Why do the God-haters persist?

[sealybobo]

FACE THE TRUTH!! THOSE THAT CHOOSE TO REJECT GOD HAVE NO EXCUSE!!!!==Rom 1:18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

Rom 1:19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.

Rom 1:20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

Rom 1:21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools

I am facing the truth. Your religion is not the truth. And I can't fake belief. I call BULLSHIT on your religion. Maybe I'll take a look at the Muslims, Jews or Mormons or even Scientologists next. But yours? Not a chance that's real. Sorry. I can't believe you believe that shit. So funny. I stay up late watching your crooked pastors brainwashing the stupid sheep that make up your church. What a joke. Is that satan telling me that? Stupid people.

TO BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE IS "ALL YOUR CHOICE" YOU CAN CHOSE TO BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO BELIEVE,THE QUESTION YOU NEED TO FACE IS DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE???? OR DO YOU WANT TO LIVE IN YOUR PET SINS MORE????? Truth please!!!

For me it isn't about either I choose your religion or I choose to live in sin. I don't think I sin any more/less than you do gismys.

So I guess the only choice here is either I believe your story about jesus or I don't. I don't.

It isn't either I believe you or burn in hell. It's either I believe you or I don't. I don't.

Or the Dot head from india who came over here and found christianity. He's a born again. I didn't want to freak him out because he's a customer so instead of telling him I'm an atheist I told him I'm Greek Orthodox and he flat out said us and Catholics need to be born again or we won't go to heaven. I don't believe him either Gismys. He's a fool like you. If it makes you/him feel better great but I don't think it is good for people to believe a stupid lie and I will do my best to spread the word that religion is the root of all evil.

You for example seem like a very evil person. If you are what god is all about I reject god because I certainly reject everything you have ever written. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you were possessed with a demon and so was every other preacher I see on tv. Fools and liars. No fucking way!

 

[sealybobo]

FACE THE TRUTH!! THOSE THAT CHOOSE TO REJECT GOD HAVE NO EXCUSE!!!!==Rom 1:18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

Rom 1:19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.

Rom 1:20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

Rom 1:21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools

I am facing the truth. Your religion is not the truth. And I can't fake belief. I call BULLSHIT on your religion. Maybe I'll take a look at the Muslims, Jews or Mormons or even Scientologists next. But yours? Not a chance that's real. Sorry. I can't believe you believe that shit. So funny. I stay up late watching your crooked pastors brainwashing the stupid sheep that make up your church. What a joke. Is that satan telling me that? Stupid people.

TO BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE IS "ALL YOUR CHOICE" YOU CAN CHOSE TO BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO BELIEVE,THE QUESTION YOU NEED TO FACE IS DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE???? OR DO YOU WANT TO LIVE IN YOUR PET SINS MORE????? Truth please!!!

Oh I want to believe. I want to believe so bad I believed for 40 years without any proof. I just can't anymore. Too smart.

New song "My eyes have seen the glory of the fact there is no lord you guys made it all up fo sho you're all suck fucking terds, I can't take you serious no more you're all too fucking dumb the truth is there's no god.

 

[GISMYS]

I am facing the truth. Your religion is not the truth. And I can't fake belief. I call BULLSHIT on your religion. Maybe I'll take a look at the Muslims, Jews or Mormons or even Scientologists next. But yours? Not a chance that's real. Sorry. I can't believe you believe that shit. So funny. I stay up late watching your crooked pastors brainwashing the stupid sheep that make up your church. What a joke. Is that satan telling me that? Stupid people.

TO BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE IS "ALL YOUR CHOICE" YOU CAN CHOSE TO BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO BELIEVE,THE QUESTION YOU NEED TO FACE IS DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE???? OR DO YOU WANT TO LIVE IN YOUR PET SINS MORE????? Truth please!!!

For me it isn't about either I choose your religion or I choose to live in sin. I don't think I sin any more/less than you do gismys.

So I guess the only choice here is either I believe your story about jesus or I don't. I don't.

It isn't either I believe you or burn in hell. It's either I believe you or I don't. I don't.

Or the Dot head from india who came over here and found christianity. He's a born again. I didn't want to freak him out because he's a customer so instead of telling him I'm an atheist I told him I'm Greek Orthodox and he flat out said us and Catholics need to be born again or we won't go to heaven. I don't believe him either Gismys. He's a fool like you. If it makes you/him feel better great but I don't think it is good for people to believe a stupid lie and I will do my best to spread the word that religion is the root of all evil.

You for example seem like a very evil person. If you are what god is all about I reject god because I certainly reject everything you have ever written. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you were possessed with a demon and so was every other preacher I see on tv. Fools and liars. No fucking way!

YES!! BUT FACE THE TRUTH AS TO WHY YOU CHOOSE TO NOT BELIEVE= YOU ALLOW SATAN TO BLIND YOU,YOU LOVE YOUR PET SINS AND YOU DREAM AND HOPE GOD IS NOT REAL SO YOU WON'T HAVE TO FACE YOUR FINAL JUDGMENT!!WELL!!! DREAM ON!!! Dream on!

 

[Boss]

silly boob: You're assuming god talked to adam, noah & moses. He didn't. If he did in "the past" then I would say god exists or at least existed. But since that's all made up all you have is wishful thinking.

Because our barely smarter than ape ancestors invented god you believe. They also invented the idea that the earth was flat. They were wrong.

Why do you continue to attempt steering the argument back to a religious belief in the God of Abraham, which I've repeatedly denied having belief in? Is this because the only way you've learned to argue against God is if God is the God of Abraham depicted in The Bible? I've assumed nothing about Adam, Noah or Moses... haven't mentioned them.

Our "barely smarter than ape ancestors," presuming you mean the ones from 500k years ago when homo sapiens first arrived on the scene, did not invent the God of Adam, Noah or Moses. In fact, I suspect if you went back a mere 4-5k years, no one would know who the hell you were talking about. Yet those very ancestors were spiritually worshiping something greater than self, at least the ones who's bones we've dug up were. The oldest civilizations we've unearthed show clear indication of human spiritual worship, and it wasn't Christian worship. So... If our "barely smarter than ape ancestors" were intrinsically inclined to worship a power greater than self, what does this say about your intelligence level?

Science must remain consistently focused on facts and results, observable evidence. It can't make determinations based on prejudice and bias toward specific religious beliefs. When we look at the history of homo sapiens, there is a very real and profound attribute that has been predominate in humans from the beginning, and that is human spirituality. Long before virtually any accomplishment of significance by man, there was human spirituality. There is also no indication this attribute was acquired through an evolution process, because no other living thing indicates any evidence of such attribute in all of nature. It is entirely exclusive to humans.

In order for you to claim this was "invented" by man, you must indicate the timeline. What we need to see is a period of time where homo sapiens existed with no apparent spirituality whatsoever, and then find the point at which this began. You can't do that because the evidence shows it has always existed in man. It's not vestigial because there is no evidence that anything else in nature has ever been spiritual. So you have no evidence it is invented or that it evolved into man, and it apparently has always been an attribute of homo sapiens... therefore, the beliefs you have are simply "faith-based" beliefs. Faith is the belief in something not in evidence. That's really all you have.

They thought the sun was a god. Is it? Then they were WRONG from the start. They first made it up 223,000 years ago. Timeline of religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Neadertals too. How did that work out for him?

As a scientists if you look at the world and the universe

Complexity does not imply design and does not prove the existence of a god. Even if design could be established we cannot conclude anything about the nature of the designer (Aliens?). Furthermore, many biological systems have obvious defects consistent with the predictions of evolution by means of natural selection.

The appearance of complexity and order in the universe is the result of spontaneous self-organization and pattern formation, caused by chaotic feedback between simple physical laws and rules. All the complexity of the universe, all its apparent richness, even life itself, arises from simple, mindless rules repeated over and over again for billions of years. Current scientific theories are able to clearly explain how complexity and order arise in physical systems. Any lack of understanding does not immediately imply ‘god’.

Your showing me where man invented religion is NOT showing where man invented human spirituality. Again... oldest bones of humans we've ever uncovered, shows signs of human spiritual belief. There is NO time period where humans did not have this attribute. Forget about complexity and design, I haven't mentioned it here. I am arguing from the perspective of rational observable evidence that cannot be disputed. You keep wanting to morph the argument back into some religious incarnation you feel comfortable attacking, and I won't let you do that.

Neanderthals were not spiritual. There is some evidence that isolated groups of later Neanderthals in Europe, tried to practice human spirituality, but it is believed this was "too little, too late" to save the species and they became extinct. Yes, early humans worshiped the Sun because that is how they interpreted their intrinsic spiritual connection that was real and was experienced. You continue to present evidence that humans spiritually connect in an attempt to refute the point that humans spiritually connect. It's amazing.

 

[Boss]

Maybe I'll take a look at the Muslims, Jews or Mormons or even Scientologists next. But yours? Not a chance that's real.

Why would you feel so compelled if you don't believe there is anything to the whole "God" thing? This makes no sense to me. The TRUTH which you seem to want to avoid here is, you DO believe in something greater than self. You are completely lost in understanding what that is, but deep inside, you have this intrinsic connection and belief that you can't ignore. Once before you slipped up and admitted you believe in "Karma" but that's a spiritual concept. If you believe in "Karma" you believe in forces beyond the physical, something greater than self. Why is it so difficult for you to just admit that?

Are you afraid of rejection by your "atheist agnostic" friends? Are you fearful someone might turn you into a Krishtun? Or are you just trying to sound like a pompous asshole to those who have religious faith? I just wonder, since when does being completely aloof and uncertain in what you believe, mean that you are being smart and intelligent? You're coming across as an absolute idiot who doesn't know what he believes, telling other people what they believe is not true.

 

[sealybobo]

TO BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE IS "ALL YOUR CHOICE" YOU CAN CHOSE TO BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO BELIEVE,THE QUESTION YOU NEED TO FACE IS DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE???? OR DO YOU WANT TO LIVE IN YOUR PET SINS MORE????? Truth please!!!

For me it isn't about either I choose your religion or I choose to live in sin. I don't think I sin any more/less than you do gismys.

So I guess the only choice here is either I believe your story about jesus or I don't. I don't.

It isn't either I believe you or burn in hell. It's either I believe you or I don't. I don't.

Or the Dot head from india who came over here and found christianity. He's a born again. I didn't want to freak him out because he's a customer so instead of telling him I'm an atheist I told him I'm Greek Orthodox and he flat out said us and Catholics need to be born again or we won't go to heaven. I don't believe him either Gismys. He's a fool like you. If it makes you/him feel better great but I don't think it is good for people to believe a stupid lie and I will do my best to spread the word that religion is the root of all evil.

You for example seem like a very evil person. If you are what god is all about I reject god because I certainly reject everything you have ever written. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you were possessed with a demon and so was every other preacher I see on tv. Fools and liars. No fucking way!

YES!! BUT FACE THE TRUTH AS TO WHY YOU CHOOSE TO NOT BELIEVE= YOU ALLOW SATAN TO BLIND YOU,YOU LOVE YOUR PET SINS AND YOU DREAM AND HOPE GOD IS NOT REAL SO YOU WON'T HAVE TO FACE YOUR FINAL JUDGMENT!!WELL!!! DREAM ON!!! Dream on!

No. It's because I think like you all christians are either stupid, crazy, dumb or liars. I don't think you are a liar. I know you truly believe the shit you type.

 

[GISMYS]

For me it isn't about either I choose your religion or I choose to live in sin. I don't think I sin any more/less than you do gismys.

So I guess the only choice here is either I believe your story about jesus or I don't. I don't.

It isn't either I believe you or burn in hell. It's either I believe you or I don't. I don't.

Or the Dot head from india who came over here and found christianity. He's a born again. I didn't want to freak him out because he's a customer so instead of telling him I'm an atheist I told him I'm Greek Orthodox and he flat out said us and Catholics need to be born again or we won't go to heaven. I don't believe him either Gismys. He's a fool like you. If it makes you/him feel better great but I don't think it is good for people to believe a stupid lie and I will do my best to spread the word that religion is the root of all evil.

You for example seem like a very evil person. If you are what god is all about I reject god because I certainly reject everything you have ever written. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you were possessed with a demon and so was every other preacher I see on tv. Fools and liars. No fucking way!

YES!! BUT FACE THE TRUTH AS TO WHY YOU CHOOSE TO NOT BELIEVE= YOU ALLOW SATAN TO BLIND YOU,YOU LOVE YOUR PET SINS AND YOU DREAM AND HOPE GOD IS NOT REAL SO YOU WON'T HAVE TO FACE YOUR FINAL JUDGMENT!!WELL!!! DREAM ON!!! Dream on!

No. It's because I think like you all christians are either stupid, crazy, dumb or liars. I don't think you are a liar. I know you truly believe the shit you type.

THEN WHY ALLOW SATAN TO USE YOU AS HIS TOOL,FOOL,PUPPET???????????? WISE UP little guy!!!WISE UP!!! YOU COULD BE LIVING YOUR LIFE AS A son OF ALMIGHTY GOD!!

 

[sealybobo]

Why do you continue to attempt steering the argument back to a religious belief in the God of Abraham, which I've repeatedly denied having belief in? Is this because the only way you've learned to argue against God is if God is the God of Abraham depicted in The Bible? I've assumed nothing about Adam, Noah or Moses... haven't mentioned them.

Our "barely smarter than ape ancestors," presuming you mean the ones from 500k years ago when homo sapiens first arrived on the scene, did not invent the God of Adam, Noah or Moses. In fact, I suspect if you went back a mere 4-5k years, no one would know who the hell you were talking about. Yet those very ancestors were spiritually worshiping something greater than self, at least the ones who's bones we've dug up were. The oldest civilizations we've unearthed show clear indication of human spiritual worship, and it wasn't Christian worship. So... If our "barely smarter than ape ancestors" were intrinsically inclined to worship a power greater than self, what does this say about your intelligence level?

Science must remain consistently focused on facts and results, observable evidence. It can't make determinations based on prejudice and bias toward specific religious beliefs. When we look at the history of homo sapiens, there is a very real and profound attribute that has been predominate in humans from the beginning, and that is human spirituality. Long before virtually any accomplishment of significance by man, there was human spirituality. There is also no indication this attribute was acquired through an evolution process, because no other living thing indicates any evidence of such attribute in all of nature. It is entirely exclusive to humans.

In order for you to claim this was "invented" by man, you must indicate the timeline. What we need to see is a period of time where homo sapiens existed with no apparent spirituality whatsoever, and then find the point at which this began. You can't do that because the evidence shows it has always existed in man. It's not vestigial because there is no evidence that anything else in nature has ever been spiritual. So you have no evidence it is invented or that it evolved into man, and it apparently has always been an attribute of homo sapiens... therefore, the beliefs you have are simply "faith-based" beliefs. Faith is the belief in something not in evidence. That's really all you have.

They thought the sun was a god. Is it? Then they were WRONG from the start. They first made it up 223,000 years ago. Timeline of religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Neadertals too. How did that work out for him?

As a scientists if you look at the world and the universe

Complexity does not imply design and does not prove the existence of a god. Even if design could be established we cannot conclude anything about the nature of the designer (Aliens?). Furthermore, many biological systems have obvious defects consistent with the predictions of evolution by means of natural selection.

The appearance of complexity and order in the universe is the result of spontaneous self-organization and pattern formation, caused by chaotic feedback between simple physical laws and rules. All the complexity of the universe, all its apparent richness, even life itself, arises from simple, mindless rules repeated over and over again for billions of years. Current scientific theories are able to clearly explain how complexity and order arise in physical systems. Any lack of understanding does not immediately imply ‘god’.

Your showing me where man invented religion is NOT showing where man invented human spirituality. Again... oldest bones of humans we've ever uncovered, shows signs of human spiritual belief. There is NO time period where humans did not have this attribute. Forget about complexity and design, I haven't mentioned it here. I am arguing from the perspective of rational observable evidence that cannot be disputed. You keep wanting to morph the argument back into some religious incarnation you feel comfortable attacking, and I won't let you do that.

Neanderthals were not spiritual. There is some evidence that isolated groups of later Neanderthals in Europe, tried to practice human spirituality, but it is believed this was "too little, too late" to save the species and they became extinct. Yes, early humans worshiped the Sun because that is how they interpreted their intrinsic spiritual connection that was real and was experienced. You continue to present evidence that humans spiritually connect in an attempt to refute the point that humans spiritually connect. It's amazing.

And if I'm going to worship anything it's going to be the sun. I can see it. It provides us with life. It is worth worshiping.

Sun of God wasn't long before our ape ancestors turned it into the SON of god. But that proves there is a god?

 

[emilynghiem]

Yes, [MENTION=11281]sealybobo[/MENTION]
You remind me of Carlton Pearson, Gospel of Inclusion, who also came to the same conclusion about God, or else the message contradicts itself!
He changed the entire direction and focus of his ministry once he realized it made no sense for God to be punitive and condemn people to hell.
God's love and will being perfect, then of course God would get his way which is that no soul be lost; thus, he agreed there must be Universal Salvation.

The way I explain it, if God made humans to have free will, so that we learn by mistakes by trial and error, how can you judge someone for making mistakes out of ignorance?

The truth I discovered was that God was not inflicting punishment,
but that we suffer our own ill will when we do not CHOOSE to ask help with forgiveness.

Now, I see there is NO WAY to "blame people" for not asking for help when they didn't know things could be helped or changed by forgiveness. Of course that makes zero sense!

For people to receive healing and forgiveness, it must be offered freely in a way they have no reason to fear or reject it.

It makes no sense to judge people for "not being able to forgive"
if the reason they cannot put aside pain and fear to forgive it is they are unable to forgive!

The point is NOT to judge anyone in any such situation.
Only through compassion, acceptance and inclusion can people let go their own fears and suffering and receive healing naturally in the process. It cannot be forced,
especially not by judgment or punishment!

Think how ridiculous and futile: if you threaten to punish someone for "not forgiving" something hurtful or wrong they see in life, aren't you going to force the opposite effect?
And make them even more resentful and unforgiving? Of course!

There are many ways of saying similar concepts:
* If God's will is perfect and has supreme dominion, then aren't all things by God's will
* If God made humans imperfect with free will,
isn't it God's responsibility when this goes wrong?
* If only God knows and understands God's truth and laws,
how is it man's fault for not knowing or understanding what we cannot or do not know?
* If mistakes are made out of ignorance or imperfection, isn't it the fault of the ignorance and imperfection so that all things are forgiveable on some level because we aren't perfect

And that leads to the idea that the one unforgiveable sin is "unforgiveness"
which becomes a catch-22. if people are so hurt they can't forgive, how is it their fault?

Yea yea the old if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a noise routine.

Not at all. Regardless of who hears what, once the tree falls the event is part of the past and no longer reality. It may be the last time a tree ever falls, the universe can end at any time. Reality is only what is experienced for the instant it happens. You can't hold the past or experience the past again, it's gone forever. You may remember it, but the experience was only the instant it happened. It no longer exists in reality. It will never exist again in reality.

You just blew your own mind.

Hey, I thought about something this weekend when I was high as hell watching the fireworks on the lake. Someone said something last week and it made a lot of sense to me. They asked gismys how could a god punish us for not believing something we just can't believe? If we need proof and we can't accept your virtually impossible stories then

a. Should we fake it?

b. Why would a god do this?

I think you would admit that the need to believe in a god is something man made up. If not you are just as loony as they are. I can't tell with you. You seem to understand christianity is made up but I seem to recall you saying we are scared of death or hell. Can you clarify? Do you think people who don't believe in god all go to hell?

P.S. I was watching a bunch of funny religious shows this weekend. OMG I'm sorry if you think it is rude to make fun but jesus h christ it is so obvious that these people are all either con artists or retards to be that into it. And I'm sorry it doesn't seem to be producing good results. Maybe if it wasn't such a scam.

 

[emilynghiem]

And if I'm going to worship anything it's going to be the sun. I can see it. It provides us with life. It is worth worshiping.

Sun of God wasn't long before our ape ancestors turned it into the SON of god. But that proves there is a god?

Do we need to see proof of Justice and Truth to believe in these abstract things?

If we demand proof/agreement on facts to establish what is Truth, what is Justice, isn't that the same process,
as having faith in God/Jesus to establish unified agreement? For sake of "Truth/Justice" which God/Jesus symbolize collectively.

Does it matter what we call a rose, as long as we agree what we are talking about?

 

[emilynghiem]

THEN WHY ALLOW SATAN TO USE YOU AS HIS TOOL,FOOL,PUPPET???????????? WISE UP little guy!!!WISE UP!!! YOU COULD BE LIVING YOUR LIFE AS A son OF ALMIGHTY GOD!!

Yes, some people could become even more effective "righteous gentiles"
and receive rebuke with thanks and wisdom, as equal neighbors in Christ.

As opposed to being "clanging cymbals"
or "hypocrites on street corners preaching in public"

http://biblehub.com/matthew/6-5.htm
Matthew 6:5
5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men.

http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-1.htm
1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

 

[sealybobo]

YES!! BUT FACE THE TRUTH AS TO WHY YOU CHOOSE TO NOT BELIEVE= YOU ALLOW SATAN TO BLIND YOU,YOU LOVE YOUR PET SINS AND YOU DREAM AND HOPE GOD IS NOT REAL SO YOU WON'T HAVE TO FACE YOUR FINAL JUDGMENT!!WELL!!! DREAM ON!!! Dream on!

No. It's because I think like you all christians are either stupid, crazy, dumb or liars. I don't think you are a liar. I know you truly believe the shit you type.

THEN WHY ALLOW SATAN TO USE YOU AS HIS TOOL,FOOL,PUPPET???????????? WISE UP little guy!!!WISE UP!!! YOU COULD BE LIVING YOUR LIFE AS A son OF ALMIGHTY GOD!!

Do you/he want me to fake it? I can't believe. Sorry. Maybe if you told a better story.

 

[sealybobo]

Yes, [MENTION=11281]sealybobo[/MENTION]
You remind me of Carlton Pearson, Gospel of Inclusion, who also came to the same conclusion about God, or else the message contradicts itself!
He changed the entire direction and focus of his ministry once he realized it made no sense for God to be punitive and condemn people to hell.
God's love and will being perfect, then of course God would get his way which is that no soul be lost; thus, he agreed there must be Universal Salvation.

The way I explain it, if God made humans to have free will, so that we learn by mistakes by trial and error, how can you judge someone for making mistakes out of ignorance?

The truth I discovered was that God was not inflicting punishment,
but that we suffer our own ill will when we do not CHOOSE to ask help with forgiveness.

Now, I see there is NO WAY to "blame people" for not asking for help when they didn't know things could be helped or changed by forgiveness. Of course that makes zero sense!

For people to receive healing and forgiveness, it must be offered freely in a way they have no reason to fear or reject it.

It makes no sense to judge people for "not being able to forgive"
if the reason they cannot put aside pain and fear to forgive it is they are unable to forgive!

The point is NOT to judge anyone in any such situation.
Only through compassion, acceptance and inclusion can people let go their own fears and suffering and receive healing naturally in the process. It cannot be forced,
especially not by judgment or punishment!

Think how ridiculous and futile: if you threaten to punish someone for "not forgiving" something hurtful or wrong they see in life, aren't you going to force the opposite effect?
And make them even more resentful and unforgiving? Of course!

There are many ways of saying similar concepts:
* If God's will is perfect and has supreme dominion, then aren't all things by God's will
* If God made humans imperfect with free will,
isn't it God's responsibility when this goes wrong?
* If only God knows and understands God's truth and laws,
how is it man's fault for not knowing or understanding what we cannot or do not know?
* If mistakes are made out of ignorance or imperfection, isn't it the fault of the ignorance and imperfection so that all things are forgiveable on some level because we aren't perfect

And that leads to the idea that the one unforgiveable sin is "unforgiveness"
which becomes a catch-22. if people are so hurt they can't forgive, how is it their fault?

Not at all. Regardless of who hears what, once the tree falls the event is part of the past and no longer reality. It may be the last time a tree ever falls, the universe can end at any time. Reality is only what is experienced for the instant it happens. You can't hold the past or experience the past again, it's gone forever. You may remember it, but the experience was only the instant it happened. It no longer exists in reality. It will never exist again in reality.

You just blew your own mind.

Hey, I thought about something this weekend when I was high as hell watching the fireworks on the lake. Someone said something last week and it made a lot of sense to me. They asked gismys how could a god punish us for not believing something we just can't believe? If we need proof and we can't accept your virtually impossible stories then

a. Should we fake it?

b. Why would a god do this?

I think you would admit that the need to believe in a god is something man made up. If not you are just as loony as they are. I can't tell with you. You seem to understand christianity is made up but I seem to recall you saying we are scared of death or hell. Can you clarify? Do you think people who don't believe in god all go to hell?

P.S. I was watching a bunch of funny religious shows this weekend. OMG I'm sorry if you think it is rude to make fun but jesus h christ it is so obvious that these people are all either con artists or retards to be that into it. And I'm sorry it doesn't seem to be producing good results. Maybe if it wasn't such a scam.

For awhile I decided to follow jesus' teachings as a good man. I read the Red Letter Bible and I didn't see anything wrong with anything I read. I certainly didn't read him saying anything that Gismys says.

But just because something is perceived as having good consequences if it is true, does not actually make it true. It also doesn't mean we should continue to tell a lie if we know it is a lie, regardless of the consequences. I also don't think admitting there is no god would have negative effects on society. You guys think people can't or won't know right from wrong without god. I and many other atheists are proof that is not true.

The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of atheists are generally more peaceful than otherwise is evidence this perception is incorrect.

See also: Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being (a must read).

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg

 

[sealybobo]

And if I'm going to worship anything it's going to be the sun. I can see it. It provides us with life. It is worth worshiping.

Sun of God wasn't long before our ape ancestors turned it into the SON of god. But that proves there is a god?

Do we need to see proof of Justice and Truth to believe in these abstract things?

If we demand proof/agreement on facts to establish what is Truth, what is Justice, isn't that the same process,
as having faith in God/Jesus to establish unified agreement? For sake of "Truth/Justice" which God/Jesus symbolize collectively.

Does it matter what we call a rose, as long as we agree what we are talking about?

God is the universe/love/laws of physics/truth/justice/etc.

We already have names for these things. Redefining something as ‘god’ tells us nothing. To use the word ‘god’ implies a host of other attributes and if you don’t intend to apply those attributes, using the word is intentionally misleading.

“To call the world God is not to explain it; it is only to enrich our language with a superfluous synonym for the word ‘world’.” – Arthur Schopenhauer

 

[GISMYS]

BEFORE YOU START READING GOD'S WORD SAY TO GOD," GOD IF YOU ARE REAL SHOWME,SPEAK TO ME THROUGH YOUR WORD,I WANT TO KNOW IF YOU ARE REAL" GOD WILL HONOR THOSE WORDS IF YOU MEAN WHAT YOU SAY!!! 1000% Ask!!!

 

[emilynghiem]

You can be a "righteous gentile," who naturally follows the law by conscience,
and not be as a church member under the religious authority.

The Bible explains there will be gentiles who become a law unto themselves,
in a separate fold of the same flock.

What makes a difference is if these two folds can FORGIVE each other's different ways.
As long as there is forgiveness and understanding between them, they can be in harmony in Christ Jesus, where the two folds are one flock, they follow the same standards on truth and justice, but expressed in different ways using their respective laws (sacred / natural).

What is the problem is if people REJECT the other way as false, then there is conflict.
Both ways are true when they are used to express truth;
both ways are false when they are abused to spread misperception and division.

Anyone of any cultural background or religious tribe (even secular science/natural laws)
can reach "agreement on truth" as "neighbors in Christ," regardless of denomination or language used to communicate that agreement on universal concepts and principles.

For awhile I decided to follow jesus' teachings as a good man. I read the Red Letter Bible and I didn't see anything wrong with anything I read. I certainly didn't read him saying anything that Gismys says.

But just because something is perceived as having good consequences if it is true, does not actually make it true. It also doesn't mean we should continue to tell a lie if we know it is a lie, regardless of the consequences. I also don't think admitting there is no god would have negative effects on society. You guys think people can't or won't know right from wrong without god. I and many other atheists are proof that is not true.

The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of atheists are generally more peaceful than otherwise is evidence this perception is incorrect.

See also: Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being (a must read).

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg

do "politics" and "media" count as a "religion"
don't you mean "abuse of collective influence"
that global abuse isn't just limited to religion,
but govt, POLITICAL PARTIES, corporations, nonprofits that commit fraud, etc.

Can't any "large group" lose accountability and start oppressing individual consent?

[MENTION=11281]sealybobo[/MENTION] why this insistence on blaming religion?

compare what damage Buddhism has done as a religion
compared to a large corporation or political parties that abuse their power?

isn't the issue "collective abuse" without check and balance by the people affected?

 

[emilynghiem]

I am facing the truth. Your religion is not the truth. And I can't fake belief. I call BULLSHIT on your religion. Maybe I'll take a look at the Muslims, Jews or Mormons or even Scientologists next. But yours? Not a chance that's real. Sorry. I can't believe you believe that shit. So funny. I stay up late watching your crooked pastors brainwashing the stupid sheep that make up your church. What a joke. Is that satan telling me that? Stupid people.

Hi [MENTION=11281]sealybobo[/MENTION] since you come from a secular perspective, which is my background also,
I can give you sources that make sense to me where the others do not.
The judgment/hell approach to God didn't make sense, nor did the idea that if Buddha taught enlightenment then why wasn't everyone enlightened after that?

1. For Christianity, to understand Universal Salvation -- Carlton Pearson might make sense to you. I believe hell is real and is overcome; he teaches there is no hell, but I disagree.
Just because it can be prevented and overcome doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

to understanding forgiveness bringing healing, new life and transforming people from dying to health, read HEALING by Francis MacNutt that explains this process in natural terms.

2. For secular and natural laws:
Buddhism
Constitutional laws and process/govt foundations

Scientology borrows spiritual concepts and process from both Buddhism and Christianity.
If you minus the cultish rules and monetary aspects, the actual process is effective of "auditing" one's mind and perceptions to be free of attachments that hinder your success.

The cultish division and rejection of other groups
is problematic in any groups, secular religious political or social.

So as long as you forgive any faults you find in any group or cultural system,
then you can benefit from the positive principles and process taught there.

The three that work best for me are
Buddhism
Christianity
Constitutionalism

* Buddhism is best for letting go so you can understand Truth or God without imposed biases or conflicts attached, and just focus on natural laws and process of life
* Christianity is best for healing through mutual forgiveness and correction to restore health in relations, body, mind, and spirit or collective level of humanity
* Constitutionalism is best for moderating "due process" and "petitioning" (using free speech and press) to redress grievances and establish law and order by consent in practice.

You might also relate to the
7 principles in Unitarian Universalism
(though I believe the trinity is a universal recurring theme in all religions and laws, and the Unitarians don't believe in teaching God as a Trinity. I believe "body/mind/spirit" represents human nature, and man is made in the image of God, so God/Christ/HolySpirit are symbols on a collective scale, meaning the individual is connected to the collective level by CONSCIENCE, so all three levels join in harmony)

 

[sealybobo]

BEFORE YOU START READING GOD'S WORD SAY TO GOD," GOD IF YOU ARE REAL SHOWME,SPEAK TO ME THROUGH YOUR WORD,I WANT TO KNOW IF YOU ARE REAL" GOD WILL HONOR THOSE WORDS IF YOU MEAN WHAT YOU SAY!!! 1000% Ask!!!

I did and he didn't speak back. Maybe he did to you because you are simple minded and gullible and wanted it so bad your mind heard what you wanted to hear. I don't know, but he didn't speak back to me and I asked him honestly and for a long long time.

Just like the early morning preacher who was selling holy water. Telling people if they call and order it they will get whatever they want/ask for. Liars.

 

[sealybobo]

I am facing the truth. Your religion is not the truth. And I can't fake belief. I call BULLSHIT on your religion. Maybe I'll take a look at the Muslims, Jews or Mormons or even Scientologists next. But yours? Not a chance that's real. Sorry. I can't believe you believe that shit. So funny. I stay up late watching your crooked pastors brainwashing the stupid sheep that make up your church. What a joke. Is that satan telling me that? Stupid people.

Hi [MENTION=11281]sealybobo[/MENTION] since you come from a secular perspective, which is my background also,
I can give you sources that make sense to me where the others do not.
The judgment/hell approach to God didn't make sense, nor did the idea that if Buddha taught enlightenment then why wasn't everyone enlightened after that?

1. For Christianity, to understand Universal Salvation -- Carlton Pearson might make sense to you. I believe hell is real and is overcome; he teaches there is no hell, but I disagree.
Just because it can be prevented and overcome doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

to understanding forgiveness bringing healing, new life and transforming people from dying to health, read HEALING by Francis MacNutt that explains this process in natural terms.

2. For secular and natural laws:
Buddhism
Constitutional laws and process/govt foundations

Scientology borrows spiritual concepts and process from both Buddhism and Christianity.
If you minus the cultish rules and monetary aspects, the actual process is effective of "auditing" one's mind and perceptions to be free of attachments that hinder your success.

The cultish division and rejection of other groups
is problematic in any groups, secular religious political or social.

So as long as you forgive any faults you find in any group or cultural system,
then you can benefit from the positive principles and process taught there.

The three that work best for me are
Buddhism
Christianity
Constitutionalism

* Buddhism is best for letting go so you can understand Truth or God without imposed biases or conflicts attached, and just focus on natural laws and process of life
* Christianity is best for healing through mutual forgiveness and correction to restore health in relations, body, mind, and spirit or collective level of humanity
* Constitutionalism is best for moderating "due process" and "petitioning" (using free speech and press) to redress grievances and establish law and order by consent in practice.

You might also relate to the
7 principles in Unitarian Universalism
(though I believe the trinity is a universal recurring theme in all religions and laws, and the Unitarians don't believe in teaching God as a Trinity. I believe "body/mind/spirit" represents human nature, and man is made in the image of God, so God/Christ/HolySpirit are symbols on a collective scale, meaning the individual is connected to the collective level by CONSCIENCE, so all three levels join in harmony)

So you believe the story that satan was a jealous angel and god cast him down to hell? You believe that story literally? If not, you are just making stuff up. What you like you accept and what you don't you disguard.

I think you can be spiritual and leave the christianity out of it.

 

[GISMYS]

BEFORE YOU START READING GOD'S WORD SAY TO GOD," GOD IF YOU ARE REAL SHOWME,SPEAK TO ME THROUGH YOUR WORD,I WANT TO KNOW IF YOU ARE REAL" GOD WILL HONOR THOSE WORDS IF YOU MEAN WHAT YOU SAY!!! 1000% Ask!!!

I did and he didn't speak back. Maybe he did to you because you are simple minded and gullible and wanted it so bad your mind heard what you wanted to hear. I don't know, but he didn't speak back to me and I asked him honestly and for a long long time.

Just like the early morning preacher who was selling holy water. Telling people if they call and order it they will get whatever they want/ask for. Liars.

WOULD A little guy LIE ABOUT READING GOD'S WORD AND PRAYING,WOULD HE SINK THAT LOW???