Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[rylah]

Don't use a broad brush. There are a few bad apples in everybody's barrel.

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

First you incite to murder,
then whine when racist BDS-holes are banned by law.

Palestinian mentality

Then those laws bite the dust in the courts because they are based on bullshit.

Since when laws against racism and incitement to murder are bullshit?

These same laws exist in civilized nations for decades,
to protect a wide range of minorities from racist bigots like yourself.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Don't use a broad brush. There are a few bad apples in everybody's barrel.

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

First you incite to murder,
then whine when racist BDS-holes are banned by law.

Palestinian mentality

Then those laws bite the dust in the courts because they are based on bullshit.

Since when laws against racism and incitement to murder are bullshit?

These same laws exist in civilized nations for decades,
to protect a wide range of minorities from racist bigots like yourself.

That the Jihadi brides like yourself whine so much, merely shows the head on which that hat is burning, and really is music to my ears.

Israel's lackeys go to the government, shovel shit, and pass out some money. Then they get useless laws.

 

[rylah]

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

First you incite to murder,
then whine when racist BDS-holes are banned by law.

Palestinian mentality

Then those laws bite the dust in the courts because they are based on bullshit.

Since when laws against racism and incitement to murder are bullshit?

These same laws exist in civilized nations for decades,
to protect a wide range of minorities from racist bigots like yourself.

That the Jihadi brides like yourself whine so much, merely shows the head on which that hat is burning, and really is music to my ears.

Israel's lackeys go to the government, shovel shit, and pass out some money. Then they get useless laws.

Jihadi shills whining so much about these laws,
merely shows the head on which that hat is burning.

Go on that's music to my ears...

 

[Hollie]

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

First you incite to murder,
then whine when racist BDS-holes are banned by law.

Palestinian mentality

Then those laws bite the dust in the courts because they are based on bullshit.

Since when laws against racism and incitement to murder are bullshit?

These same laws exist in civilized nations for decades,
to protect a wide range of minorities from racist bigots like yourself.

That the Jihadi brides like yourself whine so much, merely shows the head on which that hat is burning, and really is music to my ears.

Israel's lackeys go to the government, shovel shit, and pass out some money. Then they get useless laws.

Link?

 

[toomuchtime_]

I look at polls also - Pew is very comprehensive, rather than looking just at Gaza. And it offers far more depth - good and bad, hopeful and disturbing.

Yes, I've read quite a few polls, and not just ones on Gaza. The Gaza number was pulled from a much more comprehensive set of polls.

Would you please acknowledge the "disturbing".

I've heard it stated this way: Not all Muslims are terrorists. Nearly all terrorists are Muslim".

And it is inaccurate at best, demonizing at worst.

Inaccurate? Demonizing? The top four terrorist organizations in the world for number of deaths caused are related to Islam. Eight of the top ten richest terrorist organizations in the world are related to Islam. The top countries for terrorist acts are related to Islam. Terrorism in the name of Islam is a big problem in the world. You can't just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.

Do you have the figures for a different religion? For comparisons sake?

According to an FBI analysis of every terrorist attack carried out int he US between 1980 and 2005, 94% of terrorist attacks carried out by someone who was not Muslim. Granted that is the US only, but if "nearly all terrorists are Muslim I'd expect to see a higher representation.

Its the US. You might want to think about how the culture of Islam is different in the US and why. (Also, I've read those reports and interestingly, as a percentage of population, its a different story).

I won't go any further on this - it's really not IP, but there is a thread I started some time back on decline of religious freedom. Feel free to participate.

I disagree. Understanding how Islam influences the I/P conflict is important.

Judaism also influences the I/P conflict, since many Jews feel that all of Eretz Yisrael is our G-d given land, and therefore it's forbidden to give up any part of it.

Some Israelis may feel that way but there is no evidence these feelings have influenced Israeli policy. In 1948, Israelis settled for the two little scraps of land the UN offered instead of the state they wanted and in the 1990's Israel offered to give up 95% of the territories for peace.

 

[Coyote]

It just happens to be Islam doing it NOW.

THANK YOU. Is there a reason why it is so hard to examine the culture of Islam as it is doing NOW?

But it isn't unique to Islam. That is the point. People label Islam as uniquely evil.

 

[Coyote]

What is interesting is that the court rejects confessions made under “torture” ... but that doesn’t apply to confessions made under “torture” by Palestinian youth.

How many of those confessions would be thrown out if they were afforded the same protections and justice as the Dumas attackers?

When Palestinian youth goes through what these Jews went through, and actually present this as defense in court, rather than just telling stories for the media, then you can judge the courts behavior or prejudice. And they do have the same support both in the Knesset and with the armies of attorneys and NGO's for every case. If there was something there would already be a case in the court.

Meantime you're trying to hold the stick by both its ends.
Implying that it's not just that not all confessions under torture are held off,
while at the same time insisting on using such a confession to accuse Jews when it fits your preconceived notions.

This sounds awfully similar to one of Rashida Tlaib's latest gems of wisdom: "Analysts need to be African Americans, not people that are not".

In other words, you guys have to decide - are you against racism or do you use it to further promote a racist agenda?

B.S. And I mean TOTAL B.S, this assumption that Palestinian kids couldn't possibly have gone through what these Jewish kids CLAIM to have gone through is so laughable...in fact, it's a total farce.

First: did Shin Bet use torture?

If YES - then YES - it is wrong.

Do we agree on that point?

If torture WAS used...then, there is the uncomfortable question. And - maybe this addresses your preconceived notions on Palestinians?

If torture was used...well shouldn't the SAME STANDARD be applied to Palestinian suspects who's confessions were coerced at the hands of the Shin Bet? Or does that only apply to Jewish kids?

Personally - I disapprove of torture all around. Period. NO exceptions.

How about you?

How can we agree on anything when I deal with facts which you have no respect for whatsoever, while you solely rely on assumptions and claims?

If you had any facts to contradict anything I said, instead of constantly deflecting,
they'd already be presented.

But you have nothing aside from sensationalist media headlines,
and stories paid for by foreign governments, that in spite serving your agenda are not enough to even stand in court.

I just know too much from what's actually going on the ground,
while seeing enough of your posting to realize that you're just another lousy enemy of both your country and my people, pathologically incapable of telling truth.

Everyone views events through their own bias. You have been quite clear in that.

An enemy of my own country? Where do you even come up with that crap?

Good day.

 

[rylah]

What is interesting is that the court rejects confessions made under “torture” ... but that doesn’t apply to confessions made under “torture” by Palestinian youth.

How many of those confessions would be thrown out if they were afforded the same protections and justice as the Dumas attackers?

When Palestinian youth goes through what these Jews went through, and actually present this as defense in court, rather than just telling stories for the media, then you can judge the courts behavior or prejudice. And they do have the same support both in the Knesset and with the armies of attorneys and NGO's for every case. If there was something there would already be a case in the court.

Meantime you're trying to hold the stick by both its ends.
Implying that it's not just that not all confessions under torture are held off,
while at the same time insisting on using such a confession to accuse Jews when it fits your preconceived notions.

This sounds awfully similar to one of Rashida Tlaib's latest gems of wisdom: "Analysts need to be African Americans, not people that are not".

In other words, you guys have to decide - are you against racism or do you use it to further promote a racist agenda?

B.S. And I mean TOTAL B.S, this assumption that Palestinian kids couldn't possibly have gone through what these Jewish kids CLAIM to have gone through is so laughable...in fact, it's a total farce.

First: did Shin Bet use torture?

If YES - then YES - it is wrong.

Do we agree on that point?

If torture WAS used...then, there is the uncomfortable question. And - maybe this addresses your preconceived notions on Palestinians?

If torture was used...well shouldn't the SAME STANDARD be applied to Palestinian suspects who's confessions were coerced at the hands of the Shin Bet? Or does that only apply to Jewish kids?

Personally - I disapprove of torture all around. Period. NO exceptions.

How about you?

How can we agree on anything when I deal with facts which you have no respect for whatsoever, while you solely rely on assumptions and claims?

If you had any facts to contradict anything I said, instead of constantly deflecting,
they'd already be presented.

But you have nothing aside from sensationalist media headlines,
and stories paid for by foreign governments, that in spite serving your agenda are not enough to even stand in court.

I just know too much from what's actually going on the ground,
while seeing enough of your posting to realize that you're just another lousy enemy of both your country and my people, pathologically incapable of telling truth.

Everyone views events through their own bias. You have been quite clear in that.

An enemy of my own country? Where do you even come up with that crap?

Good day.

Maybe you're incapable of dealing with facts.

But if you want to examine our biases let's see - my bias is natural, in favor of my country and my people, while your bias is sticking the nose into other people's business, while obsessively demonizing and knowingly lying about a tiny minority, even in conversations that have nothing to do with them.

Where do I get that you're the enemy of the US?
From always siding with its proclaimed enemies:

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Don't use a broad brush. There are a few bad apples in everybody's barrel.

A "few bad apples"?!

80% of the people of Gaza support planting IEDS to kill innocent Israelis.

That is not a "few bad apples". That is a culture of violence and dehumanization and a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

kill innocent Israelis.

Can illegal settlers living on stolen land be considered innocent?

First you incite to murder,
then whine when racist BDS-holes are banned by law.

Palestinian mentality

Then those laws bite the dust in the courts because they are based on bullshit.

Are any Jews in Israel protected persons?

 

[Hollie]

It just happens to be Islam doing it NOW.

THANK YOU. Is there a reason why it is so hard to examine the culture of Islam as it is doing NOW?

But it isn't unique to Islam. That is the point. People label Islam as uniquely evil.

Maybe it's just me but I don't resd about heavily armed groups of radical Lutherans sawing off the heads of non-believers to the droning intonation of Jesus is great.

So yes, with the uniquely evil behaviors of Moslems (the world-wide campaign of religious intolerance and to include uniquely abhorrent acts of suicide bombings, street murder, whipping, caning, bludgeoning, beheading, stoning, public hanging, women forced in to Shame Sacks, welfare payments to mass murderer, etc., etc.,), well yes, the attribute of "uniquely evil" applies to islam.

 

[Shusha]

It just happens to be Islam doing it NOW.

THANK YOU. Is there a reason why it is so hard to examine the culture of Islam as it is doing NOW?

But it isn't unique to Islam. That is the point. People label Islam as uniquely evil.

People aren’t labelling Islam as uniquely evil. I’m certainly not. (Remember, I also think there are tenets of Xtianity which are vile.)

People are arguing Islam is doing it NOW. You agree.


And....since I responded before reading Hollies post....well okay uniquely evil it is. She has a point. Though I wouldn’t argue uniquely evil so much as a unique ideology of evil which leads to a unique practice of evil.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

It just happens to be Islam doing it NOW.

THANK YOU. Is there a reason why it is so hard to examine the culture of Islam as it is doing NOW?

But it isn't unique to Islam. That is the point. People label Islam as uniquely evil.

People aren’t labelling Islam as uniquely evil. I’m certainly not. (Remember, I also think there are tenets of Xtianity which are vile.)

People are arguing Islam is doing it NOW. You agree.


And....since I responded before reading Hollies post....well okay uniquely evil it is. She has a point. Though I wouldn’t argue uniquely evil so much as a unique ideology of evil which leads to a unique practice of evil.

True. When Christians burned innocent women alive as witches, that was pure evil. But that doesn't affect us now. Islam does affect us now.

 

[Hollie]

It just happens to be Islam doing it NOW.

THANK YOU. Is there a reason why it is so hard to examine the culture of Islam as it is doing NOW?

But it isn't unique to Islam. That is the point. People label Islam as uniquely evil.

People aren’t labelling Islam as uniquely evil. I’m certainly not. (Remember, I also think there are tenets of Xtianity which are vile.)

People are arguing Islam is doing it NOW. You agree.


And....since I responded before reading Hollies post....well okay uniquely evil it is. She has a point. Though I wouldn’t argue uniquely evil so much as a unique ideology of evil which leads to a unique practice of evil.

I would propose that the only external example of Islam we have is Moslems. Therefore, I don't believe it is unfair to come to conclusions about the ideology based upon the actions of the adherents.

During the course of our daily existence, we all make judgements about the people and events that affect us. With regard to reaching conclusions about political and religious ideologies, I do make judgments. I make both assessments and judgements about the internal components and consistencies of the ideology because those ideologies and beliefs have an external result that affects many. I do judge because it's a necessary aspect of how we view the world and our place in it. Judgements are required in order to evaluate how to proceed with both things and people.

My judgement is that proceeding through life with the belief that a 7th century Arab warlord is the model of behavior for all of humanity is retrograde and harmful to me and those around me.

 

[Shusha]

It just happens to be Islam doing it NOW.

THANK YOU. Is there a reason why it is so hard to examine the culture of Islam as it is doing NOW?

But it isn't unique to Islam. That is the point. People label Islam as uniquely evil.

People aren’t labelling Islam as uniquely evil. I’m certainly not. (Remember, I also think there are tenets of Xtianity which are vile.)

People are arguing Islam is doing it NOW. You agree.


And....since I responded before reading Hollies post....well okay uniquely evil it is. She has a point. Though I wouldn’t argue uniquely evil so much as a unique ideology of evil which leads to a unique practice of evil.

True. When Christians burned innocent women alive as witches, that was pure evil. But that doesn't affect us now. Islam does affect us now.

Yes, and...since Xtian ideology hasn't changed as much as it could, the tide could roll back in. Witness the increase in attacks on Jews in America, and the rise and increased brazeness of Nazism and white supremecist groups. (Jews are the only group which, collectively, gets to be white and not-white at the same time).

 

[ForeverYoung436]

It just happens to be Islam doing it NOW.

THANK YOU. Is there a reason why it is so hard to examine the culture of Islam as it is doing NOW?

But it isn't unique to Islam. That is the point. People label Islam as uniquely evil.

People aren’t labelling Islam as uniquely evil. I’m certainly not. (Remember, I also think there are tenets of Xtianity which are vile.)

People are arguing Islam is doing it NOW. You agree.


And....since I responded before reading Hollies post....well okay uniquely evil it is. She has a point. Though I wouldn’t argue uniquely evil so much as a unique ideology of evil which leads to a unique practice of evil.

True. When Christians burned innocent women alive as witches, that was pure evil. But that doesn't affect us now. Islam does affect us now.

Yes, and...since Xtian ideology hasn't changed as much as it could, the tide could roll back in. Witness the increase in attacks on Jews in America, and the rise and increased brazeness of Nazism and white supremecist groups. (Jews are the only group which, collectively, gets to be white and not-white at the same time).

Nazism isn't Christianity. Hitler only used Christianity when it suited his cause. There's evidence that he thought of Christianity as a weak religion, and many priests and nuns suffered during the Holocaust.

 

[rylah]

“Islamized Germans”

 

[Shusha]

THANK YOU. Is there a reason why it is so hard to examine the culture of Islam as it is doing NOW?

But it isn't unique to Islam. That is the point. People label Islam as uniquely evil.

People aren’t labelling Islam as uniquely evil. I’m certainly not. (Remember, I also think there are tenets of Xtianity which are vile.)

People are arguing Islam is doing it NOW. You agree.


And....since I responded before reading Hollies post....well okay uniquely evil it is. She has a point. Though I wouldn’t argue uniquely evil so much as a unique ideology of evil which leads to a unique practice of evil.

True. When Christians burned innocent women alive as witches, that was pure evil. But that doesn't affect us now. Islam does affect us now.

Yes, and...since Xtian ideology hasn't changed as much as it could, the tide could roll back in. Witness the increase in attacks on Jews in America, and the rise and increased brazeness of Nazism and white supremecist groups. (Jews are the only group which, collectively, gets to be white and not-white at the same time).

Nazism isn't Christianity. Hitler only used Christianity when it suited his cause. There's evidence that he thought of Christianity as a weak religion, and many priests and nuns suffered during the Holocaust.

Its not divorced from Xtianity. There is underlying ideology there which lends itself, imo. Its not just Hitler, but all those who follow.

Have you ever read Constantine's Sword?

 

[Shusha]

Although, please note, I am not trying to equate Xtianity with Nazis as though they are one and the same. I'm just trying to point out that some Xtian ideology is suited to extremism.

 

[Hollie]

The Peaceful Inner Struggle


IDF Thwarts Attempt by Palestinian Terrorist to Enter Southern Israel From Hamas-Ruled Gaza

IDF Thwarts Attempt by Palestinian Terrorist to Enter Southern Israel From Hamas-Ruled Gaza

A Palestinian terrorist attempted to enter southern Israel from the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip, Dec. 17, 2019. Photo: Screenshot.

In the first incident of its kind in some time, an attempted infiltration of southern Israel by a terrorist from the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip was thwarted by the IDF on Tuesday.




Gee-had denied.

 

[Coyote]

It just happens to be Islam doing it NOW.

THANK YOU. Is there a reason why it is so hard to examine the culture of Islam as it is doing NOW?

But it isn't unique to Islam. That is the point. People label Islam as uniquely evil.

People aren’t labelling Islam as uniquely evil. I’m certainly not. (Remember, I also think there are tenets of Xtianity which are vile.)

People are arguing Islam is doing it NOW. You agree.


And....since I responded before reading Hollies post....well okay uniquely evil it is. She has a point. Though I wouldn’t argue uniquely evil so much as a unique ideology of evil which leads to a unique practice of evil.

So you are calling a world religion, encompassing many different cultures a "unique ideology of evil" with a "unique practice of evil"?

What is unique?

You can't examine world religions in a historical vacuum and claim "uniqueness".

Treatment of women - is Islam uniquely evil in how women are treated?

Hinduism:

-------------------------------
Women

Unclean and dying because of it

Banished for menstruating: the Indian women isolated while they bleed | Gagandeep Kaur

Menstrual Huts Are Illegal In Nepal. So Why Are Women Still Dying In Them?

Child marriages - even though technically illegal they are still prevalent (in Shravasti, at least a quarter of girls age 10 to 17 are married)

84% Of 12 Million Married Children Under 10 Are Hindus

According to Hindu scriptures from 400 to 100 bc - the best age for a girl to get married is between is 8 and 10.

While the British made Sati illegal, the treatment of widows in Hinduism is abysmal: The ongoing tragedy of India’s widows - Women’s Media Center

There is a lot more but it's clear that when it comes to women, Islam is not a "uniquely evil" ideology and this is not even historical, this is now.

------------------

Violence

Right now, the most common terrorism around the world is I think Islamic extremism. Is it uniquely evil and is it Islamic?

We have several millenniums of documented history on religious violence and excess in addition to Islam's.

Christian conquests and forceable coversions, both ancient and relatively modern in how Native American's were treated. The way Jews and Muslims were treated in Christian majority nations. The years and years of sectarian strife between Catholics and Protestants and all it's associated terrorism, culminating in the the Irish Troubles. And, let's not forget the rich trove of biblical scripture in support of a lot of nasty behavior.

Let's jump to today.

What has been happening in India? Oh...the rise of religious nationalism and identity (this usually bodes really bad for minorities):
Hinduism and Terror - by Paul Marshall

Or what the "peaceful" Bhuddist Nationalists are doing in Myanmar (despite the popular misconception that Buddhism was all about peace, that religion had it's warrior monks, just as Christianity had it's Doctrine Just War etc etc).
Myanmar's military accused of genocide in damning UN report

Forceable conversions and intolerance of minority religions?
Yup, that is a problem in may Muslim majority nations. But...it's a problem in Myanmar and India as well, just off the top of my head. Probably other areas too. Where it tends not to be a problem are nations with secular governments and a strong protection and tolerance of minorities. Again...not unique.

FGM? A horrible practice, still perpetrated that predated Islam in N. Africa and in the regions there where it is practiced, it is by all the groups regardless of religion. Quran makes no mention of it, nor for that matter does it demand women wear clothing resembling large black trash bags from head to toe.

So how is Islam a uniquely evil ideology then? What uniquely evil things has it done?

I could go on but once you start labeling an entire multi-cultural world religion as an "uniquely evil ideology" you come suspiciously close to demonizing. When you look at religious extremism - it almost always resembles other religious extremists rather than the moderate forms of it's own religion.

So that leads me to a question: Instead of labeling cultures and religions as "uniquely evil" shouldn't we be asking instead - why is there so much violence coming out of the Islamic world now? AND how do people feel about it? AND what can they do about it?

Maybe a starting point is - what are people's concerns regarding violence extremism? concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east


If it was the culture - it wouldn't be a 20th century phenomenon. It would be continuous and unrelenting. But it isn't. So maybe there is more to it then simply religion - religion is the vehicle covering over other problems.



And this is why I did not think this discussion is suited for a thread in IP. We (mods) usually cut off digressions into Jews around the world and Muslims around the world type of stuff, to try to keep it somewhat focused on IP.

I would honestly like to take it up with you in the "Bull Ring" - a defined topic, with just you and I discussing it. Then when we are done, and agree, disagree, agree to disagree - it's open to the peanut gallery.