Why I Am Not A Christian

[Cecilie1200]

Why should God forgive someone for something they're not ashamed of and haven't asked for forgiveness for? Why should He reward them for thumbing their noses at Him their entire lives and deliberately doing the exact opposite of what He told them was required? And lastly, don't you find it laughable on the face of it that anyone COULD "earn their way into Heaven" by being good enough to impress God Almighty?

One doesn't go to Heaven because one is a good person and has "earned" it by their good works. The Bible is quite clear on that. Nor does one go to Hell for being a bad person. The Bible is also very clear that NONE of us is good enough, and all of us have fallen short. One goes to Heaven because one has asked forgiveness and accepted God's grace, and one goes to Hell because one has NOT asked forgiveness and rejected that grace.

And I would like to take this moment to point out that I have chosen to answer these questions because I feel that you have asked politely and sincerely, as Mad did not.

Thank you for answering my questions Cecilie. So if your up to a dialog ive got some more.

Take the Amazon natives for example, they know nothing of a christian god. They believe in different gods. Not because they are being obstinate but just because no one has been there converting them. What happens to them? Do the laws of, ignorance of the law is no excuse apply?

That's humanity's concept, not God's.

In all honesty, I don't think anyone knows for sure what God does about those who've never been told about Him. It's been a doctrinal question among Christians for a long time. All we know for sure is that we were told, on more than one occasion, that we had a responsibility to go and tell everyone about Him. And so we do. That's why so many churches have missionaries in places like the Amazon. Perhaps He didn't tell us the answer precisely because He didn't want us to lay back and say, "Oh, okay, those people are covered, so I don't have to go out of my way for them."

I also have a very hard problem with be as bad as you want, repent your sins and believe in god and all is forgiven.

how bad is bad?

rapists
child molesters
wife beaters

It's not quite like that. I mean, I don't believe God lets you get away with thinking, "Okay, I'll do whatever I please and live it up, and then when I'm done, I'll repent and it'll all be okay." He's God, and He can see the true intent of your heart, and sincerity of repentance is key. That is, you don't get forgiven if you're not genuinely sorry for what you did. It's not as though you can lie to God.

As for "how bad is bad", in the eyes of God, there aren't "degrees of bad". That's also a human perception. To God, ALL sin is equally bad. And all sin is equally forgivable by Him if you sincerely ask it.

how about Bernie Madoff? He didn't hurt anyone, he just stole money.

How about him? He committed a sin. Sin is sin, to God.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why should God forgive someone for something they're not ashamed of and haven't asked for forgiveness for? Why should He reward them for thumbing their noses at Him their entire lives and deliberately doing the exact opposite of what He told them was required? And lastly, don't you find it laughable on the face of it that anyone COULD "earn their way into Heaven" by being good enough to impress God Almighty?

One doesn't go to Heaven because one is a good person and has "earned" it by their good works. The Bible is quite clear on that. Nor does one go to Hell for being a bad person. The Bible is also very clear that NONE of us is good enough, and all of us have fallen short. One goes to Heaven because one has asked forgiveness and accepted God's grace, and one goes to Hell because one has NOT asked forgiveness and rejected that grace.

And I would like to take this moment to point out that I have chosen to answer these questions because I feel that you have asked politely and sincerely, as Mad did not.

Thank you for answering my questions Cecilie. So if your up to a dialog ive got some more.

Take the Amazon natives for example, they know nothing of a christian god. They believe in different gods. Not because they are being obstinate but just because no one has been there converting them. What happens to them? Do the laws of, ignorance of the law is no excuse apply?

I also have a very hard problem with be as bad as you want, repent your sins and believe in god and all is forgiven.

how bad is bad?

rapists
child molesters
wife beaters


how about Bernie Madoff? He didn't hurt anyone, he just stole money.

The thing is we do not actually get away unscathed by our sin, we will reap the consequences and repercussions of them many times over, here on earth. Even if we repent

Also true.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm not a Christian because Buddhist meditation and teachings work for me.

Sky Dancer, may I ask, were you raised as a Buddist? If not, how did you happen to be fortunate enough to find a teacher?

I was raised a Catholic. I left the church after my father's suicide in 1981. I was looking for something that would help me to help him. Catholics taught that suicide was a mortal sin and that whoever committed that sin was eternally damned. That didn't satisfy me or feel true to me so I moved on.

I spent a lot of time in a theosophical library studying all kinds of religions but when I went to my first Buddhist teaching it sounded like truth to me. I went to my first ten day silent retreat in 1982 and only took Buddhist vows for the ten days of the retreat. My mind and heart were profoundly affected by this emersion into meditation so I started to study/read Buddhism and attend other retreats of five, ten day and finally two months duration.

I didn't start to study with a Vajrayana Tibetan Buddhist master until 1987. I didn't consider that I had a real teacher until 1989.

It's kind of a long story about how I now study under my current teacher.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The thing is we do not actually get away unscathed by our sin, we will reap the consequences and repercussions of them many times over, here on earth. Even if we repent

I dont see to anyone reaping any consequences or repercussions ,pixiestix, do you?

Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Christianity isn't alone in teaching that committing bad acts - or even just harboring bad feelings toward others - damages your soul (or whatever equivalent thereof the philosophy allows for).

 

[Cecilie1200]

You're an idiot. I didn't say we should refer to God as "her" either. Since God doesn't have tits or a vagina it would be equally stoopid to refer to God as "her."

Show where I claimed Cecille said works aren't necessary. If works are necessary that means forgiveness must be earned on some level.....which negates her claim.

Curvelight wrote: "You really enjoy re-writing the bible for your personal desires. Your claim that works has no factor is incorrect".

Checkmate bitch.

Checkmate? Rotfl! What a stoopid bitch. It's clear Cecille was saying works has no factor by pointing to the failed "faith alone" type bullshit and that nobody can earn anything by works. Have you figured out yet that God doesn't have a penis or vagina?

How do you know what equipment God does or doesn't have? Have you seen God? Given an all-over inspection?

 

[Sky Dancer]

It doesn't matter to me if someone says he or she is a Christian. If he or she has a good heart then that impresses me. Good heart is accompanied by kind words and acts of compassion. If the person is a Christian, I look to see if it has made them Christ-like, loving, gentle and kind. Does the person follow the teachings of Jesus in their thoughts, words and deeds. Is his or her heart/mind open or closed?

 

[Madeline]

CurveLight knows God does not have a penis because he knows that God is not alive. God is not Human. God was not born and he will not die. We attribute human qualities like gender to God because we need to, not because they are accurate. God is just as feminine as he is masculine, and really, he is neither.

Man is limited in his imagination. We lack the capacity to envision God as he is. We anthropmorphize the concept of God, giving him human traits he does not have so we can commence to feeling closer to him...but these are all illusions.

An excerpt from the poem "Wintering", by Laurel K. Dodge:

what of the thaw?. I wouldn’t anthropmorphize
night--why not?--stars aren’t lidless eyes--
but they are! can’t you feel them watching?--
the moon’s just light, not a wound
in the sky that keeps pulling
out its stitches--no, that’s me,
that thread is mine. And the owl’s constant
hoot is not a lamentative question--
you’re wrong--I’ve listened
to it mourn my lonely hours.
We don’t have to give night false
life; we know how hopeless the dark is--
and yet it’s the bright light of day
that’s always stripped me faithless.

Barring a state of chronic emergency, every Adult will realize that someday he will die and that even while he is alive, he is alone. No one else can crawl inside our skin and "be with us". Some people cannot bear the pain this causes them, and run away from the Fear -- into religions that promise them "everything", or into work, or drugs, or to enslave themselves in a thousand other ways.

All sentient adults are capable of tolerating the Fear. Anyone who is an adult can allow themselves to experience aloneness and ponder the Big Questions. I don't think that every christian uses religion as an escape, but far too many do. A few seem to me to have seriously quested and pondered and to be genuinely at home in their faith, as I am in mine. But for many, what Marx said is true: "Religion is the opiate of the masses." And that's when religion is not merely being used by hucksters to try to sell us toothpaste or a politician. Or whip up hatred.

Like any other Life Choice all of us must make, this willingness to face the imponderable and tolerate the Fear of not knowing, until whatever we may find that fills the void can be developed, is unavoidable. The only alternative to pondering is Constant Anxiety. Anyone who reacts to the Big Questions by accepting Constant Anxiety will never know any Real Peace, because an answer borrowed from someone else and simply shoved in place without thought is just a surrender to (and subscription to) Constant Anxiety.

I think this Life Choice remains open to each of us throughout our lives, but I don't think many folks over 29 or so ever re-visit their decision. Those who ponder may do so all their lives; but those who choose Constant Anxiety are likely to remain cowards until they die.

To know Peace whilst alive, every adult human must face and tolerate Fear. We each have to look inside ourselves and see a truly horrifying sight -- we are Alone. From this struggle can come Faith, but IMO, no one can get Faith by any other means. And for some people, the Faith they have is that God does not exist. Frankly, I think it takes greater courage to live with that reply than any other. I am not an atheist, but I can admire the guts and honesty of those who are.

BTW, I don't generally use "he or she" when I write, and since English has no personal pronoun that is gender neutral, please read the above as applying equally to men and women.

 

[Madeline]

I'm not a Christian because Buddhist meditation and teachings work for me.

Sky Dancer, may I ask, were you raised as a Buddist? If not, how did you happen to be fortunate enough to find a teacher?

I was raised a Catholic. I left the church after my father's suicide in 1981. I was looking for something that would help me to help him. Catholics taught that suicide was a mortal sin and that whoever committed that sin was eternally damned. That didn't satisfy me or feel true to me so I moved on.

I spent a lot of time in a theosophical library studying all kinds of religions but when I went to my first Buddhist teaching it sounded like truth to me. I went to my first ten day silent retreat in 1982 and only took Buddhist vows for the ten days of the retreat. My mind and heart were profoundly affected by this emersion into meditation so I started to study/read Buddhism and attend other retreats of five, ten day and finally two months duration.

I didn't start to study with a Vajrayana Tibetan Buddhist master until 1987. I didn't consider that I had a real teacher until 1989.

It's kind of a long story about how I now study under my current teacher.

I don't see how anyone can fail to honor the pilgrimage that Sky Dancer has been on, or have the nerve to tell this poster that his or her conclusions so far are wrong.

I also agree, the RCC is 100% wrong about suicide; no one in that much pain will face condemnation from God if an After-Life exists. God is unknowable, but we do know he is not Unjust.

 

[Madeline]

Originally Posted by syrenn:

how about Bernie Madoff? He didn't hurt anyone, he just stole money.

CurveLight wrote:

How about him? He committed a sin. Sin is sin, to God.

syrenn, it is understandable that you'd see Bernie Madoff as "not having hurt anyone". He didn't beat anyone. But when he stole the entire finances of a charity (which he did; virtually all American Jewish charities have been stripped of their endowments) he certainly harmed those who were the objects of those charities and now cannot be helped.

He stole the retirement funds of thousands of people. These are folks who planned and saved and hoped that eventually they could be artists or singers or grandparents, without the time constraints of work. He stole their dreams.

So much more is evil than actually assaulting or killing someone with your bare hands. If we are going to rank evil acts on a hierarchy, I'd say a man like Bernie Madoff, who has hastened the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, is a heavy offender. It is evil to prey on the trust or ignorance of those who look up to you to deprive them of their's heart desire.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Do you not recognize the spiritual struggle between good and evil? I could not begin to tell you how many times in a day I have to choose between them, the Holy Spirit helps me daily.....

See I just use this thing called "conscience", which is based off this gnarly idea of ethics. But hey if talking towards the ceiling and believing an invisible "it" helps you figure out the difference between good and evil because you can't do it yourself then good for you!

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

If God is omnipotent, and the sole creator, then evil comes from him (as does everything), and thus he is both good and evil.

Why would an omnipotent God need to fight anyone, let alone a devil, save for amusement?


The Jewish Scholar Maimonides celebrated the execution of Jesus, declaring Jesus to be the great deceiver mentioned in Daniel's apocalypse. Given how Christians have tormented Jews over the past 2000 years, I cannot blame him.


The Holy Spirit allows old men to claim divine right without evidence.


It is also considered the reason why God gave us the Koran...to put down the heresy of pseudo-polytheism once and for all.


It makes sense, if you understand that for 2000 years, the religion was developed by emperors, kings, and their supporters.


Why do you think 2 billion people are Christian? It is not because their ancestors spontaneously saw the light and abandoned their native beliefs...

For instance, Portugal would only sell firearms to Japanese Daimyo (lords) who converted to Christianity. Eight-six such Daimyos converted, just to purchase firearms. The hated Oda Nobunaga used these guns to unite feudal Japan, and protected the missionaries until his assassination.


Prayer is about as effective as "the power of positive thinking."


For millions of people across history, violence in the name of God was clearly right...and a guaranteed ticket to heaven. In the context of religion, even suicide bombing is perfectly rational.


From a practical perspective, the red jump suit is social conditioning. Tis no different from believing in karma.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

A conscience is a product of social conditioning, hence the role for religion.

If we were both raised in 13th-century Mongolia, for instance, our conscience would be telling us to loot and pillage for the benefit of our tribe.

---

I suggest you read [ame=http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807]Amazon.com: God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything (9780446579803):…[/ame] for an alternative perspective.

There is no fanatic so zealous in evangelizing as an atheist with an axe to grind. God forbid they ever just shrug and say, "To each his own" about the belief choices of others.

Oh I see that you refuted his well organized and supported points with stereotyping and "it's just a difference of opinion". Good job! Perhaps others in this thread can follow your lead and similarly hand waive away valid arguments with statements like "O U JUST THINK UR SO SMART DONT U?!"

More often than not when people make self proclamations of being educated or intelligent the opposite often bears out as closer to being accurate.

Oh good, looks like the teachings are taking root.

I find it mildly amusing that you presume to tell an all powerful being what is right and what is wrong rather than to learn directly from Him. You have an incorrect understanding of God and yet somehow it's His fault.

I've always found it mildly amusing myself when people have the hubris to try to hold God to a HUMAN understanding of morality.

I've always found it mildly amusing myself when people claim we can't have any understanding of deified morality and yet at the same time believe it's all just listed out in a book. I also found it largely amusing when religions claim morality, law, and ethics can somehow change over time, despite an omnipotent being demanding them. Cuz ya know slavery isn't so bad cuz the bible says it's ok.

As for the whole gender issue, I think it's clear that It had to have a penis to rape Mary. Unless It is a hermaphrodite. Which explains the whole "homosexuality is bad" thing as just a big self-hating insecurity. Or maybe I have it wrong altogether. Maybe It just had a turkey baster...

 

[mudwhistle]

Do you not recognize the spiritual struggle between good and evil? I could not begin to tell you how many times in a day I have to choose between them, the Holy Spirit helps me daily.....

See I just use this thing called "conscience", which is based off this gnarly idea of ethics. But hey if talking towards the ceiling and believing an invisible "it" helps you figure out the difference between good and evil because you can't do it yourself then good for you!

There is no fanatic so zealous in evangelizing as an atheist with an axe to grind. God forbid they ever just shrug and say, "To each his own" about the belief choices of others.

Oh I see that you refuted his well organized and supported points with stereotyping and "it's just a difference of opinion". Good job! Perhaps others in this thread can follow your lead and similarly hand waive away valid arguments with statements like "O U JUST THINK UR SO SMART DONT U?!"


Oh good, looks like the teachings are taking root.

I find it mildly amusing that you presume to tell an all powerful being what is right and what is wrong rather than to learn directly from Him. You have an incorrect understanding of God and yet somehow it's His fault.

I've always found it mildly amusing myself when people have the hubris to try to hold God to a HUMAN understanding of morality.

I've always found it mildly amusing myself when people claim we can't have any understanding of deified morality and yet at the same time believe it's all just listed out in a book. I also found it largely amusing when religions claim morality, law, and ethics can somehow change over time, despite an omnipotent being demanding them. Cuz ya know slavery isn't so bad cuz the bible says it's ok.

As for the whole gender issue, I think it's clear that It had to have a penis to rape Mary. Unless It is a hermaphrodite. Which explains the whole "homosexuality is bad" thing as just a big self-hating insecurity. Or maybe I have it wrong altogether. Maybe It just had a turkey baster...

Looks like your understanding of Christianity is totally screwed.

You keep mixing up the Old Testament with the new.

Christianity is based on Jesus Christ....not on the writings of Moses, Abraham, and the other patriarchs listed in the Old Testament.

 

[CurveLight]

She didn't say that works weren't necessary.

And I suppose we're supposed to call God "her" now to make you happy.

That assumes that "he" has a pussy....so we're pretty much running out of options here.

You're an idiot. I didn't say we should refer to God as "her" either. Since God doesn't have tits or a vagina it would be equally stoopid to refer to God as "her."

Show where I claimed Cecille said works aren't necessary. If works are necessary that means forgiveness must be earned on some level.....which negates her claim.

No, it doesn't. If you come to me and say, "Cecilie, I'm really sorry for being such a dumbass all this time. Please forgive me," I'll forgive you right then. I don't require you to first demonstrate to me through works that you're no longer a dumbass. All I require is that you repent of your dumbass-ness in the past. HOWEVER, after I have forgiven you for being a dumbass, I would THEN reasonably expect you to demonstrate your sincerity through works by attempting not to be such a dumbass in the future. Otherwise, I might begin to suspect that your apology and request for forgiveness was less than sincere.

On the other hand, if you died of a heart attack right after asking me for forgiveness, and never had a chance to demonstrate that you were no longer a dumbass, you would still have been forgiven by me for having been a dumbass in the past.

Hope that clears things up for you a bit.

So your forgiveness is conditional upon your evaluation of my behavior. No. You didn't clear anything up cause I already knew you were arrogant enough to believe I would ask your forgiveness. You can fuck off you self-righteous life leech.

 

[tommywho70x]

You're an idiot. I didn't say we should refer to God as "her" either. Since God doesn't have tits or a vagina it would be equally stoopid to refer to God as "her."

Show where I claimed Cecille said works aren't necessary. If works are necessary that means forgiveness must be earned on some level.....which negates her claim.

No, it doesn't. If you come to me and say, "Cecilie, I'm really sorry for being such a dumbass all this time. Please forgive me," I'll forgive you right then. I don't require you to first demonstrate to me through works that you're no longer a dumbass. All I require is that you repent of your dumbass-ness in the past. HOWEVER, after I have forgiven you for being a dumbass, I would THEN reasonably expect you to demonstrate your sincerity through works by attempting not to be such a dumbass in the future. Otherwise, I might begin to suspect that your apology and request for forgiveness was less than sincere.

On the other hand, if you died of a heart attack right after asking me for forgiveness, and never had a chance to demonstrate that you were no longer a dumbass, you would still have been forgiven by me for having been a dumbass in the past.

Hope that clears things up for you a bit.

So your forgiveness is conditional upon your evaluation of my behavior. No. You didn't clear anything up cause I already knew you were arrogant enough to believe I would ask your forgiveness. You can fuck off you self-righteous life leech.

this sort of statement and others like it in this thread are disheartening to say the least in contrast with the beautiful heartsong madeline has been singing here.

i will not lower myself to share what my inner self is trying to get me to type about all of you who behave this way while people are being gunned down all over the world, the earth is crying and spewing tears that are killing her creatures, and our societies are putrifying in their own decadence.

 

[CurveLight]

Checkmate bitch.

Checkmate? Rotfl! What a stoopid bitch. It's clear Cecille was saying works has no factor by pointing to the failed "faith alone" type bullshit and that nobody can earn anything by works. Have you figured out yet that God doesn't have a penis or vagina?

How the fuck would you know???



By the way....now you're contradicting yourself on the whole works thing. You said that Cecille was saying that works weren't a factor...then you asked me to point out when you accused her of that....then you turn back around and make the same stupidly dishonest claim once again. You spend more time chasing your tail then a Cocker Spaniel.

I always felt you were a little schizoid.

How would I know God doesn't have a penis or vagina? Common fucking sense you reetawrd.

As for the works thing.....a factor can be necessary or an unnecessary condition. Do you understand the diff between the two?

 

[CurveLight]

No, it doesn't. If you come to me and say, "Cecilie, I'm really sorry for being such a dumbass all this time. Please forgive me," I'll forgive you right then. I don't require you to first demonstrate to me through works that you're no longer a dumbass. All I require is that you repent of your dumbass-ness in the past. HOWEVER, after I have forgiven you for being a dumbass, I would THEN reasonably expect you to demonstrate your sincerity through works by attempting not to be such a dumbass in the future. Otherwise, I might begin to suspect that your apology and request for forgiveness was less than sincere.

On the other hand, if you died of a heart attack right after asking me for forgiveness, and never had a chance to demonstrate that you were no longer a dumbass, you would still have been forgiven by me for having been a dumbass in the past.

Hope that clears things up for you a bit.

So your forgiveness is conditional upon your evaluation of my behavior. No. You didn't clear anything up cause I already knew you were arrogant enough to believe I would ask your forgiveness. You can fuck off you self-righteous life leech.

this sort of statement and others like it in this thread are disheartening to say the least in contrast with the beautiful heartsong madeline has been singing here.

i will not lower myself to share what my inner self is trying to get me to type about all of you who behave this way while people are being gunned down all over the world, the earth is crying and spewing tears that are killing her creatures, and our societies are putrifying in their own decadence.

What is disheartening?

 

[logical4u]

I was tired when I wrote the Op and could have done a better job, I suppose. I didn't write it to "prosletise atheism" and I don't consider myself an atheist. I have a firm belief in the Divine, but none whatsoever in an After-Life. I'm not sure what the name of this belief system would be, but t'aint atheism.

I don't think forgiveness is always best. Not if that means we forget. The Catholic Clergy of the 1950's and 1960's that I knew, observed, lived with and now judge were vicious child abusers, both physically and sexually (though thank God I escaped that horror show). I am fairly convinced you cannot emotionally abuse a child who sees you as a perpetual stranger they wish would go away, but if you can the drumbeat of my childhood was "sex is bad and women are the source of all evil". In order to feel a sense of dignity, I think it was necessary to reject that belief. And it wasn't hard to do. I think one reason my religious training never "took" is that it was far too much at odds with what I had learned from my folks, which seemed dead-on. People have value, regardless of their station in life. Education and art matter but money does not, after you have paid the bills. Forcing your neighbor to live in poverty is wrong. Lying and bullying people is wrong. Etc.

Some Christians I can kinda sorta understand. Avatar makes a certain amount of sense to me -- someone on a spiritual quest. Cecille seems angry that not everyone shares her beliefs, and while that is a familiar syndrome to me, it isn't especially easy to understand. Remember the part about "faith is a gift"? Why tag people who are not as "blessed" as you feel you have been? Where does the anger come from, if every cell in your being "believes" -- hook, line and sinker?

I am most amazed by fundamentalists. How is it possible to question evolution or believe the Bible is an accurate history of mankind? If you truly think God created the Earth in seven days, how do you account for dinosaurs? Neanderthal Man? I can't get over the fact that some people value a sort of anti-rationality, anti-science, anti-education, anti-progress, etc. Mysticism does not confuzzle me; altered states of consciousness appeal to a lot of people. But this rejection of knowledge of the natural world in favor of a fairy tale you surely must know is a lie? What is the pay off for that?

But like anyone else, my biggest question for Christians is how have you managed to miss the central message? "Love thy neighbor as thyself", "Judge not, lest ye be judged", "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone"? Do you just disregard these messages when they interfere with your impulse to be hateful or aggressive or acquire great wealth by evil means?

If we are supposed to be ethical beings, and I think we are, regardless of our faith, then doesn't there come a point when you look at your Pope, preacher or reverend and say "No, that's wrong. I won't do it." Ever? How can the drive to behave ethically coexist with total allegiance to anyone else's precepts?

Your parents taught you to love reading. Try reading the Book of Enoch if you want to understand 'afterlife'... it demonstrates the pain of the fallen angels after discovering part of the punishment for their crime (of turning against the Lord). Try reading the book of Jubilees for the 'answer' for dinosaurs (and other 'mythical' creatures). It makes a very scary statement about just what the fallen angels 'bred'.
As for Christians.... each is an individual. Judge them as such if you will. Because someone claims to be something, does not make it so. If you meet a wealthy (true) Christian, you will find they have been blessed, not keeping their neighbor down; they are among the most generous and kind people on the face of the earth.
Read Jerimiah to discover in the 'New Covenant', G*d will be written onto men's hearts (sense of right and wrong) and there will be no need for religious instruction.
Read the New Testament for what Yeshua says about the 'afterlife'. He is the Truth and the Light. He had no deceit in Him.
Your path is your own. You have made statements/observations. It will be up to you to decide how you proceed.

 

[tommywho70x]

So your forgiveness is conditional upon your evaluation of my behavior. No. You didn't clear anything up cause I already knew you were arrogant enough to believe I would ask your forgiveness. You can fuck off you self-righteous life leech.

this sort of statement and others like it in this thread are disheartening to say the least in contrast with the beautiful heartsong madeline has been singing here.

i will not lower myself to share what my inner self is trying to get me to type about all of you who behave this way while people are being gunned down all over the world, the earth is crying and spewing tears that are killing her creatures, and our societies are putrifying in their own decadence.

What is disheartening?

with respect and the hope you aren't going to go ballistic on me, go back and really read what maddie wrote and then think about what you have been posting along with it and you tell me.

i've backed your play on a couple of other threads when you were trading four-letter words with others. i think it's kinda inappropriate on this one.

maddie really reached deep for those words she posted. are you thinking as deeply or are you just 'rasslin'?

 

[CurveLight]

I was tired when I wrote the Op and could have done a better job, I suppose. I didn't write it to "prosletise atheism" and I don't consider myself an atheist. I have a firm belief in the Divine, but none whatsoever in an After-Life. I'm not sure what the name of this belief system would be, but t'aint atheism.

I don't think forgiveness is always best. Not if that means we forget. The Catholic Clergy of the 1950's and 1960's that I knew, observed, lived with and now judge were vicious child abusers, both physically and sexually (though thank God I escaped that horror show). I am fairly convinced you cannot emotionally abuse a child who sees you as a perpetual stranger they wish would go away, but if you can the drumbeat of my childhood was "sex is bad and women are the source of all evil". In order to feel a sense of dignity, I think it was necessary to reject that belief. And it wasn't hard to do. I think one reason my religious training never "took" is that it was far too much at odds with what I had learned from my folks, which seemed dead-on. People have value, regardless of their station in life. Education and art matter but money does not, after you have paid the bills. Forcing your neighbor to live in poverty is wrong. Lying and bullying people is wrong. Etc.

Some Christians I can kinda sorta understand. Avatar makes a certain amount of sense to me -- someone on a spiritual quest. Cecille seems angry that not everyone shares her beliefs, and while that is a familiar syndrome to me, it isn't especially easy to understand. Remember the part about "faith is a gift"? Why tag people who are not as "blessed" as you feel you have been? Where does the anger come from, if every cell in your being "believes" -- hook, line and sinker?

I am most amazed by fundamentalists. How is it possible to question evolution or believe the Bible is an accurate history of mankind? If you truly think God created the Earth in seven days, how do you account for dinosaurs? Neanderthal Man? I can't get over the fact that some people value a sort of anti-rationality, anti-science, anti-education, anti-progress, etc. Mysticism does not confuzzle me; altered states of consciousness appeal to a lot of people. But this rejection of knowledge of the natural world in favor of a fairy tale you surely must know is a lie? What is the pay off for that?

But like anyone else, my biggest question for Christians is how have you managed to miss the central message? "Love thy neighbor as thyself", "Judge not, lest ye be judged", "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone"? Do you just disregard these messages when they interfere with your impulse to be hateful or aggressive or acquire great wealth by evil means?

If we are supposed to be ethical beings, and I think we are, regardless of our faith, then doesn't there come a point when you look at your Pope, preacher or reverend and say "No, that's wrong. I won't do it." Ever? How can the drive to behave ethically coexist with total allegiance to anyone else's precepts?

Your parents taught you to love reading. Try reading the Book of Enoch if you want to understand 'afterlife'... it demonstrates the pain of the fallen angels after discovering part of the punishment for their crime (of turning against the Lord). Try reading the book of Jubilees for the 'answer' for dinosaurs (and other 'mythical' creatures). It makes a very scary statement about just what the fallen angels 'bred'.
As for Christians.... each is an individual. Judge them as such if you will. Because someone claims to be something, does not make it so. If you meet a wealthy (true) Christian, you will find they have been blessed, not keeping their neighbor down; they are among the most generous and kind people on the face of the earth.
Read Jerimiah to discover in the 'New Covenant', G*d will be written onto men's hearts (sense of right and wrong) and there will be no need for religious instruction.
Read the New Testament for what Yeshua says about the 'afterlife'. He is the Truth and the Light. He had no deceit in Him.
Your path is your own. You have made statements/observations. It will be up to you to decide how you proceed.

Think the last time I read this post it was on a 3x5 index card with a stale candy cane attached.

 

[CurveLight]

this sort of statement and others like it in this thread are disheartening to say the least in contrast with the beautiful heartsong madeline has been singing here.

i will not lower myself to share what my inner self is trying to get me to type about all of you who behave this way while people are being gunned down all over the world, the earth is crying and spewing tears that are killing her creatures, and our societies are putrifying in their own decadence.

What is disheartening?

with respect and the hope you aren't going to go ballistic on me, go back and really read what maddie wrote and then think about what you have been posting along with it and you tell me.

i've backed your play on a couple of other threads when you were trading four-letter words with others. i think it's kinda inappropriate on this one.

maddie really reached deep for those words she posted. are you thinking as deeply or are you just 'rasslin'?

I'm being no less sincere than Maddy and I doubt that is in question. I go ballistic because I get tired of so much bowlshit being served. People like cecille and mudwhistle roll out the same crap claim superiority then confuse themselves with God and wonder why people aren't bowing down. Most people know I will engage in any debate with sincerity if that is on the table but I have no patience for bullshit so if people can't handle it I just tell em to fuck off. If they're that damn sensitive then sincerity is a foreign agent.

 

[logical4u]

The RCC has a great deal of irrationality, syrenn. I don't understand how the Pope can sit in a room full of priceless masterpieces when he knows that people all over the world are ill or hungry or suffering. Why not auction off the Sistine Chapel etc. and feed the poor?

Benedict has covered himself in glory, though we've had other terrible Popes. I think Benedict's finest moment so far was his speech on the evils of using condoms. Apparently he is unconcerned about the death rate from AIDS in Africa and elsewhere.

Did Sister Theresa sit in the Vatican? No, she was in the slums of Calcutta until she died, giving to the downtrodden.....pretty amazing nun.....

And an outspoken opponent of a women's right to chose to end her pregnancies. How much did she really care about the poor if she worked so hard to deny them the opportunity to limit the number of children they give birth to and to cease to be breed cows pumping out more impoverished laborers for the rich and powerful.

She actually taught them a 'natural' birth control method. It involved only having sex when the woman could not get pregnant. Because she dealt with impoverished people, her method could be done with very little money in the beginning (a thermometer, writing utensil and calendar), and less money to maintain it, unlike: pills, IUD, condoms, spermicide, etc, etc, etc.

She was not an outspoken accessory to murder that deceived women into killing their own children. She taught them to limit them and to love the ones they had.