Why does the left demonize affordable energy?

[Wyatt earp]

Your lazy ass wouldn't last one second in a German union.I know I am half German and worked for a U.S. German company before.

You have no fucking idea when it comes to Germany .

I'm half German, and I've worked for British and Japanese companies as well as American. I'd do just fine in a German Union.

Now, here's the thing, I do think that American Unions have their problems. But they are better than the alternative.

I've seen people fired for being gay, fired for getting pregnant, fired for having medical issues, fired because their ex-girlfriend started sleeping with a manager. And that's the shit I know about, there's probably a lot more than I don't.

My ass you are...no way in he'll with your crappy ass work ethnic and attitude would you last one second in a German run company.


.

 

[Andylusion]

Why does anybody shill for big oil?

Oh gee... let's see... why would anyone support big oil? Huh....

This is a tiny list of the hundreds of thousands of things made from oil, that big oil companies produce.

Now tell me... what has the left-wing that hates big oil.... what have they produced? Solyndra? Hydrogen Cars? EV-1? The Chevy Volt no one drives? I'd be hard pressed to find anything the left has produced, that has made my life better.

Oil....Pretty much everything? The left has done nothing but harm society. Oil has created our entire civilization. So why would anyone shill for oil? Because we enjoy the highest standard of living in the world, and Oil has been a key feature in that.

The better question is why the left is not a shill for oil, when the only reason they enjoy their luxury lifestyle is due to oil.

 

[there4eyeM]

Non sequitur.

 

[Andylusion]

Your lazy ass wouldn't last one second in a German union.I know I am half German and worked for a U.S. German company before.

You have no fucking idea when it comes to Germany .

I'm half German, and I've worked for British and Japanese companies as well as American. I'd do just fine in a German Union.

Now, here's the thing, I do think that American Unions have their problems. But they are better than the alternative.

I've seen people fired for being gay, fired for getting pregnant, fired for having medical issues, fired because their ex-girlfriend started sleeping with a manager. And that's the shit I know about, there's probably a lot more than I don't.

German Unions are pro-corporation. American Unions are anti-corporation. German Unions work to make the company profitable. American Union work to drive the company into bankruptcy.

If you went into a German Union, with your anti-company attitude that you have displayed here... you wouldn't be there long.

Also, it's always amazing to meet some hypocrite who would scream and yell when someone else is doing something, but we both you know you do the same thing if you were the one in charge.

I worked at a company that 'fired' someone for medical issues. And honestly... you can't pay people to not work. The money to pay wages, comes from work. It's not the magic money tree in the back yard. If you don't work, how do you expect the employer to pay you?

Some guy shows up at your house offering to seal your drive way, and blacktop it. You agree, and then he shows up, hits his toe with a hammer, and then shows up the next day with a doctors notice "This guy can't work", but you are still expected to pay him for the job he didn't do?

All of you left-wingers, if that happened, you wouldn't pay him. But the moment it's some business, or company somewhere, that has an employee that smacks his hand with a stapler, suddenly they should pay them for not working.

You all are hypocrites. The entire left-wing ideology, is the universal ideology of hypocrisy.

 

[JoeB131]

My ass you are...no way in he'll with your crappy ass work ethnic and attitude would you last one second in a German run company.

You don't know a darn thing about my work ethic, guy, and I'm probably more successful than you are. (Seriously, your picture just screams "white Trash")

I'd do just fine at a German company. I kind of like where I am at, though.

 

[JoeB131]

German Unions are pro-corporation. American Unions are anti-corporation. German Unions work to make the company profitable. American Union work to drive the company into bankruptcy.

Are you some kind of a retard? Germany Unions have a say in who the CEO of the company is. German work councils can cancel or stop projects and policies. And, oh, yeah, German Auto Workers make more than American Auto Workers.

In fact, when the UAW tried to organize a Volkswagen Plant down in JesusLand, (my loving name for the backward ass, white trash, third world red states that keep this country from truly progressing) VW was fine with it. Who wasn't fine with it? The dumb-ass rednecks who run that state.

 

[Andylusion]

German Unions are pro-corporation. American Unions are anti-corporation. German Unions work to make the company profitable. American Union work to drive the company into bankruptcy.

Are you some kind of a retard? Germany Unions have a say in who the CEO of the company is. German work councils can cancel or stop projects and policies. And, oh, yeah, German Auto Workers make more than American Auto Workers.

In fact, when the UAW tried to organize a Volkswagen Plant down in JesusLand, (my loving name for the backward ass, white trash, third world red states that keep this country from truly progressing) VW was fine with it. Who wasn't fine with it? The dumb-ass rednecks who run that state.

How non-judgemental and egalitarian of you.

To everyone else who might read this.....

Let this be a lesson to every single one of you, about what the left-wing is really about. They talk about being equal, and standing for the poor, and not being discriminatory... but this right here, is the how they really think. They consider everyone else "backward ass" and "white trust" and "third world red states" and "JesusLand". That how the left really looks at people who are poorer, or less educated, or not as "enlightened" as they are.

To a left-winger, everyone who doesn't agree with them, is just pond scum.

So every time you hear a left-winger talk about how they care about the poor, or downtrodden... just remember this left-wingers post. This is what they really think.

Back to you....

German Unions don't really have a say in who is CEO. And German unions are extremely pro-corporation. By the way, IG Metall was against the UAW unionizing. They wanted work councils, like they have in Germany, that are pro-corporation. When UAW first tried to Unionize, IG Metall actually walked away from the talks. That should tell you a lot. By the way, one thing the Pro-Union people never talk about, is that Worker's Councils in Germany, are not inherently union. 30% or more have no Union affiliation.

Volkswagen works council and IG Metall back executive bonuses - World Socialist Web Site

You can verify this information anywhere, but I find it fitting this should come from the pro-Union socialist web page.

Let's look at IG Metall's views in practice....

As for the trade unions and works council, which claim to “represent” VW workers, they have functioned as co-conspirators in this looting operation. At the same time, the organisations have signalled their support for the elimination of more than 10,000 jobs.
In early March, Wolfgang Porsche whose family owns a majority of Volkswagen shares, said that the company would carry out job cuts “if it was determined that we have an excess of personnel in individual areas.” According to Deutsche Welle, “Porsche’s words were welcomed by the head of the company’s works council, Bernd Osterloh, who saw them as a departure from the board’s earlier ‘policy of speechlessness’ over its decision to cut VW’s overhead costs by 1 billion euros ($1.1 billion) a year in the wake of its emissions scandal.”
Defying the angry protests of workers and media criticism, the supervisory board decided at its April 23 meeting to make no changes in the bonus system. Although the company has suffered billions in losses from the scandal, the committee announced that the paying of bonuses would be delayed, but not cut, and certainly not eliminated.​

See the difference? Even the "workers councils" are pro-corporation. They support the elimination of 10,000 jobs, if that's what it takes for the company to grow and survive. They support bonuses for executives if they guide the company through a rocky time.

The article goes on to say that VW's CEO earned over $20 Million, which is larger than that of the current Walmart CEO.

Now, do German auto workers make more than US workers? Sort of.....

First off, I want to make a point here about protectionism. German auto workers do in fact earn more than US auto workers. Now the claim we here from the left, and pro-protectionist people, is that the US can't compete with low wage countries like China. Well.... to Germany, WE are the low wage country, and they still seem to be able to compete.

But even so, there are a few things to consider.

First, you people fail to grasp that workers are paid from the value of the labor they produce. Period. The company has no control over how much your labor is worth. The customer does. If the customer isn't willing to pay $50,000 for Chevy Metro, then it isn't worth a million dollars.

Cars in Germany are super expensive, even at the base level. A basic VW Jetta in the US, costs about $17,600. The exact same car in Germany, base level VW Jetta, is $26,000. Now can you figure this out lefty? Higher price means you can pay workers more money? Right?

Of course because cars are so expensive in German, 30% fewer people own them. By the way, if you do some research (as I have), you'll find that workers at auto plants that make more expensive vehicles, are unsurprisingly earning more money. Take Ford's Louisville, Ky plant, where they make the Lincoln Navigator. Isn't very shocking to find the far more expensive car, has employees that are paid far more to build them.

Second, you people also ignore that the higher wages are not kept by the workers. Yeah, they are paid more, but they keep less of what they make.

For example, your Social Security is 10% of your wage. Plus, 1.5% goes to unemployment compensation. Plus, 1.5% nursing tax. Plus, 7.3% health care tax. And lastly, you might have to pay an additional 1% tax depending on what type of private health insurance you get. So you are going to lose 20% of your wage..... and that's BEFORE income tax.

Income tax is a minimum 14% of your income, and it scales up 42% if you go over the 52K Euros ($58K) per year. Oh, and by the way, they also have a nifty 5.5% surcharge. The surcharge is on how much you pay in tax. So if you have to pay 1,000 Euros in tax, you magically get to pay an extra 55 Euros on top.

So the bottom line is, yes German auto workers are paid more money... that's true. But they lose 1/5th of their check, plus income tax.

Lastly, they flat out work more. There are dozens of stories about how in Germany, when you are work.... you work. I don't know how else to explain this, because everyone seems to think they work hard, when they are not working. I don't know if this applies directly to you Joe Blow... but I've seen this personally.

I was working at a company, and this guy walked in, sat down on a chair, put his feet up on the desk, and proceeded to tell everyone what a hard worker he was, and how he couldn't ever imagine getting a second job, when he just worked so dang hard.... (this actually happened).

I was actually waiting for a punch line. I just assumed he was getting ready to tell us a joke. But he was serious. He worked reeeeeallly hard with his feet up on that desk, butt in a chair. Telling us how hard he worked, is proof enough of how hard he worked. In fact just telling us this, was hard work. And this guy complained non-stop about how little he was paid. The irony apparently lost.

But like I said before, you pay employees out of the value of their labor. When you produce more, you earn more, and the fact is they produce more in Germany, than American workers do, and thus are paid more.

Now as a side note, German Union participation has fallen dramatically, and wages have also fallen dramatically. Fewer and fewer workers at German auto plants, are Unionized, and fewer of them are paid Union wages. When the Trade Unions publish all their data on auto wages in Germany, they avoid collecting non-Union non-full-time wage data. Thus it looks like German Auto workers are earning a ton more than US workers, when the fact is, they are not. Last data I looked at, showed an average wage of $25 compared to US $23 dollars.

And by the way, this too is also supported by the German unions. Remember, German unions are pro-corporation. They actually think the companies that provide them jobs, and wages, and products and wealth.... are good.

 

[JoeB131]

Let this be a lesson to every single one of you, about what the left-wing is really about. They talk about being equal, and standing for the poor, and not being discriminatory... but this right here, is the how they really think. They consider everyone else "backward ass" and "white trust" and "third world red states" and "JesusLand". That how the left really looks at people who are poorer, or less educated, or not as "enlightened" as they are.

yes, when you are ignorant, racist, and full of backward ass superstitions to the point where you vote against your own (and my) economic interests, I will tend to look down on you.

The South has ALWAYS been a third world country. Our biggest mistake was letting them continue to stand tall after the Civil War, when we should have shamed them the way we did Germany and Japan.

German Unions don't really have a say in who is CEO.

Uh, yeah, they do. BY LAW

Mitbestimmungsgesetz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It applies to all German capital companies, including public companies (Aktiengesellschaft), cooperatives (eingetragene Genossenschaft), private limited companies (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung) and partnerships (Kommanditgesellschaft auf Aktien) if they have over 2000 employees. Employees and national unions have equal representation on the supervisory board with the stockholders, but the board’s chairman must be a stockholder who has a tie-breaking vote.[3]

The principle is to have almost equal representation between employee representatives and shareholder representatives on the supervisory board (Aufsichtsrat). Germany company law has two levels of boards of directors. The supervisory board then elects a management board which leads the company. The head of the supervisory board is always a shareholder representative who has two votes in case of a deadlock.

Under the Codetermination Act, the supervisory board must have 12, 16 or 20 members depending on the company's size. Two or three seats will usually be reserved for union representatives. the other seats will be workers, officials and appointees of other interest groups.

Companies with equal representation on their boards must have a dedicated management board position for labor affairs.[4]Codetermination allows employees and not only unions to influence the operations of firms and their surplus.[4]

Correcting your ignorance could be a full time job.

 

[Andylusion]

Let this be a lesson to every single one of you, about what the left-wing is really about. They talk about being equal, and standing for the poor, and not being discriminatory... but this right here, is the how they really think. They consider everyone else "backward ass" and "white trust" and "third world red states" and "JesusLand". That how the left really looks at people who are poorer, or less educated, or not as "enlightened" as they are.

yes, when you are ignorant, racist, and full of backward ass superstitions to the point where you vote against your own (and my) economic interests, I will tend to look down on you.

The South has ALWAYS been a third world country. Our biggest mistake was letting them continue to stand tall after the Civil War, when we should have shamed them the way we did Germany and Japan.

German Unions don't really have a say in who is CEO.

Uh, yeah, they do. BY LAW

Mitbestimmungsgesetz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It applies to all German capital companies, including public companies (Aktiengesellschaft), cooperatives (eingetragene Genossenschaft), private limited companies (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung) and partnerships (Kommanditgesellschaft auf Aktien) if they have over 2000 employees. Employees and national unions have equal representation on the supervisory board with the stockholders, but the board’s chairman must be a stockholder who has a tie-breaking vote.[3]

The principle is to have almost equal representation between employee representatives and shareholder representatives on the supervisory board (Aufsichtsrat). Germany company law has two levels of boards of directors. The supervisory board then elects a management board which leads the company. The head of the supervisory board is always a shareholder representative who has two votes in case of a deadlock.

Under the Codetermination Act, the supervisory board must have 12, 16 or 20 members depending on the company's size. Two or three seats will usually be reserved for union representatives. the other seats will be workers, officials and appointees of other interest groups.

Companies with equal representation on their boards must have a dedicated management board position for labor affairs.[4]Codetermination allows employees and not only unions to influence the operations of firms and their surplus.[4]

Correcting your ignorance could be a full time job.

Yeah blaw blaw blaw blaw... I don't really need your reasons and rationalizations for being a judgemental, arrogant, stuck up, hate filled, bit of condemning left-wing trash. Thanks but I don't care. You being a jerk, for any reason, is still just a stuck up self-centered arrogant trash pile.... being a jerk. So thanks for your little FYI about how "right you are" in being a left-wing trash spewing jerk... but I don't need it. No one else does either. Keep your holier-than-thou crap to yourself, and other scummy trash like you. Ok? Just keep your smelly disgusting rationalization crap away from the rest of us. None of us care about the reasons for your blithering idiocy.

Yes, by law no one is supposed to have cocaine and meth in the US. By law, really doesn't matter much does it?

Yes, in theory the German Unions could according to the law, control who is CEO. I have yet to see an example where that has actually happened.

Matthias Müller was CEO of Porsche in 2010. He had a number of jobs within Porsche prior to. Porsche owns 51% stake in Volkswagen, and when the CEO of VW stepped down after the emissions scandal, Muller was appointed CEO, which is what Porsche wanted.

Sounds pretty much exactly the same as how things like that would go here.

So all that BS about how the Unions determine who the CEO is in Germany.... yeah... ok nice law.... just like meth is illegal here, it doesn't conform to reality. Pretty much the executives appoint the CEO just like in any other major corporation.

Same with Rupert Stadler of Audi. He was CFO before that, and served on the board of directors since 1997, and served in management before that.

He was appointed by the executive directors to be CEO. Again... just like any other company in any other country. Yes yes blaw blaw blaw, the law says..... but in practice.... it's exactly the same as anywhere else.

I'm more than open to hear a counter example. Which CEO of a German corporation was removed by the Unions or Worker Councils (which are not the same as Unions anyway)? What example would you point to. I'll look it up. I'm open to new information.

 

[JoeB131]

Yeah blaw blaw blaw blaw... I don't really need your reasons and rationalizations for being a judgemental, arrogant, stuck up, hate filled, bit of condemning left-wing trash. Thanks but I don't care. You being a jerk, for any reason, is still just a stuck up self-centered arrogant trash pile.... being a jerk. So thanks for your little FYI about how "right you are" in being a left-wing trash spewing jerk... but I don't need it. No one else does either. Keep your holier-than-thou crap to yourself, and other scummy trash like you. Ok? Just keep your smelly disgusting rationalization crap away from the rest of us. None of us care about the reasons for your blithering idiocy.

duly noted that you've been smoked on the issue.

The problem with you redneck bible thumpers is most of you have no idea how stupid you are. You cling to your guns and your bibles and watch the big corporations continue to take away everything your grandparents fought for when they marched on picket lines against the greed of big corporations.

I mean, I could go on about how truly ABSURD Christianity is. I never get tired of mocking the idea of eating an imaginary God-Man because of a talking snake. But unfortunately, you guys being a malleable as you are has an effect, and your bad decisions have consequences for the rest of us.

I could mock how you dumb-ass rednecks look back at the confederacy like it was a good thing. "Yup, my Great-Grandpappy/Uncle done fought so that a few rich people could keep owning other people! Dixie forever". You see, Germans look back at WWII with a profound sense of shame. Japanese like to avoid talking about WWII. But not you inbreds. YOu all talk about that like it was something to be proud of instead of a profoundly stupid thing to do.

I'm more than open to hear a counter example. Which CEO of a German corporation was removed by the Unions or Worker Councils (which are not the same as Unions anyway)? What example would you point to. I'll look it up. I'm open to new information.

No, you aren't. The example you cited was one where the union and the management agreed that VW had an image problem that needed to be fixed due to a bad decision made by management.

Frankly, what Germany has could be the future for this country- Employee ownership and employee management.

Why does this concept terrify you?

 

[Andylusion]

I'm more than open to hear a counter example. Which CEO of a German corporation was removed by the Unions or Worker Councils (which are not the same as Unions anyway)? What example would you point to. I'll look it up. I'm open to new information.

No, you aren't. The example you cited was one where the union and the management agreed that VW had an image problem that needed to be fixed due to a bad decision made by management.

Frankly, what Germany has could be the future for this country- Employee ownership and employee management.

Why does this concept terrify you?

Apparently you missed where I really don't care about your rationalizations for being a stuck up, arrogant, self-centered, narcissistic creep. I really don't care, and I'm going to delete the sections that I don't care about from now on. Keep your rationalizations for being a jerk to yourself. All decent people, don't buy your excuses, and thus we don't need to hear them.

So that's your only example? The former CEO of VW resigned. There is no evidence that he was given an ultimatum. There is no evidence that he was asked to step down. At least none that I have seen.

Now I realize that you simply fit the facts to your claims.... but I look at the facts, and determine my claims.

If you want to convince me that the Unions had anything to do with it... here is the evidence I need.

Show me where a Union had a CEO removed that the executive team was in favor of?
Show me where a Union nominated their own CEO, over the heads of the executives?
Show me where a Union absolutely refused a CEO the executive team nominated?

All you pointed out, was that the Unions agreed with the executive team on who replaced a CEO that on his own, resigned. "we agree!" isn't an example of showing you have any power in the situation.

 

[JoeB131]

I really don't care, and I'm going to delete the sections that I don't care about from now on.

great. I will do the same.

Oh, wait. that would be everything you say.

I guess we are done here.

 

[JoeB131]

So that's your only example? The former CEO of VW resigned. There is no evidence that he was given an ultimatum. There is no evidence that he was asked to step down. At least none that I have seen.

Okay, i fibbed. You were the one who brought up VW's CEO stepping down, but that was a forgone conclusion. No way that guy stayed after what he pulled.

Point was, German unions have a say in how their companies are run by German law. I know this horrifies you, being from JesusLand were you are all used to be told what to do by your betters.

 

[Andylusion]

I really don't care, and I'm going to delete the sections that I don't care about from now on.

great. I will do the same.

Oh, wait. that would be everything you say.

I guess we are done here.

Fantastic. It doesn't bother me one bit when a moron removes himself from the discussion. By all means remove everything I say, and leave.

 

[JoeB131]

Fantastic. It doesn't bother me one bit when a moron removes himself from the discussion. By all means remove everything I say, and leave.

well, since i already mopped the floor with you, there's not much else to day, is there?

 

[Andylusion]

So that's your only example? The former CEO of VW resigned. There is no evidence that he was given an ultimatum. There is no evidence that he was asked to step down. At least none that I have seen.

Okay, i fibbed. You were the one who brought up VW's CEO stepping down, but that was a forgone conclusion. No way that guy stayed after what he pulled.

Point was, German unions have a say in how their companies are run by German law. I know this horrifies you....

Of course you fibbed, mr blaw blaw blaw. Left-wingers are habitual liars, and you are no exception.

Yes, I am the one who brought it up to point out that the Unions had nothing to do with it, and neither this post, nor the prior contradicts.

Again, you failed to provide an example of your claim. Thus once again, I claim you are full of it.

You said they determine who is CEO of their company. I posted counter examples, and demanded you provide actual proof that Unions control who is CEO.

You have provided no such example, and thus once again are proven false.

By the way, Union membership in Germany has consistently fallen year over year. Barely 17% of jobs are Union now. So even your "by the law" crap doesn't apply to the vast majority of all companies operating in Germany.

 

[Andylusion]

Fantastic. It doesn't bother me one bit when a moron removes himself from the discussion. By all means remove everything I say, and leave.

well, since i already mopped the floor with you, there's not much else to day, is there?

And yet you keep talking... indicating you have not mopped the floor with anyone.

You remind me of the Chevy Metro, with "sport" written on the side. Hint: If you have to write "sport" on the side of the car to let everyone know it's sporty.... then it isn't.

Hint: If you have to tell everyone that you mopped the floor with someone.... then you didn't.

If it makes you feel better, I'll pretend that you won the argument: "You win Pigeon". Hope that helps you feel better about yourself.

 

[JoeB131]

Of course you fibbed, mr blaw blaw blaw. Left-wingers are habitual liars, and you are no exception.

Yes, I am the one who brought it up to point out that the Unions had nothing to do with it, and neither this post, nor the prior contradicts.

Again, you failed to provide an example of your claim. Thus once again, I claim you are full of it.

Guy, the German law is the German Law. Period.

 

[Andylusion]

Of course you fibbed, mr blaw blaw blaw. Left-wingers are habitual liars, and you are no exception.

Yes, I am the one who brought it up to point out that the Unions had nothing to do with it, and neither this post, nor the prior contradicts.

Again, you failed to provide an example of your claim. Thus once again, I claim you are full of it.

Guy, the German law is the German Law. Period.

Yes yes pigeon. You win again.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes yes pigeon. You win again.

well, it's pretty easy when dealing with stupid people. conservatism is like battered wife syndrome. No matter how often the One Percent beats you, you'll keep making excuses for them.