Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[AllieBaba]

If abortion cures child abuse, one wonders...

why has the rate of child abuse and murder increased exponentially since we legalized it?

Hmmmm...

Has it? Or is that just something you believe?

Even if the numbers are up, would it perhaps not make sense that they could be up because people report it more?

No, the numbers are definitely up.

And perhaps that does make sense...but it's still something you believe. The occurrence has increased. That's what we do know.

 

[AllieBaba]

And the incidence of child abuse continues to rise:

"The Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect Reports data from a representative sample of more than 5,600 professionals from 42 counties in the United States. The analysis examined the number of children harmed by abuse and neglect, child characteristics, family characteristics, perpetrator characteristics, report sources and CPS investigation. Significant increases were found in the number of abused and neglected children who were harmed, and at risk of harm, since the previous study in 1986. "

The National Incidence Study (NIS)

I think everybody has pretty much gotten onto the same page regarding abortion and child abuse...legal abortion does not decrease the incidence of child abuse. That is a complete myth. And the stats back it up.

 

[Anguille]

It's been maybe a month since I last looked in at USMB and wouldn't you know it, Allie Booby is still yapping away.

 

[AllieBaba]

If abortion cures child abuse, one wonders...

why has the rate of child abuse and murder increased exponentially since we legalized it?

Hmmmm...

Has it? Or is that just something you believe?

Even if the numbers are up, would it perhaps not make sense that they could be up because people report it more?

"because people report it more" is what I told her months ago.
Allie believes that ALL doctors reported all abortions when it was illegal.
I actually believe the numbers are up but other factors than it being legal are to blame for that. Irresponsible men play a large part in that. I offered ways to help that and Allie claimed I was a child molestor for offering those solutions.

good grief you're nuts.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I kill my sperm daily!

A DNA test on your sperm cells will reveal they do, indeed, match your DNA. So, as far as I am concerned, they are your cells and you are free to do whatever you wish with them.

However, once your sperm cell creates an embryo, that same DNA test will reveal that the embryo’s DNA does not match yours.

So those new cells no longer belong to you and you should not feel you are free to treat them as your own. Nope, the new cells belong to your offspring who is already a complete and unique human being (regardless of what it happens to look like at that particular stage of its development).

See? This is what I mean. How many decades have we been teaching biology, anatomy, and sex ed in the schools? And yet these ignoramuses STILL produce this crap and think it constitutes an argument.

So much for the vaunted value of "more education" to combat abortions. You can lead an imbecile to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

 

[Cecilie1200]

...I was taught to have compassion for all.

Me to. (But I also have compassion for those who look different than me and also need an advocate because they are simply not big enough to beg for their own lives).

I direct my compassion toward the victim, not the victimizer. And I'd say being the one who winds up dead during the abortion wins the fetus the "victim" title hands-down.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If abortion cures child abuse, one wonders...

why has the rate of child abuse and murder increased exponentially since we legalized it?

Hmmmm...

Has it? Or is that just something you believe?

Even if the numbers are up, would it perhaps not make sense that they could be up because people report it more?

Over 3 children died each day last year as a result of parental maltreatment. A national survey conducted by Prevent Child Abuse America early in 2007 suggests that the number of confirmed child abuse fatalities increased 39% over the last 10 years. - Child abuse prevention, child abuse education, Code Amber Alert by child abuse.com

You can try to pretend that nothing has changed over the years based on an unsubstantiated assumption of apocryphal "hidden" abortions and child abuse that mysteriously were never noticed, but I don't think anyone can pretend that dead children would have passed unremarked if they'd existed, nor do I think the authorities would have been blind to abuse as the cause of death if it had been there.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Has it? Or is that just something you believe?

Even if the numbers are up, would it perhaps not make sense that they could be up because people report it more?

"because people report it more" is what I told her months ago.
Allie believes that ALL doctors reported all abortions when it was illegal.
I actually believe the numbers are up but other factors than it being legal are to blame for that. Irresponsible men play a large part in that. I offered ways to help that and Allie claimed I was a child molestor for offering those solutions.

good grief you're nuts.

Let me see if I can help you cut through the mind fog and deliberate obtuseness here, Allie.

Abortion is a much more routine and safe procedure now (assuming that you go to a clinic that isn't using its protected abortion status to skirt the safety and hygiene regulations) than it was prior to Roe v. Wade, even when it was performed by a doctor. Given that the pro-abort side loves to trumpet this very fact and claim credit for legalization, I don't think anyone can or will argue this fact.

However, the reason - the REAL reason - for this is basically a coincidence: about the time that abortion was legalized, the use of antibiotics to fight infection also became widespread and common.

What this means is that - again, assuming you have a responsible, competent doctor - it is much less likely, statistically, for a woman to develop severe, life-threatening complications from abortion - and even childbirth - than it used to be.

You can breezily assert, without substantiation, that women just didn't report illegal abortions and, therefore, there were probably a million of them a year, just as there are now, until your face turns blue. But nothing is going to change the fact that IF that were true, there would have been SIGNIFICANTLY more deaths and medical treatments for complications and infections from those abortions (particularly if they actually followed the standard pro-abort storyline of "back alley butchers" that we're supposed to allow abortion to prevent). While people might not be aware of some woman going and having an abortion now, when it's a routine outpatient procedure unlikely to have many visible physical effects, they WOULD have noticed a slew of dead women and women traipsing to the doctor to be treated for hemorrhaging and raging infections.

Furthermore, as I've pointed out before, it wasn't all that hard to get a LEGAL abortion in most states, even the conservative ones. If your doctor signed on to the idea that you "needed" an abortion for medical reasons, it was unlikely to be questioned, and there were certainly doctors willing to claim "medical reasons" with very little provocation. By and large, the liberal storyline of "back alley abortions" and "coat hangers" is an urban legend. For example, the state of Kansas had nearly as many legal abortions the year before Roe v. Wade as California did.

This is not to say that there were never any illegal abortions, or women taking crazy risks with their health, because human beings are often very stupid, self-destructive creatures. However, there is simply no logical reason, let alone any sort of proof, to believe that abortion was as widespread and commonplace prior to Roe v. Wade as it has been since, and EVERY logical reason - and proof - to believe it was not.

 

[bill5]

No, the numbers are definitely up.

And perhaps that does make sense...but it's still something you believe. The occurrence has increased. That's what we do know.

And how do you "know" this? Some actual evidence would be nice.

And the incidence of child abuse continues to rise:

"The Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect Reports data from a representative sample of more than 5,600 professionals from 42 counties in the United States. The analysis examined the number of children harmed by abuse and neglect, child characteristics, family characteristics, perpetrator characteristics, report sources and CPS investigation. Significant increases were found in the number of abused and neglected children who were harmed, and at risk of harm, since the previous study in 1986. "

The National Incidence Study (NIS)

I think everybody has pretty much gotten onto the same page regarding abortion and child abuse...legal abortion does not decrease the incidence of child abuse. That is a complete myth. And the stats back it up.

Abortion was not legalized in 1986 FYI.

I very seriously doubt it has increased OR decreased child abuse.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

And the incidence of child abuse continues to rise:

...

The National Incidence Study (NIS)

I think everybody has pretty much gotten onto the same page regarding abortion and child abuse...legal abortion does not decrease the incidence of child abuse....

This makes sense to me simply because the abuse is almost always done by adults.

And, of course, nobody is proposing killing them off to lower these statistics.

 

[AllieBaba]

No, the numbers are definitely up.

And perhaps that does make sense...but it's still something you believe. The occurrence has increased. That's what we do know.

And how do you "know" this? Some actual evidence would be nice.

And the incidence of child abuse continues to rise:

"The Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect Reports data from a representative sample of more than 5,600 professionals from 42 counties in the United States. The analysis examined the number of children harmed by abuse and neglect, child characteristics, family characteristics, perpetrator characteristics, report sources and CPS investigation. Significant increases were found in the number of abused and neglected children who were harmed, and at risk of harm, since the previous study in 1986. "

The National Incidence Study (NIS)

I think everybody has pretty much gotten onto the same page regarding abortion and child abuse...legal abortion does not decrease the incidence of child abuse. That is a complete myth. And the stats back it up.

Abortion was not legalized in 1986 FYI.

I very seriously doubt it has increased OR decreased child abuse.

You don't read, do you?

I did provide evidence, you loon. You referenced it.

And the incidence has increased SINCE 1986. Our stat coverage hasn't changed that much since 1986, if at all, so the fact that it's STILL rising is the point I was making.

Carry on with being an idiot now.

 

[Cecilie1200]

No, the numbers are definitely up.

And perhaps that does make sense...but it's still something you believe. The occurrence has increased. That's what we do know.

And how do you "know" this? Some actual evidence would be nice.

And the incidence of child abuse continues to rise:

"The Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect Reports data from a representative sample of more than 5,600 professionals from 42 counties in the United States. The analysis examined the number of children harmed by abuse and neglect, child characteristics, family characteristics, perpetrator characteristics, report sources and CPS investigation. Significant increases were found in the number of abused and neglected children who were harmed, and at risk of harm, since the previous study in 1986. "

The National Incidence Study (NIS)

I think everybody has pretty much gotten onto the same page regarding abortion and child abuse...legal abortion does not decrease the incidence of child abuse. That is a complete myth. And the stats back it up.

Abortion was not legalized in 1986 FYI.

I very seriously doubt it has increased OR decreased child abuse.

I don't believe Allie ever said that abortion increased child abuse. She said the incidence of it has increased since the late 1970s. And her point was that the standard liberal "compassion" argument that abortion should be legal "because those unwanted children would just be abused" is crap, since legalized abortion obviously has not decreased the incidence thereof.

 

[bill5]

You don't read, do you?

Yes. And unlike you, I also comprehend. You provided evidence of an increase between 1986 and 1996. I repeat for the second time - try to follow now - abortion wasn't legalized in 1986, so your statement "why has the rate of child abuse and murder increased exponentially since we legalized it?" is invalid. Provide some evidence of an exponential increase from 1973 to today and then you'll actually have something. We'll all hold our breath waiting.

To use your own words: carry on with being an idiot now.

 

[bill5]

I don't believe Allie ever said that abortion increased child abuse. She said the incidence of it has increased since the late 1970s. And her point was that the standard liberal "compassion" argument that abortion should be legal "because those unwanted children would just be abused" is crap, since legalized abortion obviously has not decreased the incidence thereof.

Thanks for the translation into English.

Pathetically flawed logic aside, then she should use evidence that backs it up or simply admit it's her opinion only.

 

[Gadawg73]

And the incidence of child abuse continues to rise:

"The Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect Reports data from a representative sample of more than 5,600 professionals from 42 counties in the United States. The analysis examined the number of children harmed by abuse and neglect, child characteristics, family characteristics, perpetrator characteristics, report sources and CPS investigation. Significant increases were found in the number of abused and neglected children who were harmed, and at risk of harm, since the previous study in 1986. "

The National Incidence Study (NIS)

I think everybody has pretty much gotten onto the same page regarding abortion and child abuse...legal abortion does not decrease the incidence of child abuse. That is a complete myth. And the stats back it up.

And I stated my 30 years work with The Boys Club, Youth football, basketball, baseball, and soccer coaching young boys without fathers in their lives and you stated that I did it because I am attracted to little boys.
I do it because right wing loons like you ignore the fact that is the absence of men and them being responsible that causes the problem.
Teach these boys how to be responsible and less women get pregnant.

 

[Gadawg73]

Has it? Or is that just something you believe?

Even if the numbers are up, would it perhaps not make sense that they could be up because people report it more?

"because people report it more" is what I told her months ago.
Allie believes that ALL doctors reported all abortions when it was illegal.
I actually believe the numbers are up but other factors than it being legal are to blame for that. Irresponsible men play a large part in that. I offered ways to help that and Allie claimed I was a child molestor for offering those solutions.

good grief you're nuts.

Allie does not know that you have to have a man to make a woman pregnant.
According to Allie and the right wing looons it is always the fault of the mother no matter what happens.

 

[AllieBaba]

You don't read, do you?

Yes. And unlike you, I also comprehend. You provided evidence of an increase between 1986 and 1996. I repeat for the second time - try to follow now - abortion wasn't legalized in 1986, so your statement "why has the rate of child abuse and murder increased exponentially since we legalized it?" is invalid. Provide some evidence of an exponential increase from 1973 to today and then you'll actually have something. We'll all hold our breath waiting.

To use your own words: carry on with being an idiot now.

No, it's not, you fucking retard. We have something already, you just aren't intelligent or honest enough to grasp it.

If you assert that abortion decreases child abuse, then my stats show that you're full of shit, because child abuse not only has increased since the legalization of abortion, it CONTINUES to increase. If your argument is that we can't tell that the incidence has increased since legalization, then we can use the stats just since 1986, and see that the rate of child abuse/neglect continues to climb, DESPITE legalization of abortion and increased access to abortion.

Hello? Anybody home? The study (which conveniently has the word "incidence" in the title, to help you along) shows that child abuse continues to climb, regardless of the availability of abortion, which means that people who argue that we need abortion to decrease child abuse are, well, just lying. At best, they're fantasizing, and their fantasies have absolutely no basis in fact. Because the facts show that not only has incidence increased since the advent of legalized abortion, but that the incidence CONTINUES to climb.

I know this is difficult for simple minded ignorami, who get all their information from wive's tales and Planned Parenthood propaganda fliers....

 

[bill5]

No, it's not, you fucking retard.

Wow - "fucking retard" - impressive. Your little potty mouth certainly lends credibility to your posts and alleged IQ.

We have something already, you just aren't intelligent or honest enough to grasp it.

This, however, does not. Can someone translate that one into English as well? ie who is "we" and what does "we have something already" even refer to? You have - what? Poor reading comprehension? A potty mouth? A pathetic inability to have a rational discussion?

If you assert that abortion decreases child abuse, then my stats show that you're full of shit,

I didn't, but pretending that I did for a sec, I again ask you to show me "your stats" which allegedly show I'm "full of shit." (there's that potty mouth again, tsk tsk - if your mother ever found out - ). The ones above do not for reasons I already explained and then some. If you don't get it, maybe a teacher can explain it to you.

If your argument is that we can't tell that the incidence has increased since legalization, then we can use the stats just since 1986,

My God Gump! Depending on how you meant it, you might have actually just made some sense! Yes, we can use your stats to show child abuse increased from 1986 to 1996.

Unfortunately, that also means your "child abuse has increased" (and "exponentially," remember?) since the legalization of abortion" statement still remains quite unproven.

Hello? Anybody home?

In your case, I'm afraid not.

The study (which conveniently has the word "incidence" in the title, to help you along) shows that child abuse continues to climb, regardless of the availability of abortion,

Nooo, for the second time, try to follow now: the recap of the study (we don't have access to the study itself) states that child abuse increased from 1986 to 1996, along with some demographics and such. Period. There is nothing there about the cause, either proven or even theorized. You are simply yanking out stuff out of your butt like some hippie on LSD. Dude! The colors!

this is difficult for simple minded ignorami,

Clearly. But congrats on finally looking in the mirror.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't believe Allie ever said that abortion increased child abuse. She said the incidence of it has increased since the late 1970s. And her point was that the standard liberal "compassion" argument that abortion should be legal "because those unwanted children would just be abused" is crap, since legalized abortion obviously has not decreased the incidence thereof.

Thanks for the translation into English.

Pathetically flawed logic aside, then she should use evidence that backs it up or simply admit it's her opinion only.

You're very welcome for the clarification for the English-impaired.

Furthermore, she DID use evidence that backs it up. I realize that you desperately want to pretend that the only studies including every year all the way back to the passage of Roe v. Wade will suffice (which will then, of course, be rejected as "no evidence" for some other pretext), but since what Allie is demonstrating is that widespread legalized abortion does nothing to decrease child abuse, ANY time period in which widespread legalized abortion has been available serves. Has abortion-on-demand been legal the entire time since 1986? Yes. Has it decreased child abuse? No.

Finally, the spectacle of people who make breezy arguments like "Child abuse is just reported more now" and "How do you know there weren't just as many abortions when they were illegal?" without a single shred of evidence to support that trying to excoriate someone ELSE for "not enough evidence" is just laughable.

And yes, I realize that you didn't personally say those things. You're just defending them now that someone else said them. So if you want better evidence from Allie, I think you're going to have to start ponying up some evidence of your own first, because from where I sit, she's way ahead of you in that game.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

It's not just YOUR BODY. If it were just YOUR BODY, you could drop it off a cliff for anyone cares. In fact, I'll be happy to give you a push if you want. The fetus is ANOTHER body, a DIFFERENT life. NOBODY should have the power of life and death over another innocent human being.

You know, pro-aborts are always wailing about how what we REALLY need to reduce the number of abortions is just more education. Yet we've been teaching biology in schools for how many years, and they STILL don't know that a fetus is not part of his mother's body. So much for THAT plan.

And what are you going to do about it? Put doctors and women in jail? To be consistent you must also forbid abortion in cases of rape, incest, and when the woman’s life is at risk.

How will you enforce your anti-abortion law? Require pregnant women to register with the state? Have doctors inform on their patients, turning in the names of women who ask about abortion or who don’t ‘seem happy’ with the pregnancy? Perhaps you’ll have neighbors and family members spy on pregnant women, with a criminal penalty for anyone ‘failing to report an abort.’

What we have, therefore, is not only the right advocating an un-Constitutional violation of privacy rights, but also the creation of a police-state apparatus threatening individual liberty.

Where are the small government conservatives? This certainly doesn’t sound like ‘individual liberty,’ indeed, it sounds exactly like the authoritarianism the right accuses liberals of constantly.

So, for those wishing to ban abortion, document in detail your plan, exactly how you’d go about investigating, prosecuting, and punishing those ‘guilty’ of your new crime.

Once again, it’s time for the right to put up or shut up.