Why Do Atheists Insist That Atheism Is Not A Religion?

[martybegan]

Considering my definitions are far simpler and shorter, I tend to think I am spot on in my observation. When you have to elaborate this much to make a point, its usually to stretch a point, not to make it.

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

I use to be Greek Orthodox. That is a religion. Then I believed in god but not organized religion so I still considered myself a theist although I don't know what religion you would call that?

Then I became an atheist but quickly realized that the best position to take is an agnostic atheist. I am 99% sure all the man made stories of god are made up but who knows what is on the other side of a black hole. I see no reason to worship the abraham god or any other god. If there is something that created all that we see, likely it doesn't care about each and every one of us. That just all seems too man made.

So basically if there is a god, like the cow you are milking right now, or the cow you are ready to slaughter, it doesn't matter. What religion does the cow belong to? Because that is the same religion I belong to. Wow, I just thought of that and I'm going to see what people reply.

I belong to the same religion your dog belongs to.

So you are comparing yourself to a non-sentient being?

The main question is, are you 100% sure (to yourself) there is no God, and do you actively go out and try to convince others of it, or more importantly, do you feel the compelling need to quash any displays of other religions that are in public?

I looked up the word sentient. You don't think a cow can feel or perceive things? I think this position on why humans go to heaven but dogs and maggots don't is a very arrogant and ignorant one. This is why evil christians own zoos and circus' and treat cows inhumanly at slaughter houses. Just one other reason why I think religion needs to go.

Yes, Atheists like Stalin and Pol Pot treated people poorly, but they were enemies of the revolution, so that's OK...

 

[asaratis]

Would think that if it's considered legally a religion, then the very religions atheists are trying to get out of law will remain there along with themselves. Whereas if they insist it's not a religion, then religions protected by law will be less likely protected in the future.

Thanks for an honest answer. It seems a bit after the fact though. The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals has already said Atheism is legally a religion. I follow you in that if it is a religion, it is entitled to the same protections as other religions. I do not follow the thinking that if it is not a religion that religions currently protected will lose their protection in the future.

Is it part of the dogma of Atheism to remove constitutional protections from religion?

I'm sure there are multiple end-games from atheist groups. But you gotta assume if an atheist is legally activistic about it, they long to have religions removed from protected status eventually. Otherwise why not just be content in your disbelief and let other be content in their beliefs?

I'm areligious. I'm against all religions, but not deities. I'll believe in a deity when I shake it's hand. But religions are from people, not deities. As such, and devoid of scientific support for their assertions I'm against them. But I'm content to remain low-stress and not meddle in other people's delusions. That's a fulltime job and not one I'm likely to get paid for.

You ask why so I'll try to answer best I can. For one reason, I truly don't think this lie is good for people. I know religions do a lot of good but they also do a lot of bad, and you may agree or disagree with that, but it is my opinion and why I care. I think religion is unnecessary and holds people back mentally/scientifically. I watch those religious shows, see how religion is used to control people, see how slave owners and Pharoahs and Kings used it to control the masses, I talk to hypocrite theists who confirm religion doesn't necessary work, notice that there are 999 other religions all claiming they are the truth and the other ones are not, etc. So these are reasons why I speak up.

2. A lie is a lie no matter how good it makes people feel.

3. I don't like being told I'm going to hell.

4. Did you see the poll that the least electable person was the atheist? A pot smoking phylanderer has a better chance. I'm here to change perception. I remember being a theist. I thought atheist were the devil. Now I know better and I think others should too.

5. It is unnecessary and not even all that effective. Lots of religious assholes and look how religion makes gays feel guilty about themselves.

Anyways, that's my feelings, and I don't necessarily care if they get the protected status. They should have to prove their charitable works though. Do churches have to give so much to charity? They should. Otherwise it leaves the door open to all the con artists.

I watch that guy on tv ask people to send in $70 x 10 months and a miracle will happen. I wonder how much of that goes to charity and they don't pay taxes?

And if there is a god and he actually cares about you he would reward your intelligence.

I hear you on USMB all the time stating your opinion. Why do you do it? Aren't you meddling in other people's delusions just by posting the things you write? I agree with the things you write, I'm just saying. Don't act like you don't get some satisfaction explaining to people why you think they are wrong. Why do you do it?

You're coming close now. Thank you.

To keep from using a shitload of quote commands, the bold text below is copied from your post. My replies are in lower case.


You ask why so I'll try to answer best I can. For one reason, I truly don't think this lie is good for people. I know religions do a lot of good but they also do a lot of bad, and you may agree or disagree with that, but it is my opinion and why I care. I think religion is unnecessary and holds people back mentally/scientifically. I watch those religious shows, see how religion is used to control people, see how slave owners and Pharoahs and Kings used it to control the masses, I talk to hypocrite theists who confirm religion doesn't necessary work, notice that there are 999 other religions all claiming they are the truth and the other ones are not, etc. So these are reasons why I speak up.
Okay. I agree with you here. Many evangelical preachers and televangelists are off their rockers. Benny Hinn is my prime example of ostentatious bullshit. The "prayer clothes", the staged "healings", the limos, the diamond studded Rolex watches, the golden cathedrals, the silk suits and such are all bullshit.



2. A lie is a lie no matter how good it makes people feel.
Again, I agree.

3. I don't like being told I'm going to hell.
I'm almost certain that the dogma of an Atheist religion would not include the existence of hell or any afterlife whatsoever. If you don't believe in a deity, how can you believe in a hell or a heaven? Not to worry. An Atheist Minister (and they do exist) would not say that you're going to hell.

4. Did you see the poll that the least electable person was the atheist? A pot smoking phylanderer has a better chance. I'm here to change perception. I remember being a theist. I thought atheist were the devil. Now I know better and I think others should too.
I haven't seen the poll. Be patient though. We've already elected a black Muslim sympathizer if not a black Muslim.

Perhaps you were misled by a radical, fire and brimstone Baptist preacher. I know better than that myself.

I grew up a Methodist, married a gem of a Baptist girl, saw no sense in our belonging to separate denominations and became a Baptist. After several years of attending church, I was ordained a Baptist deacon, got involved in the Evangelism Explosion wherein we'd go out in pairs and try to convince no-churchgoers to join our church. The instructions were to always ask the questions to the family member that was considered more likely to say "yes". I questioned the leader of the group by asking if this was simply a ploy to manipulate the minds of the other members. He answered affirmatively. I quit the program. I later divorced my wife and became the black sheep of a large Baptist clan of what you might call "bible thumpers". I was also the black sheep of the local church...one which had its fair share of ostentatious trappings. I'm still a Christian but I do not try to push my religious beliefs on others.

5. It is unnecessary and not even all that effective. Lots of religious assholes and look how religion makes gays feel guilty about themselves.
By the same token, gays are lovingly accepted in many churches. That is likely so in all of the existing Atheist churches.

Anyways, that's my feelings, and I don't necessarily care if they get the protected status. They should have to prove their charitable works though. Do churches have to give so much to charity? They should. Otherwise it leaves the door open to all the con artists.
True. There have been all too many corrupt church leaders piling up cash and possessions for themselves, turning their non-profit church into their own personal cash cow. I think churches should be required to give all but the costs of real estate, maintenance thereof and negotiated staff salaries to charities, either philanthropic or medical research charities or directly to the homeless and needy people living around their own community.

I watch that guy on tv ask people to send in $70 x 10 months and a miracle will happen. I wonder how much of that goes to charity and they don't pay taxes?
Again I concur. Asking people to donate any particular amount is ludicrous. There's a parable about that in the NT, I think...where a poor beggar gave all she had...or something like that. I've also heard of some preachers that will say to a member of their congregation something like "I had a revelation from God last night and He said you should donate $500.00." This is nothing more than extortion.

One of the existing Atheist churches has a donation block on their website complete with the little credit card symbols for Visa, Mastercard and Amex. They say that you are welcome to donate but they don't expect you to.

And if there is a god and he actually cares about you he would reward your intelligence.
Not sure about that. I've heard that God takes care of fools and babies. I interpret that to mean that NOBODY is going to hell when this shit is over.

I hear you on USMB all the time stating your opinion. Why do you do it? Aren't you meddling in other people's delusions just by posting the things you write? I agree with the things you write, I'm just saying. Don't act like you don't get some satisfaction explaining to people why you think they are wrong. Why do you do it?
I do post a lot of opinion on USMB. Some of what I post is pure and simply factual. A lot of it is conjecture and speculation. Some of that is to argue against opposing political views. Some of it is to express my considered opinion regarding something that might be unsubstantiated by the poster to whom I reply.

1. I don't have to believe in hell to be annoyed by people who tell me I'm going to hell. Funny I was thinking about this on the way in to work today just how heavily religion relies on guilt. You don't think I sometimes feel guilty or question myself on this god thing? Then I quickly rationalize any issue I have and go about being an atheist.

I even question my position on whether or not religion, regardless of it is true or not, if it is good or bad overall. I know religions do a lot of good too. But they also do a lot of bad and does it even matter? If it is not true, its time for the human race to evolve beyond believing in fairy tales. You can't be that smart of a species if you are so superstitious that you believe the unbelievable, or because you can't imagine any other way. Best to admit you don't know and keep on looking. Plus, I know I'm good even though I don't believe in god so I don't believe it is necessary. If it makes you feel good I'm happy for you.

But I suspect you guys aren't on USMB because you are 100% sure. You can't be. You can't read all our replies and say you are 100% sure.

PS. From now on I think all theists should have to say what their denomination is when they reply. I need to know why they believe in god. Because if they believe the moses, noah, adam & eve stories, then they are just crazy. Or if you are a christian who doesn't take those stories literally, do you also not take the virgin birth, miracle, rose from the dead stories literally either? This is important.

Because a lot of theists on USMB are generic god believers. Or some of them are jews or mormons or muslims. I need to know what crazy I'm dealing with otherwise you guys think you caught us in a mistake when it is hard to keep your fairy tales straight. Last night I saw on a religious game show that Noah lived 350 years after the arc? Is that true?

Okay.


1. I don't have to believe in hell to be annoyed by people who tell me I'm going to hell. Funny I was thinking about this on the way in to work today just how heavily religion relies on guilt. You don't think I sometimes feel guilty or question myself on this god thing? Then I quickly rationalize any issue I have and go about being an atheist.
I don't believe in Hell (as described in the Bible and by many preachers) either. Hell is where we are now.

I even question my position on whether or not religion, regardless of it is true or not, if it is good or bad overall. I know religions do a lot of good too. But they also do a lot of bad and does it even matter? If it is not true, its time for the human race to evolve beyond believing in fairy tales. You can't be that smart of a species if you are so superstitious that you believe the unbelievable, or because you can't imagine any other way. Best to admit you don't know and keep on looking. Plus, I know I'm good even though I don't believe in god so I don't believe it is necessary. If it makes you feel good I'm happy for you.
I concur. That means we both agree that there is no sense in attacking religions just because one might be an atheist and want to express disdain for religion. No matter what a person believes, if it makes them happy and doesn't step on the beliefs of others, I'm happy for them. It's when their religion demands something of me that I take offense....especially if they demand my death for not following their doctrine. That is why I oppose the idea the of hell in the afterlife.

But I suspect you guys aren't on USMB because you are 100% sure. You can't be. You can't read all our replies and say you are 100% sure.
There are many things that I am not 100% sure of...they are based on belief, just as is the Atheist's contention that no deity exists.

PS. From now on I think all theists should have to say what their denomination is when they reply. I need to know why they believe in god. Because if they believe the moses, noah, adam & eve stories, then they are just crazy. Or if you are a christian who doesn't take those stories literally, do you also not take the virgin birth, miracle, rose from the dead stories literally either? This is important.
As I have stated elsewhere, I don't take the Bible literally. It is full of allegory and parables. It may have been inspired by God as they say, but the authors did not understand evolution or geological time so the stories were presented in terms the people of the day could understand. The 6-day creation is obviously preposterous, as is Adam and Eve being only two people. I think God created everything but we will never fully understand how it was done.

Because a lot of theists on USMB are generic god believers. Or some of them are jews or mormons or muslims. I need to know what crazy I'm dealing with otherwise you guys think you caught us in a mistake when it is hard to keep your fairy tales straight. Last night I saw on a religious game show that Noah lived 350 years after the arc? Is that true?
Posters telling you their denominations would only cause you to generalize and conclude that they hold dear to all the teachings of whatever group they claim to be in. I am a Christian. That does not mean I believe what all the puffed-up evangelicals proclaim or every word printed in the Bible, or that God will punish me for not believing everything in it.

 

[ZenBubba]

Putting aside the question of whether it is or is not a religion, what benefits do Atheists expect to gain by having it declared not to be a religion?

Additionally, what harm comes to Atheists in having it declared to be a religion?

Please do not argue here whether or not Atheism is a religion.

There are a number of reasons that atheists don't want atheism to be considered a religion. The first is that there is no rational argument for atheism, so that gets them off the hook for having to substantiate there beliefs.

Implicit in their belief that atheism is not a religion is that it is a self evident belief system. I realize that this sounds like muddled thinking to most rational people but listen to the way they talk about atheism and you'll discover that what I'm saying is true. They don't believe they need to justify their beliefs. This is how people get duped into adopting atheism in the first place. The reason they hold on is that they don't critically analyze why they believe, thay have actually told themselves that they don't believe! It's the greatest con game going.

They also avoid considering atheism a religion so they can teach it in schools. You can't teach ID in schools because it's religious but evolution can be taught as if it were a religion (Evolution can't be questioned too deeply on a scientific basis alone for example).

The reason atheists get so angry when their beliefs are questioned is because they don't even know why they believe what they believe. This is the price they pay when thoughts are placed in their heads without being filtered through a critical thought process.

 

[sealybobo]

I use to be Greek Orthodox. That is a religion. Then I believed in god but not organized religion so I still considered myself a theist although I don't know what religion you would call that?

Then I became an atheist but quickly realized that the best position to take is an agnostic atheist. I am 99% sure all the man made stories of god are made up but who knows what is on the other side of a black hole. I see no reason to worship the abraham god or any other god. If there is something that created all that we see, likely it doesn't care about each and every one of us. That just all seems too man made.

So basically if there is a god, like the cow you are milking right now, or the cow you are ready to slaughter, it doesn't matter. What religion does the cow belong to? Because that is the same religion I belong to. Wow, I just thought of that and I'm going to see what people reply.

I belong to the same religion your dog belongs to.

So you are comparing yourself to a non-sentient being?

The main question is, are you 100% sure (to yourself) there is no God, and do you actively go out and try to convince others of it, or more importantly, do you feel the compelling need to quash any displays of other religions that are in public?

I am 99.999% sure no god exists. And like I said, if there is something intelligent that created us, it doesn't care about you anymore than it does a cow or maggot. That's just your sentient mind's wishful thinking. Very imaginative, creative. Human's hate not knowing things and we want to know what happens when we die. We made all this up.

I'm 100% sure the Jesus or Mohammad gods are fake.

I don't fuck with theists anymore in my personal life. I've lost a couple friends who were strict catholic and one was a Jew for Jesus. I can't believe all the Jew stuff he talked to us at my poker games and then I find out his wife made him a Jew for Jesus. LOL. Anyways, they take it too personally so I stopped talking to anyone about it other than here on USMB. Occasionally I'll ask someone if they believe but if they say for sure they do I keep my mouth shut. If they are at all doubtful, I may have the talk with them. But I'm not annoying like born agains.

For Easter my Greek orthodox church marches with candles into Greektown in Detroit from the church in celebration. I love the ceremony. We have the right. What do you mean "public"? If you mean The Commons, god doesn't belong in the Commons no. Take god out of city hall.

So government has to be hostile to religion?

No, it just doesn't belong. Notice my church went and marched down the street on our own time? We didn't need the government to help us celebrate Easter. I thought you righties liked less/smaller government? Do you really want to pay a government worker to hang up a xmas tree? Is that the role of our government? Privatize religion!

Technically an Atheist Group could argue that since government paid for the street, it should be free from religion as well. is that what you want?

And in most cases these commons displays were paid for privately, put up privately. No government $$ went towards them, so that kills that argument.

Probably why every year we see Xmas stuff on city property. I actually love it! I don't want xmas to go away. Just the god stuff.

 

[dblack]

Because it's not you jackalope it's the absence of religion. It is stuff like this that made me take a hiatus from this site.

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

First of all, "an active belief that there is no deity" isn't what makes one an atheist. Not being a theist is what makes one an atheist. And agnosticism isn't "not caring" or even "not sure" - it's the observation that the existence of gods isn't a provable proposition; that it's inherent in the nature of the concept that it's unprovable either way. You can be an agnostic and a true believer at the same time, as well as an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.

As far as what is gained or lost in accepting these labels: not much. It's usually only an issue in the context of particular political agendas. The "Intelligent Design" movement, for example, seeks to have atheism classified as a religion in their efforts to "level the playing field" with theistic origin accounts. It's sort of a tortured logic, but my understanding of their strategy is to claim that non-theistic origins accounts (e.g. evolution) are just as "religious" as ID is, and should be taught side by side with religious myths in our schools. We all stand to lose a great deal when faced with such idiocy.

Considering my definitions are far simpler and shorter, I tend to think I am spot on in my observation. When you have to elaborate this much to make a point, its usually to stretch a point, not to make it.

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

?? What? Sorry, that doesn't sounds simple.

 

[martybegan]

So you are comparing yourself to a non-sentient being?

The main question is, are you 100% sure (to yourself) there is no God, and do you actively go out and try to convince others of it, or more importantly, do you feel the compelling need to quash any displays of other religions that are in public?

I am 99.999% sure no god exists. And like I said, if there is something intelligent that created us, it doesn't care about you anymore than it does a cow or maggot. That's just your sentient mind's wishful thinking. Very imaginative, creative. Human's hate not knowing things and we want to know what happens when we die. We made all this up.

I'm 100% sure the Jesus or Mohammad gods are fake.

I don't fuck with theists anymore in my personal life. I've lost a couple friends who were strict catholic and one was a Jew for Jesus. I can't believe all the Jew stuff he talked to us at my poker games and then I find out his wife made him a Jew for Jesus. LOL. Anyways, they take it too personally so I stopped talking to anyone about it other than here on USMB. Occasionally I'll ask someone if they believe but if they say for sure they do I keep my mouth shut. If they are at all doubtful, I may have the talk with them. But I'm not annoying like born agains.

For Easter my Greek orthodox church marches with candles into Greektown in Detroit from the church in celebration. I love the ceremony. We have the right. What do you mean "public"? If you mean The Commons, god doesn't belong in the Commons no. Take god out of city hall.

So government has to be hostile to religion?

No, it just doesn't belong. Notice my church went and marched down the street on our own time? We didn't need the government to help us celebrate Easter. I thought you righties liked less/smaller government? Do you really want to pay a government worker to hang up a xmas tree? Is that the role of our government? Privatize religion!

Technically an Atheist Group could argue that since government paid for the street, it should be free from religion as well. is that what you want?

And in most cases these commons displays were paid for privately, put up privately. No government $$ went towards them, so that kills that argument.

Probably why every year we see Xmas stuff on city property. I actually love it! I don't want xmas to go away. Just the god stuff.

Oh, so government has to do what YOU want, and basically fuck everyone else?

 

[martybegan]

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

First of all, "an active belief that there is no deity" isn't what makes one an atheist. Not being a theist is what makes one an atheist. And agnosticism isn't "not caring" or even "not sure" - it's the observation that the existence of gods isn't a provable proposition; that it's inherent in the nature of the concept that it's unprovable either way. You can be an agnostic and a true believer at the same time, as well as an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.

As far as what is gained or lost in accepting these labels: not much. It's usually only an issue in the context of particular political agendas. The "Intelligent Design" movement, for example, seeks to have atheism classified as a religion in their efforts to "level the playing field" with theistic origin accounts. It's sort of a tortured logic, but my understanding of their strategy is to claim that non-theistic origins accounts (e.g. evolution) are just as "religious" as ID is, and should be taught side by side with religious myths in our schools. We all stand to lose a great deal when faced with such idiocy.

Considering my definitions are far simpler and shorter, I tend to think I am spot on in my observation. When you have to elaborate this much to make a point, its usually to stretch a point, not to make it.

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

?? What? Sorry, that doesn't sounds simple.

its actually very simple.

 

[dblack]

Because it's not you jackalope it's the absence of religion. It is stuff like this that made me take a hiatus from this site.

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

"An active belief"?? That's heelarious.

lol, if atheism is a religion then the constitutional separation of church and state would dictate that both prayer and not saying a prayer would have to be banned from schools.

Whats so funny about it?

Atheism is a belief structure, thus active belief there is no God must be treated the same as believing there is one.

You continue with the same logical fallacy, arguing from the specific to the general. Sure, some atheists might maintain an "active belief that there is no god", but the only quality that all atheists share is that they aren't theists. In general, atheism isn't a "belief structure" - its simply a rejection of theism. If you want to point to specific, organized communities of atheists and show how they are effectively a religion, then your argument might have merit. But to claim that the rejection of theism, in and of itself, represents a religion isn't valid.

 

[sealybobo]

Thanks for an honest answer. It seems a bit after the fact though. The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals has already said Atheism is legally a religion. I follow you in that if it is a religion, it is entitled to the same protections as other religions. I do not follow the thinking that if it is not a religion that religions currently protected will lose their protection in the future.

Is it part of the dogma of Atheism to remove constitutional protections from religion?

I'm sure there are multiple end-games from atheist groups. But you gotta assume if an atheist is legally activistic about it, they long to have religions removed from protected status eventually. Otherwise why not just be content in your disbelief and let other be content in their beliefs?

I'm areligious. I'm against all religions, but not deities. I'll believe in a deity when I shake it's hand. But religions are from people, not deities. As such, and devoid of scientific support for their assertions I'm against them. But I'm content to remain low-stress and not meddle in other people's delusions. That's a fulltime job and not one I'm likely to get paid for.

You ask why so I'll try to answer best I can. For one reason, I truly don't think this lie is good for people. I know religions do a lot of good but they also do a lot of bad, and you may agree or disagree with that, but it is my opinion and why I care. I think religion is unnecessary and holds people back mentally/scientifically. I watch those religious shows, see how religion is used to control people, see how slave owners and Pharoahs and Kings used it to control the masses, I talk to hypocrite theists who confirm religion doesn't necessary work, notice that there are 999 other religions all claiming they are the truth and the other ones are not, etc. So these are reasons why I speak up.

2. A lie is a lie no matter how good it makes people feel.

3. I don't like being told I'm going to hell.

4. Did you see the poll that the least electable person was the atheist? A pot smoking phylanderer has a better chance. I'm here to change perception. I remember being a theist. I thought atheist were the devil. Now I know better and I think others should too.

5. It is unnecessary and not even all that effective. Lots of religious assholes and look how religion makes gays feel guilty about themselves.

Anyways, that's my feelings, and I don't necessarily care if they get the protected status. They should have to prove their charitable works though. Do churches have to give so much to charity? They should. Otherwise it leaves the door open to all the con artists.

I watch that guy on tv ask people to send in $70 x 10 months and a miracle will happen. I wonder how much of that goes to charity and they don't pay taxes?

And if there is a god and he actually cares about you he would reward your intelligence.

I hear you on USMB all the time stating your opinion. Why do you do it? Aren't you meddling in other people's delusions just by posting the things you write? I agree with the things you write, I'm just saying. Don't act like you don't get some satisfaction explaining to people why you think they are wrong. Why do you do it?

You're coming close now. Thank you.

To keep from using a shitload of quote commands, the bold text below is copied from your post. My replies are in lower case.


You ask why so I'll try to answer best I can. For one reason, I truly don't think this lie is good for people. I know religions do a lot of good but they also do a lot of bad, and you may agree or disagree with that, but it is my opinion and why I care. I think religion is unnecessary and holds people back mentally/scientifically. I watch those religious shows, see how religion is used to control people, see how slave owners and Pharoahs and Kings used it to control the masses, I talk to hypocrite theists who confirm religion doesn't necessary work, notice that there are 999 other religions all claiming they are the truth and the other ones are not, etc. So these are reasons why I speak up.
Okay. I agree with you here. Many evangelical preachers and televangelists are off their rockers. Benny Hinn is my prime example of ostentatious bullshit. The "prayer clothes", the staged "healings", the limos, the diamond studded Rolex watches, the golden cathedrals, the silk suits and such are all bullshit.



2. A lie is a lie no matter how good it makes people feel.
Again, I agree.

3. I don't like being told I'm going to hell.
I'm almost certain that the dogma of an Atheist religion would not include the existence of hell or any afterlife whatsoever. If you don't believe in a deity, how can you believe in a hell or a heaven? Not to worry. An Atheist Minister (and they do exist) would not say that you're going to hell.

4. Did you see the poll that the least electable person was the atheist? A pot smoking phylanderer has a better chance. I'm here to change perception. I remember being a theist. I thought atheist were the devil. Now I know better and I think others should too.
I haven't seen the poll. Be patient though. We've already elected a black Muslim sympathizer if not a black Muslim.

Perhaps you were misled by a radical, fire and brimstone Baptist preacher. I know better than that myself.

I grew up a Methodist, married a gem of a Baptist girl, saw no sense in our belonging to separate denominations and became a Baptist. After several years of attending church, I was ordained a Baptist deacon, got involved in the Evangelism Explosion wherein we'd go out in pairs and try to convince no-churchgoers to join our church. The instructions were to always ask the questions to the family member that was considered more likely to say "yes". I questioned the leader of the group by asking if this was simply a ploy to manipulate the minds of the other members. He answered affirmatively. I quit the program. I later divorced my wife and became the black sheep of a large Baptist clan of what you might call "bible thumpers". I was also the black sheep of the local church...one which had its fair share of ostentatious trappings. I'm still a Christian but I do not try to push my religious beliefs on others.

5. It is unnecessary and not even all that effective. Lots of religious assholes and look how religion makes gays feel guilty about themselves.
By the same token, gays are lovingly accepted in many churches. That is likely so in all of the existing Atheist churches.

Anyways, that's my feelings, and I don't necessarily care if they get the protected status. They should have to prove their charitable works though. Do churches have to give so much to charity? They should. Otherwise it leaves the door open to all the con artists.
True. There have been all too many corrupt church leaders piling up cash and possessions for themselves, turning their non-profit church into their own personal cash cow. I think churches should be required to give all but the costs of real estate, maintenance thereof and negotiated staff salaries to charities, either philanthropic or medical research charities or directly to the homeless and needy people living around their own community.

I watch that guy on tv ask people to send in $70 x 10 months and a miracle will happen. I wonder how much of that goes to charity and they don't pay taxes?
Again I concur. Asking people to donate any particular amount is ludicrous. There's a parable about that in the NT, I think...where a poor beggar gave all she had...or something like that. I've also heard of some preachers that will say to a member of their congregation something like "I had a revelation from God last night and He said you should donate $500.00." This is nothing more than extortion.

One of the existing Atheist churches has a donation block on their website complete with the little credit card symbols for Visa, Mastercard and Amex. They say that you are welcome to donate but they don't expect you to.

And if there is a god and he actually cares about you he would reward your intelligence.
Not sure about that. I've heard that God takes care of fools and babies. I interpret that to mean that NOBODY is going to hell when this shit is over.

I hear you on USMB all the time stating your opinion. Why do you do it? Aren't you meddling in other people's delusions just by posting the things you write? I agree with the things you write, I'm just saying. Don't act like you don't get some satisfaction explaining to people why you think they are wrong. Why do you do it?
I do post a lot of opinion on USMB. Some of what I post is pure and simply factual. A lot of it is conjecture and speculation. Some of that is to argue against opposing political views. Some of it is to express my considered opinion regarding something that might be unsubstantiated by the poster to whom I reply.

1. I don't have to believe in hell to be annoyed by people who tell me I'm going to hell. Funny I was thinking about this on the way in to work today just how heavily religion relies on guilt. You don't think I sometimes feel guilty or question myself on this god thing? Then I quickly rationalize any issue I have and go about being an atheist.

I even question my position on whether or not religion, regardless of it is true or not, if it is good or bad overall. I know religions do a lot of good too. But they also do a lot of bad and does it even matter? If it is not true, its time for the human race to evolve beyond believing in fairy tales. You can't be that smart of a species if you are so superstitious that you believe the unbelievable, or because you can't imagine any other way. Best to admit you don't know and keep on looking. Plus, I know I'm good even though I don't believe in god so I don't believe it is necessary. If it makes you feel good I'm happy for you.

But I suspect you guys aren't on USMB because you are 100% sure. You can't be. You can't read all our replies and say you are 100% sure.

PS. From now on I think all theists should have to say what their denomination is when they reply. I need to know why they believe in god. Because if they believe the moses, noah, adam & eve stories, then they are just crazy. Or if you are a christian who doesn't take those stories literally, do you also not take the virgin birth, miracle, rose from the dead stories literally either? This is important.

Because a lot of theists on USMB are generic god believers. Or some of them are jews or mormons or muslims. I need to know what crazy I'm dealing with otherwise you guys think you caught us in a mistake when it is hard to keep your fairy tales straight. Last night I saw on a religious game show that Noah lived 350 years after the arc? Is that true?

Okay.


1. I don't have to believe in hell to be annoyed by people who tell me I'm going to hell. Funny I was thinking about this on the way in to work today just how heavily religion relies on guilt. You don't think I sometimes feel guilty or question myself on this god thing? Then I quickly rationalize any issue I have and go about being an atheist.
I don't believe in Hell (as described in the Bible and by many preachers) either. Hell is where we are now.

I even question my position on whether or not religion, regardless of it is true or not, if it is good or bad overall. I know religions do a lot of good too. But they also do a lot of bad and does it even matter? If it is not true, its time for the human race to evolve beyond believing in fairy tales. You can't be that smart of a species if you are so superstitious that you believe the unbelievable, or because you can't imagine any other way. Best to admit you don't know and keep on looking. Plus, I know I'm good even though I don't believe in god so I don't believe it is necessary. If it makes you feel good I'm happy for you.
I concur. That means we both agree that there is no sense in attacking religions just because one might be an atheist and want to express disdain for religion. No matter what a person believes, if it makes them happy and doesn't step on the beliefs of others, I'm happy for them. It's when their religion demands something of me that I take offense....especially if they demand my death for not following their doctrine. That is why I oppose the idea the of hell in the afterlife.

But I suspect you guys aren't on USMB because you are 100% sure. You can't be. You can't read all our replies and say you are 100% sure.
There are many things that I am not 100% sure of...they are based on belief, just as is the Atheist's contention that no deity exists.

PS. From now on I think all theists should have to say what their denomination is when they reply. I need to know why they believe in god. Because if they believe the moses, noah, adam & eve stories, then they are just crazy. Or if you are a christian who doesn't take those stories literally, do you also not take the virgin birth, miracle, rose from the dead stories literally either? This is important.
As I have stated elsewhere, I don't take the Bible literally. It is full of allegory and parables. It may have been inspired by God as they say, but the authors did not understand evolution or geological time so the stories were presented in terms the people of the day could understand. The 6-day creation is obviously preposterous, as is Adam and Eve being only two people. I think God created everything but we will never fully understand how it was done.

Because a lot of theists on USMB are generic god believers. Or some of them are jews or mormons or muslims. I need to know what crazy I'm dealing with otherwise you guys think you caught us in a mistake when it is hard to keep your fairy tales straight. Last night I saw on a religious game show that Noah lived 350 years after the arc? Is that true?
Posters telling you their denominations would only cause you to generalize and conclude that they hold dear to all the teachings of whatever group they claim to be in. I am a Christian. That does not mean I believe what all the puffed-up evangelicals proclaim or every word printed in the Bible, or that God will punish me for not believing everything in it.

If you don't believe Mary was a virgin and god knocked her up and jesus was god and did miracles and rose from the dead then you are not a christian my friend.

I use to call myself a Christian and believed just as you do. It wasn't long before I realized I wasn't a christian but still believed in god and then it wasn't long before I realized there is no god.

Or if there is, he cares about you and I as much as you or I care about a fly on the back of a rhino's back in Africa. You have to realize if the stories are made up, then god has never visited anyone or told anyone anything. We just came up with the concept 400,000 years ago when we were very scared primitive beings. Sentient but uncivilized and wild imaginations plus a healthy fear of the unknown. It's true.

And what if I believe religion is used to control/manipulate the masses? They use god to divide the middle class. They use god to con poor and middle class people into voting against themselves financially just like they use other wedge issues like guns, gays and racism.

My goal is for people to be too smart to be religious. I hope one day people are either spiritual or not spiritual. If you belong to a religion basically you belong to a lie. Jesus didn't rise from the dead and Noah didn't live to be 350 years old.

“Now, if the book of Genesis is an allegory, then sin is an allegory, the Fall is an allegory and the need for a Savior is an allegory – but if we are all descendants of an allegory, where does that leave us? It destroys the foundation of all Christian doctrine—it destroys the foundation of the gospel.” - Ken Ham

 

[martybegan]

Because it's not you jackalope it's the absence of religion. It is stuff like this that made me take a hiatus from this site.

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

"An active belief"?? That's heelarious.

lol, if atheism is a religion then the constitutional separation of church and state would dictate that both prayer and not saying a prayer would have to be banned from schools.

Whats so funny about it?

Atheism is a belief structure, thus active belief there is no God must be treated the same as believing there is one.

You continue with the same logical fallacy, arguing from the specific to the general. Sure, some atheists might maintain an "active belief that there is no god", but the only quality that all atheists share is that they aren't theists. In general, atheism isn't a "belief structure" - its simply a rejection of theism. If you want to point to specific, organized communities of atheists and show how they are effectively a religion, then your argument might have merit. But to claim that the rejection of theism, in and of itself, represents a religion isn't valid.

How is it not valid. There are Atheists groups out there that try to recruit members, convince others of their belief structure, and advocate to the courts to impose their belief structure on others. Its all the things atheists on this boards claim people of faith do, and yet, somehow Atheism is not a Religion in the sense of a belief structure?

Atheists,want their cake, and to eat it too, in public.More importantly, to force everyone else to eat their own cake in a closet.

There is no logical fallacy here because this is not an argument based on logical principles. It is an argument on the definition of a term, and if that definition relates to it being a religion. Atheism is a concept, like each faith is a concept. When it comes to metaphysical topics, we call these concepts "Religion"

 

[sealybobo]

Simpler than "atheist = not theist" ?

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

I use to be Greek Orthodox. That is a religion. Then I believed in god but not organized religion so I still considered myself a theist although I don't know what religion you would call that?

Then I became an atheist but quickly realized that the best position to take is an agnostic atheist. I am 99% sure all the man made stories of god are made up but who knows what is on the other side of a black hole. I see no reason to worship the abraham god or any other god. If there is something that created all that we see, likely it doesn't care about each and every one of us. That just all seems too man made.

So basically if there is a god, like the cow you are milking right now, or the cow you are ready to slaughter, it doesn't matter. What religion does the cow belong to? Because that is the same religion I belong to. Wow, I just thought of that and I'm going to see what people reply.

I belong to the same religion your dog belongs to.

So you are comparing yourself to a non-sentient being?

The main question is, are you 100% sure (to yourself) there is no God, and do you actively go out and try to convince others of it, or more importantly, do you feel the compelling need to quash any displays of other religions that are in public?

I looked up the word sentient. You don't think a cow can feel or perceive things? I think this position on why humans go to heaven but dogs and maggots don't is a very arrogant and ignorant one. This is why evil christians own zoos and circus' and treat cows inhumanly at slaughter houses. Just one other reason why I think religion needs to go.

Yes, Atheists like Stalin and Pol Pot treated people poorly, but they were enemies of the revolution, so that's OK...

They didn't kill in the name of atheism did they?

 

[martybegan]

Yes, actually. Its about advocacy and faith. If all your issues are with organized religion, yet you still have a faith in a supreme being or a concept of something bigger and not understandable, then you are YOUR definition of an atheist. If however you are an advocate of "there is no God", as opposed to "everyone else is worshipping the wrong way" then, congrats, you have a belief structure, and you are a religion.

I use to be Greek Orthodox. That is a religion. Then I believed in god but not organized religion so I still considered myself a theist although I don't know what religion you would call that?

Then I became an atheist but quickly realized that the best position to take is an agnostic atheist. I am 99% sure all the man made stories of god are made up but who knows what is on the other side of a black hole. I see no reason to worship the abraham god or any other god. If there is something that created all that we see, likely it doesn't care about each and every one of us. That just all seems too man made.

So basically if there is a god, like the cow you are milking right now, or the cow you are ready to slaughter, it doesn't matter. What religion does the cow belong to? Because that is the same religion I belong to. Wow, I just thought of that and I'm going to see what people reply.

I belong to the same religion your dog belongs to.

So you are comparing yourself to a non-sentient being?

The main question is, are you 100% sure (to yourself) there is no God, and do you actively go out and try to convince others of it, or more importantly, do you feel the compelling need to quash any displays of other religions that are in public?

I looked up the word sentient. You don't think a cow can feel or perceive things? I think this position on why humans go to heaven but dogs and maggots don't is a very arrogant and ignorant one. This is why evil christians own zoos and circus' and treat cows inhumanly at slaughter houses. Just one other reason why I think religion needs to go.

Yes, Atheists like Stalin and Pol Pot treated people poorly, but they were enemies of the revolution, so that's OK...

They didn't kill in the name of atheism did they?

No, they killed BECAUSE of Theism, as in, "kill the theists"

If you want to get all moral about killing stuff you don't get to ignore Marx and his merry bunch of murderers.

 

[RKMBrown]

Putting aside the question of whether it is or is not a religion, what benefits do Atheists expect to gain by having it declared not to be a religion?

Additionally, what harm comes to Atheists in having it declared to be a religion?

Please do not argue here whether or not Atheism is a religion.

The benefit they gain by having it declared not to be a religion is that they gain leverage as a group that can push their agenda on public grounds even using public funds without being subject to the same restrictions as other religious groups.

The harm that comes to Atheists in having it declared to be a religion is the same harm that comes to churches when they are forcibly removed from the public grounds and from accessing public funds, it's the act of becoming ostracized from public facilities and monies vs. non-religious groups who vie for sway and power over the public.

For example, green and animal lovers are in essence religious groups who worship mother nature. These groups get to spend public money pushing their religion. Atheists want that money every bit as much as churches.

 

[dblack]

Putting aside the question of whether it is or is not a religion, what benefits do Atheists expect to gain by having it declared not to be a religion?

Additionally, what harm comes to Atheists in having it declared to be a religion?

Please do not argue here whether or not Atheism is a religion.

The benefit they gain by having it declared not to be a religion is that they gain leverage as a group that can push their agenda on public grounds even using public funds without being subject to the same restrictions as other religious groups.

The harm that comes to Atheists in having it declared to be a religion is the same harm that comes to churches when they are forcibly removed from the public grounds and from accessing public funds, it's the act of becoming ostracized from public facilities and monies vs. non-religious groups who vie for sway and power over the public.

For example, green and animal lovers are in essence religious groups who worship mother nature. These groups get to spend public money pushing their religion. Atheists want that money every bit as much as churches.

Right, that's the downside of interpreting the first amendment's freedom of religion clause as a "protected class" provision.

 

[dblack]

Because it's not you jackalope it's the absence of religion. It is stuff like this that made me take a hiatus from this site.

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

"An active belief"?? That's heelarious.

lol, if atheism is a religion then the constitutional separation of church and state would dictate that both prayer and not saying a prayer would have to be banned from schools.

Whats so funny about it?

Atheism is a belief structure, thus active belief there is no God must be treated the same as believing there is one.

You continue with the same logical fallacy, arguing from the specific to the general. Sure, some atheists might maintain an "active belief that there is no god", but the only quality that all atheists share is that they aren't theists. In general, atheism isn't a "belief structure" - its simply a rejection of theism. If you want to point to specific, organized communities of atheists and show how they are effectively a religion, then your argument might have merit. But to claim that the rejection of theism, in and of itself, represents a religion isn't valid.

How is it not valid. There are Atheists groups out there that try to recruit members, convince others of their belief structure, and advocate to the courts to impose their belief structure on others. Its all the things atheists on this boards claim people of faith do, and yet, somehow Atheism is not a Religion in the sense of a belief structure?

That's the logical fallacy I linked to previously. It would be like claiming that because some Republicans are racists, the Republican party is racist. Just because some atheists create a religion based on their beliefs, it doesn't mean that atheism itself is a religion. You really don't see why that's invalid logic?

 

[RKMBrown]

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

"An active belief"?? That's heelarious.

lol, if atheism is a religion then the constitutional separation of church and state would dictate that both prayer and not saying a prayer would have to be banned from schools.

Whats so funny about it?

Atheism is a belief structure, thus active belief there is no God must be treated the same as believing there is one.

You continue with the same logical fallacy, arguing from the specific to the general. Sure, some atheists might maintain an "active belief that there is no god", but the only quality that all atheists share is that they aren't theists. In general, atheism isn't a "belief structure" - its simply a rejection of theism. If you want to point to specific, organized communities of atheists and show how they are effectively a religion, then your argument might have merit. But to claim that the rejection of theism, in and of itself, represents a religion isn't valid.

How is it not valid. There are Atheists groups out there that try to recruit members, convince others of their belief structure, and advocate to the courts to impose their belief structure on others. Its all the things atheists on this boards claim people of faith do, and yet, somehow Atheism is not a Religion in the sense of a belief structure?

That's the logical fallacy I linked to previously. Just because some atheists create a religion based on their beliefs, it doesn't mean that atheism itself is a religion. You really don't see why that's invalid logic?

There are many atheist camps... those that believe they are god, and those that really just don't give a poo about religious dogma.

 

[martybegan]

An active belief that there is no deity is a religious belief. Agnosticism, not caring if there is a deity or not is closer to not being a religion than atheism.

"An active belief"?? That's heelarious.

lol, if atheism is a religion then the constitutional separation of church and state would dictate that both prayer and not saying a prayer would have to be banned from schools.

Whats so funny about it?

Atheism is a belief structure, thus active belief there is no God must be treated the same as believing there is one.

You continue with the same logical fallacy, arguing from the specific to the general. Sure, some atheists might maintain an "active belief that there is no god", but the only quality that all atheists share is that they aren't theists. In general, atheism isn't a "belief structure" - its simply a rejection of theism. If you want to point to specific, organized communities of atheists and show how they are effectively a religion, then your argument might have merit. But to claim that the rejection of theism, in and of itself, represents a religion isn't valid.

How is it not valid. There are Atheists groups out there that try to recruit members, convince others of their belief structure, and advocate to the courts to impose their belief structure on others. Its all the things atheists on this boards claim people of faith do, and yet, somehow Atheism is not a Religion in the sense of a belief structure?

That's the logical fallacy I linked to previously. It would be like claiming that because some Republicans are racists, the Republican party is racist. Just because some atheists create a religion based on their beliefs, it doesn't mean that atheism itself is a religion. You really don't see why that's invalid logic?

You are mis-understanding the link between a group that has a belief and the belief itself. Its more like someone thinking racism is part of some belief spectrum, but anti-racism on the other hand is NOT part of that belief spectrum. Theism and anti-theism are on the same belief spectrum, i.e. Religion.

 

[martybegan]

"An active belief"?? That's heelarious.

lol, if atheism is a religion then the constitutional separation of church and state would dictate that both prayer and not saying a prayer would have to be banned from schools.

Whats so funny about it?

Atheism is a belief structure, thus active belief there is no God must be treated the same as believing there is one.

You continue with the same logical fallacy, arguing from the specific to the general. Sure, some atheists might maintain an "active belief that there is no god", but the only quality that all atheists share is that they aren't theists. In general, atheism isn't a "belief structure" - its simply a rejection of theism. If you want to point to specific, organized communities of atheists and show how they are effectively a religion, then your argument might have merit. But to claim that the rejection of theism, in and of itself, represents a religion isn't valid.

How is it not valid. There are Atheists groups out there that try to recruit members, convince others of their belief structure, and advocate to the courts to impose their belief structure on others. Its all the things atheists on this boards claim people of faith do, and yet, somehow Atheism is not a Religion in the sense of a belief structure?

That's the logical fallacy I linked to previously. Just because some atheists create a religion based on their beliefs, it doesn't mean that atheism itself is a religion. You really don't see why that's invalid logic?

There are many atheist camps... those that believe they are god, and those that really just don't give a poo about religious dogma.

Those who "don't give a poo about religious dogma" are agnostics.

 

[sealybobo]

"An active belief"?? That's heelarious.

lol, if atheism is a religion then the constitutional separation of church and state would dictate that both prayer and not saying a prayer would have to be banned from schools.

Whats so funny about it?

Atheism is a belief structure, thus active belief there is no God must be treated the same as believing there is one.

You continue with the same logical fallacy, arguing from the specific to the general. Sure, some atheists might maintain an "active belief that there is no god", but the only quality that all atheists share is that they aren't theists. In general, atheism isn't a "belief structure" - its simply a rejection of theism. If you want to point to specific, organized communities of atheists and show how they are effectively a religion, then your argument might have merit. But to claim that the rejection of theism, in and of itself, represents a religion isn't valid.

How is it not valid. There are Atheists groups out there that try to recruit members, convince others of their belief structure, and advocate to the courts to impose their belief structure on others. Its all the things atheists on this boards claim people of faith do, and yet, somehow Atheism is not a Religion in the sense of a belief structure?

That's the logical fallacy I linked to previously. Just because some atheists create a religion based on their beliefs, it doesn't mean that atheism itself is a religion. You really don't see why that's invalid logic?

There are many atheist camps... those that believe they are god, and those that really just don't give a poo about religious dogma.

To be an Atheist one would have to be omniscient, knowing all things, having a perfect knowledge of the universe, to say they absolutely know God does not exist.

• an atheist is one who either lacks positive belief in a god or who believes that no gods exist, not one who claims to know absolutely that no gods exist

• such knowledge is not required for disbelief. Do you believe in UFO’s?

• Faith: (1) confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing; and (2) belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. So you may reasonably claim that certain forms of atheism are based on "faith" using the first definition. However, the way this claim is often made implies that the second definition is being used, which is usually incorrect.

• Disbelief based on lack of evidence does not require faith. Similarly, someone who has been given evidence and simply finds it lacking would also not be relying on faith for his or her lack of belief.

• It is quite possible to obtain evidence discouraging belief in the existence of specific gods (i.e., "virgin births, rising from the dead, noah living 350 years.) If you need to invoke a god to explain your myths, in other words if your stories are unbelievable, then it doesn’t take faith to not believe.

• The argument equates non-belief in a proposition due to a complete lack of evidence and good reasons to suppose otherwise to the psychological leap of faith needed to believe religions.

• There is often an unspoken premise in this kind of argument that being an atheist is dangerous and therefore should not be entered into lightly. This is a classic appeal to emotion. Not to mention the ironic implication that faith is not a good reason to disbelieve something; if that's true, then why should faith be a good reason to believe something?

• Theists commonly consider faith to be a virtue. It seems odd, then, that they would criticize atheism for being based on faith. Moreover, the argument implies that the more faith a proposition needs, the less one should accept it as true, a position that many counter-apologists would welcome.

• Tu quoque! This argument attempts to defend faith-based religious claims by insisting that the atheist position falls into the same category. It also often serves as a non sequitur, and tends to derail the discussion about the merits of positive god claims.

• Theists often backslide and have trouble maintaining faith in their god. Atheists occasionally convert to theism, but do not tend to slip into various god-beliefs due to the "strain" required to maintain no belief in any gods. If atheism were an identity based on faith, one might expect atheists to share the same difficulties the religious have in maintaining their faith.

 

[sealybobo]

Whats so funny about it?

Atheism is a belief structure, thus active belief there is no God must be treated the same as believing there is one.

You continue with the same logical fallacy, arguing from the specific to the general. Sure, some atheists might maintain an "active belief that there is no god", but the only quality that all atheists share is that they aren't theists. In general, atheism isn't a "belief structure" - its simply a rejection of theism. If you want to point to specific, organized communities of atheists and show how they are effectively a religion, then your argument might have merit. But to claim that the rejection of theism, in and of itself, represents a religion isn't valid.

How is it not valid. There are Atheists groups out there that try to recruit members, convince others of their belief structure, and advocate to the courts to impose their belief structure on others. Its all the things atheists on this boards claim people of faith do, and yet, somehow Atheism is not a Religion in the sense of a belief structure?

That's the logical fallacy I linked to previously. Just because some atheists create a religion based on their beliefs, it doesn't mean that atheism itself is a religion. You really don't see why that's invalid logic?

There are many atheist camps... those that believe they are god, and those that really just don't give a poo about religious dogma.

Those who "don't give a poo about religious dogma" are agnostics.

Agnosticism is a cop out just like being an independent in politics is a cop out. You either lean one way or the other.

But I do like what I see:

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of God, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable. An agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of God, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively.

Theists are the only ones who claim to KNOW.

agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify either the belief that God exists or the belief that God does not exist