Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Ravi]

Damn, Buttemia has been reincarnated?

 

[Cecilie1200]

The child is not your body. Biology 101. Your beloved catchphrase is, to put it plainly, fucking bullshit. You have every right to do with your body as you will so long as you harm nobody else. You may tattoo it, pierce it, and penetrate it with exotic toys all you like. You may not harm another person either with your body (eg: punching someone in the face) or in the course of doing something to your own body (eg: suicide bombing).

Nobody gives a shit what you do with your body. What's at issue is whether or not you may harm another human being- killing generally being recognized as harmful.
Homicide has always been recognized as a social issue. If I shoot you in the face, it sure as hell is society's business why I did so, so it can be determined whether my acts are acceptable or whether I am guilty of some crime, such as homicide or manslaughter.

When you rely on emotions and refuse to address the matter honestly, you are no different than the wackos waving bibles around. You might be on the other side of the isle, but you are a mirror image of the same mindset.

Think what you will, as it is beyond my control. What IS in my control is MY BODY. Nobody elses. And until you are impregnated with a life you didnt ask for growing in it, you have no say.

It's not just YOUR BODY. If it were just YOUR BODY, you could drop it off a cliff for anyone cares. In fact, I'll be happy to give you a push if you want. The fetus is ANOTHER body, a DIFFERENT life. NOBODY should have the power of life and death over another innocent human being.

You know, pro-aborts are always wailing about how what we REALLY need to reduce the number of abortions is just more education. Yet we've been teaching biology in schools for how many years, and they STILL don't know that a fetus is not part of his mother's body. So much for THAT plan.

 

[AllieBaba]

And regardless of the fact we have increased education, increased accessibility to birth control, increased availability of abortion....the rate keeps climbing. The child abuse rate, the child neglect rates, abortion rates....

And yet they continue to say more abortion will lower all those numbers.

It's just a lie, and a provable one at that.

 

[IndependntLogic]

I'm not a scientist so I won't argue from that point. I'm just a guy. I know that I don't call an egg a chicken - even the fertilized ones.
I am also a Christian and I used to volunteer at The StoreFront in San Diego. It's a teen crisis center. I left with very different views than I arrived with.
One of the first girls I met was fourteen. Her dad had been prostituting her to his friends for a couple years and using her himself, when he felt like it.
Another one was thirteen and had been gang-raped by her brother and three of friends from his gang who thought she was cute.
Both those girls got abortions. Who am I to judge?
Lots of girls came in after being slipped rufi's in their coke or 7-up. Others had tried alcohol. In any case, they were drugged and then raped.
Being raped is a horrible trauma. Having the government or someone else tell you God will hate you unless you carry a guarantee that you will never forget, never heal, never live a normal life, for nine months, seems like inflicting cruel & unusual punishment on an innocent, to me now.
Of course, before then it was easy to sit on my high and mighty throne of self-righteousness and judge others. Now, not so much.

But then, I was taught not to judge another.
I was taught to have compassion for all.
I was taught my sins are no better than that of another.

Oh, and I was taught that using God to influence politics was about as bad and low as it gets. Of course, I'm referring to the Pharisees and Sadducees.

 

[AllieBaba]

Who asked you to judge?

Did you report the men who got them pregnant? Did you refer the girls to child welfare?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm not a scientist so I won't argue from that point. I'm just a guy. I know that I don't call an egg a chicken - even the fertilized ones.

But do you know that a bird isn't a mammal, so their respective reproductive systems have nothing whatsoever to do with each other?

One of the defining traits of mammals - one of the major things that differentiates them from other animals, in other words - is the fact that they give birth to LIVE YOUNG, as opposed to, for example, laying eggs.

You don't have to be a scientist to know that. Just a junior high graduate.

I am also a Christian and I used to volunteer at The StoreFront in San Diego. It's a teen crisis center. I left with very different views than I arrived with.
One of the first girls I met was fourteen. Her dad had been prostituting her to his friends for a couple years and using her himself, when he felt like it.
Another one was thirteen and had been gang-raped by her brother and three of friends from his gang who thought she was cute.
Both those girls got abortions. Who am I to judge?

One would hope - but possibly in vain - you are a moral, decent, intelligent human being. I cannot imagine what about Christianity taught you that you are supposed to stand back from acts and shrug and say, "Who am I to say what's right and wrong?"

Lots of girls came in after being slipped rufi's in their coke or 7-up. Others had tried alcohol. In any case, they were drugged and then raped.
Being raped is a horrible trauma. Having the government or someone else tell you God will hate you unless you carry a guarantee that you will never forget, never heal, never live a normal life, for nine months, seems like inflicting cruel & unusual punishment on an innocent, to me now.

Hysterical sob stories about extreme circumstances and straw-man arguments do nothing whatsoever to advance the real discussion. Off the top of my head, I know of no one who is suggesting that the goal here is to "have the government or someone tell you that God will hate you", so it would be more productive if you didn't waste our time inserting such nonsensical garbage into the debate as though we're expected to take it seriously and discuss it as meaningful.

Is your theory is that people can't be reminded often enough that most abortions are performed on teenagers who've been raped by their own dads? If not, why are you bringing it up in a discussion of abortion in general?

Of course, before then it was easy to sit on my high and mighty throne of self-righteousness and judge others. Now, not so much.

On the contrary, it sounds to me like you just shifted the targets of your self-righteous judgementalism, apparently in tandem with shifting your thinking functions from your brains to your glands.

But then, I was taught not to judge another.

Unless you can make yourself feel morally superior and warm and fuzzy non-judgemental while you're doing it. You didn't notice that your whole riff on this is really just you saying, "You pro-lifers are such heartless, mean bastards, and you should become kind and enlightened like I did", aka judging those who still have the moral fortitude to see that "life sucks" is not an excuse for infanticide?

I was taught to have compassion for all.

Except for helpless infants being dismembered and thrown in the trash, apparently, because they were unlucky enough to be out or your sight, and therefore out of your mind.

I was taught my sins are no better than that of another.

Make up your mind. Either you're utterly incapable of making any judgements about the moral value of people's actions, in which case there's no such thing in your lexicon as "sin", or not. Arguing both sides at once just sounds ludicrous.

Oh, and I was taught that using God to influence politics was about as bad and low as it gets. Of course, I'm referring to the Pharisees and Sadducees.

I'm not sure what I find more nauseatingly revolting about this post: the fact that you sanctimoniously lectured us on how your superior understanding of Christianity required you to support massive, ongoing infanticide under the tattered, moldering disguise of "compassion", or the fact that you THEN have the unbelievable chutzpah to turn around and tell OTHERS how "low" THEY are for daring to let Christianity influence THEIR positions on abortion, simply because they chose a different position from yours.

Speaking of your Pharisees and Sadducees . . . Wasn't hypocrisy THEIR big problem, too?

 

[Gadawg73]

Not the same as Obamacare for sure. I oppose the Obama plan also but there are NO death panels in it

Uh, yes there is - the Independent Payment Advisory Board - read up.



How it will "go" is that if their contract with me promised something, and they renege, I'll sue and they'll lose for breach of contract. That people sue all the time because they didn't get services that weren't in the contract is neither here nor there.



If they have such a bad business reputation, why do so many people do business with them? Must be stupid I guess.



Uh, no.



Actually what you say IS true when the insurance is employer provided.



Nonsense - go to canada or the UK, and ask yourself if you're getting "good health care" if the doctor orders an MRI for you, and you get on an eight month waiting list.

Health "insurance" is a joke and has resulted in creating a health care model in Americat that has little, if any, free market forces at work.

There is truth in that, and the causes are all due to GOVERNMENT.

First of all you need to understand contract law, what constitutes breach of contract and how a health insurance policy defines decleration of benefits.
Insurance companies own America. Their lobbyists wrote ERISA which LIMITS and in many cases eliminates breach of contract for bad faith behavior by an insurance company.
NO penalties whatsoever.
So you sue, take your insurance company to court over $50,000 in denied insurance claims.
18 months later and $40,000 in legal bills later you win! You win $50,000 PERIOD.
In the real world who in their right mind sues insurance companies?
Fact is insurance companies run the show. They pay what they want and define their dec sheets as they see fit.
Real world.
And I have relatives in Canada. They are healthier than we are because they have health care, not disease care. Do not believe all the myths you hear about Canadian health care. It is true, it takes longer to get a specialist. Why? Unlike us, they do not spend 60 cents on the dollar for 4% of the population.
Canada is not socialized medicine. Each doctor runs their own business. I have a good friend of mine that is a doctor here. He has to employ TWO women just to handle the over 1000 different insurance companies with their different rules, regs and forms for his practice alone. Single payer is better.
Some wait times in Canada ARE TERRIBLE. Well guess why? Canada is a very, very large frozen tundra in many rural areas. They have to travel hundreds of miles to get treatment. The same scenario would exist here and DOES exist here in south Georgia and many other areas NOW.
The biggest lie is when I hear "you can not choose your own doctor in Canada". That is so funny and the masses believe those lies. Fact is you choose your own doctor all the time in Canada. In Canada poor people have the same access to the best specialists as wealthy people do.
There are pros and cons to both systems. However, the lies and myths about the Canadian system are legend.

 

[Gadawg73]

Not the same as Obamacare for sure. I oppose the Obama plan also but there are NO death panels in it

Uh, yes there is - the Independent Payment Advisory Board - read up.



How it will "go" is that if their contract with me promised something, and they renege, I'll sue and they'll lose for breach of contract. That people sue all the time because they didn't get services that weren't in the contract is neither here nor there.



If they have such a bad business reputation, why do so many people do business with them? Must be stupid I guess.



Uh, no.



Actually what you say IS true when the insurance is employer provided.



Nonsense - go to canada or the UK, and ask yourself if you're getting "good health care" if the doctor orders an MRI for you, and you get on an eight month waiting list.

Health "insurance" is a joke and has resulted in creating a health care model in Americat that has little, if any, free market forces at work.

There is truth in that, and the causes are all due to GOVERNMENT.

When did government force health insurance on Americans?

 

[IndependntLogic]

But do you know that a bird isn't a mammal, so their respective reproductive systems have nothing whatsoever to do with each other?

One of the defining traits of mammals - one of the major things that differentiates them from other animals, in other words - is the fact that they give birth to LIVE YOUNG, as opposed to, for example, laying eggs.

You don't have to be a scientist to know that. Just a junior high graduate.

I am also a Christian and I used to volunteer at The StoreFront in San Diego. It's a teen crisis center. I left with very different views than I arrived with.
One of the first girls I met was fourteen. Her dad had been prostituting her to his friends for a couple years and using her himself, when he felt like it.
Another one was thirteen and had been gang-raped by her brother and three of friends from his gang who thought she was cute.
Both those girls got abortions. Who am I to judge?

One would hope - but possibly in vain - you are a moral, decent, intelligent human being. I cannot imagine what about Christianity taught you that you are supposed to stand back from acts and shrug and say, "Who am I to say what's right and wrong?"



Hysterical sob stories about extreme circumstances and straw-man arguments do nothing whatsoever to advance the real discussion. Off the top of my head, I know of no one who is suggesting that the goal here is to "have the government or someone tell you that God will hate you", so it would be more productive if you didn't waste our time inserting such nonsensical garbage into the debate as though we're expected to take it seriously and discuss it as meaningful.

Is your theory is that people can't be reminded often enough that most abortions are performed on teenagers who've been raped by their own dads? If not, why are you bringing it up in a discussion of abortion in general?



On the contrary, it sounds to me like you just shifted the targets of your self-righteous judgementalism, apparently in tandem with shifting your thinking functions from your brains to your glands.



Unless you can make yourself feel morally superior and warm and fuzzy non-judgemental while you're doing it. You didn't notice that your whole riff on this is really just you saying, "You pro-lifers are such heartless, mean bastards, and you should become kind and enlightened like I did", aka judging those who still have the moral fortitude to see that "life sucks" is not an excuse for infanticide?



Except for helpless infants being dismembered and thrown in the trash, apparently, because they were unlucky enough to be out or your sight, and therefore out of your mind.

I was taught my sins are no better than that of another.

Make up your mind. Either you're utterly incapable of making any judgements about the moral value of people's actions, in which case there's no such thing in your lexicon as "sin", or not. Arguing both sides at once just sounds ludicrous.

Oh, and I was taught that using God to influence politics was about as bad and low as it gets. Of course, I'm referring to the Pharisees and Sadducees.

I'm not sure what I find more nauseatingly revolting about this post: the fact that you sanctimoniously lectured us on how your superior understanding of Christianity required you to support massive, ongoing infanticide under the tattered, moldering disguise of "compassion", or the fact that you THEN have the unbelievable chutzpah to turn around and tell OTHERS how "low" THEY are for daring to let Christianity influence THEIR positions on abortion, simply because they chose a different position from yours.

Speaking of your Pharisees and Sadducees . . . Wasn't hypocrisy THEIR big problem, too?

You obviously have very strong emotions about this, as displayed by your progression from sarcasm to insult to overt hostility.
It was not my intention to offend or to seem like I am judging anyone who is against abortion. I can understand and appreciate the reasoning for such a view.

So I'll try to just gloss past the anger and stay focused on the actual points you made.

1. Fertilized animal egg vs. fertilized human egg. You claim you know live begins at fertilization. I don't. I simply don't know. So while you are obviously strong in your beliefs, I am allowed to simply not be sure. I imagine that seems unreasonable to you and you will again hurl your petty insults about junior high school and such. So be it.

2. "Christianity taught you that you are supposed to stand back from acts and shrug and say, "Who am I to say what's right and wrong?"
Actually, Jesus taught me exactly that. I'm not to judge another. I'm not to cast the first stone. I'm not to point to the speck in my brother's eye and so on. I know what I believe is right and wrong and that I have faced many difficult decisions, many of which I made the wrong choices on. But it is for me to love everyone as best I can and try to be as compassionate of their mistakes as I can. That's the goal - which I often fail at miserably. It sounds like the decision would be easy for you, were you to have been raped - which I have made clear, is the only circumstances I am talking about when it comes to abortion. Not so easy for those girls. There was no one to help them. And the very people who would point their fingers for the abortion, will most certainly complain about them being on welfare later. There was no church, no charity, nothing for these girls.

3. "Hysterical sob stories about extreme circumstances and straw-man arguments"
Maybe you're older, out of touch or just haven't been exposed to it but statistically, 1 out of 4 women in this country are raped by the age of 25. The percentage shoots up in inner cities etc...
Love the phrase "Sob stories" in reference to rape, btw. I think that says something.

4. "you saying, "You pro-lifers are such heartless.." Not my opinion at all. I know many people who are pro-life and wonderful compassionate people. I could never imagine any of them, calling rape a "sob story" for example.

5. "to let Christianity influence THEIR positions on abortion"
Actually, abortion has become very political. I was referring to the politicians use it as a tool to get elected. If it did not come across they way I meant it, well my wife will verify that, that happens.
As far as personal views go, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I was simply sharing some personal experience which changed my views on abortion when it comes to rape, incest etc... I didn't think this would be tough to understand.

But then, I did go to junior high school

You may now feel free to sling a bit more anger and petty insults...

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Why can't the anti abortion crowd be honest?

You want to bring MILLIONS OF UNWANTED CHILDREN into the world. Unwanted children are MUCH MORE LIKELY to be abused.

You are pro child abuse.

Is there no evil in the world that the Republican Party won't support?

I am not sure why you think people who state cold, hard, scientific facts are dishonest but I will continue to do so until someone provides me some cold, hard, scientific evidence that I am wrong.

Also, once again, speaking of evil, do you honestly feel “unwanted children” would be better off dead simply because they might be abused?

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

I am extremely proud.

An embryo is NOT A HUMAN BEING. If it was, all the frozen embryos in labs around the country would have the right to carry guns.

Unwanted children are MUCH more likely to be abused. So you are pro child abuse.

War, guns, pollution, child abuse...is there no evil the Republican Party won't support?

A (human) embryo may not look like what you, personally, think a human being should look like, but that does not mean it is not a human being. Sure, it may not be a baby yet, but it is just as human as the rest of us (it just happens to look a little different).

Also, once that human embryo grows old enough, it will have the right to carry a gun just like everyone else who is fortunate enough to live that long.

And, speaking of evil, do you honestly feel “unwanted children” would be better off dead simply because they might be abused? (This argument always amazes me every time I see it.)

An embryo is NOT A HUMAN BEING.

If it were all the thousands of frozen embryos in labs in this country would have the right to own guns.

Once again, a “human” embryo may not look like what you, personally, think a human being should look like, but that does not mean it is not a human being. Sure, it may not be a baby yet, but it is just as human as the rest of us (it just happens to look a little different then we do).

Also, once again, if those human embryos live long enough to reach the legal age, they will have every right to own guns( just like the rest of us humans in this country).

 

[AllieBaba]

If abortion cures child abuse, one wonders...

why has the rate of child abuse and murder increased exponentially since we legalized it?

Hmmmm...

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

I kill my sperm daily!

A DNA test on your sperm cells will reveal they do, indeed, match your DNA. So, as far as I am concerned, they are your cells and you are free to do whatever you wish with them.

However, once your sperm cell creates an embryo, that same DNA test will reveal that the embryo’s DNA does not match yours.

So those new cells no longer belong to you and you should not feel you are free to treat them as your own. Nope, the new cells belong to your offspring who is already a complete and unique human being (regardless of what it happens to look like at that particular stage of its development).

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

...NOBODY should have the power of life and death over another innocent human being.

The government has the power of life and death over us but usually there is some due process allowed before the killing is done.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

...I was taught to have compassion for all.

Me to. (But I also have compassion for those who look different than me and also need an advocate because they are simply not big enough to beg for their own lives).

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

If abortion cures child abuse, one wonders...

why has the rate of child abuse and murder increased exponentially since we legalized it?

Hmmmm...

Yes, one does wonder...

 

[jillian]

If abortion cures child abuse, one wonders...

why has the rate of child abuse and murder increased exponentially since we legalized it?

Hmmmm...

Has it? Or is that just something you believe?

Even if the numbers are up, would it perhaps not make sense that they could be up because people report it more?

 

[IndependntLogic]

...I was taught to have compassion for all.

Me to. (But I also have compassion for those who look different than me and also need an advocate because they are simply not big enough to beg for their own lives).

I can respect that view.

 

[bill5]

If one's position is defensible, shouldn't you be able to defend it with logical, cogent, well-thought-out arguments? Shouldn't you be able to discuss the matter in an honest and intelligent manner?

A blastocyst/foetus/etc is an organism. It is alive and it is genetically human.* These are verifiable, objective, demonstrable scientific facts. It is all a matter of basic biology.

Therefore, the child is be definition a living human organism. We are, therefore, dealing with a human life. To 'abort' a pregnancy is to bring about the end of those physiological and biological processes that identify this human organism as alive- it is to bring about the child's death.

It is therefore a scientific fact that when we speak of abortion, we speak of ending human life. As we are also humans, we are therefore dealing with a case of homicide- homicide is defined as the killing of a human being by another human being.

If your position is defensible- if the ending of this life is a defensible ac- then you should be able to demonstrate why this is justifiable or acceptable without denying the facts of what it is you support. When pretend that we're not dealing with a living human being, you reveal that one or both of the following is true:
-You do not know what it is you advocate; you are guided purely by your emotion and your programming. You should shut your fucking mouth and not speak about things you do not understand

-You know your position is indefensible; you must lie about what it is you advocate because you cannot honestly defend your position

Gotta love the pot/kettle thing. First you ask for people to "discuss the matter in an honest and intelligent manner" then follow up with stuff like "You should shut your fucking mouth and not speak about things you do not understand."

Brilliant. Great basis for honest, intelligent discussion there.

btw, I am not trying to imply I am either staunchly "pro life" or "pro choice." In my experience, both sides tend to be extremist and close-minded and think this other side is horrible stupid blah blah blah and neither is about to listen to the other, so for me online discussion is typically pointless.

Oh and could your brilliant self have at least posted this in an appropriate forum, like politics or ethics?


PS: never mind. Apparently you've been banned. aw.

 

[Gadawg73]

If abortion cures child abuse, one wonders...

why has the rate of child abuse and murder increased exponentially since we legalized it?

Hmmmm...

Has it? Or is that just something you believe?

Even if the numbers are up, would it perhaps not make sense that they could be up because people report it more?

"because people report it more" is what I told her months ago.
Allie believes that ALL doctors reported all abortions when it was illegal.
I actually believe the numbers are up but other factors than it being legal are to blame for that. Irresponsible men play a large part in that. I offered ways to help that and Allie claimed I was a child molestor for offering those solutions.