Why I Am Not A Christian

[logical4u]

Hey Maddie, what if you are wrong? By the way, I am convinced.

What will you say when you stand before Him? Oops?

But I will pray for you

I know what I would say...


"god...you are a jerk!

punishing people for such petty offenses is sick

NOBODY deserves to burn in hell forever simply for having sex outside of marriage
or getting divorced
or being gay
or for just not believing in you

plenty of DECENT and GOOD and HONORABLE people indulge in these acts andthey do NOT deserve to be punished for all eternity...

god
you are a sick bastard
and you should seek help

and
one last thing
you are completely wrong about slavery

slavery is NOT acceptable!

slavery is BAD!

now...go to your room and think about what you've done

and I don't want you to come out until you are ready to apoligize to ALL of mankind"

Slavery still exists today. Are you out there protesting it?
The Book of Enoch talks about slavery (I believe the beginning of slavery). The Lord was not in favor of 'kings', but when the Hebrews wanted a king, He gave them Saul. The Lord tolerated things that people did (slavery). Some things, He would not tolerate. He gave the Hebrews the Commandments when they BEGGED for rules to make their lives easier, not displeasing the Lord.

Also, in the Book of Enoch are different places mentioned for 'in the afterlife'. One is an unpleasant place filled with darkness (as punishment for transgressions), where people will be kept for a time. Another is a beautiful place with mountains of metal that people are taken there to prepare them for the 'presence of the Lord'. Also in the Old Testament, it is said that cowards will be laid down with women and children killed in battle.

He is a just Lord. You will be treated according to your actions. You will be punished for your sins. If your belief in Yeshua has led you to fight temptation and you try to walk in His ways, you will be welcome in His house. In Revelations, it says that every person will be judged for their actions. IMHO, this means that if you were too stubborn to believe another person's word (or the Bible), or were raised to believe in another religion, that when you come into His presence, you will recognize Him as the Lord. If you are genuine, and have lived well, He will be forgiving, if not, then, you may be given the sentence of hell, so that you will not be driven mad by the knowledge that you will never again, be in His presence.

Socialism IS slavery.... what you said above there. If you give power to the government over your life, you have sold yourself and your family into slavery.

 

[logical4u]

We really have dofferent taste! St Peter's Square is a beautiful space but the interior of St Peter's impresses me as being even more ugly and gaudy and garish than Versailles.

The overwhelming beauty of the Vatican reminds me of Jesus' poverty.

Good point. Since I think the Vatican is ooogly I am reminded by it that simplicity is a good thing.

The Vatican relates to Soloman's temple: when the Hebrews were allowed to go back to Jerusalem (i believe Nebecanezzer was in charge) by the Persian king, they started to rebuild the Temple. After the original leaders passed, the Hebrews grew distracted with every day life and did not finish the Temple. The Lord punished them because they had built great mansions for themselves, but left His House, unfinished. The church building is symbolic of the Lord's house. Not that He needs it, but a 'sacrifice' or 'show of faith' to the Lord. The church SHOULD build a tribute to the Lord that represents the BEST of what the community has to offer. It is the Lord's house, not ours.

 

[tommywho70x]

What is disheartening?

with respect and the hope you aren't going to go ballistic on me, go back and really read what maddie wrote and then think about what you have been posting along with it and you tell me.

i've backed your play on a couple of other threads when you were trading four-letter words with others. i think it's kinda inappropriate on this one.

maddie really reached deep for those words she posted. are you thinking as deeply or are you just 'rasslin'?

I'm being no less sincere than Maddy and I doubt that is in question. I go ballistic because I get tired of so much bowlshit being served. People like cecille and mudwhistle roll out the same crap claim superiority then confuse themselves with God and wonder why people aren't bowing down. Most people know I will engage in any debate with sincerity if that is on the table but I have no patience for bullshit so if people can't handle it I just tell em to fuck off. If they're that damn sensitive then sincerity is a foreign agent.

i feel you, man and that's why i do back your play sometimes. i'm also not questioning your sincerity, but the propriety of the sort of shouting match you were having in relation to the context of this thread.

almost says to me, well, there's one more reason i'm not a christian, muslim or jew. i claim adherence to their mother, the hebrew faith.

you're pretty young, yeah? (at this point, under 35 is pretty young in intellectual circles for me)

if i may, i studied philosophy under robert s. harder at u tampa. he's not widely known because he didn't teach at a big university and didn't publish much. it's more likely to have heard of his associate, robert saatkamp , who published more.

most of these jerkoffs would get cut to ribbons arguing with him and he rarely had to dip to vulgar language to do it. i don't think i ever heard saatkamp cuss but i sure saw them both humble a lot of folks, including me.

i've only been here a few weeks and already i'm meeting so many people with really valid, relevant commentary of their own who are thanking me and giving me pos rep for mine, that i decided that i wasn't going to lock horns with the assholes in the threads.

i don't want to undermine my own credibility and the respect that my writing is getting from so many cool folks whose writing is also respectable by getting into dungball fights like snarling baboons with these devolved mutants.

i decided that when some asswipe decides to point his flamethrower at me, i will only flame them back in a PM and ignore them in the thread so that i can focus on the worthy discussion.

i just did that to rabbi and it seems to have worked. he chickened out after one reply in the PM's and the thread didn't get ruined by a running, off-topic personal argument.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Do you not recognize the spiritual struggle between good and evil? I could not begin to tell you how many times in a day I have to choose between them, the Holy Spirit helps me daily.....

See I just use this thing called "conscience", which is based off this gnarly idea of ethics. But hey if talking towards the ceiling and believing an invisible "it" helps you figure out the difference between good and evil because you can't do it yourself then good for you!


Oh I see that you refuted his well organized and supported points with stereotyping and "it's just a difference of opinion". Good job! Perhaps others in this thread can follow your lead and similarly hand waive away valid arguments with statements like "O U JUST THINK UR SO SMART DONT U?!"


Oh good, looks like the teachings are taking root.

I've always found it mildly amusing myself when people have the hubris to try to hold God to a HUMAN understanding of morality.

I've always found it mildly amusing myself when people claim we can't have any understanding of deified morality and yet at the same time believe it's all just listed out in a book. I also found it largely amusing when religions claim morality, law, and ethics can somehow change over time, despite an omnipotent being demanding them. Cuz ya know slavery isn't so bad cuz the bible says it's ok.

As for the whole gender issue, I think it's clear that It had to have a penis to rape Mary. Unless It is a hermaphrodite. Which explains the whole "homosexuality is bad" thing as just a big self-hating insecurity. Or maybe I have it wrong altogether. Maybe It just had a turkey baster...

Looks like your understanding of Christianity is totally screwed.

You keep mixing up the Old Testament with the new.

Christianity is based on Jesus Christ....not on the writings of Moses, Abraham, and the other patriarchs listed in the Old Testament.

I'm a bit curious as to what part of his vaunted "conscience" and "ethics" told Bigot Boy that it was a good idea to utter the sentence "It had to have a penis to rape Mary". I think if that level of spiteful, vicious, intolerant attack is the sort of morality one gets from atheism, I'll pass.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You're an idiot. I didn't say we should refer to God as "her" either. Since God doesn't have tits or a vagina it would be equally stoopid to refer to God as "her."

Show where I claimed Cecille said works aren't necessary. If works are necessary that means forgiveness must be earned on some level.....which negates her claim.

No, it doesn't. If you come to me and say, "Cecilie, I'm really sorry for being such a dumbass all this time. Please forgive me," I'll forgive you right then. I don't require you to first demonstrate to me through works that you're no longer a dumbass. All I require is that you repent of your dumbass-ness in the past. HOWEVER, after I have forgiven you for being a dumbass, I would THEN reasonably expect you to demonstrate your sincerity through works by attempting not to be such a dumbass in the future. Otherwise, I might begin to suspect that your apology and request for forgiveness was less than sincere.

On the other hand, if you died of a heart attack right after asking me for forgiveness, and never had a chance to demonstrate that you were no longer a dumbass, you would still have been forgiven by me for having been a dumbass in the past.

Hope that clears things up for you a bit.

So your forgiveness is conditional upon your evaluation of my behavior. No. You didn't clear anything up cause I already knew you were arrogant enough to believe I would ask your forgiveness. You can fuck off you self-righteous life leech.

Really, is English not your first language?

I never said I believed you were smart enough to realize that you were a dumbass and needed to apologize to people for it. That's why I said "IF you did so". The word "if" generally appears when something is only theoretically possible, not likely, such as you ever being smart enough to be ashamed of how stupid you sound right now.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Checkmate? Rotfl! What a stoopid bitch. It's clear Cecille was saying works has no factor by pointing to the failed "faith alone" type bullshit and that nobody can earn anything by works. Have you figured out yet that God doesn't have a penis or vagina?

How the fuck would you know???



By the way....now you're contradicting yourself on the whole works thing. You said that Cecille was saying that works weren't a factor...then you asked me to point out when you accused her of that....then you turn back around and make the same stupidly dishonest claim once again. You spend more time chasing your tail then a Cocker Spaniel.

I always felt you were a little schizoid.

How would I know God doesn't have a penis or vagina? Common fucking sense you reetawrd.

As for the works thing.....a factor can be necessary or an unnecessary condition. Do you understand the diff between the two?

Really? Common sense told you that God has no genitals? Hmmm. How exactly does that work? You've never seen God, and certainly no detailed descriptions of God exist anywhere that I'm aware of, so would you mind explaining how you "logicked" out the state of His genitalia?

"A factor can be necessary or an unnecessary condition". In the context of the preceding conversation, I would have to say: What the fuck?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Love God, (or goodness, itself) and Love thy Neighbor as thyself. Follow in the footsteps of Jesus, the two great commandments.

Here they are:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second resembles it: You shall love your neighbour as yourself.
Mt 22:37-39

 

[Father Time]

The word "if" generally appears when something is only theoretically possible, not likely, such as you ever being smart enough to be ashamed of how stupid you sound right now.

This coming from someone who can barely write a single post without juvenile name calling.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The word "if" generally appears when something is only theoretically possible, not likely, such as you ever being smart enough to be ashamed of how stupid you sound right now.

This coming from someone who can barely write a single post without juvenile name calling.

Why are Christians not interested in being more like Christ?

 

[AllieBaba]

Christians are interested in being like Christ.

We also recognize there is no way to attain perfection, hence we need the intervention of Christ.

 

[Father Time]

The word "if" generally appears when something is only theoretically possible, not likely, such as you ever being smart enough to be ashamed of how stupid you sound right now.

This coming from someone who can barely write a single post without juvenile name calling.

Why are Christians not interested in being more like Christ?

A lot of them are, Cessy is not one of them.

 

[tommywho70x]

No, it doesn't. If you come to me and say, "Cecilie, I'm really sorry for being such a dumbass all this time. Please forgive me," I'll forgive you right then. I don't require you to first demonstrate to me through works that you're no longer a dumbass. All I require is that you repent of your dumbass-ness in the past. HOWEVER, after I have forgiven you for being a dumbass, I would THEN reasonably expect you to demonstrate your sincerity through works by attempting not to be such a dumbass in the future. Otherwise, I might begin to suspect that your apology and request for forgiveness was less than sincere.

On the other hand, if you died of a heart attack right after asking me for forgiveness, and never had a chance to demonstrate that you were no longer a dumbass, you would still have been forgiven by me for having been a dumbass in the past.

Hope that clears things up for you a bit.

cally possible, not likely, such as you ever being smart enough to be ashamed of how stupi


So your forgiveness is conditional upon your evaluation of my behavior. No. You didn't clear anything up cause I already knew you were arrogant enough to believe I would ask your forgiveness. You can fuck off you self-righteous life leech.

Really, is English not your first language?

I never said I believed you were smart enough to realize that you were a dumbass and needed to apologize to people for it. That's why I said "IF you did so". The word "if" generally appears when something is only theoretid you sound right now.

i posted the following in response to a off-topic and vulgar running argument you were having with curvelight earlier in this thread. it applied to both of you in that argument and now applies to both of you in this one.

be advised that if you turn on me with the same sort of attitude, the response will only be a PM. if you want to discuss this like an intelligent, open-minded adult, i'll be glad to intercourse with you in public. i'm going to do the nasty fuck you, fuck you back stuff in private from now on.



this sort of statement and others like it in this thread are disheartening to say the least in contrast with the beautiful heartsong madeline has been singing here.

i will not lower myself to share what my inner self is trying to get me to type about all of you who behave this way while people are being gunned down all over the world, the earth is crying and spewing tears that are killing her creatures, and our societies are putrifying in their own decadence.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Christians are interested in being like Christ.

We also recognize there is no way to attain perfection, hence we need the intervention of Christ.

How wonderful it would be if Christians who want to be more Christ-like prayed to Jesus to ask that their speech be pleasing to God.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The word "if" generally appears when something is only theoretically possible, not likely, such as you ever being smart enough to be ashamed of how stupid you sound right now.

This coming from someone who can barely write a single post without juvenile name calling.

Why are Christians not interested in being more like Christ?

Who said we aren't? There's a difference between being interested in being more like Christ, and being interested in being more like Christ as interpreted by someone who isn't even a Christian. I have no interest whatsoever in conforming to YOUR view of what I should or shouldn't be, and what improvements I AM interested in are between me and God, and no one else's business.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Christians are interested in being like Christ.

We also recognize there is no way to attain perfection, hence we need the intervention of Christ.

How wonderful it would be if Christians who want to be more Christ-like prayed to Jesus to ask that their speech be pleasing to God.

How wonderful it would be if non-Christians would contain the arrogance that makes them feel qualified to tell Christians how to practice a faith they don't share. Do I come in here and tell YOU how to be a Buddhist, and expect you to live up to my standards of how that belief system is practiced?

What you really want isn't for my speech to be pleasing to God, Sky. What you want is for my speech to be pleasing to YOU. Which begs the question of "who the heck are you that I should care?"

 

[PixieStix]

And many love to use the name of God when they curse, buddha damn it

 

[Sky Dancer]

Christians are interested in being like Christ.

We also recognize there is no way to attain perfection, hence we need the intervention of Christ.

How wonderful it would be if Christians who want to be more Christ-like prayed to Jesus to ask that their speech be pleasing to God.

How wonderful it would be if non-Christians would contain the arrogance that makes them feel qualified to tell Christians how to practice a faith they don't share. Do I come in here and tell YOU how to be a Buddhist, and expect you to live up to my standards of how that belief system is practiced?

What you really want isn't for my speech to be pleasing to God, Sky. What you want is for my speech to be pleasing to YOU. Which begs the question of "who the heck are you that I should care?"

The point is that I completely agree with the essence of Christianity which is love. You have a point. I have no business telling you about the two commandments of Jesus. I just happen to like them and think the world would be a better place if they were practiced in earnest.

If you don't care what I think don't read me or respond to me. Fair enough? Just put me on ignore and be at peace.

 

[Ringel05]

I was raised (in my early years) by two pinkos with VERY independent minds, and taught such things as how to read. When the folks were gone, I was raised in a Catholic orphanage. All religion, all the time, 24/7. I said the rosary every night and went to Confession every Saturday. I had Religious Instruction every day at school. So why didn't it stick?

The first thing I objected to was this need some folks seemed to have to have their asses kissed because they were Clergy. It didn't help that they were, almost to a person, sadistic, uncaring, evil fuckwhits. Ass kissing has just never been part of my skill set. I had a checkmark for "fails to show proper respect to Clergy" on my report card even single time for a decade -- and every time I would think "seems like the proper amount of respect to me -- ZERO."

So in no special order of importance, here's a list of the reasons I am not a Christian. I am hoping someone who is can address any of them and we can dialogue.

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

2. If Christ is the Messiah, then why didn't humanity enjoy a better life after he was here? There were still wars, and poverty, and suffering. I don't think most Christians understand the Jewish concept of a "Messiah". That person is supposed to SAVE us. I'm not feeling the saving bit so much.

3. I don't get what the Holy Spirit is about. A Supreme Being that seems not to have existed before God wanted to knock Mary up and now has no purpose at all.

4. The notion of a Trinity seems to contradict the first of the Ten Commandments: monotheism. If there is only one God, there cannot be three. It just isn't rational.

5. Speaking of rational, thanks for the condemnation of abortion, birth control, sex for Clergy (that paid off so well, didn't it?), people who are not Catholic (or whatever flavor you may be), etc. A special thanks to the "Creationism" nutters who've brought a new age of enlightenment into the classroom.

6. How is it "Christian" to deny food or medical care to a child if their parents won't first agree to convert to your religion? If your religion is so great, won't the people whom you serve eventually get curious about it? Why's it okay to coerce people into relinquishing their culture and their beliefs in favor of yours because you have the economic upper hand?

7. If prayer actually works, and God actually listens, isn't it evil to pray for the defeat of a high school football team or the results of a test? Doesn't God expect that you'll only pray for stuff that brings you closer to him?

8. How is it possible to reconcile, in your own mind, all the hatred and aggression undertaken in the name of religion with any message of any major religion? You know that it is wrong. How is it okay to commit Major Evil as long as you invoke God's name?

9. How can you seriously believe that a man in a red jump suit "tempts" you? Why can't you just accept responsibility for the evil you do? You're human -- no one has to tempt you. You're full of evil, selfish impulses and can only control them through the wonders of social conditioning, like the rest of us.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

By the way, I don't belong to any organized religion but I singled out Christians because I have been treated to their irrationality somewhat more often. No Muslim or Jew or Buddist, etc. has ever prosletized to me.

And all this means..... what? And why should I care?

 

[CurveLight]

No, it doesn't. If you come to me and say, "Cecilie, I'm really sorry for being such a dumbass all this time. Please forgive me," I'll forgive you right then. I don't require you to first demonstrate to me through works that you're no longer a dumbass. All I require is that you repent of your dumbass-ness in the past. HOWEVER, after I have forgiven you for being a dumbass, I would THEN reasonably expect you to demonstrate your sincerity through works by attempting not to be such a dumbass in the future. Otherwise, I might begin to suspect that your apology and request for forgiveness was less than sincere.

On the other hand, if you died of a heart attack right after asking me for forgiveness, and never had a chance to demonstrate that you were no longer a dumbass, you would still have been forgiven by me for having been a dumbass in the past.

Hope that clears things up for you a bit.

So your forgiveness is conditional upon your evaluation of my behavior. No. You didn't clear anything up cause I already knew you were arrogant enough to believe I would ask your forgiveness. You can fuck off you self-righteous life leech.

Really, is English not your first language?

I never said I believed you were smart enough to realize that you were a dumbass and needed to apologize to people for it. That's why I said "IF you did so". The word "if" generally appears when something is only theoretically possible, not likely, such as you ever being smart enough to be ashamed of how stupid you sound right now.

Seems to me you're the kind of person that likes to front about biblical knowledge but then runs as soon as you realize you wore a yellow belt to a 7th degree blackbelt match. So if forgiveness cannot be earned that means you shouldn't evaluate someone's behavior after forgiveness has been given. You're in a secret contest to be more inconsistent than obushama. Just admit it cause you're tied so far.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So your forgiveness is conditional upon your evaluation of my behavior. No. You didn't clear anything up cause I already knew you were arrogant enough to believe I would ask your forgiveness. You can fuck off you self-righteous life leech.

Really, is English not your first language?

I never said I believed you were smart enough to realize that you were a dumbass and needed to apologize to people for it. That's why I said "IF you did so". The word "if" generally appears when something is only theoretically possible, not likely, such as you ever being smart enough to be ashamed of how stupid you sound right now.

Seems to me you're the kind of person that likes to front about biblical knowledge but then runs as soon as you realize you wore a yellow belt to a 7th degree blackbelt match. So if forgiveness cannot be earned that means you shouldn't evaluate someone's behavior after forgiveness has been given. You're in a secret contest to be more inconsistent than obushama. Just admit it cause you're tied so far.

You know, I looked at my User Control Panel, saw that you had made a new post on this topic, and I said to myself, "I'll bet he doesn't have a single useful thing to add to this subject." Then I opened the thread, scrolled down, and won my bet.

Forgiveness, by definition, cannot be earned. If one "deserved" to be forgiven, one would not NEED to be forgiven in the first place. One of my favorite quotes ever is, "To forgive is an act of compassion. It's not done because people deserve it, it's done because they need it." That pretty much sums that up.

One evaluates their behavior after not to judge whether the forgiveness was deserved, but to judge whether or not the remorse was sincere. More to the point, since we are talking about God, who knew if your remorse was sincere at the time, the actions afterward are important because they are the other primary purpose of the entire exercise: to enable you to become a better person during your time on Earth.

There's no inconsistency here. Just a stubborn, pigheaded desire on your part not to understand what's being said, because your mind is made up, and goddamnit, no point of view will be allowed to have any merit except the one you've decided is correct.