Why I Don't Believe

[Delta4Embassy]

I'd respectfully submit there's a huge difference between knowing and believing. No one 'knows' God doesn't exist:

If you die and there's no afterlife or God you don't know anything. You're just dead. Yet that's the only way to know for sure. Everything else is just your personal beliefs.

If you "die" and "come back" you weren't really dead. How we define death changes over time. Just because your heart stops doesn't mean you're dead as it stop between every beat, and can be restarted even after it's stopped for some minutes. Similarly, no brain activity may not be dead either. Could simply be our current medical diagnostic tech isn't sensitive enough to detect the signs of braina ctivity present in those who come back from apparent brain death.

 

[PratchettFan]

I consider myself an atheist because I live my life under the assumption that there is no God. I think anyone from (5) to (7) on this scale is entitled to call themselves an Atheist.

.

I don't think any of those even apply to me. I happen to believe in God, but not what Dawkins was talking about, and I live my life in the belief that God is irrelevant. But I do find it interesting that Atheists, at least western Atheists which are the only ones I have any experience with, have such a distinctively Christian approach to this.

To me its cool as long as it's irrelevant.

So without organized religion telling you a god exists. In other words, without the made up story, knowing they aren't true, why do you still believe in a god? The greek gods to the egyptian gods to the jews to muslims to mormons to jehovas to born agains to catholics. We focus on christianity because most of you scoff at the other fairy tales but somehow believe your own. It is amazing.

I'm sorry. I don't seem to be communicating this very well. I believe because I believe. If you are looking for logic and objective reasons you will be disappointed. I don't need a reason to believe.

I'll be happy to scoff at my fairy tale. What I believe is silly, absurd and ridiculous. I am almost certainly wrong. But unless someone has something concrete to go on, I think I will just continue to believe. It works for me.

 

[PratchettFan]

That man is a fool who says to himself, “There is no God!” Anyone who talks like that is warped and evil and cannot really be a good person at all.Psalm 14:1===Only a fool would say to himself, “There is no God.” And why does he say it? Because of his wicked heart, his dark and evil deeds. His life is corroded with sin. PSALM 53:1 and you??? IF THE TRUTH HURTS DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT=CHANGE YOUR EVIL WAYS!!!

Oh good. You're back. People were getting worried about you. I hope all is well.

WONDERFUL!!! just wonderful!!! PTL. There is no downside to living life as a son of ALMIGHTY GOD!!!

Excellent. I'm happy for you.

 

[GISMYS]

GOD says little man has no excuse to not believe. FACE THE TRUTH!!=== The righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; as it is written: “The just shall live by faith.”

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them.

20 For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

21 For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
Romans 1:17-22

 

[pinqy]

That man is a fool who says to himself, “There is no God!” Anyone who talks like that is warped and evil and cannot really be a good person at all.Psalm 14:1===Only a fool would say to himself, “There is no God.” And why does he say it? Because of his wicked heart, his dark and evil deeds. His life is corroded with sin. PSALM 53:1 and you??? IF THE TRUTH HURTS DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT=CHANGE YOUR EVIL WAYS!!!

Which brings us back to my challenge/question: How does one just change beliefs based on fear of negative consequences and not actual evidence or support?

Would you really believe (not pretend, actually believe) that the Spice Girls are the greatest Rock group of all time if you were threatened with torture if you didn't?

NO THREATS=JUST FACTS =TRUTH. !

Ummmm telling someone that unless they believe they will suffer eternal torture is a threat. It's "Believe or else!"

How do you expect it to convince someone of (what you believe to be) the truth?

 

[GISMYS]

Which brings us back to my challenge/question: How does one just change beliefs based on fear of negative consequences and not actual evidence or support?

Would you really believe (not pretend, actually believe) that the Spice Girls are the greatest Rock group of all time if you were threatened with torture if you didn't?

NO THREATS=JUST FACTS =TRUTH. !

Ummmm telling someone that unless they believe they will suffer eternal torture is a threat. It's "Believe or else!"

How do you expect it to convince someone of (what you believe to be) the truth?

JESUS HUNG on a Roman cross to pay your sin debt,if you end up in hell it will be only because you REJECTED GOD'S love and forgivness and loved your sins more!!!

 

[PratchettFan]

NO THREATS=JUST FACTS =TRUTH. !

Ummmm telling someone that unless they believe they will suffer eternal torture is a threat. It's "Believe or else!"

How do you expect it to convince someone of (what you believe to be) the truth?

JESUS HUNG on a Roman cross to pay your sin debt,if you end up in hell it will be only because you REJECTED GOD'S love and forgivness and loved your sins more!!!

I do not abdicate my moral responsibility for my own actions. I cannot accept someone else to pay my bill. If that means I go to hell, then so be it.

 

[GISMYS]

Ummmm telling someone that unless they believe they will suffer eternal torture is a threat. It's "Believe or else!"

How do you expect it to convince someone of (what you believe to be) the truth?

JESUS HUNG on a Roman cross to pay your sin debt,if you end up in hell it will be only because you REJECTED GOD'S love and forgivness and loved your sins more!!!

I do not abdicate my moral responsibility for my own actions. I cannot accept someone else to pay my bill. If that means I go to hell, then so be it.

TOO BAD for you!!! Yes you are free to,pay your own sin debt= DEATH AND ETERNAL HELL!!! The wages of sin. Your choice!!! but you cannot then try to blame GOD!!!

 

[pinqy]

NO THREATS=JUST FACTS =TRUTH. !

Ummmm telling someone that unless they believe they will suffer eternal torture is a threat. It's "Believe or else!"

How do you expect it to convince someone of (what you believe to be) the truth?

JESUS HUNG on a Roman cross to pay your sin debt,if you end up in hell it will be only because you REJECTED GOD'S love and forgivness and loved your sins more!!!

No I have not. How can you reject something you don't believe happened? How can you accept something unless you already believe it exists?

 

[MaxGrit]

Ummmm telling someone that unless they believe they will suffer eternal torture is a threat. It's "Believe or else!"

How do you expect it to convince someone of (what you believe to be) the truth?

JESUS HUNG on a Roman cross to pay your sin debt,if you end up in hell it will be only because you REJECTED GOD'S love and forgivness and loved your sins more!!!

I do not abdicate my moral responsibility for my own actions. I cannot accept someone else to pay my bill. If that means I go to hell, then so be it.

Pride in self was the chief sin responsible in the downfall Satan and other demons.

Satan's pride turned him into an evil insane slanderer who caused his own damnation and neverending suffering in Hell.

 

[PratchettFan]

JESUS HUNG on a Roman cross to pay your sin debt,if you end up in hell it will be only because you REJECTED GOD'S love and forgivness and loved your sins more!!!

I do not abdicate my moral responsibility for my own actions. I cannot accept someone else to pay my bill. If that means I go to hell, then so be it.

TOO BAD for you!!! Yes you are free to,pay your own sin debt= DEATH AND ETERNAL HELL!!! The wages of sin. Your choice!!! but you cannot then try to blame GOD!!!

I am responsible for what I do, God is likewise responsible for what it does. Unlimited power does not remove that responsibility.

 

[RosieS]

I'd respectfully submit there's a huge difference between knowing and believing. No one 'knows' God doesn't exist:

If you die and there's no afterlife or God you don't know anything. You're just dead. Yet that's the only way to know for sure. Everything else is just your personal beliefs.

If you "die" and "come back" you weren't really dead. How we define death changes over time. Just because your heart stops doesn't mean you're dead as it stop between every beat, and can be restarted even after it's stopped for some minutes. Similarly, no brain activity may not be dead either. Could simply be our current medical diagnostic tech isn't sensitive enough to detect the signs of braina ctivity present in those who come back from apparent brain death.

I know it. There is no religion on this Earth that does not try to oppress someone.

When exactly zero religions can be the reflection of what they tell you their God is....no God exists.

When a religion exists that does not strive to personally oppress me...a me they never met and do not know... I could believe.

But I cannot. None of these Earthly Gods will allow it!

All these religions are job creators for men That we know. None provide actual equality for women. Some make the attempt, but still fall short.

It is by all these religions I know there is no God. By their fruits you shall know them. Strange fruits, these.

Regards from Rosie

 

[GISMYS]

Ummmm telling someone that unless they believe they will suffer eternal torture is a threat. It's "Believe or else!"

How do you expect it to convince someone of (what you believe to be) the truth?

JESUS HUNG on a Roman cross to pay your sin debt,if you end up in hell it will be only because you REJECTED GOD'S love and forgivness and loved your sins more!!!

No I have not. How can you reject something you don't believe happened? How can you accept something unless you already believe it exists?

SIMPLE!!!!====This Good News tells us that God makes us ready for heaven—makes us right in God’s sight—when we put our faith and trust in Christ to save us. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scripture says it, “The man who finds life will find it through trusting God.”*

18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, evil men who push away the truth from them. 19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively;[e] God has put this knowledge in their hearts. 20 Since earliest times men have seen the earth and sky and all God made, and have known of his existence and great eternal power. So they will have no excuse when they stand before God at Judgment Day.

21 Yes, they knew about him all right, but they wouldn’t admit it or worship him or even thank him for all his daily care. And after a while they began to think up silly ideas of what God was like and what he wanted them to do. The result was that their foolish minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming themselves to be wise without God, they became utter fools instead.
Romans 1:17-22

 

[PratchettFan]

JESUS HUNG on a Roman cross to pay your sin debt,if you end up in hell it will be only because you REJECTED GOD'S love and forgivness and loved your sins more!!!

I do not abdicate my moral responsibility for my own actions. I cannot accept someone else to pay my bill. If that means I go to hell, then so be it.

Pride in self was the chief sin responsible in the downfall Satan and other demons.

Satan's pride turned him into an evil insane slanderer who caused his own damnation and neverending suffering in Hell.

If you commited a murder and I offered to spend the rest of my life in jail instead of you, would allowing me to do that be a moral choice?

 

[PratchettFan]

I'd respectfully submit there's a huge difference between knowing and believing. No one 'knows' God doesn't exist:

If you die and there's no afterlife or God you don't know anything. You're just dead. Yet that's the only way to know for sure. Everything else is just your personal beliefs.

If you "die" and "come back" you weren't really dead. How we define death changes over time. Just because your heart stops doesn't mean you're dead as it stop between every beat, and can be restarted even after it's stopped for some minutes. Similarly, no brain activity may not be dead either. Could simply be our current medical diagnostic tech isn't sensitive enough to detect the signs of braina ctivity present in those who come back from apparent brain death.

I know it. There is no religion on this Earth that does not try to oppress someone.

When exactly zero religions can be the reflection of what they tell you their God is....no God exists.

When a religion exists that does not strive to personally oppress me...a me they never met and do not know... I could believe.

But I cannot. None of these Earthly Gods will allow it!

All these religions are job creators for men That we know. None provide actual equality for women. Some make the attempt, but still fall short.

It is by all these religions I know there is no God. By their fruits you shall know them. Strange fruits, these.

Regards from Rosie

Religions are just people. Religions don't oppress anyone. People do that.

 

[GISMYS]

I do not abdicate my moral responsibility for my own actions. I cannot accept someone else to pay my bill. If that means I go to hell, then so be it.

Pride in self was the chief sin responsible in the downfall Satan and other demons.

Satan's pride turned him into an evil insane slanderer who caused his own damnation and neverending suffering in Hell.

If you commited a murder and I offered to spend the rest of my life in jail instead of you, would allowing me to do that be a moral choice?

LOL!!! Now you a little man think you smarter,more just,more fair than ALMIGHTY GOD????????????????? ===This Good News tells us that God makes us ready for heaven—makes us right in God’s sight—when we put our faith and trust in Christ to save us. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scripture says it, “The man who finds life will find it through trusting God.”*

18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, evil men who push away the truth from them. 19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively; God has put this knowledge in their hearts. 20 Since earliest times men have seen the earth and sky and all God made, and have known of his existence and great eternal power. So they will have no excuse when they stand before God at Judgment Day.

21 Yes, they knew about him all right, but they wouldn’t admit it or worship him or even thank him for all his daily care. And after a while they began to think up silly ideas of what God was like and what he wanted them to do. The result was that their foolish minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming themselves to be wise without God, they became utter fools instead.
ROMANS 1:17-22

 

[MaxGrit]

I'd respectfully submit there's a huge difference between knowing and believing. No one 'knows' God doesn't exist:

If you die and there's no afterlife or God you don't know anything. You're just dead. Yet that's the only way to know for sure. Everything else is just your personal beliefs.

If you "die" and "come back" you weren't really dead. How we define death changes over time. Just because your heart stops doesn't mean you're dead as it stop between every beat, and can be restarted even after it's stopped for some minutes. Similarly, no brain activity may not be dead either. Could simply be our current medical diagnostic tech isn't sensitive enough to detect the signs of braina ctivity present in those who come back from apparent brain death.

I know it. There is no religion on this Earth that does not try to oppress someone.

When exactly zero religions can be the reflection of what they tell you their God is....no God exists.

When a religion exists that does not strive to personally oppress me...a me they never met and do not know... I could believe.

But I cannot. None of these Earthly Gods will allow it!

All these religions are job creators for men That we know. None provide actual equality for women. Some make the attempt, but still fall short.

It is by all these religions I know there is no God. By their fruits you shall know them. Strange fruits, these.

Regards from Rosie

At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

 

[Rationalist1016]

Then perhaps we can pin down our terms, or at least I can pin down mine for the sake of clarification.

I am holding a pen in my hand. I am willing to say that I know if I let go it is going to fall to the floor. Technically, one could call this more of a prediction than knowledge and that I do not actually know until after the fact. But for the purposes of this discussion, I think saying I know is ok.

Take that to my truck. I am sure that when I go down there it will start when I turn the key. Is it possible it won't, yep. But I know how I take care of it and I am quite confident it will start. That is not knowledge but it is a valid conclusion based upon hard evidence.

Now we go to God. I have no idea what evidence would demonstrate the existence or non-existence of God. I don't even know what God is. So any position I might take on it is a blind guess based upon no evidence of any sort. This is what I mean when I talk about belief. It is a position made without any evidence to support it.

That is how I see the difference between knowledge, a valid conclusion and a belief. Nowhere in that is there any distinction between positive or negative. Whether I say I know something is or I know it is not, the same level of evidentiary support is required.

Ok. I would agree to all that.
In YOUR god example, I would agree. But, in general, when you are engaged in a conversation with someone and the subject of god comes up, there is generally the assumption made that the god we are discussing is the biblical god. Unless otherwise specified. The label god carries some baggage with it. The word god has a definition. I would say god means different things to different people. So, maybe it would be better to start those conversations with, "what is your definition of god". Would you agree?

That would be an excellent starting point. I find it seldom happens. Everyone brings their own vision to the table and pretty much ignore the possibility there might be others. That too is a sign of belief. I might even go so far as to call it very human.

But let's take a definition and go from there. We might start with God being the creator of the universe, but that is pretty vague. So, unless you would rather use something else, how about we take Jesus - since I think it fair to say we are all familiar with him. I mean Jesus as savior, rather than Jesus as teacher. He died for our sins and now is in heaven to offer us salvation.

I think it safe to say neither of us buys that story. But what valid conclusions can be drawn regarding it? And remember what I mean by valid conclusion.

I agree, I do not believe that story. That is the extent of it. There is nothing demonstrable in there. There is no knowledge drawn from being told this story.

 

[GISMYS]

Worldly Wisdom is Foolishness to God
19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS"; 20and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."… 1 Corinthians 3:19

 

[RosieS]

I'd respectfully submit there's a huge difference between knowing and believing. No one 'knows' God doesn't exist:

If you die and there's no afterlife or God you don't know anything. You're just dead. Yet that's the only way to know for sure. Everything else is just your personal beliefs.

If you "die" and "come back" you weren't really dead. How we define death changes over time. Just because your heart stops doesn't mean you're dead as it stop between every beat, and can be restarted even after it's stopped for some minutes. Similarly, no brain activity may not be dead either. Could simply be our current medical diagnostic tech isn't sensitive enough to detect the signs of braina ctivity present in those who come back from apparent brain death.

I know it. There is no religion on this Earth that does not try to oppress someone.

When exactly zero religions can be the reflection of what they tell you their God is....no God exists.

When a religion exists that does not strive to personally oppress me...a me they never met and do not know... I could believe.

But I cannot. None of these Earthly Gods will allow it!

All these religions are job creators for men That we know. None provide actual equality for women. Some make the attempt, but still fall short.

It is by all these religions I know there is no God. By their fruits you shall know them. Strange fruits, these.

Regards from Rosie

Religions are just people. Religions don't oppress anyone. People do that.

An omnipotent, merciful God would ordain at least one religion which had the credo of equality among peoples and between genders.

The fact that zero exist is concrete evidence that God himself does not exist.

Regards from Rosie