Why Do Atheists Insist That Atheism Is Not A Religion?

[Hollie]

Well, let's be honest. This thread is another with which to promote your hate and intolerance.

It's been explained to you both repeatedly and tediously that atheism is not a religion. Yet, you continue to screech it is, while unwilling to acknowledge that rational and reasoned conclusions that your polytheistic gods as well as gods of others are inventions of man's imagination.

You really appear quite desperate.

We've been here before, Hollie. I am not attempting to argue in this thread whether or not Atheism is a religion. I keep getting interrupted by adolescent assholes trying to hijack the thread. If you don't understand what is in the OP, don't post in this thread. It is that fucking simple.

I have no hate or intolerance for Atheists. I do think your incessant attacks on those that believe in God are reprehensible, but I do not hate you....and I fail to see how you can interpret a request for a list of benefits to Atheism attributed to its being considered not a religion can be inferred by you to embody hatred.

You see, Hollie, the motive for all the threads started in this forum by Atheists appears to be hatred of religion. I think that's why you may consider this one to be based upon hatred. It is not. I am merely looking for information to help me understand why you object to Atheism being called a religion. What good will come of its being redefined not to be? That you and NYC cannot fathom that simple fact tells me you are seriously lacking in the intelligence so touted by leading Atheists. You two appear to have less intelligence than any 3 year old child.

For someone who claims that he not attempting to argue whether or not Atheism is a religion, you're spending an inordinate amount of time repeating the same nonsense that atheism is a religion.

And BTW way, why are you suggesting that I'm "attacking " your polytheistic gods? I no more attack gods than I attack leprechauns or Bigfoot. If you feel so intimidated by those who conclude your gods are inventions of man, find some better gods.

The mistake theists make is to incorrectly perceive faith as 'fact,' and those free from faith 'rejecting' that 'fact,' manifesting an 'aberration,' when actually the opposite is true: theism is the aberration. Theists such as the OP compound their error by contriving the lie that those free from faith are engaging in a 'belief' that constitutes a 'religion,' which has been demonstrated to be completely false.


Moreover, unlike those free from faith, theists must labor to adhere to sanctioned religious doctrine and dogma, eschew facts and evidence that conflict with that doctrine and dogma, and adhere blindly to that religious doctrine and dogma lest one lapses into 'sin.'


Last, and again, we see the arrogance common to most theists, particularly when their errant and subjective beliefs are challenged by those free from faith, where the theist presumes to dictate to those free from faith that they 'practice' a 'religion,' when those free from faith in fact do not.

Amen!

C Clayton above is wrong again. Atheists believe (based on faith) that there is no god. Therefore his entire post is bullshit.

Atheism is a religion only if every belief is a religion; IOW if you apply the broadest definition/usage of the term 'religion' to the point where, for example,

someone who exercises every day, 'religiously', then becomes a follower of the religion of Exercise, a devout Exercisist,

then sure, you can make some sort of case that Atheism is a religion. But it's a silly meaningless case of fallacious ambiguity that has no place in a serious discussion about religion.

You first statement is errant.

Etymology
religious +‎ -ly

Adverb
religiously (comparative more religiously, superlative most religiously)

1. In the manner of religion.
2. Always.
   It is odd he gets so many cavities since he brushes his teeth religiously, every night, rain or shine.

__________________________
That does not make brushing one's teeth a religion.

fundamentalism definition

A conservative movement in theology among nineteenth- and twentieth-century Christians.Fundamentalists believe that the statements in the Bible are literally true.

Note : Fundamentalists often argue against thetheory of evolution. ( See Scopes trial.)

If you will bother to check back in my posts, I have many times stated that I believe in evolution. Also I've stated explicitly that I don't take the Bible literally. Check back on your own. I'm not doing your research for you, Dummy!

You and NYC are bound be vote liberal. Both of you are soooooooo uninformed! JESUS!

You fundies do get angry when you're called out to account. You are the primary cut and paster of online dictionary definitions so, why so reactive when your cutting and pasting is met with similar cut and paste definitions?

What, you're embracing a double standard?

I didn't argue with your definition, dummy. I just stated that I do not resemble it.

Cutting and pasting has nothing to do with whether one is a fundie Christian or not.

Regarding the OP topic, you seem to think that making up your own definitions is more honest than researching and linking. Get fucking serious! If you'd bother to search for and post backup data to prove your claims, you might be convincing. Perhaps you're just too convinced of your self-sufficient, all inclusive knowledge of everything there is to know.

You're seemingly just pissed off that my linked references defeat your personal definitions of things.

You don't resemble that remark?

My, how reactive do the fundies get when their cutting and pasting of definitions is met with cutting and pasting of definitions. Seems like a double standard to me. Your definitions are met with definitions that refute those you posted.

How sharper than a serpents' tooth is an angry fundie?

 

[asaratis]

Putting aside the question of whether it is or is not a religion, what benefits do Atheists expect to gain by having it declared not to be a religion?

Additionally, what harm comes to Atheists in having it declared to be a religion?

Please do not argue here whether or not Atheism is a religion.

I can only guess that if someone were to turn this around and ask, "Why do Christians insist that Christianity is a religion?", and insist that arguments about whether or not Christianity is a religion were not to be discussed, you would treat it with the scorn or laughter it would deserve.

I certainly would because the premise is ridiculous.

But there's no hypocrisy there in your mind, is there?

Not at all. That Christianity is a religion is a accepted fact.

My question was related to the Atheists claim that "Atheism is NOT a Religion". Specifically I asked for reasons for this claim. This could be paraphrased as "Why do Atheists insist that Atheism is NOT a religion?"

For you to turn it back to me as "Why do Christians insist that Christianity is a religion?" is patently ridiculous. Almost everybody knows that Christianity is a religion.

Had you phrased it...."Why do Christians insist that Christianity is NOT a religion?" it would have been almost as silly because Christians do not claim that Christianity is not a religion. The answer would be simply, "They don't."

There's no hypocrisy in my voice....just laughter!

Everybody knows that the traditions and theology of Christianity were largely stolen from Judaism.

Almost everybody knows that Christianity is a religion, due to the number of dead bodies left in its wake. That a common determining factor of religious faith.

So now the killing of large numbers of people constitutes proof of a religion? You truly are delusional. Defending one's own in the face of enemies sworn to kill you is expected of peoples that do not wish to die. Are you referring to the Crusades?

 

[asaratis]

We've been here before, Hollie. I am not attempting to argue in this thread whether or not Atheism is a religion. I keep getting interrupted by adolescent assholes trying to hijack the thread. If you don't understand what is in the OP, don't post in this thread. It is that fucking simple.

I have no hate or intolerance for Atheists. I do think your incessant attacks on those that believe in God are reprehensible, but I do not hate you....and I fail to see how you can interpret a request for a list of benefits to Atheism attributed to its being considered not a religion can be inferred by you to embody hatred.

You see, Hollie, the motive for all the threads started in this forum by Atheists appears to be hatred of religion. I think that's why you may consider this one to be based upon hatred. It is not. I am merely looking for information to help me understand why you object to Atheism being called a religion. What good will come of its being redefined not to be? That you and NYC cannot fathom that simple fact tells me you are seriously lacking in the intelligence so touted by leading Atheists. You two appear to have less intelligence than any 3 year old child.

For someone who claims that he not attempting to argue whether or not Atheism is a religion, you're spending an inordinate amount of time repeating the same nonsense that atheism is a religion.

And BTW way, why are you suggesting that I'm "attacking " your polytheistic gods? I no more attack gods than I attack leprechauns or Bigfoot. If you feel so intimidated by those who conclude your gods are inventions of man, find some better gods.

The mistake theists make is to incorrectly perceive faith as 'fact,' and those free from faith 'rejecting' that 'fact,' manifesting an 'aberration,' when actually the opposite is true: theism is the aberration. Theists such as the OP compound their error by contriving the lie that those free from faith are engaging in a 'belief' that constitutes a 'religion,' which has been demonstrated to be completely false.


Moreover, unlike those free from faith, theists must labor to adhere to sanctioned religious doctrine and dogma, eschew facts and evidence that conflict with that doctrine and dogma, and adhere blindly to that religious doctrine and dogma lest one lapses into 'sin.'


Last, and again, we see the arrogance common to most theists, particularly when their errant and subjective beliefs are challenged by those free from faith, where the theist presumes to dictate to those free from faith that they 'practice' a 'religion,' when those free from faith in fact do not.

Amen!

C Clayton above is wrong again. Atheists believe (based on faith) that there is no god. Therefore his entire post is bullshit.

You first statement is errant.

Etymology
religious +‎ -ly

Adverb
religiously (comparative more religiously, superlative most religiously)

1. In the manner of religion.
2. Always.
   It is odd he gets so many cavities since he brushes his teeth religiously, every night, rain or shine.

__________________________
That does not make brushing one's teeth a religion.

fundamentalism definition

A conservative movement in theology among nineteenth- and twentieth-century Christians.Fundamentalists believe that the statements in the Bible are literally true.

Note : Fundamentalists often argue against thetheory of evolution. ( See Scopes trial.)

If you will bother to check back in my posts, I have many times stated that I believe in evolution. Also I've stated explicitly that I don't take the Bible literally. Check back on your own. I'm not doing your research for you, Dummy!

You and NYC are bound be vote liberal. Both of you are soooooooo uninformed! JESUS!

You fundies do get angry when you're called out to account. You are the primary cut and paster of online dictionary definitions so, why so reactive when your cutting and pasting is met with similar cut and paste definitions?

What, you're embracing a double standard?

I didn't argue with your definition, dummy. I just stated that I do not resemble it.

Cutting and pasting has nothing to do with whether one is a fundie Christian or not.

Regarding the OP topic, you seem to think that making up your own definitions is more honest than researching and linking. Get fucking serious! If you'd bother to search for and post backup data to prove your claims, you might be convincing. Perhaps you're just too convinced of your self-sufficient, all inclusive knowledge of everything there is to know.

You're seemingly just pissed off that my linked references defeat your personal definitions of things.

You don't resemble that remark?

My, how reactive do the fundies get when their cutting and pasting of definitions is met with cutting and pasting of definitions. Seems like a double standard to me. Your definitions are met with definitions that refute those you posted.

How sharper than a serpents' tooth is an angry fundie?

There you go again with the delusion that I am angry....and that I am a fundie. Both are patently false.

My presentation of the original definition of atheist cannot be trumped by your modern redefinition of it.

Go cry in your beer, dummy!

 

[Hollie]

For someone who claims that he not attempting to argue whether or not Atheism is a religion, you're spending an inordinate amount of time repeating the same nonsense that atheism is a religion.

And BTW way, why are you suggesting that I'm "attacking " your polytheistic gods? I no more attack gods than I attack leprechauns or Bigfoot. If you feel so intimidated by those who conclude your gods are inventions of man, find some better gods.

The mistake theists make is to incorrectly perceive faith as 'fact,' and those free from faith 'rejecting' that 'fact,' manifesting an 'aberration,' when actually the opposite is true: theism is the aberration. Theists such as the OP compound their error by contriving the lie that those free from faith are engaging in a 'belief' that constitutes a 'religion,' which has been demonstrated to be completely false.


Moreover, unlike those free from faith, theists must labor to adhere to sanctioned religious doctrine and dogma, eschew facts and evidence that conflict with that doctrine and dogma, and adhere blindly to that religious doctrine and dogma lest one lapses into 'sin.'


Last, and again, we see the arrogance common to most theists, particularly when their errant and subjective beliefs are challenged by those free from faith, where the theist presumes to dictate to those free from faith that they 'practice' a 'religion,' when those free from faith in fact do not.

Amen!

C Clayton above is wrong again. Atheists believe (based on faith) that there is no god. Therefore his entire post is bullshit.

fundamentalism definition

A conservative movement in theology among nineteenth- and twentieth-century Christians.Fundamentalists believe that the statements in the Bible are literally true.

Note : Fundamentalists often argue against thetheory of evolution. ( See Scopes trial.)

If you will bother to check back in my posts, I have many times stated that I believe in evolution. Also I've stated explicitly that I don't take the Bible literally. Check back on your own. I'm not doing your research for you, Dummy!

You and NYC are bound be vote liberal. Both of you are soooooooo uninformed! JESUS!

You fundies do get angry when you're called out to account. You are the primary cut and paster of online dictionary definitions so, why so reactive when your cutting and pasting is met with similar cut and paste definitions?

What, you're embracing a double standard?

I didn't argue with your definition, dummy. I just stated that I do not resemble it.

Cutting and pasting has nothing to do with whether one is a fundie Christian or not.

Regarding the OP topic, you seem to think that making up your own definitions is more honest than researching and linking. Get fucking serious! If you'd bother to search for and post backup data to prove your claims, you might be convincing. Perhaps you're just too convinced of your self-sufficient, all inclusive knowledge of everything there is to know.

You're seemingly just pissed off that my linked references defeat your personal definitions of things.

You don't resemble that remark?

My, how reactive do the fundies get when their cutting and pasting of definitions is met with cutting and pasting of definitions. Seems like a double standard to me. Your definitions are met with definitions that refute those you posted.

How sharper than a serpents' tooth is an angry fundie?

There you go again with the delusion that I am angry....and that I am a fundie. Both are patently false.

My presentation of the original definition of atheist cannot be trumped by your modern redefinition of it.

Go cry in your beer, dummy!

See, there you go again with your insensate anger. Who else but an angry fundie would spend as much time as you have in this thread and another promoting your anger and resentment at the reviled non-believer.

In contrast to compulsive admonitions of your religion, I'm actually protected by law from you and those like you (the Christian Taliban) and Falwell wannabes who would hope to impose your brand of fundie doctrine on others.

That just makes you crazy-mad, right?

 

[Montrovant]

Putting aside the question of whether it is or is not a religion, what benefits do Atheists expect to gain by having it declared not to be a religion?

Additionally, what harm comes to Atheists in having it declared to be a religion?

Please do not argue here whether or not Atheism is a religion.

I can only guess that if someone were to turn this around and ask, "Why do Christians insist that Christianity is a religion?", and insist that arguments about whether or not Christianity is a religion were not to be discussed, you would treat it with the scorn or laughter it would deserve.

I certainly would because the premise is ridiculous.

But there's no hypocrisy there in your mind, is there?

Not at all. That Christianity is a religion is a accepted fact.

My question was related to the Atheists claim that "Atheism is NOT a Religion". Specifically I asked for reasons for this claim. This could be paraphrased as "Why do Atheists insist that Atheism is NOT a religion?"

For you to turn it back to me as "Why do Christians insist that Christianity is a religion?" is patently ridiculous. Almost everybody knows that Christianity is a religion.

Had you phrased it...."Why do Christians insist that Christianity is NOT a religion?" it would have been almost as silly because Christians do not claim that Christianity is not a religion. The answer would be simply, "They don't."

There's no hypocrisy in my voice....just laughter!

And so we see that the fact Christianity is a religion is an inherent part of your response. Yet, for some reason, you have decided that pointing out atheism is not a religion should be out of bounds in this discussion.

Again, do you not see the hypocrisy in this?

 

[asaratis]

Putting aside the question of whether it is or is not a religion, what benefits do Atheists expect to gain by having it declared not to be a religion?

Additionally, what harm comes to Atheists in having it declared to be a religion?

Please do not argue here whether or not Atheism is a religion.

I can only guess that if someone were to turn this around and ask, "Why do Christians insist that Christianity is a religion?", and insist that arguments about whether or not Christianity is a religion were not to be discussed, you would treat it with the scorn or laughter it would deserve.

I certainly would because the premise is ridiculous.

But there's no hypocrisy there in your mind, is there?

Not at all. That Christianity is a religion is a accepted fact.

My question was related to the Atheists claim that "Atheism is NOT a Religion". Specifically I asked for reasons for this claim. This could be paraphrased as "Why do Atheists insist that Atheism is NOT a religion?"

For you to turn it back to me as "Why do Christians insist that Christianity is a religion?" is patently ridiculous. Almost everybody knows that Christianity is a religion.

Had you phrased it...."Why do Christians insist that Christianity is NOT a religion?" it would have been almost as silly because Christians do not claim that Christianity is not a religion. The answer would be simply, "They don't."

There's no hypocrisy in my voice....just laughter!

And so we see that the fact Christianity is a religion is an inherent part of your response. Yet, for some reason, you have decided that pointing out atheism is not a religion should be out of bounds in this discussion.

Again, do you not see the hypocrisy in this?

In the sense that the OP says to please not argue whether it is or isn't a religion, but rather to focus on the expected benefits of its not being a religion...yes, it is out of bounds here. It is definitely appropriate in Carla's never ending thread titled "Atheism is not a religion". I intended here to talk only of the benefits to Atheists for that posit being proved correct. Even though I think it is not correct, I did not intend to argue it here. There is no hypocrisy in that.

 

[sealybobo]

Would think that if it's considered legally a religion, then the very religions atheists are trying to get out of law will remain there along with themselves. Whereas if they insist it's not a religion, then religions protected by law will be less likely protected in the future.

Thanks for an honest answer. It seems a bit after the fact though. The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals has already said Atheism is legally a religion. I follow you in that if it is a religion, it is entitled to the same protections as other religions. I do not follow the thinking that if it is not a religion that religions currently protected will lose their protection in the future.

Is it part of the dogma of Atheism to remove constitutional protections from religion?

I'm sure there are multiple end-games from atheist groups. But you gotta assume if an atheist is legally activistic about it, they long to have religions removed from protected status eventually. Otherwise why not just be content in your disbelief and let other be content in their beliefs?

I'm areligious. I'm against all religions, but not deities. I'll believe in a deity when I shake it's hand. But religions are from people, not deities. As such, and devoid of scientific support for their assertions I'm against them. But I'm content to remain low-stress and not meddle in other people's delusions. That's a fulltime job and not one I'm likely to get paid for.

You ask why so I'll try to answer best I can. For one reason, I truly don't think this lie is good for people. I know religions do a lot of good but they also do a lot of bad, and you may agree or disagree with that, but it is my opinion and why I care. I think religion is unnecessary and holds people back mentally/scientifically. I watch those religious shows, see how religion is used to control people, see how slave owners and Pharoahs and Kings used it to control the masses, I talk to hypocrite theists who confirm religion doesn't necessary work, notice that there are 999 other religions all claiming they are the truth and the other ones are not, etc. So these are reasons why I speak up.

2. A lie is a lie no matter how good it makes people feel.

3. I don't like being told I'm going to hell.

4. Did you see the poll that the least electable person was the atheist? A pot smoking phylanderer has a better chance. I'm here to change perception. I remember being a theist. I thought atheist were the devil. Now I know better and I think others should too.

5. It is unnecessary and not even all that effective. Lots of religious assholes and look how religion makes gays feel guilty about themselves.

Anyways, that's my feelings, and I don't necessarily care if they get the protected status. They should have to prove their charitable works though. Do churches have to give so much to charity? They should. Otherwise it leaves the door open to all the con artists.

I watch that guy on tv ask people to send in $70 x 10 months and a miracle will happen. I wonder how much of that goes to charity and they don't pay taxes?

And if there is a god and he actually cares about you he would reward your intelligence.

I hear you on USMB all the time stating your opinion. Why do you do it? Aren't you meddling in other people's delusions just by posting the things you write? I agree with the things you write, I'm just saying. Don't act like you don't get some satisfaction explaining to people why you think they are wrong. Why do you do it?

You're coming close now. Thank you.

To keep from using a shitload of quote commands, the bold text below is copied from your post. My replies are in lower case.


You ask why so I'll try to answer best I can. For one reason, I truly don't think this lie is good for people. I know religions do a lot of good but they also do a lot of bad, and you may agree or disagree with that, but it is my opinion and why I care. I think religion is unnecessary and holds people back mentally/scientifically. I watch those religious shows, see how religion is used to control people, see how slave owners and Pharoahs and Kings used it to control the masses, I talk to hypocrite theists who confirm religion doesn't necessary work, notice that there are 999 other religions all claiming they are the truth and the other ones are not, etc. So these are reasons why I speak up.
Okay. I agree with you here. Many evangelical preachers and televangelists are off their rockers. Benny Hinn is my prime example of ostentatious bullshit. The "prayer clothes", the staged "healings", the limos, the diamond studded Rolex watches, the golden cathedrals, the silk suits and such are all bullshit.



2. A lie is a lie no matter how good it makes people feel.
Again, I agree.

3. I don't like being told I'm going to hell.
I'm almost certain that the dogma of an Atheist religion would not include the existence of hell or any afterlife whatsoever. If you don't believe in a deity, how can you believe in a hell or a heaven? Not to worry. An Atheist Minister (and they do exist) would not say that you're going to hell.

4. Did you see the poll that the least electable person was the atheist? A pot smoking phylanderer has a better chance. I'm here to change perception. I remember being a theist. I thought atheist were the devil. Now I know better and I think others should too.
I haven't seen the poll. Be patient though. We've already elected a black Muslim sympathizer if not a black Muslim.

Perhaps you were misled by a radical, fire and brimstone Baptist preacher. I know better than that myself.

I grew up a Methodist, married a gem of a Baptist girl, saw no sense in our belonging to separate denominations and became a Baptist. After several years of attending church, I was ordained a Baptist deacon, got involved in the Evangelism Explosion wherein we'd go out in pairs and try to convince no-churchgoers to join our church. The instructions were to always ask the questions to the family member that was considered more likely to say "yes". I questioned the leader of the group by asking if this was simply a ploy to manipulate the minds of the other members. He answered affirmatively. I quit the program. I later divorced my wife and became the black sheep of a large Baptist clan of what you might call "bible thumpers". I was also the black sheep of the local church...one which had its fair share of ostentatious trappings. I'm still a Christian but I do not try to push my religious beliefs on others.

5. It is unnecessary and not even all that effective. Lots of religious assholes and look how religion makes gays feel guilty about themselves.
By the same token, gays are lovingly accepted in many churches. That is likely so in all of the existing Atheist churches.

Anyways, that's my feelings, and I don't necessarily care if they get the protected status. They should have to prove their charitable works though. Do churches have to give so much to charity? They should. Otherwise it leaves the door open to all the con artists.
True. There have been all too many corrupt church leaders piling up cash and possessions for themselves, turning their non-profit church into their own personal cash cow. I think churches should be required to give all but the costs of real estate, maintenance thereof and negotiated staff salaries to charities, either philanthropic or medical research charities or directly to the homeless and needy people living around their own community.

I watch that guy on tv ask people to send in $70 x 10 months and a miracle will happen. I wonder how much of that goes to charity and they don't pay taxes?
Again I concur. Asking people to donate any particular amount is ludicrous. There's a parable about that in the NT, I think...where a poor beggar gave all she had...or something like that. I've also heard of some preachers that will say to a member of their congregation something like "I had a revelation from God last night and He said you should donate $500.00." This is nothing more than extortion.

One of the existing Atheist churches has a donation block on their website complete with the little credit card symbols for Visa, Mastercard and Amex. They say that you are welcome to donate but they don't expect you to.

And if there is a god and he actually cares about you he would reward your intelligence.
Not sure about that. I've heard that God takes care of fools and babies. I interpret that to mean that NOBODY is going to hell when this shit is over.

I hear you on USMB all the time stating your opinion. Why do you do it? Aren't you meddling in other people's delusions just by posting the things you write? I agree with the things you write, I'm just saying. Don't act like you don't get some satisfaction explaining to people why you think they are wrong. Why do you do it?
I do post a lot of opinion on USMB. Some of what I post is pure and simply factual. A lot of it is conjecture and speculation. Some of that is to argue against opposing political views. Some of it is to express my considered opinion regarding something that might be unsubstantiated by the poster to whom I reply.

1. I don't have to believe in hell to be annoyed by people who tell me I'm going to hell. Funny I was thinking about this on the way in to work today just how heavily religion relies on guilt. You don't think I sometimes feel guilty or question myself on this god thing? Then I quickly rationalize any issue I have and go about being an atheist.

I even question my position on whether or not religion, regardless of it is true or not, if it is good or bad overall. I know religions do a lot of good too. But they also do a lot of bad and does it even matter? If it is not true, its time for the human race to evolve beyond believing in fairy tales. You can't be that smart of a species if you are so superstitious that you believe the unbelievable, or because you can't imagine any other way. Best to admit you don't know and keep on looking. Plus, I know I'm good even though I don't believe in god so I don't believe it is necessary. If it makes you feel good I'm happy for you.

But I suspect you guys aren't on USMB because you are 100% sure. You can't be. You can't read all our replies and say you are 100% sure.

PS. From now on I think all theists should have to say what their denomination is when they reply. I need to know why they believe in god. Because if they believe the moses, noah, adam & eve stories, then they are just crazy. Or if you are a christian who doesn't take those stories literally, do you also not take the virgin birth, miracle, rose from the dead stories literally either? This is important.

Because a lot of theists on USMB are generic god believers. Or some of them are jews or mormons or muslims. I need to know what crazy I'm dealing with otherwise you guys think you caught us in a mistake when it is hard to keep your fairy tales straight. Last night I saw on a religious game show that Noah lived 350 years after the arc? Is that true?

 

[martybegan]

Because it's not you jackalope it's the absence of religion. It is stuff like this that made me take a hiatus from this site.

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

First of all, "an active belief that there is no deity" isn't what makes one an atheist. Not being a theist is what makes one an atheist. And agnosticism isn't "not caring" or even "not sure" - it's the observation that the existence of gods isn't a provable proposition; that it's inherent in the nature of the concept that it's unprovable either way. You can be an agnostic and a true believer at the same time, as well as an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.

As far as what is gained or lost in accepting these labels: not much. It's usually only an issue in the context of particular political agendas. The "Intelligent Design" movement, for example, seeks to have atheism classified as a religion in their efforts to "level the playing field" with theistic origin accounts. It's sort of a tortured logic, but my understanding of their strategy is to claim that non-theistic origins accounts (e.g. evolution) are just as "religious" as ID is, and should be taught side by side with religious myths in our schools. We all stand to lose a great deal when faced with such idiocy.

Considering my definitions are far simpler and shorter, I tend to think I am spot on in my observation. When you have to elaborate this much to make a point, its usually to stretch a point, not to make it.

 

[sealybobo]

....<SNIP>...

All you care about is why we insist? Because we aren't and it's annoying being compared with people who believe in unbelievable stories when all we do is simply not believe those stories. My new religion is to hate you.

Carry on with the hatred. It does not hurt me one bit....just makes you a bitter person.

Actually, it is you guys who get angry. We actually laugh. I thought about how I tried to have these conversations with friends when I first became an atheist and the responses I got were.

a. I agree there is no god
b. I believe in god but don't follow any organized religion
c. You're going to hell I don't to talk about it.

The only ones you can't talk to are the theists who belong to a particular religion. Actually the Mormon's and Jehova's I know don't get heated but traditional christians sure do. Why so angry?

This is why we come to talk on USMB. Theists in real life are such pussies and big babies.

But I don't hate you. I may think you are dumb or brainwashed or a liar. So the only way I would "hate" you is is you knew it was a lie and you were using it to take advantage of people.

 

[dblack]

Because it's not you jackalope it's the absence of religion. It is stuff like this that made me take a hiatus from this site.

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

First of all, "an active belief that there is no deity" isn't what makes one an atheist. Not being a theist is what makes one an atheist. And agnosticism isn't "not caring" or even "not sure" - it's the observation that the existence of gods isn't a provable proposition; that it's inherent in the nature of the concept that it's unprovable either way. You can be an agnostic and a true believer at the same time, as well as an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.

As far as what is gained or lost in accepting these labels: not much. It's usually only an issue in the context of particular political agendas. The "Intelligent Design" movement, for example, seeks to have atheism classified as a religion in their efforts to "level the playing field" with theistic origin accounts. It's sort of a tortured logic, but my understanding of their strategy is to claim that non-theistic origins accounts (e.g. evolution) are just as "religious" as ID is, and should be taught side by side with religious myths in our schools. We all stand to lose a great deal when faced with such idiocy.

Considering my definitions are far simpler and shorter, I tend to think I am spot on in my observation. When you have to elaborate this much to make a point, its usually to stretch a point, not to make it.

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

 

[martybegan]

Because it's not you jackalope it's the absence of religion. It is stuff like this that made me take a hiatus from this site.

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

First of all, "an active belief that there is no deity" isn't what makes one an atheist. Not being a theist is what makes one an atheist. And agnosticism isn't "not caring" or even "not sure" - it's the observation that the existence of gods isn't a provable proposition; that it's inherent in the nature of the concept that it's unprovable either way. You can be an agnostic and a true believer at the same time, as well as an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.

As far as what is gained or lost in accepting these labels: not much. It's usually only an issue in the context of particular political agendas. The "Intelligent Design" movement, for example, seeks to have atheism classified as a religion in their efforts to "level the playing field" with theistic origin accounts. It's sort of a tortured logic, but my understanding of their strategy is to claim that non-theistic origins accounts (e.g. evolution) are just as "religious" as ID is, and should be taught side by side with religious myths in our schools. We all stand to lose a great deal when faced with such idiocy.

Considering my definitions are far simpler and shorter, I tend to think I am spot on in my observation. When you have to elaborate this much to make a point, its usually to stretch a point, not to make it.

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

 

[martybegan]

Would think that if it's considered legally a religion, then the very religions atheists are trying to get out of law will remain there along with themselves. Whereas if they insist it's not a religion, then religions protected by law will be less likely protected in the future.

Thanks for an honest answer. It seems a bit after the fact though. The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals has already said Atheism is legally a religion. I follow you in that if it is a religion, it is entitled to the same protections as other religions. I do not follow the thinking that if it is not a religion that religions currently protected will lose their protection in the future.

Is it part of the dogma of Atheism to remove constitutional protections from religion?

I'm sure there are multiple end-games from atheist groups. But you gotta assume if an atheist is legally activistic about it, they long to have religions removed from protected status eventually. Otherwise why not just be content in your disbelief and let other be content in their beliefs?

I'm areligious. I'm against all religions, but not deities. I'll believe in a deity when I shake it's hand. But religions are from people, not deities. As such, and devoid of scientific support for their assertions I'm against them. But I'm content to remain low-stress and not meddle in other people's delusions. That's a fulltime job and not one I'm likely to get paid for.

So basically you lack faith.

 

[martybegan]

Because it's not you jackalope it's the absence of religion. It is stuff like this that made me take a hiatus from this site.

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

"An active belief"?? That's heelarious.

lol, if atheism is a religion then the constitutional separation of church and state would dictate that both prayer and not saying a prayer would have to be banned from schools.

Whats so funny about it?

Atheism is a belief structure, thus active belief there is no God must be treated the same as believing there is one.

 

[sealybobo]

Because it's not you jackalope it's the absence of religion. It is stuff like this that made me take a hiatus from this site.

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

First of all, "an active belief that there is no deity" isn't what makes one an atheist. Not being a theist is what makes one an atheist. And agnosticism isn't "not caring" or even "not sure" - it's the observation that the existence of gods isn't a provable proposition; that it's inherent in the nature of the concept that it's unprovable either way. You can be an agnostic and a true believer at the same time, as well as an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.

As far as what is gained or lost in accepting these labels: not much. It's usually only an issue in the context of particular political agendas. The "Intelligent Design" movement, for example, seeks to have atheism classified as a religion in their efforts to "level the playing field" with theistic origin accounts. It's sort of a tortured logic, but my understanding of their strategy is to claim that non-theistic origins accounts (e.g. evolution) are just as "religious" as ID is, and should be taught side by side with religious myths in our schools. We all stand to lose a great deal when faced with such idiocy.

Considering my definitions are far simpler and shorter, I tend to think I am spot on in my observation. When you have to elaborate this much to make a point, its usually to stretch a point, not to make it.

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

I use to be Greek Orthodox. That is a religion. Then I believed in god but not organized religion so I still considered myself a theist although I don't know what religion you would call that?

Then I became an atheist but quickly realized that the best position to take is an agnostic atheist. I am 99% sure all the man made stories of god are made up but who knows what is on the other side of a black hole. I see no reason to worship the abraham god or any other god. If there is something that created all that we see, likely it doesn't care about each and every one of us. That just all seems too man made.

So basically if there is a god, like the cow you are milking right now, or the cow you are ready to slaughter, it doesn't matter. What religion does the cow belong to? Because that is the same religion I belong to. Wow, I just thought of that and I'm going to see what people reply.

I belong to the same religion your dog belongs to.

 

[martybegan]

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

First of all, "an active belief that there is no deity" isn't what makes one an atheist. Not being a theist is what makes one an atheist. And agnosticism isn't "not caring" or even "not sure" - it's the observation that the existence of gods isn't a provable proposition; that it's inherent in the nature of the concept that it's unprovable either way. You can be an agnostic and a true believer at the same time, as well as an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.

As far as what is gained or lost in accepting these labels: not much. It's usually only an issue in the context of particular political agendas. The "Intelligent Design" movement, for example, seeks to have atheism classified as a religion in their efforts to "level the playing field" with theistic origin accounts. It's sort of a tortured logic, but my understanding of their strategy is to claim that non-theistic origins accounts (e.g. evolution) are just as "religious" as ID is, and should be taught side by side with religious myths in our schools. We all stand to lose a great deal when faced with such idiocy.

Considering my definitions are far simpler and shorter, I tend to think I am spot on in my observation. When you have to elaborate this much to make a point, its usually to stretch a point, not to make it.

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

I use to be Greek Orthodox. That is a religion. Then I believed in god but not organized religion so I still considered myself a theist although I don't know what religion you would call that?

Then I became an atheist but quickly realized that the best position to take is an agnostic atheist. I am 99% sure all the man made stories of god are made up but who knows what is on the other side of a black hole. I see no reason to worship the abraham god or any other god. If there is something that created all that we see, likely it doesn't care about each and every one of us. That just all seems too man made.

So basically if there is a god, like the cow you are milking right now, or the cow you are ready to slaughter, it doesn't matter. What religion does the cow belong to? Because that is the same religion I belong to. Wow, I just thought of that and I'm going to see what people reply.

I belong to the same religion your dog belongs to.

So you are comparing yourself to a non-sentient being?

The main question is, are you 100% sure (to yourself) there is no God, and do you actively go out and try to convince others of it, or more importantly, do you feel the compelling need to quash any displays of other religions that are in public?

 

[sealybobo]

First of all, "an active belief that there is no deity" isn't what makes one an atheist. Not being a theist is what makes one an atheist. And agnosticism isn't "not caring" or even "not sure" - it's the observation that the existence of gods isn't a provable proposition; that it's inherent in the nature of the concept that it's unprovable either way. You can be an agnostic and a true believer at the same time, as well as an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.

As far as what is gained or lost in accepting these labels: not much. It's usually only an issue in the context of particular political agendas. The "Intelligent Design" movement, for example, seeks to have atheism classified as a religion in their efforts to "level the playing field" with theistic origin accounts. It's sort of a tortured logic, but my understanding of their strategy is to claim that non-theistic origins accounts (e.g. evolution) are just as "religious" as ID is, and should be taught side by side with religious myths in our schools. We all stand to lose a great deal when faced with such idiocy.

Considering my definitions are far simpler and shorter, I tend to think I am spot on in my observation. When you have to elaborate this much to make a point, its usually to stretch a point, not to make it.

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

I use to be Greek Orthodox. That is a religion. Then I believed in god but not organized religion so I still considered myself a theist although I don't know what religion you would call that?

Then I became an atheist but quickly realized that the best position to take is an agnostic atheist. I am 99% sure all the man made stories of god are made up but who knows what is on the other side of a black hole. I see no reason to worship the abraham god or any other god. If there is something that created all that we see, likely it doesn't care about each and every one of us. That just all seems too man made.

So basically if there is a god, like the cow you are milking right now, or the cow you are ready to slaughter, it doesn't matter. What religion does the cow belong to? Because that is the same religion I belong to. Wow, I just thought of that and I'm going to see what people reply.

I belong to the same religion your dog belongs to.

So you are comparing yourself to a non-sentient being?

The main question is, are you 100% sure (to yourself) there is no God, and do you actively go out and try to convince others of it, or more importantly, do you feel the compelling need to quash any displays of other religions that are in public?

I am 99.999% sure no god exists. And like I said, if there is something intelligent that created us, it doesn't care about you anymore than it does a cow or maggot. That's just your sentient mind's wishful thinking. Very imaginative, creative. Human's hate not knowing things and we want to know what happens when we die. We made all this up.

I'm 100% sure the Jesus or Mohammad gods are fake.

I don't fuck with theists anymore in my personal life. I've lost a couple friends who were strict catholic and one was a Jew for Jesus. I can't believe all the Jew stuff he talked to us at my poker games and then I find out his wife made him a Jew for Jesus. LOL. Anyways, they take it too personally so I stopped talking to anyone about it other than here on USMB. Occasionally I'll ask someone if they believe but if they say for sure they do I keep my mouth shut. If they are at all doubtful, I may have the talk with them. But I'm not annoying like born agains.

For Easter my Greek orthodox church marches with candles into Greektown in Detroit from the church in celebration. I love the ceremony. We have the right. What do you mean "public"? If you mean The Commons, god doesn't belong in the Commons no. Take god out of city hall.

 

[martybegan]

Considering my definitions are far simpler and shorter, I tend to think I am spot on in my observation. When you have to elaborate this much to make a point, its usually to stretch a point, not to make it.

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

I use to be Greek Orthodox. That is a religion. Then I believed in god but not organized religion so I still considered myself a theist although I don't know what religion you would call that?

Then I became an atheist but quickly realized that the best position to take is an agnostic atheist. I am 99% sure all the man made stories of god are made up but who knows what is on the other side of a black hole. I see no reason to worship the abraham god or any other god. If there is something that created all that we see, likely it doesn't care about each and every one of us. That just all seems too man made.

So basically if there is a god, like the cow you are milking right now, or the cow you are ready to slaughter, it doesn't matter. What religion does the cow belong to? Because that is the same religion I belong to. Wow, I just thought of that and I'm going to see what people reply.

I belong to the same religion your dog belongs to.

So you are comparing yourself to a non-sentient being?

The main question is, are you 100% sure (to yourself) there is no God, and do you actively go out and try to convince others of it, or more importantly, do you feel the compelling need to quash any displays of other religions that are in public?

I am 99.999% sure no god exists. And like I said, if there is something intelligent that created us, it doesn't care about you anymore than it does a cow or maggot. That's just your sentient mind's wishful thinking. Very imaginative, creative. Human's hate not knowing things and we want to know what happens when we die. We made all this up.

I'm 100% sure the Jesus or Mohammad gods are fake.

I don't fuck with theists anymore in my personal life. I've lost a couple friends who were strict catholic and one was a Jew for Jesus. I can't believe all the Jew stuff he talked to us at my poker games and then I find out his wife made him a Jew for Jesus. LOL. Anyways, they take it too personally so I stopped talking to anyone about it other than here on USMB. Occasionally I'll ask someone if they believe but if they say for sure they do I keep my mouth shut. If they are at all doubtful, I may have the talk with them. But I'm not annoying like born agains.

For Easter my Greek orthodox church marches with candles into Greektown in Detroit from the church in celebration. I love the ceremony. We have the right. What do you mean "public"? If you mean The Commons, god doesn't belong in the Commons no. Take god out of city hall.

So government has to be hostile to religion?

 

[sealybobo]

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

I use to be Greek Orthodox. That is a religion. Then I believed in god but not organized religion so I still considered myself a theist although I don't know what religion you would call that?

Then I became an atheist but quickly realized that the best position to take is an agnostic atheist. I am 99% sure all the man made stories of god are made up but who knows what is on the other side of a black hole. I see no reason to worship the abraham god or any other god. If there is something that created all that we see, likely it doesn't care about each and every one of us. That just all seems too man made.

So basically if there is a god, like the cow you are milking right now, or the cow you are ready to slaughter, it doesn't matter. What religion does the cow belong to? Because that is the same religion I belong to. Wow, I just thought of that and I'm going to see what people reply.

I belong to the same religion your dog belongs to.

So you are comparing yourself to a non-sentient being?

The main question is, are you 100% sure (to yourself) there is no God, and do you actively go out and try to convince others of it, or more importantly, do you feel the compelling need to quash any displays of other religions that are in public?

I am 99.999% sure no god exists. And like I said, if there is something intelligent that created us, it doesn't care about you anymore than it does a cow or maggot. That's just your sentient mind's wishful thinking. Very imaginative, creative. Human's hate not knowing things and we want to know what happens when we die. We made all this up.

I'm 100% sure the Jesus or Mohammad gods are fake.

I don't fuck with theists anymore in my personal life. I've lost a couple friends who were strict catholic and one was a Jew for Jesus. I can't believe all the Jew stuff he talked to us at my poker games and then I find out his wife made him a Jew for Jesus. LOL. Anyways, they take it too personally so I stopped talking to anyone about it other than here on USMB. Occasionally I'll ask someone if they believe but if they say for sure they do I keep my mouth shut. If they are at all doubtful, I may have the talk with them. But I'm not annoying like born agains.

For Easter my Greek orthodox church marches with candles into Greektown in Detroit from the church in celebration. I love the ceremony. We have the right. What do you mean "public"? If you mean The Commons, god doesn't belong in the Commons no. Take god out of city hall.

So government has to be hostile to religion?

No, it just doesn't belong. Notice my church went and marched down the street on our own time? We didn't need the government to help us celebrate Easter. I thought you righties liked less/smaller government? Do you really want to pay a government worker to hang up a xmas tree? Is that the role of our government? Privatize religion!

 

[sealybobo]

First of all, "an active belief that there is no deity" isn't what makes one an atheist. Not being a theist is what makes one an atheist. And agnosticism isn't "not caring" or even "not sure" - it's the observation that the existence of gods isn't a provable proposition; that it's inherent in the nature of the concept that it's unprovable either way. You can be an agnostic and a true believer at the same time, as well as an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.

As far as what is gained or lost in accepting these labels: not much. It's usually only an issue in the context of particular political agendas. The "Intelligent Design" movement, for example, seeks to have atheism classified as a religion in their efforts to "level the playing field" with theistic origin accounts. It's sort of a tortured logic, but my understanding of their strategy is to claim that non-theistic origins accounts (e.g. evolution) are just as "religious" as ID is, and should be taught side by side with religious myths in our schools. We all stand to lose a great deal when faced with such idiocy.

Considering my definitions are far simpler and shorter, I tend to think I am spot on in my observation. When you have to elaborate this much to make a point, its usually to stretch a point, not to make it.

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

I use to be Greek Orthodox. That is a religion. Then I believed in god but not organized religion so I still considered myself a theist although I don't know what religion you would call that?

Then I became an atheist but quickly realized that the best position to take is an agnostic atheist. I am 99% sure all the man made stories of god are made up but who knows what is on the other side of a black hole. I see no reason to worship the abraham god or any other god. If there is something that created all that we see, likely it doesn't care about each and every one of us. That just all seems too man made.

So basically if there is a god, like the cow you are milking right now, or the cow you are ready to slaughter, it doesn't matter. What religion does the cow belong to? Because that is the same religion I belong to. Wow, I just thought of that and I'm going to see what people reply.

I belong to the same religion your dog belongs to.

So you are comparing yourself to a non-sentient being?

The main question is, are you 100% sure (to yourself) there is no God, and do you actively go out and try to convince others of it, or more importantly, do you feel the compelling need to quash any displays of other religions that are in public?

I looked up the word sentient. You don't think a cow can feel or perceive things? I think this position on why humans go to heaven but dogs and maggots don't is a very arrogant and ignorant one. This is why evil christians own zoos and circus' and treat cows inhumanly at slaughter houses. Just one other reason why I think religion needs to go.

 

[martybegan]

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

I use to be Greek Orthodox. That is a religion. Then I believed in god but not organized religion so I still considered myself a theist although I don't know what religion you would call that?

Then I became an atheist but quickly realized that the best position to take is an agnostic atheist. I am 99% sure all the man made stories of god are made up but who knows what is on the other side of a black hole. I see no reason to worship the abraham god or any other god. If there is something that created all that we see, likely it doesn't care about each and every one of us. That just all seems too man made.

So basically if there is a god, like the cow you are milking right now, or the cow you are ready to slaughter, it doesn't matter. What religion does the cow belong to? Because that is the same religion I belong to. Wow, I just thought of that and I'm going to see what people reply.

I belong to the same religion your dog belongs to.

So you are comparing yourself to a non-sentient being?

The main question is, are you 100% sure (to yourself) there is no God, and do you actively go out and try to convince others of it, or more importantly, do you feel the compelling need to quash any displays of other religions that are in public?

I am 99.999% sure no god exists. And like I said, if there is something intelligent that created us, it doesn't care about you anymore than it does a cow or maggot. That's just your sentient mind's wishful thinking. Very imaginative, creative. Human's hate not knowing things and we want to know what happens when we die. We made all this up.

I'm 100% sure the Jesus or Mohammad gods are fake.

I don't fuck with theists anymore in my personal life. I've lost a couple friends who were strict catholic and one was a Jew for Jesus. I can't believe all the Jew stuff he talked to us at my poker games and then I find out his wife made him a Jew for Jesus. LOL. Anyways, they take it too personally so I stopped talking to anyone about it other than here on USMB. Occasionally I'll ask someone if they believe but if they say for sure they do I keep my mouth shut. If they are at all doubtful, I may have the talk with them. But I'm not annoying like born agains.

For Easter my Greek orthodox church marches with candles into Greektown in Detroit from the church in celebration. I love the ceremony. We have the right. What do you mean "public"? If you mean The Commons, god doesn't belong in the Commons no. Take god out of city hall.

So government has to be hostile to religion?

No, it just doesn't belong. Notice my church went and marched down the street on our own time? We didn't need the government to help us celebrate Easter. I thought you righties liked less/smaller government? Do you really want to pay a government worker to hang up a xmas tree? Is that the role of our government? Privatize religion!

Technically an Atheist Group could argue that since government paid for the street, it should be free from religion as well. is that what you want?

And in most cases these commons displays were paid for privately, put up privately. No government $$ went towards them, so that kills that argument.