Who should own and control the means of production?

[Contumacious]

Why is it that leftist...

Why is it that right wingers believe that fascism is good when they are the fascists?

There are fascists in BOTH parties. We are being governed by the demopublicans!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

 

[Bern80]

That's the problem. Is tha people seem to think capitalism and exploitation are synonomous. They are not. Capitalism is what allows AGREEMENT between parties in a transaction. Not exploitation.

You really believe that? Capitalism as all about gaining an advantage in the market place. Nothing impeeds that desire. In fact our courts are jammed full of cases where "agreements" were broken in pursuit of that advantage.

The "Rule Of Law" allows for agreements and not capitalism...and the "Rule Of Law" is based on equality and I assure you, capitalism has nothing to do nor does it want anything to do with equality.

Capitalism is not the "Rule Of Law" and the "Rule Of Law" is not capitalism!

It is the combination of the "Rule Of Law" and Capitalism" that works. And if anything, capitalists hate the rule of law when it gets in the way of profits. See the S&Ls under Reagan and Enron and the Mortgage Meltdown under Bush Jr for excellent examples of what capitalists think of the "Rule Of Law."

No one would ever claim the goal of capitalism is equality. It most certainly is not. People seem to have bazaar notions about equality as if it is something that is suppossed to be created for you. As if you somehow have the right to the same wealth as anyone else, but no responsibility on your own part of attaining it. If equality is what you want, capitilism aint for you. The mantra of the socialist seems to basically be share the misery.

yes, part of capitlism is gaining advantage in some facet or another. If you don't, your business dies, which means all these poor people you claim to have pity for lose their jobs. For people to have jobs, business must be competitive which means they must find advantages where they can.

Every post I read in opposition to anything capitalist reflects what I keep saying, that a lot of people seem to believe capitalism is a failure or doesn't achieve x outcome. So here's a quick list of things capitalism is NOT intended to do.

It is not intended to make everyone wealthy.

It is not intended to distribute wealth equally.

It is not intended to bring about equal outcomes.

If is not intended to provide you security.

As far as dealing with businesses that take advantage of people that is what courts are for. The idea being that if you really do have a case and win a message is sent that there are consequences to hurting consumers.

 

[Contumacious]

It is the combination of the "Rule Of Law" and Capitalism" that works. ."

Yeah, right. But if something goes wrong, and it certainly will, the private entrepreneurs will be blamed.

After the 1935 depression the government did not abolish the Federal Reserve Board, no sireeeee. The government created the emergency then it usurped more powers.

.

 

[JBeukema]

How did they play out in History?

Go to the library and ask for a history book. Try asking for a history of the labour movement. Ask about American imperialism, Granada, the United Fruit Company, and colonialism.
.

Man, I admire you. It takes balls to admit that you were wrong and don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

So you don't have the balls to admit you're wrong?


That explains your posts in this thread.

The Wobblies

Battle of Matewan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ask a librarian for information about the Primitive accumulation of capital during. Again, ask about the United Fruit Company

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbd5CTQCXto&feature=related[/ame]

 

[JBeukema]

That's the problem. Is tha people seem to think capitalism and exploitation are synonomous. They are not. Capitalism is what allows AGREEMENT between parties in a transaction. Not exploitation.

That's not how it played out in history.

Umm, like when? In what society was there a truly free market capitalism and how did it lead to the civilizations down fall?

see: robber barons

See The Business Plot:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNe9X1CLV_U[/ame]

 

[JBeukema]

That's the problem. Is tha people seem to think capitalism and exploitation are synonomous. They are not. Capitalism is what allows AGREEMENT between parties in a transaction. Not exploitation.

You really believe that? Capitalism as all about gaining an advantage in the market place. Nothing impeeds that desire. In fact our courts are jammed full of cases where "agreements" were broken in pursuit of that advantage.

The "Rule Of Law" allows for agreements and not capitalism...and the "Rule Of Law" is based on equality and I assure you, capitalism has nothing to do nor does it want anything to do with equality.

Capitalism is not the "Rule Of Law" and the "Rule Of Law" is not capitalism!

It is the combination of the "Rule Of Law" and Capitalism" that works. And if anything, capitalists hate the rule of law when it gets in the way of profits. See the S&Ls under Reagan and Enron and the Mortgage Meltdown under Bush Jr for excellent examples of what capitalists think of the "Rule Of Law."

No one would ever claim the goal of capitalism is equality. It most certainly is not. People seem to have bazaar notions about equality as if it is something that is suppossed to be created for you. As if you somehow have the right to the same wealth as anyone else, but no responsibility on your own part of attaining it. If equality is what you want, capitilism aint for you. The mantra of the socialist seems to basically be share the misery.

yes, part of capitlism is gaining advantage in some facet or another. If you don't, your business dies, which means all these poor people you claim to have pity for lose their jobs. For people to have jobs, business must be competitive which means they must find advantages where they can.

Every post I read in opposition to anything capitalist reflects what I keep saying, that a lot of people seem to believe capitalism is a failure or doesn't achieve x outcome. So here's a quick list of things capitalism is NOT intended to do.

It is not intended to make everyone wealthy.

It is not intended to distribute wealth equally.

It is not intended to bring about equal outcomes.

If is not intended to provide you security.

As far as dealing with businesses that take advantage of people that is what courts are for. The idea being that if you really do have a case and win a message is sent that there are consequences to hurting consumers.

We're calling for sociopolitical parity and a decent standard of living, you idiot.

That's all most of us have ever called for.

 

[loosecannon]

We're calling for sociopolitical parity and a decent standard of living, you idiot.

That's all most of us have ever called for.

Then you definitely want to consider anarcho-syndicalism.

Capitalism is designed to create and maintain class divisions, it's a dichotomy economy that creates winners and losers by definition. Whereas all of the social econ systems that preceded capitalism (family, tribe clan, city state, ethnic group etc) tended to offer essentially equal living standards and rewarded the exceptional with authority and positions of respect, not disproportionate shares of common wealth.

And as I said earlier capitalism does too good a job of rewarding those who are successful. While fully 60-90% of any success you can achieve in a modern economy is actually produced by society itself rather than exceptional individuals, we distribute rewards for achievements at ratios as extreme as 100,000:1.

That is far too harsh a punishment for mediocrity and far too large a reward for exceptionalism. Esp when society itself is 60% responsible for anything any of us could ever accomplish.

A more reasonable disparity of reward might be 2:1, or 10:1 max. That is of course assuming that both participants work full time etc.

 

[Intense]

You guy's are so full of shit. As long as it is somebody else's money you are for division, when it's your hard earned money, your tune will change, especially when you see others piss it away. Grow a spine, man, life is passing you by. Put down your Latte, turn off your lap top, and get up off of your ass.

 

[loosecannon]

You guy's are so full of shit. As long as it is somebody else's money you are for division, when it's your hard earned money, your tune will change, especially when you see others piss it away. Grow a spine, man, life is passing you by. Put down your Latte, turn off your lap top, and get up off of your ass.

the stale argument pitting capitalism vs socialism has little to do with what an individual does with their money once it is earned.

so what are you talking about?

 

[skookerasbil]

One of the central questions of any political ideology is "Who should own and control the means the production?" (Means of production refers to factories, farmlands, machinery, office space, etc.) Generally there have been three approaches to this issue.

1.The first was aristocracy, in which a ruling elite owned the land and productive wealth, and peasants and serfs had to obey their orders in return for their livelihood.

2.The second is capitalism, which disbanded the ruling elite and allows a much broader range of private individuals to own the means of production. However, this ownership is limited to those who can afford to buy productive wealth; nearly all workers are excluded.

3.The third approach is socialism, which is defined as "the collective ownership and control of the means of production." That is, everyone owns and controls productive wealth, which is accomplished through the vote.

As you can see, there is a spectrum here, ranging from a few people owning productive wealth at one end, to everyone owning it at the other.
====http://www.huppi.com

I believe we are currently between 2 & 3 as we add more regulations, etc. to those that own & control production, due to flaws in Capitalism.

yeah........but less than 20% of the country see things like you do s0n.........

Just keeping it real.............

 

[Toro]

The government should own as little property as possible.

It can pass laws that affect ownership and distribution of resources, but it should own as little as possible unless absolutely necessary.

EDIT - Outside of parks and land for public use.

 

[JBeukema]

You guy's are so full of shit

^Given your obvious difficulties with the English language, I doubt you've read and understood any of what has been said.^

Now... care to attempt making an intelligent point?

 

[Bern80]

We're calling for sociopolitical parity and a decent standard of living, you idiot.

That's all most of us have ever called for.

You are clearly the idiot. You're 'calling' for a decent standard of living? You are proving my point. It isn't anyone elses job to provide for you standard of living. IT's YOUR JOB. It's your job to figure out what skills you are going to need to earn the money needed to provide for your standard of living. How well do you think that society would work where everyone thinks it's everyone elses job to provide their standard of living?

I have bad news for the likes of you JB. Your standard of living will likely NEVER improve. know why? Because you no accountability having ass wipes refuse to acknowledge the one factor playing the largest role in what you SoL is.....YOU.

 

[Bern80]

We're calling for sociopolitical parity and a decent standard of living, you idiot.

That's all most of us have ever called for.

Then you definitely want to consider anarcho-syndicalism.

Capitalism is designed to create and maintain class divisions, it's a dichotomy economy that creates winners and losers by definition. Whereas all of the social econ systems that preceded capitalism (family, tribe clan, city state, ethnic group etc) tended to offer essentially equal living standards and rewarded the exceptional with authority and positions of respect, not disproportionate shares of common wealth.

And as I said earlier capitalism does too good a job of rewarding those who are successful. While fully 60-90% of any success you can achieve in a modern economy is actually produced by society itself rather than exceptional individuals, we distribute rewards for achievements at ratios as extreme as 100,000:1.

That is far too harsh a punishment for mediocrity and far too large a reward for exceptionalism. Esp when society itself is 60% responsible for anything any of us could ever accomplish.

A more reasonable disparity of reward might be 2:1, or 10:1 max. That is of course assuming that both participants work full time etc.

Do you have ANY actual evidence to back up any of the bullshit you just said?

 

[shintao]

You guy's are so full of shit. As long as it is somebody else's money you are for division, when it's your hard earned money, your tune will change, especially when you see others piss it away. Grow a spine, man, life is passing you by. Put down your Latte, turn off your lap top, and get up off of your ass.

It is interesting how cons always talk this way, it is always the greedy money angle for them. Never the want for a better world, better health, better anything really. There are millions of disallusioned imbeciles running around America today who are broke on their ass, and they thought they same way he does. One could only hope Beck might tell them to insert gun in mouth and pull the trigger.

 

[JBeukema]

We're calling for sociopolitical parity and a decent standard of living, you idiot.

That's all most of us have ever called for.

You are clearly the idiot. You're 'calling' for a decent standard of living? You are proving my point. It isn't anyone elses job to provide for you standard of living. IT's YOUR JOB. It's your job to figure out what skills you are going to need to earn the money needed to provide for your standard of living. How well do you think that society would work where everyone thinks it's everyone elses job to provide their standard of living?

I have bad news for the likes of you JB. Your standard of living will likely NEVER improve. know why? Because you no accountability having ass wipes refuse to acknowledge the one factor playing the largest role in what you SoL is.....YOU.

Sol is the name of our sun.

Also, 'elses' is not a word.

Thirdly: go to the library and ask for a history of the American labour movement.

 

[loosecannon]

We're calling for sociopolitical parity and a decent standard of living, you idiot.

That's all most of us have ever called for.

Then you definitely want to consider anarcho-syndicalism.

Capitalism is designed to create and maintain class divisions, it's a dichotomy economy that creates winners and losers by definition. Whereas all of the social econ systems that preceded capitalism (family, tribe clan, city state, ethnic group etc) tended to offer essentially equal living standards and rewarded the exceptional with authority and positions of respect, not disproportionate shares of common wealth.

And as I said earlier capitalism does too good a job of rewarding those who are successful. While fully 60-90% of any success you can achieve in a modern economy is actually produced by society itself rather than exceptional individuals, we distribute rewards for achievements at ratios as extreme as 100,000:1.

That is far too harsh a punishment for mediocrity and far too large a reward for exceptionalism. Esp when society itself is 60% responsible for anything any of us could ever accomplish.

A more reasonable disparity of reward might be 2:1, or 10:1 max. That is of course assuming that both participants work full time etc.

Do you have ANY actual evidence to back up any of the bullshit you just said?

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor - not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

- Albert Einstein

Beyond the previously proven facts that capitalism exists to create wealth disparity it is difficult to find evidence to prove merits of a system not yet in existence.

Of the points that I made which, if any, do you actually doubt to be true? Everything I said in that post seemed self evident.

 

[Contumacious]

You guy's are so full of shit. As long as it is somebody else's money you are for division, when it's your hard earned money, your tune will change, especially when you see others piss it away. Grow a spine, man, life is passing you by. Put down your Latte, turn off your lap top, and get up off of your ass.

It is interesting how cons always talk this way, it is always the greedy money angle for them. Never the want for a better world, better health, better anything really. There are millions of disallusioned imbeciles running around America today who are broke on their ass, and they thought they same way he does. One could only hope Beck might tell them to insert gun in mouth and pull the trigger.

My man I share your pain.

Why can't these stupid motherfuckers understand that it is their responsibility to keep you healthy, that they owe you a living.

Long Live the Vaterland.

Heil Hitler.

.

 

[shintao]

You guy's are so full of shit. As long as it is somebody else's money you are for division, when it's your hard earned money, your tune will change, especially when you see others piss it away. Grow a spine, man, life is passing you by. Put down your Latte, turn off your lap top, and get up off of your ass.

It is interesting how cons always talk this way, it is always the greedy money angle for them. Never the want for a better world, better health, better anything really. There are millions of disallusioned imbeciles running around America today who are broke on their ass, and they thought they same way he does. One could only hope Beck might tell them to insert gun in mouth and pull the trigger.

My man I share your pain.

Why can't these stupid motherfuckers understand that it is their responsibility to keep you healthy, that they owe you a living.

Long Live the Vaterland.

Heil Hitler.

.

Your hearing must be going dude, because I never asked anyone for anything I didn't earn. Contrary, you are looking pretty ignorant right now muff-mouth, and no you can't suck my cock even though you asked. So take your Hitler & shove him up your ass where he will be close to your gerbil ranch, puke.

 

[fyrenza]

Did ANYONE go with my ME thang???

If not, well,

I am having to exit myself from this douchebaggedness,

if that's a word...

brb!