Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[Cardinal Carminative]

Actually I have entered into a relationship with the creator and am enjoying the fruits of divine providence for my efforts. Whereas you are on the internet arguing about things you don't believe in.

Yes, you are a picture of mental health and clean living.

That's why you have created an entire thread on USMB listing the times you have angered people so that you may enjoy your trophies.

I'm sorry, ding, but you might want to re-read Matthew 7:3

(I assume you have access to a Bible and you can look that up.)

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

You have an external locus of control.

Ummm, says the guy who thinks the only reason he knows right from wrong is because GOD TOLD HIM.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

While the English translations do not do justice to the original Hebrew, and while cultural perspectives and perceptions can be miles apart, I do not see any account (or even translation) as deliberate untruths--i.e., lies.

So then God, through Samuel, DID command a genocide in 1 Sam 15?

Got it.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Actually I have entered into a relationship with the creator and am enjoying the fruits of divine providence for my efforts. Whereas you are on the internet arguing about things you don't believe in.

Speaking of things one doesn't believe in: you bear so much false witness on this board I begin to wonder if YOU believe in God.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

While the English translations do not do justice to the original Hebrew,

Why did God see fit to hide absolute fundamental truths in a language that is not spoken or even really known by the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of his followers?

Did God not realize that one day in the future His truths would be translated into the language of the people who worship him?

Seems like a limited God. But if God is NOT limited thusly, then it makes him something else not theologically appealing.

 

[Meriweather]

So then why believe ANYTHING in the Bible? I'm serious.

More apt: Why believe ANYTHING anyone says? Why limit it to the Bible?

I do take your question seriously. Someone had something to say to his original audience--a message/theme to get across. What is that theme? If you truly believe the author wrote the Amalekite account to let it be known to his and all generations that God and Jews were genocidal maniacs, there you go. Or, was he saying something else that his original audience understood, but was lost over time and translations?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

No. The Bible has many stories of God's manifestations. So do stories of Catholic saints and other Christians. My story(s) will just be more for you to dismiss, and for me, they are too precious to be dismissed. You need your own story. Then all the other stories make sense and are not so easily dismissed.

Fair enough point. You are unwilling to tell me what YOU experienced....but ironically you wanted to know what I expected.

I'd say that was a bit of hypocrisy but I'm sure you didn't plan it that way.

(PS - This is why I don't pursue further research into non-Catholic Christianity.

It is best to NOT know as much as possible about one's larger faith.

YOU have rejected the faith of my family because you know THE TRUTH. My family, my friends, are all following a faith you deem to be unfit.

Does that give you any pause? Or are you comfortable sitting at the right hand of the father?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

More apt: Why believe ANYTHING anyone says? Why limit it to the Bible?

I can verify what others say.

Or, was he saying something else that his original audience understood, but was lost over time and translations?

OK, fair enough. So do we just assume that ALL the murder and genocide in the OT are simple "mistranslations" but all the bits you DO LIKE are correct?

That sounds like confirmation bias.

 

[ding]

So then why believe ANYTHING in the Bible? I'm serious.

Because it contains important truths that went entirely over your head. For example, the fall of man. You don't have the slightest idea of what that was about because you dismissed it and never put in any serious thought into it.

 

[ding]

Yes, you are a picture of mental health and clean living.

That's why you have created an entire thread on USMB listing the times you have angered people so that you may enjoy your trophies.

I'm sorry, ding, but you might want to re-read Matthew 7:3

(I assume you have access to a Bible and you can look that up.)

Yes, I am. Thank you for noticing. I unbalanced you on day 1 and have been using your weight against you ever since. And you never even had a clue.

 

[Meriweather]

There's scant evidence if any of the Exodus. Why not just assume it was made up?

If it had been made up out of whole cloth, there would have been nothing of which the audience of his day could relate. Again, Exodus was written many generations later. With serious study, we see that the elements of the Exodus story--while not like a current news article--did piece together a story relatable to the Jews of the author's day. A study of Egyptian history reveals that they honored ten Gods who were in charge of making sure the ten Biblical plagues did not happen. While many modern scholars tend to agree that these plagues never happened one right after the other, they also agree one or more of these plagues did happen periodically in Egypt--thus the Egyptian Gods.

The point of the Hebrew story is they had One God who was more powerful than all ten of the Egyptian Gods. Further, a theory was also presented of the Exodus that seems more likely: One of the twelve tribes of Israel sojourned in Egypt. I believe it was the priestly tribe. They made their way out of Egypt (that land of pagans ) crossed the desert and the story of their journey became known throughout all of Judea. There are names in this priestly tribe that had Egyptian origins--and these names do not seem to have been used in the other tribes.

The Exodus story combined with stories of tribal warfare and a great story was presented with Hebrew themes running throughout. The main theme was that of God in their midst and the various laws by which their society was based and ruled.

 

[ding]

Ummm, says the guy who thinks the only reason he knows right from wrong is because GOD TOLD HIM.

Incorrect again. The next time you get something correct will be the first time.

 

[ding]

Speaking of things one doesn't believe in: you bear so much false witness on this board I begin to wonder if YOU believe in God.

I'm surprised you didn't implode from the irony.

 

[Meriweather]

There's scant contemporaneous evidence of Jesus' existence. Why not just assume it was made up?

There is contemporary evidence as scant as it may be. The powers of the time--considering the expense of parchment and ink--didn't spend much time on anything other than the ruling class. Jesus was far from that.

 

[Meriweather]

Why believe ANYTHING in the bible if SOME of it is just "made up"?

Again, the themes and lessons are true. They are based on history, some of it quite accurate, some not so much. Gone With the Wind is a good example of my point. It is historical fiction. It has some historical facts, but the theme is more about people overcoming the great (and real) odds the war showered upon the population.

I reiterate: In each Bible story, What is the theme, what is the lesson? It is in these themes and lessons where truth shines.

 

[Meriweather]

So you think that the authors thought God commanded a genocide but really God didn't? That they just wrote that?

How do you differentiate between stuff that was made up about God and stuff that is REAL about God in the Bible?

You use the word 'genocide'. In fact, later stories inform us the Amalekites survived. There is also the translation problem where there are instances where sometimes what is translated as 'city' is more accurately more of an 'encampment'.

When researching, it is good to start with known historical facts found outside the Bible. No known Amalekites. So who did the Israelites consider Amalekites? Jews were descendants of Jacob, the brother who stole Esau's inheritance. What we have here is a kind of family feud that had been going on for generations. Jacob's descendants had tribes, as did Esau's. What we see described, then, as any Jewish tribe running into any non-Jewish tribe (that seems collectively were known as Amalekites).

What is real is how the Jews saw their situation(s) and how they saw God's hand in their life and history. They present themselves as a people following God and His ways. It is fairly easy to figure out what are God's ways and what are human ways. Throw in a little human psychology where no one likes to be wrong and that makes for a legitimate question:

Did God command the enemy be killed, or did order come from humans? We.don't.know. We can speculate and opine, but what we know is that basis of Abrahamic religions of that time is that all that happened is seen as the will of God. If it happened, then it was God's will--both victory and defeat. Modern Western culture does not see all that happens as the will of God. People of faith see it more as God knows all that happens, but humans have free will.

 

[Meriweather]

So then God, through Samuel, DID command a genocide in 1 Sam 15?

Got it.

Sure you do.

 

[Meriweather]

Why did God see fit to hide absolute fundamental truths in a language that is not spoken or even really known by the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of his followers?

It is not hidden. Or, if it is, it is certainly hidden in plain sight. I found it. Perhaps not easily because it takes so much time and research, but then I enjoy research.

 

[Meriweather]

Did God not realize that one day in the future His truths would be translated into the language of the people who worship him?

He also knows we are intelligent beings, capable of getting to the truth, despite changes in words and languages.

 

[Meriweather]

Seems like a limited God. But if God is NOT limited thusly, then it makes him something else not theologically appealing.

Humans sometimes have a habit of limiting themselves...not to mention the habit of blaming someone else for their limitations.

Argue for your limitations and you get to keep them. (Richard Bach)