Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Vanquish]

How will you enforce your anti-abortion law?...

So, for those wishing to ban abortion, document in detail your plan, exactly how you’d go about investigating, prosecuting, and punishing those ‘guilty’ of your new crime.

Once again, it’s time for the right to put up or shut up.

Well first of all, doctors are usually pretty law-abiding people so I'd say about 95-99% of doctors will stop on their own.

In the case of back-alley abortions, the doctor will get reported and discovered.

I'm not seeing why you think it's unenforceable. That opinion has no basis in reality.

In my personal opinion, it should be the mother's decision (or she can consent to have someone designated instead, since she probably couldnt make an unpressured decision during delivery) as to what do do in an extreme emergency (aka who do we save, the mother or the child).

done. easy. submit.

 

[Gadawg73]

How will you enforce your anti-abortion law?...

So, for those wishing to ban abortion, document in detail your plan, exactly how you’d go about investigating, prosecuting, and punishing those ‘guilty’ of your new crime.

Once again, it’s time for the right to put up or shut up.

Well first of all, doctors are usually pretty law-abiding people so I'd say about 95-99% of doctors will stop on their own.

In the case of back-alley abortions, the doctor will get reported and discovered.

I'm not seeing why you think it's unenforceable. That opinion has no basis in reality.

In my personal opinion, it should be the mother's decision (or she can consent to have someone designated instead, since she probably couldnt make an unpressured decision during delivery) as to what do do in an extreme emergency (aka who do we save, the mother or the child).

done. easy. submit.

"in the health interest of the mother"
How do you stop that?
What doctor is going to step forward and state it was not done in the best interest of the mother?
Do you know that is the standard in criminal court?
Real world.

 

[bill5]

Pardon the sidetrack (as if there haven't been others in this thread), but I just saw that I got a "negative rep" (I think) from ol Cecille. It's so lame it's funny and so I thought some of you might enjoy:

"Ohmigod, you CURSED! I win!" is the last resort of juveniles who can't make a self-supporting argument. Grow up, or go join a message board for tweenies.

Not sure why to even bother with the private little jab (?) - don't have the spine to say it where everyone can see? Or just becoming obsessed with me in a perverse way I'd rather not think about?

Next again surprise, the pot/kettle thing. I point out that casual/excessive cursing or doing as a name-calling thing because someone simply disagrees with you is not only obnoxious and childish but doesn't exactly build a case for one's intelligence, so I get "it's so stupid to say that!" Then more pot/kettle BS (original thought clearly isn't a strength here) of spewing childish spittle at me and then saying "grow up" after I suggest the same initially. I also have no idea what "tweenies" even are but that sounded funny in a little kid kind of way too.

Thanks for the laugh you rocket scientist you

But this is getting old quickly and clearly there is little if any real discussion to be had on this thread, so bye and have fun slinging the f words and such at each other some more. I can't wait for another snotty PM, lol

 

[AllieBaba]

So if a doctor aborts a baby because of "the safety and health of the mother" then you would charge the doctor with murder the same as the laws on the books?
SCARY

Another lie. Nobody has ever proposed this scenario.

Nice try though.

Fool, that is what EVERY DOCTOR did when abortion was "illegal".
You are too stupid to know any better.

Prove it, nitwit. Show me the stats of the thousands of women who died because they were "forced" to give birth to killer babies.

Liar and loser..

 

[Gadawg73]

Another lie. Nobody has ever proposed this scenario.

Nice try though.

Fool, that is what EVERY DOCTOR did when abortion was "illegal".
You are too stupid to know any better.

Prove it, nitwit. Show me the stats of the thousands of women who died because they were "forced" to give birth to killer babies.

Liar and loser..

?????
Once again this goes 20 feet over your naive and gullible head.
I do not know WTF you are talking about.
Doctors will give any diagnosis so that they can "legally" give a woman what she wants, an abortion when abortion was "illegal".
How does one prove that the diagnosis of the doctor that the woman needed thE abortion for health reasons is incorrect?
Explain that one. What is the standard of proof in criminal court to show that a doctor's diagnosis is incorrect?
Uh, to the dumbmasses: That would be another doctor and THAT DOCTOR NEVER SAW THAT PATIENT. So what you end up with is NOTHING to stop a doctor from providing whatever diagnosis he desires to fit the need for an abortion whether the law bans it or not.
Damn, you people are stupid as a box of rocks as to how the real world works.
Well, DUH.
Stick to your day job. You know nothing of THE LAW and how it is applied in THE REAL WORLD.

 

[AllieBaba]

Yeah, everybody ELSE is stupid, lol.

Per usual, you can't back up anything you say. Just flapping those cocksuckers....

 

[Dr.Drock]

How will you enforce your anti-abortion law?...

So, for those wishing to ban abortion, document in detail your plan, exactly how you’d go about investigating, prosecuting, and punishing those ‘guilty’ of your new crime.

Once again, it’s time for the right to put up or shut up.

Well first of all, doctors are usually pretty law-abiding people so I'd say about 95-99% of doctors will stop on their own.

In the case of back-alley abortions, the doctor will get reported and discovered.

I'm not seeing why you think it's unenforceable. That opinion has no basis in reality.

In my personal opinion, it should be the mother's decision (or she can consent to have someone designated instead, since she probably couldnt make an unpressured decision during delivery) as to what do do in an extreme emergency (aka who do we save, the mother or the child).

done. easy. submit.

Self-induced abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are dozens of self induced abortion methods that happen all over the world probably on a daily basis.

I'm certain all those methods would just be done by people here if abortion became illegal, and they probably already happen because girls make a naive decision to do it on their own.

I'm pro-choice just as a full disclosure but I take no issue with people being pro-life, I just don't think laws would do much to stop them here in this country and it would seem to be very very hard to prove.

 

[AllieBaba]

People who needed abortions for medical reasons would continue to be able to access them, just as they did before RvW in this country. They do it by going to their dr, advising him of the situation, and together making a decision.

Making it *legal* only allowed for abortion to be used as birth control. It was a bad law based upon misinformation and lies, and it continues to be a *cause* that is supported by nothing but misinformation and lies.

 

[Gadawg73]

People who needed abortions for medical reasons would continue to be able to access them, just as they did before RvW in this country. They do it by going to their dr, advising him of the situation, and together making a decision.

Making it *legal* only allowed for abortion to be used as birth control. It was a bad law based upon misinformation and lies, and it continues to be a *cause* that is supported by nothing but misinformation and lies.

Of course people that needed abortions for medical reasons would continue to be able to access them. And anyone else and everybody that could get a doctor to state that was the reason for the abortion. And that includes ANYONE WITH CASH.
That is the way it was before Roe and that is the way it will be if it was repealed.
It has always been used for birth control. Nothing new about that.
What lies was Roe argued on? What misinformation was used?
Specifics.

 

[AllieBaba]

The abortion industry is primarily a cash industry as it stands now. Because bottom line, the American people don't want to fund it, think it's revolting, and would never in a million years have voted abortion legal.

 

[Gadawg73]

Facts for the uninformed and ignorant:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html

 

[AllieBaba]

Facts for the uninformed and ignorant:

Lessons from Before Roe: Will Past be Prologue?

You wouldn't even know about guttmacher if I hadn't schooled you about them:

"By 1965, the number of deaths due to illegal abortion had fallen to just under 200"

All those are soft numbers, incidentally. You obviously have missed the many disclaimers guttmacher seeds throughout its site, where they state the numbers are soft and they have no real way of knowing the true stats, since PP doesn't actually provide stats.

 

[Vanquish]

How will you enforce your anti-abortion law?...

So, for those wishing to ban abortion, document in detail your plan, exactly how you’d go about investigating, prosecuting, and punishing those ‘guilty’ of your new crime.

Once again, it’s time for the right to put up or shut up.

Well first of all, doctors are usually pretty law-abiding people so I'd say about 95-99% of doctors will stop on their own.

In the case of back-alley abortions, the doctor will get reported and discovered.

I'm not seeing why you think it's unenforceable. That opinion has no basis in reality.

In my personal opinion, it should be the mother's decision (or she can consent to have someone designated instead, since she probably couldnt make an unpressured decision during delivery) as to what do do in an extreme emergency (aka who do we save, the mother or the child).

done. easy. submit.

"in the health interest of the mother"
How do you stop that?
What doctor is going to step forward and state it was not done in the best interest of the mother?
Do you know that is the standard in criminal court?
Real world.

I'm a lawyer who does criminal defense as a healthy part of my practice...so uhm I think I have a basis in reality.

How do you stop "in the interest of the mother" ? If you don't know, that language you're referring to is in one of the companion cases to Roe v. Wade, Webster, btw.

You stop that, by explainting that the "interest of the mother" is a life or death decision. It's as simple as that. No, really. If it's a choice between the mother and the child, which one do we have a greater chance of saving? Most mothers would rather save their child rather than themselves. But let's say they don't want to. The point is you'd rather save the person who has the greater chance.

I don't know why you're building this one part into some mission impossible. It's quite easy to understand.

Even the Catholic church has a history of protecting the mother in these type of circumstances. Read up. Here.

The problem isn't how do you enforce a law like this...it's getting people to value human life when they can't see it hidden away in a woman's womb.

 

[Gadawg73]

Facts for the uninformed and ignorant:

Lessons from Before Roe: Will Past be Prologue?

You wouldn't even know about guttmacher if I hadn't schooled you about them:

"By 1965, the number of deaths due to illegal abortion had fallen to just under 200"

All those are soft numbers, incidentally. You obviously have missed the many disclaimers guttmacher seeds throughout its site, where they state the numbers are soft and they have no real way of knowing the true stats, since PP doesn't actually provide stats.

So what does that prove?

 

[Lovebears65]

I am on the fence about pro choice and pro life and I am a ReP. I think a women has the right to her body but after 3 months pregnant then you should carry that baby to term. How can someone abort a 20 week old fetus when its viable in just a few more weeks. I also believe if the child is not going to survive the delivery because of child defect then I see no problem with abortion. If the the mother was raped or it was incest again I see why a mother would abort. I for my self can not do it either way. I could not live with myself so for me I am pro life but I will not judge another for doing it unless they do a late term abortion after 12 weeks pregnant.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

How will you enforce your anti-abortion law?...

So, for those wishing to ban abortion, document in detail your plan, exactly how you’d go about investigating, prosecuting, and punishing those ‘guilty’ of your new crime.

Once again, it’s time for the right to put up or shut up.

Since we already have laws on the books that deal with illegal killing, I am not sure why we wouldn’t just apply those same laws to the person who did the abortion.

Also, I’ve always assumed that the “child abuse” argument stemmed from a logic that goes, if they are killed before they are born, they will not be around to be abused later on. But, the more I think about it, even THAT does not make sense because abused children are the product of parents who made an active choice not to have an abortion in the first place.

So, as long as the population increases, the number of people who have abortions will increase but so will the number of people who have children. And, likewise, so will the number of parents who abuse those children.

So abortion really has nothing to do with it unless we are claiming we should have more abortions so we can bring our child-abuse numbers under control. And that’s the part of that argument I could really never get my head around.

So if a doctor aborts a baby because of "the safety and health of the mother" then you would charge the doctor with murder the same as the laws on the books?
SCARY

That may be your talking point but it is not what I said.

I consider the “how are we ever going to enforce anti-abortion laws” a straw man because, since we already have laws on the books that deal with illegal killing, once abortion becomes illegal killing, there will be no more need for any abortion laws at all.

You see, we will simply enforce the laws already on the books (so the government would not step in until after a killing was reported - just like in any other case where a law is broken).

However, for your sake, I will also add that those same laws have plenty of exceptions. (So I guess it would be up to people like you to insure the exceptions you mentioned get included).

 

[Cecilie1200]

How will you enforce your anti-abortion law?...

So, for those wishing to ban abortion, document in detail your plan, exactly how you’d go about investigating, prosecuting, and punishing those ‘guilty’ of your new crime.

Once again, it’s time for the right to put up or shut up.

Well first of all, doctors are usually pretty law-abiding people so I'd say about 95-99% of doctors will stop on their own.

In the case of back-alley abortions, the doctor will get reported and discovered.

I'm not seeing why you think it's unenforceable. That opinion has no basis in reality.

In my personal opinion, it should be the mother's decision (or she can consent to have someone designated instead, since she probably couldnt make an unpressured decision during delivery) as to what do do in an extreme emergency (aka who do we save, the mother or the child).

done. easy. submit.

Self-induced abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are dozens of self induced abortion methods that happen all over the world probably on a daily basis.

I'm certain all those methods would just be done by people here if abortion became illegal, and they probably already happen because girls make a naive decision to do it on their own.

I'm pro-choice just as a full disclosure but I take no issue with people being pro-life, I just don't think laws would do much to stop them here in this country and it would seem to be very very hard to prove.

Well, if Wikipedia says it, it MUST be true.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

How will you enforce your anti-abortion law?...

So, for those wishing to ban abortion, document in detail your plan, exactly how you’d go about investigating, prosecuting, and punishing those ‘guilty’ of your new crime.

Once again, it’s time for the right to put up or shut up.

Well first of all, doctors are usually pretty law-abiding people so I'd say about 95-99% of doctors will stop on their own.

In the case of back-alley abortions, the doctor will get reported and discovered.

I'm not seeing why you think it's unenforceable. That opinion has no basis in reality.

In my personal opinion, it should be the mother's decision (or she can consent to have someone designated instead, since she probably couldnt make an unpressured decision during delivery) as to what do do in an extreme emergency (aka who do we save, the mother or the child).

done. easy. submit.

"in the health interest of the mother"
How do you stop that?
What doctor is going to step forward and state it was not done in the best interest of the mother?
Do you know that is the standard in criminal court?
Real world.

Once again, this talking point simply has no base in reality because we have always had all kinds of exceptions to our laws that deal with killing.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

How will you enforce your anti-abortion law?...

So, for those wishing to ban abortion, document in detail your plan, exactly how you’d go about investigating, prosecuting, and punishing those ‘guilty’ of your new crime.

Once again, it’s time for the right to put up or shut up.

Well first of all, doctors are usually pretty law-abiding people so I'd say about 95-99% of doctors will stop on their own.

In the case of back-alley abortions, the doctor will get reported and discovered.

I'm not seeing why you think it's unenforceable. That opinion has no basis in reality.

In my personal opinion, it should be the mother's decision (or she can consent to have someone designated instead, since she probably couldnt make an unpressured decision during delivery) as to what do do in an extreme emergency (aka who do we save, the mother or the child).

done. easy. submit.

Self-induced abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are dozens of self induced abortion methods that happen all over the world probably on a daily basis.

I'm certain all those methods would just be done by people here if abortion became illegal, and they probably already happen because girls make a naive decision to do it on their own.

I'm pro-choice just as a full disclosure but I take no issue with people being pro-life, I just don't think laws would do much to stop them here in this country and it would seem to be very very hard to prove.

Our laws make all types of killing hard to prove.

Just ask OJ.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Well first of all, doctors are usually pretty law-abiding people so I'd say about 95-99% of doctors will stop on their own.

In the case of back-alley abortions, the doctor will get reported and discovered.

I'm not seeing why you think it's unenforceable. That opinion has no basis in reality.

In my personal opinion, it should be the mother's decision (or she can consent to have someone designated instead, since she probably couldnt make an unpressured decision during delivery) as to what do do in an extreme emergency (aka who do we save, the mother or the child).

done. easy. submit.

"in the health interest of the mother"
How do you stop that?
What doctor is going to step forward and state it was not done in the best interest of the mother?
Do you know that is the standard in criminal court?
Real world.

...The problem isn't how do you enforce a law like this...it's getting people to value human life when they can't see it hidden away in a woman's womb.

I could not agree more.