Why I Am Not A Christian

[Anguille]

I have a very good basis for that claim. It's called "reading her posts". The only way you can read what Madeline has to say about Christianity and NOT come to the conclusion that she has unresolved childhood issues that impair her judgement on the subject is if you actively WANT to believe it's not true.

I didn't label her with a mental disorder. I never said, "You're a schizophrenic" or "you're a borderline personality". Everyone has issues, Sky, even you. Not everyone is impaired by them or requires counseling to deal with them, but I firmly believe Mad is and does.

And there's no "opportunity to debate the issues she raises" because she hasn't raised any. Literally the only thing she has raised is her own hatred and bigotry, and I am duly discussing it.

Madeline has stated that Christianity is anti-female and anti-sex. Those are debateable issues.

Whether she does or doesn't have 'unresolved issues requiring counseling' is none of your business. I don't recall Madeline inviting you to diagnose her with paranoia.

It's a logical fallacy. Instead of debating the issues she raises you're impugning her character calling her a hater and a bigot. There is a vast difference between taking the Catholic Church to task on it's teachings, policies and practices and hating Catholics.

Then how do you explain many people who have not experienced the same things that you or she has experienced? I grew up Catholic and never felt that it was anti-female or anti-sex. Maybe it's possible that other people have had difference experiences than you? It's not only possible, it's a fact. Why isn't 'she' bashing on the Muslim religion then if those are her issues? They are far more anti-female and anti-sex than the Christian religion ever was, yet I haven't heard a peep about Islam from any of you.

Get a clue. She wasn't raised a Muslim. If you want to start a thread about "Why I am not A Muslim", nothing is stopping you.

What a whiner you are!

 

[Newby]

You have no basis for this claim. Madeline has valid reasons to opt out of being a Christian.

It's insulting for you to label her with mental disorder. If you label your opponent crazy you miss an opportunity to debate the issues she raises.

The 'issues' that you are raising are from specific Catholic churches 25 to 35 years ago and have nothing to do with 95% of christianity as it is practiced today. Yet no matter how often that is said, you all continue to insist that it's all exactly as it was whenever your youthful experiences took place. I guess that's the only place from which you can continue to feel justified for the constant bashing tho, so you chose to remain in that time warp. I think Cecilie is completely right in the observation that counseling may be a good thing since it doesn't seem possible for movement out of the mindset that was formed when in childhood. I'm sincerely sorry that some have had bad experiences as children where religion was concerned, however, by adulthood one should realize that their childhood experiences were unique to them and perhaps a small percentage of others and not paint an entire religion with the same disdain they held for their childhood influences. Quit using what you experienced in your childhood as a crutch or an excuse, move on or get help with it.

I'd like to hear you say that to a person who was raped by a priest.

Is that different than being raped by your stepfather, your brother's friend, your uncle, or any other male that had even more trust than any priest in your life? How is that Christianity's fault or even associated with 'religion'? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what the church taught? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what Jesus taught? Absolutely not.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I have a very good basis for that claim. It's called "reading her posts". The only way you can read what Madeline has to say about Christianity and NOT come to the conclusion that she has unresolved childhood issues that impair her judgement on the subject is if you actively WANT to believe it's not true.

I didn't label her with a mental disorder. I never said, "You're a schizophrenic" or "you're a borderline personality". Everyone has issues, Sky, even you. Not everyone is impaired by them or requires counseling to deal with them, but I firmly believe Mad is and does.

And there's no "opportunity to debate the issues she raises" because she hasn't raised any. Literally the only thing she has raised is her own hatred and bigotry, and I am duly discussing it.

Madeline has stated that Christianity is anti-female and anti-sex. Those are debateable issues.

Whether she does or doesn't have 'unresolved issues requiring counseling' is none of your business. I don't recall Madeline inviting you to diagnose her with paranoia.

It's a logical fallacy. Instead of debating the issues she raises you're impugning her character calling her a hater and a bigot. There is a vast difference between taking the Catholic Church to task on it's teachings, policies and practices and hating Catholics.

Then how do you explain many people who have not experienced the same things that you or she has experienced? I grew up Catholic and never felt that it was anti-female or anti-sex. Maybe it's possible that other people have had difference experiences than you? It's not only possible, it's a fact. Why isn't 'she' bashing on the Muslim religion then if those are her issues? They are far more anti-female and anti-sex than the Christian religion ever was, yet I haven't heard a peep about Islam from any of you.

How do I explain that many people have not experienced the Catholic Church as anti-female or anti-sex? I don't need to. We've all had different experiences. You, Madeline and I were all raised Catholics and we each left the Catholic Church for different reasons.

Why would Madeline comment on Islam instead of Christianity? She wasn't raised a Muslim and the Islamic faith was not central to her spiritual path.

 

[JoLouis]

You want Islam? Mohammed could have KICKED Jesus' butt!!!!!!!!

 

[Anguille]

The 'issues' that you are raising are from specific Catholic churches 25 to 35 years ago and have nothing to do with 95% of christianity as it is practiced today. Yet no matter how often that is said, you all continue to insist that it's all exactly as it was whenever your youthful experiences took place. I guess that's the only place from which you can continue to feel justified for the constant bashing tho, so you chose to remain in that time warp. I think Cecilie is completely right in the observation that counseling may be a good thing since it doesn't seem possible for movement out of the mindset that was formed when in childhood. I'm sincerely sorry that some have had bad experiences as children where religion was concerned, however, by adulthood one should realize that their childhood experiences were unique to them and perhaps a small percentage of others and not paint an entire religion with the same disdain they held for their childhood influences. Quit using what you experienced in your childhood as a crutch or an excuse, move on or get help with it.

I'd like to hear you say that to a person who was raped by a priest.

Is that different than being raped by your stepfather, your brother's friend, your uncle, or any other male that had even more trust than any priest in your life? How is that Christianity's fault or even associated with 'religion'? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what the church taught? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what Jesus taught? Absolutely not.

Obviously, since it's become known that the Catholic church protected priests who were/are child rapists.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The 'issues' that you are raising are from specific Catholic churches 25 to 35 years ago and have nothing to do with 95% of christianity as it is practiced today. Yet no matter how often that is said, you all continue to insist that it's all exactly as it was whenever your youthful experiences took place. I guess that's the only place from which you can continue to feel justified for the constant bashing tho, so you chose to remain in that time warp. I think Cecilie is completely right in the observation that counseling may be a good thing since it doesn't seem possible for movement out of the mindset that was formed when in childhood. I'm sincerely sorry that some have had bad experiences as children where religion was concerned, however, by adulthood one should realize that their childhood experiences were unique to them and perhaps a small percentage of others and not paint an entire religion with the same disdain they held for their childhood influences. Quit using what you experienced in your childhood as a crutch or an excuse, move on or get help with it.

I'd like to hear you say that to a person who was raped by a priest.

Is that different than being raped by your stepfather, your brother's friend, your uncle, or any other male that had even more trust than any priest in your life? How is that Christianity's fault or even associated with 'religion'? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what the church taught? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what Jesus taught? Absolutely not.

The Catholic Church had a practice of systematically protecting pedophile priests. Tell me how that's ok. The sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church is growing around the world.

 

[Anguille]

Madeline has stated that Christianity is anti-female and anti-sex. Those are debateable issues.

Whether she does or doesn't have 'unresolved issues requiring counseling' is none of your business. I don't recall Madeline inviting you to diagnose her with paranoia.

It's a logical fallacy. Instead of debating the issues she raises you're impugning her character calling her a hater and a bigot. There is a vast difference between taking the Catholic Church to task on it's teachings, policies and practices and hating Catholics.

Then how do you explain many people who have not experienced the same things that you or she has experienced? I grew up Catholic and never felt that it was anti-female or anti-sex. Maybe it's possible that other people have had difference experiences than you? It's not only possible, it's a fact. Why isn't 'she' bashing on the Muslim religion then if those are her issues? They are far more anti-female and anti-sex than the Christian religion ever was, yet I haven't heard a peep about Islam from any of you.

How do I explain that many people have not experienced the Catholic Church as anti-female or anti-sex? I don't need to. We've all had different experiences. You, Madeline and I were all raised Catholics and we each left the Catholic Church for different reasons.

Why would Madeline comment on Islam instead of Christianity? She wasn't raised a Muslim and the Islamic faith was not central to her spiritual path.

I've known many people of many ages who have told me pretty much the same things you and Madeline have said about experiences being raised in the Catholic church. I have one friend who is now an atheist who says she believes she had a unique experience as child in the Catholic church in that all she remembers is fun festivities and being part of a large happy community. She says she misses all that but when she started to question her faith in god she found she actually had none and so she left the church.

 

[Madeline]

Newby wrote:

Is that different than being raped by your stepfather, your brother's friend, your uncle, or any other male that had even more trust than any priest in your life? How is that Christianity's fault or even associated with 'religion'? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what the church taught? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what Jesus taught? Absolutely not.

Yes it is different, Newby, and I bet you know that. It does not take a long ponder to realize that there's a great deal more room for mind-fucking when the abuser is clergy and the victim is Catholic. Then there's the entirety of the RCC's conduct, denying care to victims, shielding their property, taking depositions that reduced victims to tears, electing a pontiff with dirty hands, etc. etc. etc. I cannot believe anyone would even try to defend/excuse/minimize the RCC's history of sexually abusing children.

 

[Newby]

Madeline has stated that Christianity is anti-female and anti-sex. Those are debateable issues.

Whether she does or doesn't have 'unresolved issues requiring counseling' is none of your business. I don't recall Madeline inviting you to diagnose her with paranoia.

It's a logical fallacy. Instead of debating the issues she raises you're impugning her character calling her a hater and a bigot. There is a vast difference between taking the Catholic Church to task on it's teachings, policies and practices and hating Catholics.

Then how do you explain many people who have not experienced the same things that you or she has experienced? I grew up Catholic and never felt that it was anti-female or anti-sex. Maybe it's possible that other people have had difference experiences than you? It's not only possible, it's a fact. Why isn't 'she' bashing on the Muslim religion then if those are her issues? They are far more anti-female and anti-sex than the Christian religion ever was, yet I haven't heard a peep about Islam from any of you.

How do I explain that many people have not experienced the Catholic Church as anti-female or anti-sex? I don't need to. We've all had different experiences. You, Madeline and I were all raised Catholics and we each left the Catholic Church for different reasons.

Why would Madeline comment on Islam instead of Christianity? She wasn't raised a Muslim and the Islamic faith was not central to her spiritual path.

I find it odd that one would sit in judgment of a religion because it is supposedly anti-female and anti-sex, yet not make one comment about the religion that actually meets those two criteria in spades. It says to me there's another agenda in place, it's not about anti-female or anti-sex, it's about anti-christianity. I have more respect for the people that just come out and say it rather than trying to hide behind some sad childhood story.

 

[Madeline]

You want Islam? Mohammed could have KICKED Jesus' butt!!!!!!!!

Are you Muslim, JoLouis? Isn't that difficult, as a gay person?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Then how do you explain many people who have not experienced the same things that you or she has experienced? I grew up Catholic and never felt that it was anti-female or anti-sex. Maybe it's possible that other people have had difference experiences than you? It's not only possible, it's a fact. Why isn't 'she' bashing on the Muslim religion then if those are her issues? They are far more anti-female and anti-sex than the Christian religion ever was, yet I haven't heard a peep about Islam from any of you.

How do I explain that many people have not experienced the Catholic Church as anti-female or anti-sex? I don't need to. We've all had different experiences. You, Madeline and I were all raised Catholics and we each left the Catholic Church for different reasons.

Why would Madeline comment on Islam instead of Christianity? She wasn't raised a Muslim and the Islamic faith was not central to her spiritual path.

I find it odd that one would sit in judgment of a religion because it is supposedly anti-female and anti-sex, yet not make one comment about the religion that actually meets those two criteria in spades. It says to me there's another agenda in place, it's not about anti-female or anti-sex, it's about anti-christianity. I have more respect for the people that just come out and say it rather than trying to hide behind some sad childhood story.

Come on Newby, be honest. You have no respect for Madeline's experience.

 

[Newby]

I'd like to hear you say that to a person who was raped by a priest.

Is that different than being raped by your stepfather, your brother's friend, your uncle, or any other male that had even more trust than any priest in your life? How is that Christianity's fault or even associated with 'religion'? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what the church taught? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what Jesus taught? Absolutely not.

Obviously, since it's become known that the Catholic church protected priests who were/are child rapists.

I see, so the your contention is that the church actually taught their priests to rape children, that they preached this to their congregation? It was out in the open and everyone knew about it? Why would they need to 'protect' them if it was just a part of the church doctrine as you are so pitifully trying to claim here?

 

[Frank]

My apologies, Frank. The thread is now almost 70 pages long and to be honest, I don't recall your replies. I'd agree they most likely were not incendiary or I would.

So would you care to dialogue?

I see christianity as anti-female and anti-sexual; do you agree there's a problem in this regard?

No, I don't agree. You are generalizing that, based on your experience or perhaps your perceptions, that ALL of Christianity falls under the Catholic teachings. They do not. I never felt that how I was taught was "anti-female" at all in any way, shape, or form. As for "anti-sexual", I would not classify my upbringing as "repressed" or "anti-sexual", but simply something that was delegated to the family to convey and not for open discussion.

 

[Newby]

I'd like to hear you say that to a person who was raped by a priest.

Is that different than being raped by your stepfather, your brother's friend, your uncle, or any other male that had even more trust than any priest in your life? How is that Christianity's fault or even associated with 'religion'? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what the church taught? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what Jesus taught? Absolutely not.

The Catholic Church had a practice of systematically protecting pedophile priests. Tell me how that's ok. The sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church is growing around the world.

I've never said it was 'okay', and I never would. What the Catholic church did had nothing to do with Christianity or what Jesus taught in the Bible or what the church itself supposedly taught. That's my point. To associate what the Catholic church does with christianity in general is ridiculous, to use one of Mad's terms.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Is that different than being raped by your stepfather, your brother's friend, your uncle, or any other male that had even more trust than any priest in your life? How is that Christianity's fault or even associated with 'religion'? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what the church taught? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what Jesus taught? Absolutely not.

Obviously, since it's become known that the Catholic church protected priests who were/are child rapists.

I see, so the your contention is that the church actually taught their priests to rape children, that they preached this to their congregation? It was out in the open and everyone knew about it? Why would they need to 'protect' them if it was just a part of the church doctrine as you are so pitifully trying to claim here?

You have to be ignoring a lot of evidence to make this claim. The Catholic Church as an institution knew it had pedophile priests and the Church protected those priests by shipping them around from parish to parish spreading the pedophilia around.

I can't believe you think that's ok.

 

[Madeline]

Newby wrote:

I find it odd that one would sit in judgment of a religion because it is supposedly anti-female and anti-sex, yet not make one comment about the religion that actually meets those two criteria in spades. It says to me there's another agenda in place, it's not about anti-female or anti-sex, it's about anti-christianity. I have more respect for the people that just come out and say it rather than trying to hide behind some sad childhood story.

I'm not hiding a thing, Newby. The thread title should be a clue, the Op, all my posts -- the topic is "Why I Am Not A Christian". I'm saying one reason the faith held no charm for me was that it is crushingly mysoginistic and anti-sexual. Doubtless there are other faiths that are as well, but claiming that it is a "hidden agenda" to dicuss the most mainstream of all US faiths unless every other faith is likewise scruitnized is disingenuous.

The thread is not meant to be a comparative theology discussion, and claiming that other religions are "just as bad" as yours gets us exactly nowhere.

BTW, how can any self-respecting woman not find the RCC anti-female?

 

[Frank]

Obviously, since it's become known that the Catholic church protected priests who were/are child rapists.

I see, so the your contention is that the church actually taught their priests to rape children, that they preached this to their congregation? It was out in the open and everyone knew about it? Why would they need to 'protect' them if it was just a part of the church doctrine as you are so pitifully trying to claim here?

You have to be ignoring a lot of evidence to make this claim. The Catholic Church as an institution knew it had pedophile priests and the Church protected those priests by shipping them around from parish to parish spreading the pedophilia around.

I can't believe you think that's ok.

The Catholic church does NOT represent ALL of Christianity.

 

[Newby]

Newby wrote:

Is that different than being raped by your stepfather, your brother's friend, your uncle, or any other male that had even more trust than any priest in your life? How is that Christianity's fault or even associated with 'religion'? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what the church taught? Was the priest acting in a way that comported with what Jesus taught? Absolutely not.

Yes it is different, Newby, and I bet you know that. It does not take a long ponder to realize that there's a great deal more room for mind-fucking when the abuser is clergy and the victim is Catholic. Then there's the entirety of the RCC's conduct, denying care to victims, shielding their property, taking depositions that reduced victims to tears, electing a pontiff with dirty hands, etc. etc. etc. I cannot believe anyone would even try to defend/excuse/minimize the RCC's history of sexually abusing children.

That's pure bullshit. You're telling me if an uncle is raping you and telling you it's okay and to not tell anyone else in the family and taking advantage of his role in your life, that that's better than some priest who has limited access and authority over you? Give me a break.

I'm not the one minimizing it, you're the one trying to make it more deviant or worse than any other situation where a trusted adult is sexually abusing a child, and that's bullshit.

 

[froggy]

The answer is found in the opening of your op "I was raised (in my early years) by two pinkos with VERY independent minds," problem solved.

 

[Anguille]

How do I explain that many people have not experienced the Catholic Church as anti-female or anti-sex? I don't need to. We've all had different experiences. You, Madeline and I were all raised Catholics and we each left the Catholic Church for different reasons.

Why would Madeline comment on Islam instead of Christianity? She wasn't raised a Muslim and the Islamic faith was not central to her spiritual path.

I find it odd that one would sit in judgment of a religion because it is supposedly anti-female and anti-sex, yet not make one comment about the religion that actually meets those two criteria in spades. It says to me there's another agenda in place, it's not about anti-female or anti-sex, it's about anti-christianity. I have more respect for the people that just come out and say it rather than trying to hide behind some sad childhood story.

Come on Newby, be honest. You have no respect for Madeline's experience.

Newby be honest? lol!