Why don't people understand that this argument is already lost?

[C_Clayton_Jones]

With each dead unborn baby, souls are lost as well. Hell is filling up with women who had abortions, and men who paid for them. And abortion doctors get a special place in hell where they're eternally raped in the ass by Satan.

It's a tragedy for everyone involved.

In your subjective, personal opinion – devoid of authority or force of law, thankfully.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Pedro... you have such a defeatist attitude about this issue. There are fights that aren't worth fighting, granted. But there are fights that are worth fighting. They also say "choose your battles wisely." This fight for life is well chosen, and worth fighting.

The moment we concede defeat is the moment they truly win.

I've been involved in the fight against ISIS and the groups it stemmed from for about four years now. Due to the nature of my role in this I'm pretty familiar with them. I've spoken with their recruiters. I've listened to lectures by their scholars. I've read their propaganda and Qur'anic exegesis. I know their ideology, TTPs - everything, on a much more intimate level than I really even care to.

This fight is almost identical in my eyes. I've also been involved in it for several years. I've spoken to them. I've listened to their leaders and read their propaganda. I've gone to great lengths to understand how they think, why they do, how that impacts their arguments, and what kind of skullduggery shit they've mastered for when those arguments fail.

In either case the first thing to understand is that you're not dealing with a group that respects the value of human life. The second thing to understand is that you're not dealing with one that's come to their viewpoint through reason. It's very emotionally driven in both cases. That's not defeatism. That's knowing your enemy. And, unfortunately for us, they've managed to sway a majority to their side.

 

[HappyJoy]

The best way to decrease the number of abortions is to make it easier for a woman to care for their child and to stop demonizing single mothers. That involves creating support systems and programs to assist in the raising of these children, and being kind to the child and mother. Those are, of course, anathema to the people in this country who most want to end abortion..

Actually, I completely disagree. Rather than encourage "single mothers" - why not encourage FAMILY? If you weren't born BEFORE the 60s - you don't understand that families USED to stay together - not run out on them.

Keep demonizing single women, and they'll keep having abortions so you don't demonize them. You can balance tolerating their existence while encouraging families, can't you?

Demonizing women? Who the hell is doing that? Jesus, you guys are out of your minds. FAMILY. FAMILY. FAMILY. Again - if single women are too stupid to use simple birth control methods and utilize abortion as "birth control" - then they should probably just abstain.

Now we'll sit back and hear about the hundreds of millions of rapes and incest that go on every day. I know how you folks work.

Incest and rape are (together) around 1% of abortions.

Odd that while you're "not" demonizing women it's funny how you don't claim men are "stupid" for not using contraception, only the women.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I hope I'm not shocking anyone but I speak truth.

If you are a woman who gets an abortion, you will go to hell.

If you are a man who pays for an abortion, you will go to hell.

If you are an abortion doctor, you will go to hell.

If any pastor/minister/rabbi tells you that you will not go to hell for having an abortion or paying for an abortion or performing an abortion, that pastor/minister/rabbi will also go to hell.

My interest in the situation is not only about the loss of the baby's life, but about the loss of souls to Satan, who hates mankind and is constantly trying to tempt us to make decisions that will cause us to go to hell.

Right now there are millions of Americans already in hell because of their involvement with an abortion.

And the Supreme Court Justices who voted for Roe v. Wade are also in hell and you will meet them when you get to hell, and then you can poke them with pitchforks for their role in getting you into hell.

But with God, there's always an escape clause, which is repentance, followed by penance.

If you are an abortion doctor who repents, your penance is that you must spend the rest of your life telling people why they should not have an abortion.

If you are a woman who had an abortion or a man who paid for an abortion, your penance is that you must join the pro-life movement and donate money and time to the cause of stopping all these abortions that are sending people to hell.

So there, I've warned you and my conscience is clear. You will not find the truth so plainly spelled out as I've done so today.

I wish you well, and hope you can use the advice I've given you.

No, you're not “speaking the truth” – you're speaking only for yourself, posting subjective opinion and nonsense predicated on religious myths and fantasies.

And your religious zealotry and arrogance is exactly why the Framers codified the right to privacy in the Constitution, safeguarding the rights and protected liberties of all Americans from that religious zealotry and arrogance.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Nonsense – everyone is pro-life; again, you're seeking to divide people, not bring them together to find a viable solution.

What I told TemplarKormac. I would've believed that if I had less experience dealing with these people.

Your thread lends support to the likelihood that most on the social right aren't really interested in ending abortion, but using abortion as a wedge issue for some perceived partisan gain.

The funny thing is that the social right normally considers me a far leftist. The only way I can really explain my social views to you is to tell you to look at your family tree. The first thing you'll notice is that your last name isn't the only one there. There's a reason for that. It's just one branch of an even bigger tree. With unlimited time and information you could trace it to the beginning of life find every single person here somewhere on it, including me. That's because all of us - including you and I - are cousins. It's a distant relation but it still exists and still comes with certain obligations. I guess the most accurate label for it would be something like collectivist humanism. I've always held that worldview, even before I knew what it was, and it's basically the reason I've been pro-life since I found out about abortion at about 13. It's also the reason I've always been against capital punishment, war*, capitalism...

*you'd shit yourself to hear me when I berated the master sergeant for joking about double tapping civilians

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

20 Tips for Your First Abortion

Yeah. The argument is now that women should just say fuck it and go for it it because the money raising their kids would have costed is better spent on Beyonce tickets. We're not going to sway a public that thinks like that. The best we can do is go the way our abolitionist forefathers did and protect whom we can. We can't save the unborn but we can get the born the hell away from these "people," whether that means going through foster care or child protective services. No child deserves to be raised by parents who are incapable of loving them.

No child deserves to be raised in an orphanage, either. That's why I am pro-choice.

I'm anti-abortion, with the exception for the life of the Mother and in cases of rape and incest. I don't think abortion should be used as means of contraception.

Everyone is anti-abortion, and wishes to see the practice end – that's the easy part; the hard part for those on the right is to acknowledge the fact that a woman has a right to privacy, and cannot be compelled by the state to give birth against her will.

The right to privacy likewise safeguards your protected liberty to decide the issue for yourself, consistent with your own good faith and good conscience, free from unwarranted interference by the state.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Everyone is anti-abortion, and wishes to see the practice end – that's the easy part; the hard part for those on the right is to acknowledge the fact that a woman has a right to privacy, and cannot be compelled by the state to give birth against her will.

The most obvious method is to prevent conception in the first place. If you do sincerely want to talk about prevention for once then loosening sterilization regulations would be a good start. I know a woman who was outright refused tubal ligation. At 27. She's still pissed about it.

 

[Blackrook]

With each dead unborn baby, souls are lost as well. Hell is filling up with women who had abortions, and men who paid for them. And abortion doctors get a special place in hell where they're eternally raped in the ass by Satan.

It's a tragedy for everyone involved.

In your subjective, personal opinion – devoid of authority or force of law, thankfully.

Everyone is anti-abortion, and wishes to see the practice end – that's the easy part; the hard part for those on the right is to acknowledge the fact that a woman has a right to privacy, and cannot be compelled by the state to give birth against her will.

The most obvious method is to prevent conception in the first place. If you do sincerely want to talk about prevention for once then loosening sterilization regulations would be a good start. I know a woman who was outright refused tubal ligation. At 27. She's still pissed about it.

That makes sense. She can get pissed off at the doctor for not doing the operation, but if she got the operation, she might be pissed that she can't have babies any more and sue the doctor.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

No child deserves to be raised in an orphanage, either. That's why I am pro-choice.

Would you rather a child be killed than raised in an orphanage?

And why do you think you have the right to decide that the babies life is not worth living? Shouldnt that be the childs choice, at least?

No. Why does everyone think I want children to be murdered? WTF emotional much?
I don't get to decide. I am a male; I don't give birth.

So women have the right to kill their children, exclusively?

No one has a 'right' to kill children – the 'question' is idiocy.

As a fact of law, of course, an embryo/fetus is not a 'child,' as a fact of law an embryo/fetus is not entitled to Constitutional protections, and as a fact of law the woman's protected liberty is paramount – immune from attack by the state.

The hypocrisy common to most on the right is remarkable – they whine about 'big government' and how government is 'incompetent' yet when it comes to privacy rights suddenly they can't get enough of big government where government knows better than a woman what's best for her.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

20 Tips for Your First Abortion

From the link:

10. If you say nothing, you will see nothing during the ultrasound. The nurses are humans, not monsters, just like you.

Wow.

A lot of the "tips" are like that. Training women how to avoid facing the fact they are taking a human life.

What troubling is that there are those who seek to remain ignorant of the fact that individuals are best suited to decide when life begins, not government.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I would be a lot more impressed with the "fetus love" if it actually continued on once that fetus developed and came out of the mother....unfortunately once that child is born the very same folks that called for the fetus to be born now call the "ex fetus" a parasite a burden on the "good folks" and they start the steady hating and hating.. that is your Cheap ass morality right there........

And there's the Liberal dependency mentality and blackmail tactics revealed in all their ugliness.

"Pay for my baby, or I'll kill it."

And here's the social right's dependency on lies, demagoguery, and ignorance – that a fetus/embryo is a 'baby,' or abortion is 'murder.'

Conservatives are in no position of accusing others of being 'sick.'

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

20 Tips for Your First Abortion

From the link:

10. If you say nothing, you will see nothing during the ultrasound. The nurses are humans, not monsters, just like you.

Wow.

A lot of the "tips" are like that. Training women how to avoid facing the fact they are taking a human life.

What troubling is that there are those who seek to remain ignorant of the fact that individuals are best suited to decide when life begins, not government.

Questions of scientific fact aren't really up for popular debate. You can attempt to decide for yourself whether germ theory is true, but you're still going to get sick if you eat infested bread. Equally you can attempt to decide for yourself when life begins but you're still going to kill something living if you dismember an unborn baby.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Hey dumb fuck. Pro-lifers don't want abortions forced on anyone.

Your attempt to equate us to Nazis fails right out of the gate, you fucking asshole.

You want women to be "incubators" with no choices ..even if raped...

Most on the right want to compel conformity through force of law, the consequence of their fear of individual liberty, and their lack of faith in the ability of private citizens to make important decisions absent unwarranted government intervention.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Hey dumb fuck. Pro-lifers don't want abortions forced on anyone.

Your attempt to equate us to Nazis fails right out of the gate, you fucking asshole.

You want women to be "incubators" with no choices ..even if raped...

Most on the right want to compel conformity through force of law, the consequence of their fear of individual liberty, and their lack of faith in the ability of private citizens to make important decisions absent unwarranted government intervention.

Conformity through force of law is how society functions. It literally would not exist if the community didn't enforce standards of behavior on its members by the threat of removing their liberty. Just saying. I'd also make the argument that even the very fact of us having a discussion about this is proof that not everyone deserves faith in their ability to make important decisions for themselves.

 

[TemplarKormac]

That's not defeatism. That's knowing your enemy. And, unfortunately for us, they've managed to sway a majority to their side.

Forgive me for being hopelessly naïve but...

It is better to fight a losing battle than to give up. If we don't fight for what we believe in, what is right and true, then our beliefs are worthless. I will not so easily abandon mine. And unlike those who are oppressed by ISIS, we won't be. The majority of us stand on the side of goodness, we aren't waging a brutal war on those who don't believe the same way we do. We are fighting an enemy who wages war on life. We are the vanguard of life.

The fight is never over.

I've been involved in the fight against ISIS and the groups it stemmed from for about four years now. Due to the nature of my role in this I'm pretty familiar with them. I've spoken with their recruiters. I've listened to lectures by their scholars. I've read their propaganda and Qur'anic exegesis. I know their ideology, TTPs - everything, on a much more intimate level than I really even care to.

First of all, thank you for what you're doing. Not many people are as brave enough to stare demons straight in the eyes as you do.

In your case, however, I believe, you've been given the wrong tools and the least bit of support by your government to fight a ruthless enemy. But here on the home front, rest assured that the best tool you have is your voice. Being pro life is fighting for the potential for that unborn child to do good for this world, the potential to one day be of benefit to all mankind. This is not something that we, nor I, can give up. Life is a precious resource, it must be fought for, saved and preserved. If we give up now, such a murderous ideology will consume us all.

An old Japanese Proverb:

Fall seven times, stand up eight.

In either case the first thing to understand is that you're not dealing with a group that respects the value of human life. The second thing to understand is that you're not dealing with one that's come to their viewpoint through reason.

Oh, I understand a little bit. I don't let that intimidate me. Nor will I ever. No offense.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The funny thing is that the social right normally considers me a far leftist.

I don't. You make good points. Shame on those who say otherwise. Ad hominem is an argument for the weak.

 

[SwimExpert]

20 Tips for Your First Abortion

Yeah. The argument is now that women should just say fuck it and go for it it because the money raising their kids would have costed is better spent on Beyonce tickets. We're not going to sway a public that thinks like that. The best we can do is go the way our abolitionist forefathers did and protect whom we can. We can't save the unborn but we can get the born the hell away from these "people," whether that means going through foster care or child protective services. No child deserves to be raised by parents who are incapable of loving them.

Right about now I wish Pictures for Sad Children was still around.

excuse me, i'd like one abortion please
all right
i don't think i'm pregnant is that a problem?
well--
i still want one. you know, just in case
we don't really--
look just get in there, and scrape around. scrape scrape scrape

 

[OldLady]

The whole Birth Control abortion issue has to do with keeping women sexuality under Patriarchal control like the Morally superior one man social agency to help women that is posting on here ...."kicking my ass" LOL

Yeah, those women who got three quarters of a million abortions last year were forced to spread their legs and fuck their brains out.

Watch out! You are getting very close to demonizing only women for irresponsible sex....what happened to the one who carries the sperm? We never hear about what HE should have done, do we? There's never any judgment against the young men who are injudiciously spewing their sperm. It's always just about those slutty women spreadin' 'em. Because they get caught holding the bag, women have no opportunity to disappear into the night without giving two shits what they've done.

 

[Iceweasel]

The whole Birth Control abortion issue has to do with keeping women sexuality under Patriarchal control like the Morally superior one man social agency to help women that is posting on here ...."kicking my ass" LOL

Yeah, those women who got three quarters of a million abortions last year were forced to spread their legs and fuck their brains out.

Watch out! You are getting very close to demonizing only women for irresponsible sex....what happened to the one who carries the sperm? We never hear about what HE should have done, do we? There's never any judgment against the young men who are injudiciously spewing their sperm. It's always just about those slutty women spreadin' 'em. Because they get caught holding the bag, women have no opportunity to disappear into the night without giving two shits what they've done.

Men don't get pregnant so they are more casual about sex. Humans have known this for some time. That said, a guy is held accountable with a dna test, assuming the gal knows his real name and location. Nature and gender play a role in wise decision making.

 

[SwimExpert]

what happened to the one who carries the sperm?

He had sex and absolved himself of responsibility by making her the one who carries the sperm.