Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[Coyote]

Apparently. I've been chewed out for only saying bad things about Israel (that didn't bother you?).

I believe you've been called out for internal inconsistency in claiming to be balanced in your approach, when you actually tend to post about Israel in a negative light.

I believe you are wrong in this. I've been called out for "always" demonizing Israel (not by you I might add).

Like Tinmore - it tends to be very one sided (but that only bothers you when Tinmore does it?).

I have no problem with anyone being one-sided. Kinda the nature of a discussion board on a contentious topic such as this one. The problem I have with Tinmore is not his one-sidedness. Its his vile views about the Jewish people -- you know, like claiming that it is morally and legally permissible to target and murder Jewish children.

I get frustrated by it at times. My issue with Holly is not just her constant negative portrayal of Palestinians but that she makes it about Islam in entirety implying Muslims are a pedo religion etc. When you imply or claim vile things about an entire group as a group, it's well - vile.

I have my right to disagree with her just as YOU have a right to disagree with Tinmore.

Of course. So disagree with her. What you don't have the right to do, in my humble opinion, is try to silence her or shame her into posting a more "balanced" point of view. Its an odd reversal on the "Jews are uniquely and irredeemably evil" trope -- the idea that Jews have to prove that they are actually "good" by posting "good" things.

Ok. That is a valid point, but why don't you apply that when I am accused of always demonizing Israel? It does get rather old seems to be one sided imo.

My commentary seems to cause you real angst. However, I would point out that my commentary is in specific reference to the words and actions of Hamas, Fatah, PIJ, etc.[/quote]

It causes no angst. Just annoyance. No different than Tinmores predictable commentary. It's pretty much the same.

These are the Peaceful Inner Strugglers who have permanently dropped anchor in the seventh century and who are looking toward ways to expand the fascistic infliction of suffering and mass murder / suicide into the illusion of a pious man being granted a noble martyr's death: Hey, it's your delusion—have at it. The reality is, however, that Islamic killers live and thrive off of the suffering of everyday, decent humans. They find a religious duty in causing bloodshed. They see God's design in destruction and suffering. They feed on inculcating hatred and causing the agony of others. You may think that worldview is holy, but I happen to know that it's vile.

There are many many Palestinians who just want a decent life for themselves and their families and see nothing coming from leadership, corruption, and constant threats of violence from Israel. Infrastructure is repeatedly targeted and destroyed. Embargos place severe restrictions on how they live. Many of the people massing at the border fence aren't "Islamic terrorists" but just plain fed up and desperate people. People who are sick and tired of seeing their agriculture destroyed, children assaulted by stone throwing settlers and land taken.

Disclaimer - no, I'm not saying it's all wrongly taken, but some is, and more - the confusion surrounding the issue of land ownership between two very different cultures (one, essentially western the other agricultural Middle East) leads to the perception of rampant theft.

You label all those people massing angrily at the border generically as "Islamic Terrorists" when the situation is much more complex.

So, the dynamics at play in the actions of Islamic terrorists in a disgusting drama where children are used as war material are as follows: The terrorist thugs in the PA / Hamas know that Israelis cherish life, especially that of a child. They know that for Israelis, the first instinct is to trust kids, therefore increasing the chances of a kid being able to smuggle bombs and weapons (sometimes with instructions to use them) through Israeli checkpoints. They exploit the warped innocence of these young people, who are raised to hold up death and murder as lofty ideals. And for these vile people, the prospects of possibly murdering Israelis outweighs putting a kid's life in danger by placing him or her in close proximity to high explosives.

I have no disagreement with you on Hamas, the use of child soldiers, etc. But are all Palestinian children raised to hold death and murder as lofty ideals? Most? When I've read interviews with kids, a good many aspire to be doctors, lawyers, to be able to help their people. When there are pictures of "Jihadi camps" it seems to be the same old pictures recycled. I don't doubt they exist but are they that prevalent? Again - no one examines that and no one examines the how people really feel about issues. Those Palestinians that can, immigrate because life caught between constant violence, embargo and corrupt leadership is untenable. Those that can't are caught. It's not like there have been any elections.

This sort of murderous hatred is a matter of course in Islam's gee-had. There simply isn't any other movement in the world today, religious or secular, whose adherents willfully and regularly exploit children as a means to murder unarmed civilians en masse. It comes from Islam, and when I see the dreadful cradle-to-grave program of indoctrination used by Moslems to breed generation after generation of religious psychopaths, I get frustrated that people still won't acknowledge where this poisonous hatred and glorification of death comes from.

I get frustrated with the remarks you make above. Islamic Jihad is not just violence - there are a lot of meanings to what Jihad is (a little research will tell you that). In addition - exploiting children - is by FAR not unique to Muslims. Child soldiers exist around the world and represent a huge human rights violation. I'm guessing you don't follow other conflicts outside of IP, such as the Congo: a conflict that has been going on almost as long as I/P, responsible for 5.4 million deaths, horrendous rapes of women and children, and massive numbers of child soldiers and displaced people. In fact you entire paragraph there is exactly what I mean by demonizing. You are demonizing an entire world religion. Not Hamas. Religious psychopaths exist in all religions and in non-religious ideologies.

 

[Coyote]

Don't use a broad brush. There are a few bad apples in everybody's barrel.

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

There is a whole lot one can say in regards to the claims made in that one sentence but I'm going to keep it simple:

Is there any way - any way at all - a 2 yr old child is NOT INNOCENT?

How can you possibly justify the targeting and killing of a CHILD?

I think I know the answer - you will blame the parents, the government, etc. But that is a diversion.

I want to know what a child can possibly have done to justify murder.

 

[Coyote]

Apparently. I've been chewed out for only saying bad things about Israel (that didn't bother you?).

I believe you've been called out for internal inconsistency in claiming to be balanced in your approach, when you actually tend to post about Israel in a negative light.

I believe you are wrong in this. I've been called out for "always" demonizing Israel (not by you I might add).

Like Tinmore - it tends to be very one sided (but that only bothers you when Tinmore does it?).

I have no problem with anyone being one-sided. Kinda the nature of a discussion board on a contentious topic such as this one. The problem I have with Tinmore is not his one-sidedness. Its his vile views about the Jewish people -- you know, like claiming that it is morally and legally permissible to target and murder Jewish children.

When you imply or claim vile things about an entire group as a group, it's well - vile.

If a group adopts a vile ideology, then it can be legitimately called a vile group.

See what I mean Shusha ?

 

[Coyote]

Interesting what polls of Palestinians have to say, I find this site interesting: Public Opinion Poll No (73) | PCPSR

2 September 2019


A few points:

Findings of the third quarter of 2019 show an overwhelming majority, reaching about three quarters, dissatisfied with the performance of the PA and the political factions in their response to the Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in Wadi al Hommos, near Jerusalem. The majority views the response of president Abbas to the demolition—by declaring that the PA is stopping its implementation of the agreements with Israel— as inappropriate. Indeed, an overwhelming majority, exceeding three quarters of the public, believes that Abbas’ decision is merely a media stunt aiming at absorbing public anger with the PA leadership over its failure to prevent Israel from carrying out that demolition. Furthermore, public anger with the PA is probably driven by the belief of more than 80% that the Palestinian leadership will not implement the decision to stop implementing the agreements with Israel.

In domestic matters, findings show that the overwhelming majority of the public views “honor killing” of women as a heinous crime that must be punished severely. Only 10% think that this type of crimes is understandable and punishment should thereby be reduced. By contrast, findings show that almost half of the public, much more in the Gaza Strip, believes human beings can be possessed by Jinn or demons while a slightly smaller percentage believes this to be a superstition.

In foreign affairs, findings show that the largest percentage of the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank, does not view Iran as a friend or an ally of the Palestinians. Yet, a majority, in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, believes that if war breaks out between Iran and Israel, the former would be able to defeat the latter, as Iran is believed to have a stronger military force.

In light of prime minister Netanyahu’s statement announcing his intentions to annex the Jordan Valley, findings show a significant increase in the percentage of those who believe that the two-state solution is no longer feasible or practical. As in the past, feasibility is linked to support for the two-state solution. Findings show a significant decline in support for that solution accompanied by an increased support for armed attacks against Israelis.

Positive evaluation of conditions in the Gaza Strip stands at 8% and positive evaluation of conditions in the West Bank stands at 22%. But perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stands at 63% and in the West Bank at 52%. Three months ago, perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stood at 67% and in the West Bank at 59%. 31% of the public say they want to emigrate due to political, security, and economic conditions. The percentage rises in the Gaza Strip to 41% and declines in the West Bank to 24%

Only 36% of the West Bankers say that people can criticize the authority in their area without fear and 59% say that they cannot. Three months ago, 57% of West Bankers said they could not criticize the PA in the West Bank without fear. In the Gaza Strip, 43% say that people in the Gaza Strip can criticize Hamas authority without fear and 53% say they cannot. Perception of corruption in PA institutions stands at 80% while perception of corruption in the institutions controlled by Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands at 65%.​

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2​

⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The entirety of the rhetoric on the events since the unilateral Arab League intervention has been marked by the defenders of the Israelis and those of the Arab Palestinians (no matter which direction you observe the discussion) unfairly present perspectives of only one side of the "Question of Palestine." This very much includes biased interpretations and not giving a balanced picture.

"Among the rules that the parties to an armed conflict must respect when conducting hostilities, there is the prohibition of direct attacks against civilians and of indiscriminate attacks; the obligation to respect the principle of proportionality in attacks; and the obligation to take all feasible precautions so as to avoid as far as possible civilian casualties."
SOURCE: Internal conflicts or other situations of violence – what is the difference for victims?

10-12-2012 Interview

When these discussions arise, they are not often well received, especially amount the pro-Arab Palestinians.

• Fatah: Murdering children is "legitimate human struggle" - when the killer is Palestinian and victims are Israelis
By Itamar Marcus | Jul 18, 2019 •
• Palestinian Cleric Nasser Maarouf: A Martyr Killed by Jews Receives a Double Reward; Jihad must be Continued, Abandoning It Causes Discord •

• Home / Politics / Joint List MK Not Saying Killing Jews Legitimate, But Killing Jews Legitimate •
“I’m not saying it’s OK for Palestinians to resort to potentially deadly attacks against Israel under the rubric of ‘resistance to occupation,’ but it’s OK for Palestinians to target Israelis for deadly attacks as a form of legitimate resistance to occupation,” she stated this morning.

"MK Haneen Zoabi, who has in the past courted controversy for staunch anti-Israel rhetoric, sought to assuage concerns today that she had justified Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians such as the mortar attacks on Tuesday that included dozens of shells and injured 4 people,"

Do you mean like when Israel kills Palestinians by the thousands but whines about one or two by the Palestinians.?

(COMMENT)

Whether or not people understand it (and are not just emotionally influenced by it), this comparison is an evaluation of the effectiveness of the combatants in the conflict (with the underlying issue on the question of what it means to intentionally target the civilian population).

"Rule 14. Launching an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited."

Urban Dictionary: Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time. A "hip" expression of the 1960's-70's that advises you not to do something risky unless you are willing and able to accept the full weight of the consequences.​

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

(COMMENT)

Again, this is a matter of consequence...

The Arab Palestinians (through the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people) agreed to the principle that Area C full Israeli civil and security control.

At what point is the exercise of "full Israeli civil and security control" considered "illegal?"

We will see this tit for tat until Israel ends its war.

(COMMENT)

What does this imply, if not that the conflict duration is set by the Arab Palestinian condition that "Israel end the war?" This places the burden solely upon the Israelis. This is consistent with the Arab Palestinians dragging their feet on any matter of peace. The Arab Palestinians are not yet politically interested in achieving peace through the Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States. THUS, in order to achieve peace, the war must become so costly to the Arab Palestinians --- before they will be motivated to actually pursue the obligation to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries.

View attachment 294881
Most Respectfully,
R

What does this imply, if not that the conflict duration is set by the Arab Palestinian condition that "Israel end the war?" This places the burden solely upon the Israelis.

The Palestinians do not want war. They were attacked by Israel in 1948 and those attacks have never stopped.

You missed the email with that Hamas charter attachment, right?

There was no Hamas in 1948. Why do you cater in irrelevance?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2​

⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The entirety of the rhetoric on the events since the unilateral Arab League intervention has been marked by the defenders of the Israelis and those of the Arab Palestinians (no matter which direction you observe the discussion) unfairly present perspectives of only one side of the "Question of Palestine." This very much includes biased interpretations and not giving a balanced picture.

"Among the rules that the parties to an armed conflict must respect when conducting hostilities, there is the prohibition of direct attacks against civilians and of indiscriminate attacks; the obligation to respect the principle of proportionality in attacks; and the obligation to take all feasible precautions so as to avoid as far as possible civilian casualties."
SOURCE: Internal conflicts or other situations of violence – what is the difference for victims?

10-12-2012 Interview

When these discussions arise, they are not often well received, especially amount the pro-Arab Palestinians.

• Fatah: Murdering children is "legitimate human struggle" - when the killer is Palestinian and victims are Israelis
By Itamar Marcus | Jul 18, 2019 •
• Palestinian Cleric Nasser Maarouf: A Martyr Killed by Jews Receives a Double Reward; Jihad must be Continued, Abandoning It Causes Discord •

• Home / Politics / Joint List MK Not Saying Killing Jews Legitimate, But Killing Jews Legitimate •
“I’m not saying it’s OK for Palestinians to resort to potentially deadly attacks against Israel under the rubric of ‘resistance to occupation,’ but it’s OK for Palestinians to target Israelis for deadly attacks as a form of legitimate resistance to occupation,” she stated this morning.

"MK Haneen Zoabi, who has in the past courted controversy for staunch anti-Israel rhetoric, sought to assuage concerns today that she had justified Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians such as the mortar attacks on Tuesday that included dozens of shells and injured 4 people,"

Do you mean like when Israel kills Palestinians by the thousands but whines about one or two by the Palestinians.?

(COMMENT)

Whether or not people understand it (and are not just emotionally influenced by it), this comparison is an evaluation of the effectiveness of the combatants in the conflict (with the underlying issue on the question of what it means to intentionally target the civilian population).

"Rule 14. Launching an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited."

Urban Dictionary: Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time. A "hip" expression of the 1960's-70's that advises you not to do something risky unless you are willing and able to accept the full weight of the consequences.​

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

(COMMENT)

Again, this is a matter of consequence...

The Arab Palestinians (through the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people) agreed to the principle that Area C full Israeli civil and security control.

At what point is the exercise of "full Israeli civil and security control" considered "illegal?"

We will see this tit for tat until Israel ends its war.

(COMMENT)

What does this imply, if not that the conflict duration is set by the Arab Palestinian condition that "Israel end the war?" This places the burden solely upon the Israelis. This is consistent with the Arab Palestinians dragging their feet on any matter of peace. The Arab Palestinians are not yet politically interested in achieving peace through the Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States. THUS, in order to achieve peace, the war must become so costly to the Arab Palestinians --- before they will be motivated to actually pursue the obligation to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries.

View attachment 294881
Most Respectfully,
R

The Arab Palestinians are not yet politically interested in achieving peace through the Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States.

Not true. The Palestinians have wanted to end the conflict with international law and UN resolutions forever. Israel is the refusenick here.

So, what's all this fuss with islamic terroristss massing at the israeli border?

Civil society is pushing for the enforcement of the law which is not being done.

 

[P F Tinmore]

No, I don't think you do.

See, when Tinmore posts a photo with no source, no caption, no news article, no link, and often no comment, or if with a comment, a soundbyte painting Jews/Israelis (but he means Jews) as evil -- that's demonizing.

When Hollie (or Sixties) posts a news article with factual information about actual events, and then comments on the religious or cultural ideology, funding, government, international commentary, or terrorist groups which support and even drive those events -- that is not demonizing.

The one is simply assumes and illuminates the position that Jews are obviously evil. The other attempts to understand and demonstrate the causes of the events posted. You may disagree with Hollie's points that, say, UNWRA and financial aide to the Palestinians motivates them to ensure the continuation of "welfare dollars" or that there is a fundamental ideology within Islam which feeds certain aspects of the conflict, but if so make your case.

I disagree - when I read Hollie's personal commentary regarding the things she posts about the Palestinians and Muslims - it's no different than the one sided attacks that Tinmore makes. It is constantly implying a unique evil to Islam and Islam alone. THAT is demonizing.

it's no different than the one sided attacks that Tinmore makes.

This is a one sided issue.

It is not. There are 2 sides to every coin. My relatives immigrated to Israel after WW2, when they had no place else to go to.

That wasn't the Palestinian's fault. Why should they get bounced for that?

There was immigration on both sides - there were also Arabs, from Egypt, Syria etc. who immigrated to the region for work. Why don't you blame them as well?

The Arabs immigrated to be part of the Palestinian society.

The Zionist "immigrants" came to take over Palestine.

There were no similarities.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Interesting what polls of Palestinians have to say, I find this site interesting: Public Opinion Poll No (73) | PCPSR

2 September 2019


A few points:

Findings of the third quarter of 2019 show an overwhelming majority, reaching about three quarters, dissatisfied with the performance of the PA and the political factions in their response to the Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in Wadi al Hommos, near Jerusalem. The majority views the response of president Abbas to the demolition—by declaring that the PA is stopping its implementation of the agreements with Israel— as inappropriate. Indeed, an overwhelming majority, exceeding three quarters of the public, believes that Abbas’ decision is merely a media stunt aiming at absorbing public anger with the PA leadership over its failure to prevent Israel from carrying out that demolition. Furthermore, public anger with the PA is probably driven by the belief of more than 80% that the Palestinian leadership will not implement the decision to stop implementing the agreements with Israel.

In domestic matters, findings show that the overwhelming majority of the public views “honor killing” of women as a heinous crime that must be punished severely. Only 10% think that this type of crimes is understandable and punishment should thereby be reduced. By contrast, findings show that almost half of the public, much more in the Gaza Strip, believes human beings can be possessed by Jinn or demons while a slightly smaller percentage believes this to be a superstition.

In foreign affairs, findings show that the largest percentage of the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank, does not view Iran as a friend or an ally of the Palestinians. Yet, a majority, in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, believes that if war breaks out between Iran and Israel, the former would be able to defeat the latter, as Iran is believed to have a stronger military force.

In light of prime minister Netanyahu’s statement announcing his intentions to annex the Jordan Valley, findings show a significant increase in the percentage of those who believe that the two-state solution is no longer feasible or practical. As in the past, feasibility is linked to support for the two-state solution. Findings show a significant decline in support for that solution accompanied by an increased support for armed attacks against Israelis.

Positive evaluation of conditions in the Gaza Strip stands at 8% and positive evaluation of conditions in the West Bank stands at 22%. But perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stands at 63% and in the West Bank at 52%. Three months ago, perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stood at 67% and in the West Bank at 59%. 31% of the public say they want to emigrate due to political, security, and economic conditions. The percentage rises in the Gaza Strip to 41% and declines in the West Bank to 24%

Only 36% of the West Bankers say that people can criticize the authority in their area without fear and 59% say that they cannot. Three months ago, 57% of West Bankers said they could not criticize the PA in the West Bank without fear. In the Gaza Strip, 43% say that people in the Gaza Strip can criticize Hamas authority without fear and 53% say they cannot. Perception of corruption in PA institutions stands at 80% while perception of corruption in the institutions controlled by Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands at 65%.​

There is always increased support for attacks against Israelis which is why a two state solution is no feasible.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2​

⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The entirety of the rhetoric on the events since the unilateral Arab League intervention has been marked by the defenders of the Israelis and those of the Arab Palestinians (no matter which direction you observe the discussion) unfairly present perspectives of only one side of the "Question of Palestine." This very much includes biased interpretations and not giving a balanced picture.

"Among the rules that the parties to an armed conflict must respect when conducting hostilities, there is the prohibition of direct attacks against civilians and of indiscriminate attacks; the obligation to respect the principle of proportionality in attacks; and the obligation to take all feasible precautions so as to avoid as far as possible civilian casualties."
SOURCE: Internal conflicts or other situations of violence – what is the difference for victims?

10-12-2012 Interview

When these discussions arise, they are not often well received, especially amount the pro-Arab Palestinians.

• Fatah: Murdering children is "legitimate human struggle" - when the killer is Palestinian and victims are Israelis
By Itamar Marcus | Jul 18, 2019 •
• Palestinian Cleric Nasser Maarouf: A Martyr Killed by Jews Receives a Double Reward; Jihad must be Continued, Abandoning It Causes Discord •

• Home / Politics / Joint List MK Not Saying Killing Jews Legitimate, But Killing Jews Legitimate •
“I’m not saying it’s OK for Palestinians to resort to potentially deadly attacks against Israel under the rubric of ‘resistance to occupation,’ but it’s OK for Palestinians to target Israelis for deadly attacks as a form of legitimate resistance to occupation,” she stated this morning.

"MK Haneen Zoabi, who has in the past courted controversy for staunch anti-Israel rhetoric, sought to assuage concerns today that she had justified Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians such as the mortar attacks on Tuesday that included dozens of shells and injured 4 people,"

Do you mean like when Israel kills Palestinians by the thousands but whines about one or two by the Palestinians.?

(COMMENT)

Whether or not people understand it (and are not just emotionally influenced by it), this comparison is an evaluation of the effectiveness of the combatants in the conflict (with the underlying issue on the question of what it means to intentionally target the civilian population).

"Rule 14. Launching an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited."

Urban Dictionary: Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time. A "hip" expression of the 1960's-70's that advises you not to do something risky unless you are willing and able to accept the full weight of the consequences.​

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

(COMMENT)

Again, this is a matter of consequence...

The Arab Palestinians (through the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people) agreed to the principle that Area C full Israeli civil and security control.

At what point is the exercise of "full Israeli civil and security control" considered "illegal?"

We will see this tit for tat until Israel ends its war.

(COMMENT)

What does this imply, if not that the conflict duration is set by the Arab Palestinian condition that "Israel end the war?" This places the burden solely upon the Israelis. This is consistent with the Arab Palestinians dragging their feet on any matter of peace. The Arab Palestinians are not yet politically interested in achieving peace through the Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States. THUS, in order to achieve peace, the war must become so costly to the Arab Palestinians --- before they will be motivated to actually pursue the obligation to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries.

View attachment 294881
Most Respectfully,
R

What does this imply, if not that the conflict duration is set by the Arab Palestinian condition that "Israel end the war?" This places the burden solely upon the Israelis.

The Palestinians do not want war. They were attacked by Israel in 1948 and those attacks have never stopped.

You missed the email with that Hamas charter attachment, right?

There was no Hamas in 1948. Why do you cater in irrelevance?

The problem with you is that you live in the past. It's not 1948 anymore.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I disagree - when I read Hollie's personal commentary regarding the things she posts about the Palestinians and Muslims - it's no different than the one sided attacks that Tinmore makes. It is constantly implying a unique evil to Islam and Islam alone. THAT is demonizing.

it's no different than the one sided attacks that Tinmore makes.

This is a one sided issue.

It is not. There are 2 sides to every coin. My relatives immigrated to Israel after WW2, when they had no place else to go to.

That wasn't the Palestinian's fault. Why should they get bounced for that?

There was immigration on both sides - there were also Arabs, from Egypt, Syria etc. who immigrated to the region for work. Why don't you blame them as well?

The Arabs immigrated to be part of the Palestinian society.

The Zionist "immigrants" came to take over Palestine.

There were no similarities.

There was no "Palestine" at that point. It was just the name of a geographic area.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Interesting what polls of Palestinians have to say, I find this site interesting: Public Opinion Poll No (73) | PCPSR

2 September 2019


A few points:

Findings of the third quarter of 2019 show an overwhelming majority, reaching about three quarters, dissatisfied with the performance of the PA and the political factions in their response to the Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in Wadi al Hommos, near Jerusalem. The majority views the response of president Abbas to the demolition—by declaring that the PA is stopping its implementation of the agreements with Israel— as inappropriate. Indeed, an overwhelming majority, exceeding three quarters of the public, believes that Abbas’ decision is merely a media stunt aiming at absorbing public anger with the PA leadership over its failure to prevent Israel from carrying out that demolition. Furthermore, public anger with the PA is probably driven by the belief of more than 80% that the Palestinian leadership will not implement the decision to stop implementing the agreements with Israel.

In domestic matters, findings show that the overwhelming majority of the public views “honor killing” of women as a heinous crime that must be punished severely. Only 10% think that this type of crimes is understandable and punishment should thereby be reduced. By contrast, findings show that almost half of the public, much more in the Gaza Strip, believes human beings can be possessed by Jinn or demons while a slightly smaller percentage believes this to be a superstition.

In foreign affairs, findings show that the largest percentage of the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank, does not view Iran as a friend or an ally of the Palestinians. Yet, a majority, in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, believes that if war breaks out between Iran and Israel, the former would be able to defeat the latter, as Iran is believed to have a stronger military force.

In light of prime minister Netanyahu’s statement announcing his intentions to annex the Jordan Valley, findings show a significant increase in the percentage of those who believe that the two-state solution is no longer feasible or practical. As in the past, feasibility is linked to support for the two-state solution. Findings show a significant decline in support for that solution accompanied by an increased support for armed attacks against Israelis.

Positive evaluation of conditions in the Gaza Strip stands at 8% and positive evaluation of conditions in the West Bank stands at 22%. But perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stands at 63% and in the West Bank at 52%. Three months ago, perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stood at 67% and in the West Bank at 59%. 31% of the public say they want to emigrate due to political, security, and economic conditions. The percentage rises in the Gaza Strip to 41% and declines in the West Bank to 24%

Only 36% of the West Bankers say that people can criticize the authority in their area without fear and 59% say that they cannot. Three months ago, 57% of West Bankers said they could not criticize the PA in the West Bank without fear. In the Gaza Strip, 43% say that people in the Gaza Strip can criticize Hamas authority without fear and 53% say they cannot. Perception of corruption in PA institutions stands at 80% while perception of corruption in the institutions controlled by Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands at 65%.​

There is always increased support for attacks against Israelis which is why a two state solution is no feasible.

Well, there has to be either 2 fully independent states, or one state, Israel, with everyone being equal citizens. The status quo is untenable for the long haul.

 

[toomuchtime_]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2​

⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The entirety of the rhetoric on the events since the unilateral Arab League intervention has been marked by the defenders of the Israelis and those of the Arab Palestinians (no matter which direction you observe the discussion) unfairly present perspectives of only one side of the "Question of Palestine." This very much includes biased interpretations and not giving a balanced picture.

"Among the rules that the parties to an armed conflict must respect when conducting hostilities, there is the prohibition of direct attacks against civilians and of indiscriminate attacks; the obligation to respect the principle of proportionality in attacks; and the obligation to take all feasible precautions so as to avoid as far as possible civilian casualties."
SOURCE: Internal conflicts or other situations of violence – what is the difference for victims?

10-12-2012 Interview

When these discussions arise, they are not often well received, especially amount the pro-Arab Palestinians.

• Fatah: Murdering children is "legitimate human struggle" - when the killer is Palestinian and victims are Israelis
By Itamar Marcus | Jul 18, 2019 •
• Palestinian Cleric Nasser Maarouf: A Martyr Killed by Jews Receives a Double Reward; Jihad must be Continued, Abandoning It Causes Discord •

• Home / Politics / Joint List MK Not Saying Killing Jews Legitimate, But Killing Jews Legitimate •
“I’m not saying it’s OK for Palestinians to resort to potentially deadly attacks against Israel under the rubric of ‘resistance to occupation,’ but it’s OK for Palestinians to target Israelis for deadly attacks as a form of legitimate resistance to occupation,” she stated this morning.

"MK Haneen Zoabi, who has in the past courted controversy for staunch anti-Israel rhetoric, sought to assuage concerns today that she had justified Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians such as the mortar attacks on Tuesday that included dozens of shells and injured 4 people,"

Do you mean like when Israel kills Palestinians by the thousands but whines about one or two by the Palestinians.?

(COMMENT)

Whether or not people understand it (and are not just emotionally influenced by it), this comparison is an evaluation of the effectiveness of the combatants in the conflict (with the underlying issue on the question of what it means to intentionally target the civilian population).

"Rule 14. Launching an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited."

Urban Dictionary: Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time. A "hip" expression of the 1960's-70's that advises you not to do something risky unless you are willing and able to accept the full weight of the consequences.​

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

(COMMENT)

Again, this is a matter of consequence...

The Arab Palestinians (through the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people) agreed to the principle that Area C full Israeli civil and security control.

At what point is the exercise of "full Israeli civil and security control" considered "illegal?"

We will see this tit for tat until Israel ends its war.

(COMMENT)

What does this imply, if not that the conflict duration is set by the Arab Palestinian condition that "Israel end the war?" This places the burden solely upon the Israelis. This is consistent with the Arab Palestinians dragging their feet on any matter of peace. The Arab Palestinians are not yet politically interested in achieving peace through the Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States. THUS, in order to achieve peace, the war must become so costly to the Arab Palestinians --- before they will be motivated to actually pursue the obligation to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries.

View attachment 294881
Most Respectfully,
R

What does this imply, if not that the conflict duration is set by the Arab Palestinian condition that "Israel end the war?" This places the burden solely upon the Israelis.

The Palestinians do not want war. They were attacked by Israel in 1948 and those attacks have never stopped.

You missed the email with that Hamas charter attachment, right?

There was no Hamas in 1948. Why do you cater in irrelevance?

The problem with you is that you live in the past. It's not 1948 anymore.

Not only that, Tinmore's 1948 never happened, just as Tinmore's present bears no relation to reality.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Interesting what polls of Palestinians have to say, I find this site interesting: Public Opinion Poll No (73) | PCPSR

2 September 2019


A few points:

Findings of the third quarter of 2019 show an overwhelming majority, reaching about three quarters, dissatisfied with the performance of the PA and the political factions in their response to the Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in Wadi al Hommos, near Jerusalem. The majority views the response of president Abbas to the demolition—by declaring that the PA is stopping its implementation of the agreements with Israel— as inappropriate. Indeed, an overwhelming majority, exceeding three quarters of the public, believes that Abbas’ decision is merely a media stunt aiming at absorbing public anger with the PA leadership over its failure to prevent Israel from carrying out that demolition. Furthermore, public anger with the PA is probably driven by the belief of more than 80% that the Palestinian leadership will not implement the decision to stop implementing the agreements with Israel.

In domestic matters, findings show that the overwhelming majority of the public views “honor killing” of women as a heinous crime that must be punished severely. Only 10% think that this type of crimes is understandable and punishment should thereby be reduced. By contrast, findings show that almost half of the public, much more in the Gaza Strip, believes human beings can be possessed by Jinn or demons while a slightly smaller percentage believes this to be a superstition.

In foreign affairs, findings show that the largest percentage of the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank, does not view Iran as a friend or an ally of the Palestinians. Yet, a majority, in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, believes that if war breaks out between Iran and Israel, the former would be able to defeat the latter, as Iran is believed to have a stronger military force.

In light of prime minister Netanyahu’s statement announcing his intentions to annex the Jordan Valley, findings show a significant increase in the percentage of those who believe that the two-state solution is no longer feasible or practical. As in the past, feasibility is linked to support for the two-state solution. Findings show a significant decline in support for that solution accompanied by an increased support for armed attacks against Israelis.

Positive evaluation of conditions in the Gaza Strip stands at 8% and positive evaluation of conditions in the West Bank stands at 22%. But perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stands at 63% and in the West Bank at 52%. Three months ago, perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stood at 67% and in the West Bank at 59%. 31% of the public say they want to emigrate due to political, security, and economic conditions. The percentage rises in the Gaza Strip to 41% and declines in the West Bank to 24%

Only 36% of the West Bankers say that people can criticize the authority in their area without fear and 59% say that they cannot. Three months ago, 57% of West Bankers said they could not criticize the PA in the West Bank without fear. In the Gaza Strip, 43% say that people in the Gaza Strip can criticize Hamas authority without fear and 53% say they cannot. Perception of corruption in PA institutions stands at 80% while perception of corruption in the institutions controlled by Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands at 65%.​

There is always increased support for attacks against Israelis which is why a two state solution is no feasible.

Well, there has to be either 2 fully independent states, or one state, Israel, with everyone being equal citizens. The status quo is untenable for the long haul.

Since neither a two state or one state "solution" is viable, the status quo, more or less, is the only viable solution. While you may not think the status quo is desirable for the long haul, there is no reason to think it is not tenable.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Don't use a broad brush. There are a few bad apples in everybody's barrel.

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

There is a whole lot one can say in regards to the claims made in that one sentence but I'm going to keep it simple:

Is there any way - any way at all - a 2 yr old child is NOT INNOCENT?

How can you possibly justify the targeting and killing of a CHILD?

I think I know the answer - you will blame the parents, the government, etc. But that is a diversion.

I want to know what a child can possibly have done to justify murder.

The Israelis choose to raise their families in Israel's war zone. They should have the responsibility to protect them. Israel has put its war zone in Palestine. The Palestinians are not responsible for that.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Interesting what polls of Palestinians have to say, I find this site interesting: Public Opinion Poll No (73) | PCPSR

2 September 2019


A few points:

Findings of the third quarter of 2019 show an overwhelming majority, reaching about three quarters, dissatisfied with the performance of the PA and the political factions in their response to the Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in Wadi al Hommos, near Jerusalem. The majority views the response of president Abbas to the demolition—by declaring that the PA is stopping its implementation of the agreements with Israel— as inappropriate. Indeed, an overwhelming majority, exceeding three quarters of the public, believes that Abbas’ decision is merely a media stunt aiming at absorbing public anger with the PA leadership over its failure to prevent Israel from carrying out that demolition. Furthermore, public anger with the PA is probably driven by the belief of more than 80% that the Palestinian leadership will not implement the decision to stop implementing the agreements with Israel.

In domestic matters, findings show that the overwhelming majority of the public views “honor killing” of women as a heinous crime that must be punished severely. Only 10% think that this type of crimes is understandable and punishment should thereby be reduced. By contrast, findings show that almost half of the public, much more in the Gaza Strip, believes human beings can be possessed by Jinn or demons while a slightly smaller percentage believes this to be a superstition.

In foreign affairs, findings show that the largest percentage of the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank, does not view Iran as a friend or an ally of the Palestinians. Yet, a majority, in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, believes that if war breaks out between Iran and Israel, the former would be able to defeat the latter, as Iran is believed to have a stronger military force.

In light of prime minister Netanyahu’s statement announcing his intentions to annex the Jordan Valley, findings show a significant increase in the percentage of those who believe that the two-state solution is no longer feasible or practical. As in the past, feasibility is linked to support for the two-state solution. Findings show a significant decline in support for that solution accompanied by an increased support for armed attacks against Israelis.

Positive evaluation of conditions in the Gaza Strip stands at 8% and positive evaluation of conditions in the West Bank stands at 22%. But perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stands at 63% and in the West Bank at 52%. Three months ago, perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stood at 67% and in the West Bank at 59%. 31% of the public say they want to emigrate due to political, security, and economic conditions. The percentage rises in the Gaza Strip to 41% and declines in the West Bank to 24%

Only 36% of the West Bankers say that people can criticize the authority in their area without fear and 59% say that they cannot. Three months ago, 57% of West Bankers said they could not criticize the PA in the West Bank without fear. In the Gaza Strip, 43% say that people in the Gaza Strip can criticize Hamas authority without fear and 53% say they cannot. Perception of corruption in PA institutions stands at 80% while perception of corruption in the institutions controlled by Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands at 65%.​

There is always increased support for attacks against Israelis which is why a two state solution is no feasible.

Well, there has to be either 2 fully independent states, or one state, Israel, with everyone being equal citizens. The status quo is untenable for the long haul.

Since neither a two state or one state "solution" is viable, the status quo, more or less, is the only viable solution. While you may not think the status quo is desirable for the long haul, there is no reason to think it is not tenable.

What is the problem that must be resolved?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Don't use a broad brush. There are a few bad apples in everybody's barrel.

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

There is a whole lot one can say in regards to the claims made in that one sentence but I'm going to keep it simple:

Is there any way - any way at all - a 2 yr old child is NOT INNOCENT?

How can you possibly justify the targeting and killing of a CHILD?

I think I know the answer - you will blame the parents, the government, etc. But that is a diversion.

I want to know what a child can possibly have done to justify murder.

The Israelis choose to raise their families in Israel's war zone. They should have the responsibility to protect them. Israel has put its war zone in Palestine. The Palestinians are not responsible for that.

lol There is no war zone. There are parts of many large US cities that are far more dangerous than anything the so called Palestinians can muster. There is no armed struggle, just hate crimes from the politically and socially backward Palestinian society.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Don't use a broad brush. There are a few bad apples in everybody's barrel.

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

There is a whole lot one can say in regards to the claims made in that one sentence but I'm going to keep it simple:

Is there any way - any way at all - a 2 yr old child is NOT INNOCENT?

How can you possibly justify the targeting and killing of a CHILD?

I think I know the answer - you will blame the parents, the government, etc. But that is a diversion.

I want to know what a child can possibly have done to justify murder.

The Israelis choose to raise their families in Israel's war zone. They should have the responsibility to protect them. Israel has put its war zone in Palestine. The Palestinians are not responsible for that.

lol There is no war zone. There are parts of many large US cities that are far more dangerous than anything the so called Palestinians can muster. There is no armed struggle, just hate crimes from the politically and socially backward Palestinian society.

So, you think hate is created in a vacuum?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Interesting what polls of Palestinians have to say, I find this site interesting: Public Opinion Poll No (73) | PCPSR

2 September 2019


A few points:

Findings of the third quarter of 2019 show an overwhelming majority, reaching about three quarters, dissatisfied with the performance of the PA and the political factions in their response to the Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in Wadi al Hommos, near Jerusalem. The majority views the response of president Abbas to the demolition—by declaring that the PA is stopping its implementation of the agreements with Israel— as inappropriate. Indeed, an overwhelming majority, exceeding three quarters of the public, believes that Abbas’ decision is merely a media stunt aiming at absorbing public anger with the PA leadership over its failure to prevent Israel from carrying out that demolition. Furthermore, public anger with the PA is probably driven by the belief of more than 80% that the Palestinian leadership will not implement the decision to stop implementing the agreements with Israel.

In domestic matters, findings show that the overwhelming majority of the public views “honor killing” of women as a heinous crime that must be punished severely. Only 10% think that this type of crimes is understandable and punishment should thereby be reduced. By contrast, findings show that almost half of the public, much more in the Gaza Strip, believes human beings can be possessed by Jinn or demons while a slightly smaller percentage believes this to be a superstition.

In foreign affairs, findings show that the largest percentage of the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank, does not view Iran as a friend or an ally of the Palestinians. Yet, a majority, in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, believes that if war breaks out between Iran and Israel, the former would be able to defeat the latter, as Iran is believed to have a stronger military force.

In light of prime minister Netanyahu’s statement announcing his intentions to annex the Jordan Valley, findings show a significant increase in the percentage of those who believe that the two-state solution is no longer feasible or practical. As in the past, feasibility is linked to support for the two-state solution. Findings show a significant decline in support for that solution accompanied by an increased support for armed attacks against Israelis.

Positive evaluation of conditions in the Gaza Strip stands at 8% and positive evaluation of conditions in the West Bank stands at 22%. But perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stands at 63% and in the West Bank at 52%. Three months ago, perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stood at 67% and in the West Bank at 59%. 31% of the public say they want to emigrate due to political, security, and economic conditions. The percentage rises in the Gaza Strip to 41% and declines in the West Bank to 24%

Only 36% of the West Bankers say that people can criticize the authority in their area without fear and 59% say that they cannot. Three months ago, 57% of West Bankers said they could not criticize the PA in the West Bank without fear. In the Gaza Strip, 43% say that people in the Gaza Strip can criticize Hamas authority without fear and 53% say they cannot. Perception of corruption in PA institutions stands at 80% while perception of corruption in the institutions controlled by Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands at 65%.​

There is always increased support for attacks against Israelis which is why a two state solution is no feasible.

Well, there has to be either 2 fully independent states, or one state, Israel, with everyone being equal citizens. The status quo is untenable for the long haul.

Since neither a two state or one state "solution" is viable, the status quo, more or less, is the only viable solution. While you may not think the status quo is desirable for the long haul, there is no reason to think it is not tenable.

What is the problem that must be resolved?

That's a surprisingly good question coming from you. According to the Palestinians, the EU, the UN, the Democratic Party, the problem is land, the land the so called Palestinians want to control, but according to Israelis, sensible Americans and others around the world, the problem is peace and security. Since there is no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel, there is no possibility that there can be a Palestinian state.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Interesting what polls of Palestinians have to say, I find this site interesting: Public Opinion Poll No (73) | PCPSR

2 September 2019


A few points:

Findings of the third quarter of 2019 show an overwhelming majority, reaching about three quarters, dissatisfied with the performance of the PA and the political factions in their response to the Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in Wadi al Hommos, near Jerusalem. The majority views the response of president Abbas to the demolition—by declaring that the PA is stopping its implementation of the agreements with Israel— as inappropriate. Indeed, an overwhelming majority, exceeding three quarters of the public, believes that Abbas’ decision is merely a media stunt aiming at absorbing public anger with the PA leadership over its failure to prevent Israel from carrying out that demolition. Furthermore, public anger with the PA is probably driven by the belief of more than 80% that the Palestinian leadership will not implement the decision to stop implementing the agreements with Israel.

In domestic matters, findings show that the overwhelming majority of the public views “honor killing” of women as a heinous crime that must be punished severely. Only 10% think that this type of crimes is understandable and punishment should thereby be reduced. By contrast, findings show that almost half of the public, much more in the Gaza Strip, believes human beings can be possessed by Jinn or demons while a slightly smaller percentage believes this to be a superstition.

In foreign affairs, findings show that the largest percentage of the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank, does not view Iran as a friend or an ally of the Palestinians. Yet, a majority, in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, believes that if war breaks out between Iran and Israel, the former would be able to defeat the latter, as Iran is believed to have a stronger military force.

In light of prime minister Netanyahu’s statement announcing his intentions to annex the Jordan Valley, findings show a significant increase in the percentage of those who believe that the two-state solution is no longer feasible or practical. As in the past, feasibility is linked to support for the two-state solution. Findings show a significant decline in support for that solution accompanied by an increased support for armed attacks against Israelis.

Positive evaluation of conditions in the Gaza Strip stands at 8% and positive evaluation of conditions in the West Bank stands at 22%. But perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stands at 63% and in the West Bank at 52%. Three months ago, perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stood at 67% and in the West Bank at 59%. 31% of the public say they want to emigrate due to political, security, and economic conditions. The percentage rises in the Gaza Strip to 41% and declines in the West Bank to 24%

Only 36% of the West Bankers say that people can criticize the authority in their area without fear and 59% say that they cannot. Three months ago, 57% of West Bankers said they could not criticize the PA in the West Bank without fear. In the Gaza Strip, 43% say that people in the Gaza Strip can criticize Hamas authority without fear and 53% say they cannot. Perception of corruption in PA institutions stands at 80% while perception of corruption in the institutions controlled by Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands at 65%.​

There is always increased support for attacks against Israelis which is why a two state solution is no feasible.

Well, there has to be either 2 fully independent states, or one state, Israel, with everyone being equal citizens. The status quo is untenable for the long haul.

Since neither a two state or one state "solution" is viable, the status quo, more or less, is the only viable solution. While you may not think the status quo is desirable for the long haul, there is no reason to think it is not tenable.

What is the problem that must be resolved?

That's a surprisingly good question coming from you. According to the Palestinians, the EU, the UN, the Democratic Party, the problem is land, the land the so called Palestinians want to control, but according to Israelis, sensible Americans and others around the world, the problem is peace and security. Since there is no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel, there is no possibility that there can be a Palestinian state.

So you think the people being attacked should offer security?

 

[toomuchtime_]

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

There is a whole lot one can say in regards to the claims made in that one sentence but I'm going to keep it simple:

Is there any way - any way at all - a 2 yr old child is NOT INNOCENT?

How can you possibly justify the targeting and killing of a CHILD?

I think I know the answer - you will blame the parents, the government, etc. But that is a diversion.

I want to know what a child can possibly have done to justify murder.

The Israelis choose to raise their families in Israel's war zone. They should have the responsibility to protect them. Israel has put its war zone in Palestine. The Palestinians are not responsible for that.

lol There is no war zone. There are parts of many large US cities that are far more dangerous than anything the so called Palestinians can muster. There is no armed struggle, just hate crimes from the politically and socially backward Palestinian society.

So, you think hate is created in a vacuum?

In the case of the so called Palestinians, it is the product of a socially and politically backward society that was and largely is rabidly xenophobic.