to me. It's not Palestinians and Hamas. It's ALL Muslims, it's their ideology as she perceives it.

 

[Coyote]

Apparently. I've been chewed out for only saying bad things about Israel (that didn't bother you?).

I believe you've been called out for internal inconsistency in claiming to be balanced in your approach, when you actually tend to post about Israel in a negative light.

I believe you are wrong in this. I've been called out for "always" demonizing Israel (not by you I might add).

Like Tinmore - it tends to be very one sided (but that only bothers you when Tinmore does it?).

I have no problem with anyone being one-sided. Kinda the nature of a discussion board on a contentious topic such as this one. The problem I have with Tinmore is not his one-sidedness. Its his vile views about the Jewish people -- you know, like claiming that it is morally and legally permissible to target and murder Jewish children.

When you imply or claim vile things about an entire group as a group, it's well - vile.

If a group adopts a vile ideology, then it can be legitimately called a vile group.

See what I mean Shusha ?

I agree with admonit .

If a group adopts a vile ideology, then it can legitimately be called a vile group. Its the ideology that is the problem. Not the people.

So, Adomit feels Muslims have a vile ideology (unless he is only referring to terrorist extremists and that wasn't the impression I got) - they there fore, in entirety, are a vile group? There is no difference between that and Tinmore who seems to feel all Jews a vile. None.

 

[Shusha]

Interesting what polls of Palestinians have to say, I find this site interesting: Public Opinion Poll No (73) | PCPSR

2 September 2019


A few points:

Findings of the third quarter of 2019 show an overwhelming majority, reaching about three quarters, dissatisfied with the performance of the PA and the political factions in their response to the Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in Wadi al Hommos, near Jerusalem. The majority views the response of president Abbas to the demolition—by declaring that the PA is stopping its implementation of the agreements with Israel— as inappropriate. Indeed, an overwhelming majority, exceeding three quarters of the public, believes that Abbas’ decision is merely a media stunt aiming at absorbing public anger with the PA leadership over its failure to prevent Israel from carrying out that demolition. Furthermore, public anger with the PA is probably driven by the belief of more than 80% that the Palestinian leadership will not implement the decision to stop implementing the agreements with Israel.

In domestic matters, findings show that the overwhelming majority of the public views “honor killing” of women as a heinous crime that must be punished severely. Only 10% think that this type of crimes is understandable and punishment should thereby be reduced. By contrast, findings show that almost half of the public, much more in the Gaza Strip, believes human beings can be possessed by Jinn or demons while a slightly smaller percentage believes this to be a superstition.

In foreign affairs, findings show that the largest percentage of the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank, does not view Iran as a friend or an ally of the Palestinians. Yet, a majority, in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, believes that if war breaks out between Iran and Israel, the former would be able to defeat the latter, as Iran is believed to have a stronger military force.

In light of prime minister Netanyahu’s statement announcing his intentions to annex the Jordan Valley, findings show a significant increase in the percentage of those who believe that the two-state solution is no longer feasible or practical. As in the past, feasibility is linked to support for the two-state solution. Findings show a significant decline in support for that solution accompanied by an increased support for armed attacks against Israelis.

Positive evaluation of conditions in the Gaza Strip stands at 8% and positive evaluation of conditions in the West Bank stands at 22%. But perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stands at 63% and in the West Bank at 52%. Three months ago, perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stood at 67% and in the West Bank at 59%. 31% of the public say they want to emigrate due to political, security, and economic conditions. The percentage rises in the Gaza Strip to 41% and declines in the West Bank to 24%

Only 36% of the West Bankers say that people can criticize the authority in their area without fear and 59% say that they cannot. Three months ago, 57% of West Bankers said they could not criticize the PA in the West Bank without fear. In the Gaza Strip, 43% say that people in the Gaza Strip can criticize Hamas authority without fear and 53% say they cannot. Perception of corruption in PA institutions stands at 80% while perception of corruption in the institutions controlled by Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands at 65%.​

Interesting what you left out in your post, from the link.

That's the same poll which reveals that 80% of Gazans support planting bombs to blow up innocent Israeli children.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

The problem with you is that you live in the past. It's not 1948 anymore.​

The only one living in the past is you...

You're living in 1750 when there was absolutely no arab opposition to Israel.

In 2019, just like in 1948, the palestinian society almost unanimously reject the state of Israel despite the polls horrendously misinterpreted by Coyote.

Today, just like 72 years ago, they obviously don't have the power to do anything about Israel's existence except the "power" to refuse to build a normal, functional palestinian state, the "power" to continue to reject Israel's legitimacy.

As the germans say:

Die gedanken sind frei.

Thoughts are free.

1) I don't understand your post at all.

2) I never wrote these words.

3) Why do you always put up my avatar?

P.S. I mean that I never wrote the words which are below my avatar. Why don't you say in plain English what you're getting at?

 

[Shusha]

These are the Peaceful Inner Strugglers who have permanently dropped anchor in the seventh century and who are looking toward ways to expand the fascistic infliction of suffering and mass murder / suicide into the illusion of a pious man being granted a noble martyr's death: Hey, it's your delusion—have at it. The reality is, however, that Islamic killers live and thrive off of the suffering of everyday, decent humans. They find a religious duty in causing bloodshed. They see God's design in destruction and suffering. They feed on inculcating hatred and causing the agony of others. You may think that worldview is holy, but I happen to know that it's vile.

There are many many Palestinians who just want a decent life for themselves and their families and see nothing coming from leadership, corruption, and constant threats of violence from Israel. Infrastructure is repeatedly targeted and destroyed. Embargos place severe restrictions on how they live. Many of the people massing at the border fence aren't "Islamic terrorists" but just plain fed up and desperate people. People who are sick and tired of seeing their agriculture destroyed, children assaulted by stone throwing settlers and land taken.

Your response here absolutely REEKS of "its all the Jews fault".

"If only the Jews would stop attacking the poor, innocent Arabs so that the Arabs could just have a decent life for themselves, then everything would be rainbows and unicorns."

You pretend that the culture of violence and the ideology of mass murder and suicide is nothing but a response to Jewish "evil", as if the "Jews made them do it".

Tinmore couldn't have said it better.

 

[Coyote]

Don't use a broad brush. There are a few bad apples in everybody's barrel.

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

There is a whole lot one can say in regards to the claims made in that one sentence but I'm going to keep it simple:

Is there any way - any way at all - a 2 yr old child is NOT INNOCENT?

How can you possibly justify the targeting and killing of a CHILD?

I think I know the answer - you will blame the parents, the government, etc. But that is a diversion.

I want to know what a child can possibly have done to justify murder.

You don't get it, do you Coyote ? He doesn't need to justify killing a child. He doesn't need a reason.

Why? Because its part of their culture to kill children (others and their own). Killing others is permissible simply because they are others. That alone is enough to define them as enemy. And your enemies are meant to be killed.

And killing their own leads to glory in heaven. That's their ideology. And it is vile.

Who is "They"? And do they really believe that? That's what the pro-Israel media keeps telling us - but what do the Palestinians by and large think that they should be lumped en masse into a "vile ideology"? If you look at polls - there are some disturbing trends, and there are some interesting trends and there seem to be some conflicting views:

The Itmamar massacre was horrific - and, a disturbingly large number (but my no means a majority felt it was justified: 32%
Poll: One-third of Palestinians support Itamar massacre

That was 2011.

2019 - after another murder Palestinian Poll: 61 Percent Applaud the Murder of Israeli Teen

According to a survey released by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR), 61% of Palestinian Arabs approved of that terrorist bombing on an innocent Israeli family ‘guilty’ of touring the Biblical Land of Israel. The breakdown included 49% of Palestinians who live in Judea and Samaria and 80% of Gazans who supported Rina’s murder.

Among participants in the poll, 37% were said to have favored terrorism, in general, 32% preferred a peace deal, and 10% said the best way forward would be by “waging non-violent resistance.”​

Poll: Majority of Young Palestinians Don’t Believe in ‘Permanent Peace’

A poll from the Palestine Center for Public Opinion (PCPO) found that a majority of Palestinians between the ages of 18 and 30 living in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip reject “permanent peace” with Israel.
According to The Washington Institute think-tank, the PCPO reached out to 1,000 Palestinians living in both the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The results of the June and July polls, released on Sept. 6, note that 34 percent of Palestinians between the ages of 18 and 30 in the West Bank believed that a two-state solution should end the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Thirty-eight percent of those in Gaza also believed in a two-state solution. Among Palestinians older than 30, 25 percent in the West Bank said the conflict should end with a two-state solution as did 46 percent in Gaza.

The poll also listed a series of political priorities for the Palestinians; 50 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza said they “prioritize internal political reform” such as “making our government more effective and less corrupt” instead of engaging in acts of “’resistance’ against Israel.” That number was “noticeably lower” among Palestinians older than 30, as 35 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank, as well as 38 percent Gaza, had such priorities, per the Washington Institute.

Additionally, 49 percent of 18 to 30-year-old Palestinians in the West Bank said they agreed with the statement that the Palestinian Authority should cease payments to terrorists that murder Israelis, which the Washington Institute described as a “shockingly high” number.​

In addition - they have suffered brutality from the Israeli's, and no - I am not saying it is totally unwarranted but it shapes perceptions.

 

[Shusha]

So, the dynamics at play in the actions of Islamic terrorists in a disgusting drama where children are used as war material are as follows: The terrorist thugs in the PA / Hamas know that Israelis cherish life, especially that of a child. They know that for Israelis, the first instinct is to trust kids, therefore increasing the chances of a kid being able to smuggle bombs and weapons (sometimes with instructions to use them) through Israeli checkpoints. They exploit the warped innocence of these young people, who are raised to hold up death and murder as lofty ideals. And for these vile people, the prospects of possibly murdering Israelis outweighs putting a kid's life in danger by placing him or her in close proximity to high explosives.

But are all Palestinian children raised to hold death and murder as lofty ideals? Most? When I've read interviews with kids, a good many aspire to be doctors, lawyers, to be able to help their people. When there are pictures of "Jihadi camps" it seems to be the same old pictures recycled. I don't doubt they exist but are they that prevalent? Again - no one examines that and no one examines the how people really feel about issues.

This is where I am frustrated. I am frustrated (and frankly, angry) when people insist to Jews that Jews are really just imagining things when they see a vile ideology, especially a vile ideology directed at Jews.

"Oh its just a few bad apples. Its not like children are REALLY indoctrinated and exploited."