Why don't people understand that this argument is already lost?

[Unkotare]

The whole Birth Control abortion issue has to do with keeping women sexuality under Patriarchal control like the Morally superior one man social agency to help women that is posting on here ...."kicking my ass" LOL

Yeah, those women who got three quarters of a million abortions last year were forced to spread their legs and fuck their brains out.

Watch out! You are getting very close to demonizing only women for irresponsible sex....what happened to the one who carries the sperm? We never hear about what HE should have done, do we? There's never any judgment against the young men who are injudiciously spewing their sperm. It's always just about those slutty women spreadin' 'em. Because they get caught holding the bag, women have no opportunity to disappear into the night without giving two shits what they've done.

I think there is judgment of them, and most people think they should be held equally responsible - at least.

 

[OldLady]

No child should be deprived of the right to live. If children are born into poverty, help them, don't tell pregnant women to abort them because they can't afford them.

Why would you do that?

I'm one of those 'stupid' single women who got pregnant at 18 and quick got married and had the baby and within a year had left my husband who was too young and too much of an alcholic to take responsibility for marriage. Guess who ended up taking all the responsibility and struggling to raise that baby alone? I wouldn't change anything if I could do it over, except for not being pregnant at that point in my life; it changed the course of my life completely, and it wasn't any bed of roses for my son, either.
If you have not raised a child alone in poverty, you have no right to make any kind of judgment on this issue. None.

And your point is what? That you are not responsible for your own actions? That some drunk talked you into it? Seems to me like you are of the mindset that it wasn't your decision to get pregnant. I know several women who made a bad decision, got pregnant and raised a child on their own. members of MY community (the black community) have been doing that for years. So what? The one who suffers isn't you - or the absent Father, it's the child that grows up not knowing a two-parent family.

Can a single mother raise a child successfully? of course it can and it is done often. But with a little restraint on the part of both parties - this might not happen as often as it does. Hell, I'm no hypocrite, I had a couple of close calls and I had friends who got women pregnant and left. THEY ARE ASSHOLES AND NOT MEN. Fortunately, because of a strong family, Mom and Dad, I never fell into that hole. "There but by the Grace of God go I"

"There but by the Grace of God go I" That's pretty much my point, Randall. I was arguing against people who don't understand the circumstances behind a lot of abortion decisions. They've not been poor, they've not been single women trying to work long hours to keep a rathole roof over her child's head, and be mom and be dad all at once. I raised mine successfully; I had the legal choice to terminate that pregnancy but I could not personally do it, so I took the responsibility for my mistake. Unfortunatley, Daddy did not because in this society, Daddy's don't have to. I did suffer for it and my child suffered for it and fortunately we both came through it, same as many single moms do.

 

[Unkotare]

.... in this society, Daddy's don't have to. ....

That's not true.

 

[OldLady]

.... in this society, Daddy's don't have to. ....

That's not true.

I hope you're right, and I do realize that a lot of Daddy's want to make things right. But I've followed this thread from the start and the arguments were never acknowledging that it takes two to tango. Honestly, I just hate that 'women spreadin' 'em' phrase. Set me off.

 

[OldLady]

The whole Birth Control abortion issue has to do with keeping women sexuality under Patriarchal control like the Morally superior one man social agency to help women that is posting on here ...."kicking my ass" LOL

Yeah, those women who got three quarters of a million abortions last year were forced to spread their legs and fuck their brains out.

Watch out! You are getting very close to demonizing only women for irresponsible sex....what happened to the one who carries the sperm? We never hear about what HE should have done, do we? There's never any judgment against the young men who are injudiciously spewing their sperm. It's always just about those slutty women spreadin' 'em. Because they get caught holding the bag, women have no opportunity to disappear into the night without giving two shits what they've done.

Men don't get pregnant so they are more casual about sex. Humans have known this for some time. That said, a guy is held accountable with a dna test, assuming the gal knows his real name and location. Nature and gender play a role in wise decision making.

A Jewish friend tells me that back in the day, Jews gave their children the mother's last name, because it was the only one they could be 100% sure of....I am certainly aware of what you are saying. An amazing number of men with past due child support owing paid up when our state began withholding hunting licenses to men who had child support pending. That's the truth. A lot of them will work under the table instead; there are always ways to remain unaccountable.

 

[Unkotare]

.... in this society, Daddy's don't have to. ....

That's not true.

I hope you're right, and I do realize that a lot of Daddy's want to make things right. But I've followed this thread from the start and the arguments were never acknowledging that it takes two to tango. Honestly, I just hate that 'women spreadin' 'em' phrase. Set me off.

That is a troll phrase intended to set you off. Don't take the bait.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

The whole Birth Control abortion issue has to do with keeping women sexuality under Patriarchal control like the Morally superior one man social agency to help women that is posting on here ...."kicking my ass" LOL

Yeah, those women who got three quarters of a million abortions last year were forced to spread their legs and fuck their brains out.

Watch out! You are getting very close to demonizing only women for irresponsible sex....what happened to the one who carries the sperm? We never hear about what HE should have done, do we? There's never any judgment against the young men who are injudiciously spewing their sperm. It's always just about those slutty women spreadin' 'em. Because they get caught holding the bag, women have no opportunity to disappear into the night without giving two shits what they've done.

I don't judge you for having sex. That'd be stupid. I just judge you for caring about yourself more than your children. There's a pretty sharp difference. Everyone has the right to have consensual sex, because it doesn't pose a threat to anyone. Not everyone deserves the ability to make babies, because having a parent who doesn't love you is damaging to a child.

 

[OldLady]

The whole Birth Control abortion issue has to do with keeping women sexuality under Patriarchal control like the Morally superior one man social agency to help women that is posting on here ...."kicking my ass" LOL

Yeah, those women who got three quarters of a million abortions last year were forced to spread their legs and fuck their brains out.

Watch out! You are getting very close to demonizing only women for irresponsible sex....what happened to the one who carries the sperm? We never hear about what HE should have done, do we? There's never any judgment against the young men who are injudiciously spewing their sperm. It's always just about those slutty women spreadin' 'em. Because they get caught holding the bag, women have no opportunity to disappear into the night without giving two shits what they've done.

I don't judge you for having sex. That'd be stupid. I just judge you for caring about yourself more than your children. There's a pretty sharp difference. Everyone has the right to have consensual sex, because it doesn't pose a threat to anyone. Not everyone deserves the ability to make babies, because having a parent who doesn't love you is damaging to a child.

Well, I'm not sure who you're responding to here, but it certainly isn't me, so I'll pretty much leave this alone. Your statement "having a parent who doesn't love you is damaging to a child," is one of the reasons I am pro-choice.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

The primary issue I see here is that the pro-abortion side fundamentally does not want to understand that, once you have a child, your life is no longer about you. The idea that an individual's wants are no longer relevant just isn't going to be popular with a culture that glorifies adolescent thinking. Like this:

Well, I'm not sure who you're responding to here, but it certainly isn't me, so I'll pretty much leave this alone. Your statement "having a parent who doesn't love you is damaging to a child," is one of the reasons I am pro-choice.

These people generally have an academic grasp on the idea that people should only conceive children they can love. They just aren't willing to put that idea into practice in their own lives. Having kids isn't about taking upon themselves the responsibility of creating, raising, and loving the next generation of human beings to them. It's merely about gaining possessions and status symbols that they can dispose of at a whim. The reason their arguments are solidly adolescent and egocentric is because their priorities are still solidly adolescent and egocentric at root. If we as pro-life advocates - and especially those of us who fall in the Millennial generation born to unfuck all the damage our grandparents did to our families, society, and world - really care for these kids at all then we need to prove it by saving whom we can and changing our focus to removing born children from dangerous individuals and situations. Damaged parents create damaged children who grow up into damaged parents themselves. It's only by reserving that responsibility for the remaining mature, healthy adults who are capable of genuine parental love that we can break it.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"Why don't people understand that this argument is already lost?"

Wrong question.

Correct question: why do most conservatives refuse to accept the fact that women have a right to privacy, that the state cannot compel a woman to give birth against her will, and that decisions as to whether to have a child or not are best left to individuals, not the government.

 

[OldLady]

The primary issue I see here is that the pro-abortion side fundamentally does not want to understand that, once you have a child, your life is no longer about you. The idea that an individual's wants are no longer relevant just isn't going to be popular with a culture that glorifies adolescent thinking. Like this:

Well, I'm not sure who you're responding to here, but it certainly isn't me, so I'll pretty much leave this alone. Your statement "having a parent who doesn't love you is damaging to a child," is one of the reasons I am pro-choice.

These people generally have an academic grasp on the idea that people should only conceive children they can love. They just aren't willing to put that idea into practice in their own lives. Having kids isn't about taking upon themselves the responsibility of creating, raising, and loving the next generation of human beings to them. It's merely about gaining possessions and status symbols that they can dispose of at a whim. The reason their arguments are solidly adolescent and egocentric is because their priorities are still solidly adolescent and egocentric at root. If we as pro-life advocates - and especially those of us who fall in the Millennial generation born to unfuck all the damage our grandparents did to our families, society, and world - really care for these kids at all then we need to prove it by saving whom we can and changing our focus to removing born children from dangerous individuals and situations. Damaged parents create damaged children who grow up into damaged parents themselves. It's only by reserving that responsibility for the remaining mature, healthy adults who are capable of genuine parental love that we can break it.

So, involuntary sterilization of whom? Having CPS remove all children from a mother who has an abortion? It is entirely true that "once you have a child, your life is no longer about you." I believe that adolescents or adults who are not willing to go there will do better to have the abortion and save the child a life of suffering.
Don't get me wrong; I commend all efforts to give young pregnant women all the options that can be made available, including adoption or keeping the baby if that is practicable. But you are dreaming if you think that the foster system can handle that many children. It is not even sensible. Please grow up!

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

"Why don't people understand that this argument is already lost?"

Wrong question.

Correct question: why do most conservatives refuse to accept the fact that women have a right to privacy, that the state cannot compel a woman to give birth against her will, and that decisions as to whether to have a child or not are best left to individuals, not the government.

I'm getting tired of shooting holes in all of your bullshit so I'ma just quote the last time I addressed this:

Your thread lends support to the likelihood that most on the social right aren't really interested in ending abortion, but using abortion as a wedge issue for some perceived partisan gain.

The funny thing is that the social right normally considers me a far leftist. The only way I can really explain my social views to you is to tell you to look at your family tree. The first thing you'll notice is that your last name isn't the only one there. There's a reason for that. It's just one branch of an even bigger tree. With unlimited time and information you could trace it to the beginning of life find every single person here somewhere on it, including me. That's because all of us - including you and I - are cousins. It's a distant relation but it still exists and still comes with certain obligations. I guess the most accurate label for it would be something like collectivist humanism. I've always held that worldview, even before I knew what it was, and it's basically the reason I've been pro-life since I found out about abortion at about 13. It's also the reason I've always been against capital punishment, war*, capitalism...

*you'd shit yourself to hear me when I berated the master sergeant for joking about double tapping civilians

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

So, involuntary sterilization of whom?

Here's the last time I mentioned sterilization:

Everyone is anti-abortion, and wishes to see the practice end – that's the easy part; the hard part for those on the right is to acknowledge the fact that a woman has a right to privacy, and cannot be compelled by the state to give birth against her will.

The most obvious method is to prevent conception in the first place. If you do sincerely want to talk about prevention for once then loosening sterilization regulations would be a good start. I know a woman who was outright refused tubal ligation. At 27. She's still pissed about it.

Having CPS remove all children from a mother who has an abortion?

Having CPS do its damn job for once, which is to remove children from dangerous and child-unfriendly individuals and situations.

It is entirely true that "once you have a child, your life is no longer about you."

Which, as I said above, is just meaningless lip service if you're not actually going to implement that concept into your own personal life. As it stands, you saying this looks like the pro-abortion parallel to the "pro-life" person demanding that we cut off Medicare and invade Iraq.

I believe that adolescents or adults who are not willing to go there will do better to have the abortion and save the child a life of suffering.

And this is why. If you create a kid that you're not willing to take care of, then you'll just tell yourself some feel good bullshit about how you're actually heroically saving her from having to live her life so you don't feel how monstrously selfish you're being as you dispose of her. Your viewpoint on this is both entirely representative of the article in the OP and the already stated reason we need to fall back and readjust our strategy for doing what should be your job in protecting your children.

Don't get me wrong; I commend all efforts to give young pregnant women all the options that can be made available, including adoption or keeping the baby if that is practicable.

Sorry, but commendation is also meaningless. Nice words don't feed kids. Fuzzy thoughts don't create shelters. What are you doing to provide those options?

But you are dreaming if you think that the foster system can handle that many children. It is not even sensible. Please grow up!

This is what you're right about. The foster system is notoriously broken, and it will remain broken so long as nobody gives enough of a shit to fix it. How do you think we - you and I - could change this?

 

[Dragonlady]

The whole Birth Control abortion issue has to do with keeping women sexuality under Patriarchal control like the Morally superior one man social agency to help women that is posting on here ...."kicking my ass" LOL

Yeah, those women who got three quarters of a million abortions last year were forced to spread their legs and fuck their brains out.

This is indicative of the level of discourse we get from so-called "right-to-life" crowd. It always comes down to the notion that a woman who seeks an abortion is sexually promiscuous and for whom the pregnancy is simply an inconvenience. The myth that women who get abortions are uncaring single women who don't want the party to end, is just that: a myth.

The women who seek abortions are overwhelmingly parents of one or more children, who simply cannot afford another child. Living without sex may be an option for you, but for poor married women, it is not necessarily an option, and the costs of obtaining a birth control prescription, and the tests mandated by law prior to the issuance of the prescription - all mandated by Republican administrations in various states, is specifically designed to discourage young single women with low incomes from obtaining effective birth control.

The Republican lead war against women's reproductive health in the US, is shameful. It assumes that women have no idea of what is best for them or their families. In order to obtain birth control, they are subjected to unnecessary tests, adding to the cost of obtaining the prescription, which many employers don't want to covered due to religious reasons. I don't understand why my method of birth control is any business of my employer. It is discriminatory for men to be able to obtain viagara without being subjected to the same "level of disclosure" and testing that women go through for birth control. This is, in effect, an attempt to dictate sexual morality to women. Why don't we try dictating to men how they should behave with women.

In order to get an abortion, women must be fully informed by their physicians, be forced to view a sonogram (in itself an invasive test), of the fetus they cannot afford to carry to term, in many cases wait overnight adding the expense of accommodations to the cost of the unnecessary tests and the actual abortion itself. So much for government not interfering in a private medical matter.

It's also not lost on me the number of times Republican law makers have encouraged their daughters, or their mistresses, to have abortions, while at the same time voting in favour of legislation which makes it more difficult and/or expensive for poor women to make the same choice.

Many women are haunted by the choice they feel they have to make, even though the know it was the right choice, in the context of their lives at the time. One friend, who was pregnant and married at 16, gave birth at 17, and promptly found herself pregnant again, had a second child at 18, and by age 19 was a high-school drop out with two children under the age of 3, an abusive, drug-addict husband, and pregnant for the third time. She had an abortion, moved into a shelter, finished high school and got a decent paying job. None of which was easy. She could not have done this with a third baby.

 

[g5000]

Living without sex may be an option for you, but for poor married women, it is not necessarily an option, and the costs of obtaining a birth control prescription, and the tests mandated by law prior to the issuance of the prescription - all mandated by Republican administrations in various states, is specifically designed to discourage young single women with low incomes from obtaining effective birth control.

That's a whole truckload of bullshit. Birth control is given away for free at women's health clinics and at state welfare health clinics.

Birth control is widely and easily available. The problem is that these women are not taking advantage of it. And let's be honest. Most of these women of which you speak are black. If you think it is just too fucking much trouble for these hapless people to make an appointment for free birth control, then you are guilty of the "soft bigotry of low expectations". I have much more confidence in them than that.

What's lacking is any sense of personal responsibility. Many of those women of which you speak have children of several fathers.

Single parenthood is a poverty trap, and liberalism has worsened the problem. The illegitimacy rate among blacks is approaching 80 percent. That's a very uncomfortable fact liberals don't want to face, much less address. Their policies have catastrophically failed the black community. Blacks are in a self-destructive death spiral because of this shit.

It's time to face facts, and start putting personal responsibility front and center again. Stop with this perpetual victim bullshit.

 

[Dragonlady]

I knew this thread was doomed to go to shit the moment I posted it. I just didn't realize how quickly that would come to pass, or exactly how many jackboots we have here. That said, I do want to thank all of 13 of them (TNHarley, Lucy Hamilton, Grandma, GHook93, OldLady, TheOldSchool, Steven_R, Matthew, TyroneSlothrop, mamooth, Dragonlady, hazlnut, Dovahkiin, and even a mod) for proving the point of the OP beyond all expectation. It frankly astounds me that we were able to pack this many fascists and eugenicists into one community.

Pro-life people, this battle is over. You can't win. You can't reason with the mindset consistently shown in both the article and this thread itself. I mean, holy shit. One of the most prolific posters even came out and said "I am someone that fully accepts the reality of future population control." Arguing this is like arguing the affects of communism with a commissar. You can't force someone to love or protect their children. The best we can do is remove the children they didn't murder and prevent these sick fucks from posing any further danger to them. That's it. We need to stop focusing on Planned Parenthood and start focusing on Child Protective Services if we actually give the slightest bit of a damn about the kids we can save. Ideally we'd be pushing for sterilization for abortive parents as well just to ensure that they don't destroy any of their other children's lives.

It will never happen because the US doesn't care about its children. If it did, it wouldn't pay its teachers so poorly in relation to other professions, it would have mandated maternity and family leave, and subsidized day care for low income families. The US has one of the lowest levels of workplace protections for pregnant women and families, in the first world.

If you can't get Americans to care about their communities' children, how can you get them to care about children without parents? Your foster care system is broken. As is public education for the poor. Any service involving poor children is completely under-funded, assuming it exists at all.

The bald truth is that the party of "family values", cuts services to poor kids first, i.e. recent reductions to food stamps.

 

[Dragonlady]

Single parenthood is a poverty trap, and liberalism has worsened the problem. The illegitimacy rate among blacks is approaching 80 percent. That's a very uncomfortable fact liberals don't want to face, much less address. Their policies have catastrophically failed the black community.

It's time to face facts, and start putting personal responsibility front and center again.

The black community has been decimated by the over-policing of the black community, and minimum sentencing. Look at the rates of incarceration for black and Hispanic males, versus other demographics. It's no wonder the black community has a problem keeping families together.

Yeah, conservatives really do need to start facing facts about who gets abortions in the US and why, and stop blaming black women, because while blacks do get a higher percentage of abortions than whites, they also are disproportionately poorer than white. And it still doesn't negate the fact that most women getting abortions are married, white and poor.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

It will never happen because the US doesn't care about its children. If it did, it wouldn't pay its teachers so poorly in relation to other professions, it would have mandated maternity and family leave, and subsidized day care for low income families. The US has one of the lowest levels of workplace protections for pregnant women and families, in the first world.

If you can't get Americans to care about their communities' children, how can you get them to care about children without parents? Your foster care system is broken. As is public education for the poor. Any service involving poor children is completely under-funded, assuming it exists at all.

So let's go Theory of Two on this. We have a problem. There are two ways we can approach it: progress or stasis. The former means attempting to change minds and laws and get the problem under control. The latter means accepting that waaay too many people such as people like yourself are far too amoral and individualist to give a damn about other people's kids. I feel like there are excellent arguments to be made for both approaches. The argument for the latter was even made for me by the article in the OP. What about you?

The bald truth is that the party of "family values", cuts services to poor kids first, i.e. recent reductions to food stamps.

So yeah. Let me blow your mind really quick. I'm not a Republican partially for that exact reason. Most of the people I work with in this are neither Republican nor male. Shocking, right?

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

what happened to the one who carries the sperm?

He had sex and absolved himself of responsibility by making her the one who carries the sperm.

then preaches at women ...

 

[Rustic]

Living without sex may be an option for you, but for poor married women, it is not necessarily an option, and the costs of obtaining a birth control prescription, and the tests mandated by law prior to the issuance of the prescription - all mandated by Republican administrations in various states, is specifically designed to discourage young single women with low incomes from obtaining effective birth control.

That's a whole truckload of bullshit. Birth control is given away for free at women's health clinics and at state welfare health clinics.

Birth control is widely and easily available. The problem is that these women are not taking advantage of it. And let's be honest. Most of these women of which you speak are black. If you think it is just too fucking much trouble for these hapless people to make an appointment for free birth control, then you are guilty of the "soft bigotry of low expectations". I have much more confidence in them than that.

What's lacking is any sense of personal responsibility. Many of those women of which you speak have children of several fathers.

Single parenthood is a poverty trap, and liberalism has worsened the problem. The illegitimacy rate among blacks is approaching 80 percent. That's a very uncomfortable fact liberals don't want to face, much less address. Their policies have catastrophically failed the black community. Blacks are in a self-destructive death spiral because of this shit.

It's time to face facts, and start putting personal responsibility front and center again. Stop with this perpetual victim bullshit.

How about everyone pay for their own shit, it makes life much easier.