Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[ding]

Remember, we were talking about people who fail to experience God. They simply fail to "feel" God's presence as you or other believers might. That's the point. So many religious folks look at atheists and say "Just believe in God! It's simple!" But it really isn't that simple. One must feel God to have some sort of "relationship" with him. Otherwise you are simply "worshiping" something that doesn't even feel real to you.

From your own experiences you should know that relationships grow. Conceptual belief is just the starting point.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

From your own experiences you should know that relationships grow. Conceptual belief is just the starting point.

My experience is precisely why I am now an atheist.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

So ANY perception of God is equal in your eyes? That seems illogical to me.

No, I said "nope" because your answer has nothing to do with the Euthyphro Dilemma. You should look it up and then respond.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Just to clarify... my claim isn't that nothing can come from nothing.

So where did God come from?

My claim is existence cannot come from non-existence and that God IS existence.

God = Existence?

How does "existence" make things with intent as you have indicated God made the universe?

That mind has always existed as the matrix or source of the material world.

So God is also a mind? So God is a "mind" and "existence"? Anything else?

That the physical world is made of mind stuff.

What is the physical feature of "mind stuff"? How does "mind stuff" make the physical world?

As for a special pleading I see it more as the logical conclusion of a universe that pops into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence.

Where did God come from?

Just answer that question and the whole discussion goes away.

Where did God come from?

 

[ding]

Otherwise you are simply "worshiping" something that doesn't even feel real to you.

Maybe you don't understand what worship is or what its purpose is.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

Why do people have a need to believe in gods?

Because many need to believe there is a higher power no matter An, Odin, Gaia or Chaos and without it many would be lost and have no course to follow in life.

Why must people ask why people believe in a Divine?

 

[ding]

But the words should have some objective meaning.

What can be more objective than identifying the possibilities and working through each one?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Maybe you don't understand what worship is or what its purpose is.

Maybe I do understand it but I have a different experience from you and that comes across as a threat to your beliefs.

That is not the intent.

Just because someone fails to believe in an invisible being that is important to YOU does not mean that they are doing something "wrong". It means they fail to see evidence for the invisible being that convinces you.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

What can be more objective than identifying the possibilities and working through each one?

So is God the essence of "being-ness" that all mind-beings strive for? Is it the mind-being that becomes the mind-essence that then creates the mind-stuff that coalesce to become solids such that we can live within the mindstuff beingnessness?

 

[ding]

Why not just go with "eternal" and "unchanging"?

Because just saying God is eternal and unchanging doesn't convey that the material world is made of mind stuff and that was what I was conveying.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Because many need to believe there is a higher power no matter An, Odin, Gaia or Chaos and without it many would be lost and have no course to follow in life.

Why must people ask why people believe in a Divine?

I think your answer gets to the heart of the problem. There are a couple zillion different, often wildly MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE comprehensions of "God" that it ultimately looks more like personal imagination than actual existence of the God.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Because just saying God is eternal and unchanging doesn't convey that the material world is made of mind stuff and that was what I was conveying.

What is mind-stuff? Please explain it's features so that I might analyze some of it. Thanks.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

I think your answer gets to the heart of the problem. There are a couple zillion different, often wildly MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE comprehensions of "God" that it ultimately looks more like personal imagination than actual existence of the God.

Or it is one God and many see him, her or it in different ways…

Personally I believe let people believe what they want to believe and let me live in peace but alas most humans lack that way of thinking.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Or it is one God and many see him, her or it in different ways…

They key point in my post was "Mutually Exclusive". For instance, per Christian soteriology one CANNOT get salvation if one FAILS to accept Christ as your savior. That's rather specific which means that, according to at least this particular sect, "all roads do NOT lead to Heaven". Rather the opposite.

Personally I believe let people believe what they want to believe and let me live in peace but alas most humans lack that way of thinking.

I generally agree. I don't mind debating religion with folks, it's very interesting to me, but I totally understand why they have their religious faith. And so long as it doesn't harm anyone else or impose itself on others I'm absolutely FINE with them having their faith.

 

[ding]

By your earlier claim, though, no thing like that can actually exist. It cannot be "eternal" because everything comes from something. So you have claimed. You can't get something from nothing. Correct?

So why God? Why does God get to be the special case?

Hint: special pleading.

"Things" (i.e. matter and energy) cannot be eternal or unchanging; "things" come from something. God is no "thing" and as such has no such limitations. Try perceiving God as consciousness without form; beyond matter and energy.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

"Things" (i.e. matter and energy) cannot be eternal or unchanging; "things" come from something. God is no "thing" and as such has no such limitations.

If God is no thing but he's also "mind" then he's simultaneously no thing and some thing.

Unless you think "mind" is no thing. "Thoughts" are things. "Intellect" is a thing. "Intent" is a thing. "Will" is a thing. But you are saying God is no thing. That means He isn't even a "concept" since "concepts" are things.


Seems you are making a great argument that God does not exist. But I sense that is not what your argument is.

Perhaps you can tell us what "mind" is such that it can simultaneously BE and NOT BE.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

"Things" (i.e. matter and energy) cannot be eternal or unchanging;

Per whose definition? Sounds like you just made that one up.

 

[ding]

Why do they need a "purpose"? I'm serious. Why does there need to be a "purpose"?

If you study the natural world you will discover that everything is interconnected. Inherent to this interconnectedness is logic. In other words, everything that happens happens for logical reasons that serve a purpose. Everything serves some purpose naturally.

 

[ding]

That's very close to my perception of God. Just no space in between those two words. (In reality I'm what is called a "weak atheist" because, unlike strong atheists who claim "There is no God", I prefer the much more logical "I fail to see evidence for God". Strong atheists are making a universal negative claim which cannot be defended. Universal negatives are a big no-no in logic.

Most likely because you have an unrealistic perception and expectation of God. I see this all the time. You can't believe in God because bad things happen to good people or because you perceive the God of the OT is a meanie and did horrible violent things to His creatures.

 

[ding]

Something you have never seen. Something that, arguably, has never been found.

I found it. That's good enough for me. Especially since it altered the fabric of my identity for the better. I've been experiencing what some might call divine providence ever since.