Why I don't care why you don't believe in God.

[Tuatara]

The idea of Santa Claus comes from many inspired folkore and real people. Saint Nicholas, Kris Kringle, Father Christmas, Black Peter, Sinterklaas...etc. In fact within the early origins of Pagan Yule the god Odin was to believed to be the earliest influence of Santa Claus. Whether it was a good idea or not does not make one true. Many actors have portrayed God. Does not make him real. There is no proof either way for a god or Santa or Santa as a god.

I doubt Saint Nicholas was inspired by tales of Odin any more than children in China were inspired to take up dolls by the children in Africa. An interesting difference between the Odin story and that of Saint Nicholas, is that with Odin, the kindness starts with children being kind to the adults. Meanwhile, Saint Nicholas is an adult who is kind to children. The central theme is kindness--and kindness is universal. Like children playing with dolls, it is not something one copies from another culture. That Christian customs developed from Pagan customs has been pretty much debunked--but it was a good try by atheists, and it certainly sounded plausible.

Debunked by who. It is common knowledge that the christian customs developed over time from non-christian ideas. Including Santa. His red suit was an idea from Coca-Cola. And again Santa comes from many sources, not just the one you claim.

18th-century America’s Santa Claus was not the only St. Nicholas-inspired gift-giver to make an appearance at Christmastime. Similar figures were popular all over the world. Christkind or Kris Kringle was believed to deliver presents to well-behaved Swiss and German children. Meaning “Christ child,” Christkind is an angel-like figure often accompanied by St. Nicholas on his holiday missions. In Scandinavia, a jolly elf named Jultomten was thought to deliver gifts in a sleigh drawn by goats. English legend explains that Father Christmas visits each home on Christmas Eve to fill children’s stockings with holiday treats. Pere Noel is responsible for filling the shoes of French children. In Russia, it is believed that an elderly woman named Babouschka purposely gave the wise men wrong directions to Bethlehem so that they couldn’t find Jesus. Later, she felt remorseful, but could not find the men to undo the damage. To this day, on January 5, Babouschka visits Russian children leaving gifts at their bedsides in the hope that one of them is the baby Jesus and she will be forgiven. In Italy, a similar story exists about a woman called La Befana, a kindly witch who rides a broomstick down the chimneys of Italian homes to deliver toys into the stockings of lucky children.

As for Odin representing an earlier connection to Santa.

"The god Odin's role during the Yuletide period has been theorized as having influenced concepts of St. Nicholas in a variety of facets, including his long white beard and his gray horse for nightly rides (see Odin's horse Sleipnir), which was traded for reindeer in North America. Margaret Baker comments that "The appearance of Santa Claus or Father Christmas, whose day is 25th of December, owes much to Odin, the old blue-hooded, cloaked, white-bearded Giftbringer of the north, who rode the midwinter sky on his eight-footed steed Sleipnir, visiting his people with gifts. … Odin, transformed into Father Christmas, then Santa Claus, prospered with St Nicholas and the Christchild became a leading player on the Christmas stage."

Christmas Customs And Folklore


Also read this

Zwarte Piet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Iceweasel]

There's no proof either way for Santa Claus either but I'm quite sure most adults are atheistic about the existence of him.

Another childish atheist game. We have answers for the presents under the tree. You have no answer for the universe. Get it?

What do you mean no answer for the universe? That is not a question. Also the idea of Santa came from many sources as I pointed out earlier. It still doesn't proove if he actually existed or not.

You're being deliberately obtuse. Focus....the universe got here...how? Answer that if you believe in a secular cause or be honest and admit you have no clue.

Like I said BEFORE, we DO have answers for how the presents get under the tree and no reason to believe in folklore.

Why are atheists so dishonest?

 

[the_human_being]

Every knee will bow every tongue will confess. It has gone out of My mouth and will not return.

 

[sealybobo]

THats your question or point? That no one knows? So then what would a scientist do if you came to them with such evidence to a hypothesis you're trying to convince them of?

I'll tell you what they would do with it. They would throw it out do you understand that so to be agnostic about a theory that isn't even a theory yet it's insane. You're not neutral on this you don't believe God f*** marry you don't believe God talk to Moses you don't believe God talk to Joseph Smith or Muhammad or the Jehovah Witnesses you don't believe any of it so why are you exhausted about it? If you were talking about a generic God or creator then who cares he's thinking about you just as much as you're thinking about it ant in Ethiopia

Good grief. My only point, as indicated in my first pair, which you responded to, was that jerkoffs that shit on the holiday to insult those that celebrate so that they can get their own rocks off were/ are douchebags.

That stuff people type in the box and you respond to? Try reading it some time.

People who come here to debate this have been coming here long before xmas

Yah, no kidding. That changes nothing wrt to the post to which you responded, your repeated efforts to steer in the direction of a broader debate notwithstanding.

In terms of a broader debate, there is no 'winner', ever on this topic. I've seen many, and participated in my share, on other forums. They go nowhere and typically devolve quickly into nonsense as both sides go through their well-trodden paths of 'argument' on this issue and ride it well into dead horse territory.

Well I can tell you my intention is not to hurt good religious people. In fact I never spout this stuff in public. I come here because I hope eventually society will wake up and not need this crap.

I just feel that religions are bad for human beings and have maybe held us back 10,000 years. Imagine where we might be if we didn't fight all those religious wars. Imagine if stupid American Christians didn't fight the USSR in the cold war over some bullshit. Maybe we'd already be on Mars.

You know, you guys cry about the babies that are never born because they've been aborted. How about all the young men who died during the Thirty Years' War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Because of religion, their kids were never born and so instead of their ancestors being alive today, they are not because some religious nut cut their family line off.

"You guys?"

Another attempt to broad brush me into a category so you can then put words in my mouth which you can then dispute.

I think the abortion issue is settled. I think the late term abortions are beyond repugnant, and think someone has plenty of time to get it done before the abortee is developed enough to wander across the room and dial up a cab, so that is a real head-scratcher for me, but abortion in general is settled, far as I'm concerned.

I have a feeling if faced with the same situation these parents were faced with, at least 75% of YOU PEOPLE would get the late term abortion.

Next on POV: After Tiller

And if you wouldn't, good for you. I choose not to be saddled with a mongoloid child if I can avoid it before it is born. Not interested in raising that. I know all the arguments for raising a retard, but I'm not interested in going through the experience. What kind of life is that for the parents or kid? I'm a Spartan. Seriously, dad's family was from Sparta and mom from Athens. We would toss the baby in the pit of death. Hopefully it doesn't live and come back to bite us in the ass like this guy did.

 

[Meriweather]

Debunked by who. It is common knowledge that the christian customs developed over time from non-christian ideas. Including Santa. His red suit was an idea from Coca-Cola. And again Santa comes from many sources, not just the one you claim.

18th-century America’s Santa Claus was not the only St. Nicholas-inspired gift-giver to make an appearance at Christmastime. Similar figures were popular all over the world. Christkind or Kris Kringle was believed to deliver presents to well-behaved Swiss and German children. Meaning “Christ child,” Christkind is an angel-like figure often accompanied by St. Nicholas on his holiday missions. In Scandinavia, a jolly elf named Jultomten was thought to deliver gifts in a sleigh drawn by goats. English legend explains that Father Christmas visits each home on Christmas Eve to fill children’s stockings with holiday treats. Pere Noel is responsible for filling the shoes of French children. In Russia, it is believed that an elderly woman named Babouschka purposely gave the wise men wrong directions to Bethlehem so that they couldn’t find Jesus. Later, she felt remorseful, but could not find the men to undo the damage. To this day, on January 5, Babouschka visits Russian children leaving gifts at their bedsides in the hope that one of them is the baby Jesus and she will be forgiven. In Italy, a similar story exists about a woman called La Befana, a kindly witch who rides a broomstick down the chimneys of Italian homes to deliver toys into the stockings of lucky children.

As for Odin representing an earlier connection to Santa.

"The god Odin's role during the Yuletide period has been theorized as having influenced concepts of St. Nicholas in a variety of facets, including his long white beard and his gray horse for nightly rides (see Odin's horse Sleipnir), which was traded for reindeer in North America. Margaret Baker comments that "The appearance of Santa Claus or Father Christmas, whose day is 25th of December, owes much to Odin, the old blue-hooded, cloaked, white-bearded Giftbringer of the north, who rode the midwinter sky on his eight-footed steed Sleipnir, visiting his people with gifts. … Odin, transformed into Father Christmas, then Santa Claus, prospered with St Nicholas and the Christchild became a leading player on the Christmas stage."

Christmas Customs And Folklore


Also read this

Zwarte Piet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks, I read all of that, and my statement stands. Similar stories, concepts, and ideas often arise independently--they are not all (not often, even) based on pagan customs. While Saint Nicholas is known for giving gifts to the poor, obviously he is not known for wearing a red suit.

Note, even when there are similarities, the differences are what tell the tale. What I like about the Odin tale is that children are rewarded for being kind. In the tale of Saint Nicholas, the poor are being cared for. With Santa Claus, both ideas try to come together.

My point is not to argue that one certain story is the absolute foundation for today's customs. I'm merely pointing out that all our customs today are not founded on pagan rituals. Often they arise independently. Studying the differences instead of jumping to conclusions about universal similarities is the key.

 

[sealybobo]

Well I can tell you my intention is not to hurt good religious people. In fact I never spout this stuff in public. I come here because I hope eventually society will wake up and not need this crap.

I just feel that religions are bad for human beings and have maybe held us back 10,000 years. Imagine where we might be if we didn't fight all those religious wars. Imagine if stupid American Christians didn't fight the USSR in the cold war over some bullshit. Maybe we'd already be on Mars.

You know, you guys cry about the babies that are never born because they've been aborted. How about all the young men who died during the Thirty Years' War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Because of religion, their kids were never born and so instead of their ancestors being alive today, they are not because some religious nut cut their family line off.

Wars have nothing to do with religion. It has to do with disputes over wealth, power, and territory, trying to wear a cloak of religion to give it some respectability. In Forums today, it's used to change the topic and a weak attempt to turn the tables.

Focus on God, on religion, instead of war. Why don't atheists seek God? Instead of trying to understand the theme of any Biblical story, what's with always bringing in satire and mockery? I understand people who teach or promote religious ways are not perfect, and we do not teach or act perfectly either. In the end, all we want is to assure people of the reality of God, and that their individual search for Him is well worth their while. Experiencing God will no more send someone off to fight a "religious war" than being pregnant will send someone to an abortion clinic.

I think Neil Degrass Tyson and Carl Sagan have successfully given reasons why they don't believe in gods and they went to great lengths to not mock or offend. But they gave compelling reasons why they believe religion isn't all good too. How in some ways it has held us back. How it is used to keep us down. Don't ask me to give examples. If you haven't watched the Cosmos, I suggest it. Watch them twice. Then maybe you'll see the goal isn't to mock you. The goal is to wake up society. Let go of the ancient superstitions. They're doing us little to no good. I know it makes a lot of you feel good, but we feel good without it. Instead of church go do charity work every week with a group of people who all may or may not believe in god. Call it the church of good people. Who would mock them? They don't talk of going to hell or how god hates fags.

Why do you need to assure us of the reality of god when you yourself aren't even sure? You have faith but not possible you are sure. Did it visit you? Do you feel it in your heart? Sorry, but that's nonsense.

How about you read a science book instead of a holy book? Then maybe you can figure out how to get us off this rock so humans live forever, or at least as long as the universe burns bright with stars. Instead you worry about yourself living forever? I'm worried about human race, you're worried about you. How selfish is that?

 

[Meriweather]

I have a feeling if faced with the same situation these parents were faced with, at least 75% of YOU PEOPLE would get the late term abortion.

Next on POV: After Tiller

And if you wouldn't, good for you. I choose not to be saddled with a mongoloid child if I can avoid it before it is born. Not interested in raising that. I know all the arguments for raising a retard, but I'm not interested in going through the experience. What kind of life is that for the parents or kid? I'm a Spartan. Seriously, dad's family was from Sparta and mom from Athens. We would toss the baby in the pit of death. Hopefully it doesn't live and come back to bite us in the ass like this guy did.

I don't think anyone would want the experience, and I have a feeling that, if faced with it, your own choice might surprise you. As a substitute teacher, I often work with special needs children (in their teen years). While I wouldn't wish it on anyone, if you worked with them, you might come to understand that while it is sorrowful, even terrible at times, their.lives.matter. I wouldn't claim all, but some of these lives are a blessing to others.

All this being said, I would not have the courage to pray to God, "Choose me to parent a special needs child."

 

[Tuatara]

Debunked by who. It is common knowledge that the christian customs developed over time from non-christian ideas. Including Santa. His red suit was an idea from Coca-Cola. And again Santa comes from many sources, not just the one you claim.

18th-century America’s Santa Claus was not the only St. Nicholas-inspired gift-giver to make an appearance at Christmastime. Similar figures were popular all over the world. Christkind or Kris Kringle was believed to deliver presents to well-behaved Swiss and German children. Meaning “Christ child,” Christkind is an angel-like figure often accompanied by St. Nicholas on his holiday missions. In Scandinavia, a jolly elf named Jultomten was thought to deliver gifts in a sleigh drawn by goats. English legend explains that Father Christmas visits each home on Christmas Eve to fill children’s stockings with holiday treats. Pere Noel is responsible for filling the shoes of French children. In Russia, it is believed that an elderly woman named Babouschka purposely gave the wise men wrong directions to Bethlehem so that they couldn’t find Jesus. Later, she felt remorseful, but could not find the men to undo the damage. To this day, on January 5, Babouschka visits Russian children leaving gifts at their bedsides in the hope that one of them is the baby Jesus and she will be forgiven. In Italy, a similar story exists about a woman called La Befana, a kindly witch who rides a broomstick down the chimneys of Italian homes to deliver toys into the stockings of lucky children.

As for Odin representing an earlier connection to Santa.

"The god Odin's role during the Yuletide period has been theorized as having influenced concepts of St. Nicholas in a variety of facets, including his long white beard and his gray horse for nightly rides (see Odin's horse Sleipnir), which was traded for reindeer in North America. Margaret Baker comments that "The appearance of Santa Claus or Father Christmas, whose day is 25th of December, owes much to Odin, the old blue-hooded, cloaked, white-bearded Giftbringer of the north, who rode the midwinter sky on his eight-footed steed Sleipnir, visiting his people with gifts. … Odin, transformed into Father Christmas, then Santa Claus, prospered with St Nicholas and the Christchild became a leading player on the Christmas stage."

Christmas Customs And Folklore


Also read this

Zwarte Piet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks, I read all of that, and my statement stands. Similar stories, concepts, and ideas often arise independently--they are not all (not often, even) based on pagan customs. While Saint Nicholas is known for giving gifts to the poor, obviously he is not known for wearing a red suit.

Note, even when there are similarities, the differences are what tell the tale. What I like about the Odin tale is that children are rewarded for being kind. In the tale of Saint Nicholas, the poor are being cared for. With Santa Claus, both ideas try to come together.

My point is not to argue that one certain story is the absolute foundation for today's customs. I'm merely pointing out that all our customs today are not founded on pagan rituals. Often they arise independently. Studying the differences instead of jumping to conclusions about universal similarities is the key.

This is what I said all along that the idea of Santa came from many sources and I pointed out several.

Debunked by who. It is common knowledge that the christian customs developed over time from non-christian ideas. Including Santa. His red suit was an idea from Coca-Cola. And again Santa comes from many sources, not just the one you claim.

18th-century America’s Santa Claus was not the only St. Nicholas-inspired gift-giver to make an appearance at Christmastime. Similar figures were popular all over the world. Christkind or Kris Kringle was believed to deliver presents to well-behaved Swiss and German children. Meaning “Christ child,” Christkind is an angel-like figure often accompanied by St. Nicholas on his holiday missions. In Scandinavia, a jolly elf named Jultomten was thought to deliver gifts in a sleigh drawn by goats. English legend explains that Father Christmas visits each home on Christmas Eve to fill children’s stockings with holiday treats. Pere Noel is responsible for filling the shoes of French children. In Russia, it is believed that an elderly woman named Babouschka purposely gave the wise men wrong directions to Bethlehem so that they couldn’t find Jesus. Later, she felt remorseful, but could not find the men to undo the damage. To this day, on January 5, Babouschka visits Russian children leaving gifts at their bedsides in the hope that one of them is the baby Jesus and she will be forgiven. In Italy, a similar story exists about a woman called La Befana, a kindly witch who rides a broomstick down the chimneys of Italian homes to deliver toys into the stockings of lucky children.

As for Odin representing an earlier connection to Santa.

"The god Odin's role during the Yuletide period has been theorized as having influenced concepts of St. Nicholas in a variety of facets, including his long white beard and his gray horse for nightly rides (see Odin's horse Sleipnir), which was traded for reindeer in North America. Margaret Baker comments that "The appearance of Santa Claus or Father Christmas, whose day is 25th of December, owes much to Odin, the old blue-hooded, cloaked, white-bearded Giftbringer of the north, who rode the midwinter sky on his eight-footed steed Sleipnir, visiting his people with gifts. … Odin, transformed into Father Christmas, then Santa Claus, prospered with St Nicholas and the Christchild became a leading player on the Christmas stage."

Christmas Customs And Folklore


Also read this

Zwarte Piet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks, I read all of that, and my statement stands. Similar stories, concepts, and ideas often arise independently--they are not all (not often, even) based on pagan customs. While Saint Nicholas is known for giving gifts to the poor, obviously he is not known for wearing a red suit.

Note, even when there are similarities, the differences are what tell the tale. What I like about the Odin tale is that children are rewarded for being kind. In the tale of Saint Nicholas, the poor are being cared for. With Santa Claus, both ideas try to come together.

My point is not to argue that one certain story is the absolute foundation for today's customs. I'm merely pointing out that all our customs today are not founded on pagan rituals. Often they arise independently. Studying the differences instead of jumping to conclusions about universal similarities is the key.

This is what I said all along that the origins of Santa have been inspired by many customs and folklore. The fact that the Pagan folklore outdates all of them shows at least a starting point. I'm sure it even goes back further. You were the one to argue "I doubt Saint Nicholas was inspired by tales of Odin". Although there are differences we should also recognize the similarities.

 

[Tuatara]

There's no proof either way for Santa Claus either but I'm quite sure most adults are atheistic about the existence of him.

Another childish atheist game. We have answers for the presents under the tree. You have no answer for the universe. Get it?

What do you mean no answer for the universe? That is not a question. Also the idea of Santa came from many sources as I pointed out earlier. It still doesn't proove if he actually existed or not.

You're being deliberately obtuse. Focus....the universe got here...how? Answer that if you believe in a secular cause or be honest and admit you have no clue.

Like I said BEFORE, we DO have answers for how the presents get under the tree and no reason to believe in folklore.

Why are atheists so dishonest?

What am I being dishonest about. Seeking clarity on a non-question. As for the how te universe got here. I don't know. I've heard many plausible explanations but I can't say for sure. Just because someone claims a secular cause does not means it's true. Many, many years ago no one knew how lightning was formed. There were many "god" reasons attributed to this phenomenom. We now know better.

 

[Mudda]

So gravity couldn't have existed if we hadn't discovered it? ...
I just think that there's possibly more than just what we can see right now. Could there be multiple universes? Could our universe be an experiment in someone's lab that we just can't see right now? ... The possibilities are endless and until empirical evidence points in the right direction, no possibility that hasn't been empirically proven to be wrong should be discounted prematurely.

Doesn't sound like you are referring to any of the gods of any of the organized religions. In that case, I am perfectly ok with someone thinking there MIGHT be a generic thing that created the universe. Your position is so vanilla generic who cares, right? If you aren't claiming he visited you or that I'll go to hell for not believing you, we really have nothing to argue about. You believe there could be a creator, and I too won't rule it out. I tend to lean on the side of doubt based on all the information I've uncovered, but still I can't say I know for sure so that's why I say I'm an agnostic atheist. I doubt it but remain open to the possibility. Do you lean either way?

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

Would you call someone who says this an agnostic?

He saying there's nothing to suggest an afterlife, he's not saying no, there is no afterlife period. So yes, he could be considered an agnostic, but it's not really clear because he doesn't tackle the subject directly. Maybe he did have a position? I can't really tell by this quote.

In answer to the question why does the Universe exist, many traditional cultural answers have been simply to state that God did it. The belief that "everything must have a cause, therefore God exists" is called a First Cause argument. But that merely results in new questions: (1) why did god create the Universe? and (2) why does God exist? If it is valid to say "everything has a cause except God", it is more likely that everything has a cause except the Universe. If God doesn't need a cause because it is infinite, it is more likely that the natural Universe has existed forever and therefore doesn't need a cause. You therefore make fewer assumptions, and cause fewer puzzles, if you admit that you believe in one uncaused entity, and that that one uncaused entity is the Universe itself.

We don't know the reason for the universe existing, and don't know whether it was caused or not. Maybe one day we will... Until then I leave open all possibilities that have not been empirically discounted.

There is no reason the universe exists. It exists. That's it. No reason. See that big boulder outside? What is the reason it exists?

Again, you can't say for sure that there's not a specific reason for the universe existing. Well, you can say it, but you'd be wrong.

 

[Fueri]

Good grief. My only point, as indicated in my first pair, which you responded to, was that jerkoffs that shit on the holiday to insult those that celebrate so that they can get their own rocks off were/ are douchebags.

That stuff people type in the box and you respond to? Try reading it some time.

People who come here to debate this have been coming here long before xmas

Yah, no kidding. That changes nothing wrt to the post to which you responded, your repeated efforts to steer in the direction of a broader debate notwithstanding.

In terms of a broader debate, there is no 'winner', ever on this topic. I've seen many, and participated in my share, on other forums. They go nowhere and typically devolve quickly into nonsense as both sides go through their well-trodden paths of 'argument' on this issue and ride it well into dead horse territory.

Well I can tell you my intention is not to hurt good religious people. In fact I never spout this stuff in public. I come here because I hope eventually society will wake up and not need this crap.

I just feel that religions are bad for human beings and have maybe held us back 10,000 years. Imagine where we might be if we didn't fight all those religious wars. Imagine if stupid American Christians didn't fight the USSR in the cold war over some bullshit. Maybe we'd already be on Mars.

You know, you guys cry about the babies that are never born because they've been aborted. How about all the young men who died during the Thirty Years' War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Because of religion, their kids were never born and so instead of their ancestors being alive today, they are not because some religious nut cut their family line off.

"You guys?"

Another attempt to broad brush me into a category so you can then put words in my mouth which you can then dispute.

I think the abortion issue is settled. I think the late term abortions are beyond repugnant, and think someone has plenty of time to get it done before the abortee is developed enough to wander across the room and dial up a cab, so that is a real head-scratcher for me, but abortion in general is settled, far as I'm concerned.

I have a feeling if faced with the same situation these parents were faced with, at least 75% of YOU PEOPLE would get the late term abortion.

Next on POV: After Tiller

And if you wouldn't, good for you. I choose not to be saddled with a mongoloid child if I can avoid it before it is born. Not interested in raising that. I know all the arguments for raising a retard, but I'm not interested in going through the experience. What kind of life is that for the parents or kid? I'm a Spartan. Seriously, dad's family was from Sparta and mom from Athens. We would toss the baby in the pit of death. Hopefully it doesn't live and come back to bite us in the ass like this guy did.

In cases of a deformity I can see it if it is diagnosed late in the pregnancy. For sake of simple convenience, that is another matter entirely. When you have to deliver it partially so you can jam a tube in its head to suck its brains out and can still claim to kill it inside mom so it's legal, while it may be healthy and viable otherwise if it had only slid another few inches or so down the birth canal I have issues there.

The broad brush/ putting words in the other person's mouth routine is roaming decidedly into one-trick pony territory at this point. I don't actually care if you'd like to continue to flail away in some odd attempt to categorize me so that you can mount an attack by first telling me what I think and then why it is wrong, but it's going nowhere for you and, with the third or fourth time around this circle, it is starting to bore me.

 

[Iceweasel]

There's no proof either way for Santa Claus either but I'm quite sure most adults are atheistic about the existence of him.

Another childish atheist game. We have answers for the presents under the tree. You have no answer for the universe. Get it?

What do you mean no answer for the universe? That is not a question. Also the idea of Santa came from many sources as I pointed out earlier. It still doesn't proove if he actually existed or not.

You're being deliberately obtuse. Focus....the universe got here...how? Answer that if you believe in a secular cause or be honest and admit you have no clue.

Like I said BEFORE, we DO have answers for how the presents get under the tree and no reason to believe in folklore.

Why are atheists so dishonest?

What am I being dishonest about. Seeking clarity on a non-question. As for the how te universe got here. I don't know. I've heard many plausible explanations but I can't say for sure. Just because someone claims a secular cause does not means it's true. Many, many years ago no one knew how lightning was formed. There were many "god" reasons attributed to this phenomenom. We now know better.

Yep, but that's just more obfuscation. People thought the Earth was flat but it says nothing to whether god exists or not. If there's no god the question was how did we get there. Interesting that the most profound question imaginable would be a non-question in your mind.

 

[sealybobo]

Doesn't sound like you are referring to any of the gods of any of the organized religions. In that case, I am perfectly ok with someone thinking there MIGHT be a generic thing that created the universe. Your position is so vanilla generic who cares, right? If you aren't claiming he visited you or that I'll go to hell for not believing you, we really have nothing to argue about. You believe there could be a creator, and I too won't rule it out. I tend to lean on the side of doubt based on all the information I've uncovered, but still I can't say I know for sure so that's why I say I'm an agnostic atheist. I doubt it but remain open to the possibility. Do you lean either way?

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

Would you call someone who says this an agnostic?

He saying there's nothing to suggest an afterlife, he's not saying no, there is no afterlife period. So yes, he could be considered an agnostic, but it's not really clear because he doesn't tackle the subject directly. Maybe he did have a position? I can't really tell by this quote.

In answer to the question why does the Universe exist, many traditional cultural answers have been simply to state that God did it. The belief that "everything must have a cause, therefore God exists" is called a First Cause argument. But that merely results in new questions: (1) why did god create the Universe? and (2) why does God exist? If it is valid to say "everything has a cause except God", it is more likely that everything has a cause except the Universe. If God doesn't need a cause because it is infinite, it is more likely that the natural Universe has existed forever and therefore doesn't need a cause. You therefore make fewer assumptions, and cause fewer puzzles, if you admit that you believe in one uncaused entity, and that that one uncaused entity is the Universe itself.

We don't know the reason for the universe existing, and don't know whether it was caused or not. Maybe one day we will... Until then I leave open all possibilities that have not been empirically discounted.

There is no reason the universe exists. It exists. That's it. No reason. See that big boulder outside? What is the reason it exists?

Again, you can't say for sure that there's not a specific reason for the universe existing. Well, you can say it, but you'd be wrong.

I would? Or could I also be right?

Are you claiming to know the reason for the universe or that there is a reason for sure? Because that's not agnostic

 

[sealybobo]

People who come here to debate this have been coming here long before xmas

Yah, no kidding. That changes nothing wrt to the post to which you responded, your repeated efforts to steer in the direction of a broader debate notwithstanding.

In terms of a broader debate, there is no 'winner', ever on this topic. I've seen many, and participated in my share, on other forums. They go nowhere and typically devolve quickly into nonsense as both sides go through their well-trodden paths of 'argument' on this issue and ride it well into dead horse territory.

Well I can tell you my intention is not to hurt good religious people. In fact I never spout this stuff in public. I come here because I hope eventually society will wake up and not need this crap.

I just feel that religions are bad for human beings and have maybe held us back 10,000 years. Imagine where we might be if we didn't fight all those religious wars. Imagine if stupid American Christians didn't fight the USSR in the cold war over some bullshit. Maybe we'd already be on Mars.

You know, you guys cry about the babies that are never born because they've been aborted. How about all the young men who died during the Thirty Years' War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Because of religion, their kids were never born and so instead of their ancestors being alive today, they are not because some religious nut cut their family line off.

"You guys?"

Another attempt to broad brush me into a category so you can then put words in my mouth which you can then dispute.

I think the abortion issue is settled. I think the late term abortions are beyond repugnant, and think someone has plenty of time to get it done before the abortee is developed enough to wander across the room and dial up a cab, so that is a real head-scratcher for me, but abortion in general is settled, far as I'm concerned.

I have a feeling if faced with the same situation these parents were faced with, at least 75% of YOU PEOPLE would get the late term abortion.

Next on POV: After Tiller

And if you wouldn't, good for you. I choose not to be saddled with a mongoloid child if I can avoid it before it is born. Not interested in raising that. I know all the arguments for raising a retard, but I'm not interested in going through the experience. What kind of life is that for the parents or kid? I'm a Spartan. Seriously, dad's family was from Sparta and mom from Athens. We would toss the baby in the pit of death. Hopefully it doesn't live and come back to bite us in the ass like this guy did.

In cases of a deformity I can see it if it is diagnosed late in the pregnancy. For sake of simple convenience, that is another matter entirely. When you have to deliver it partially so you can jam a tube in its head to suck its brains out and can still claim to kill it inside mom so it's legal, while it may be healthy and viable otherwise if it had only slid another few inches or so down the birth canal I have issues there.

The broad brush/ putting words in the other person's mouth routine is roaming decidedly into one-trick pony territory at this point. I don't actually care if you'd like to continue to flail away in some odd attempt to categorize me so that you can mount an attack by first telling me what I think and then why it is wrong, but it's going nowhere for you and, with the third or fourth time around this circle, it is starting to bore me.

Really? Because other than your obsession with me putting you in a box I thought we were just getting somewhere and I thought you made a good point until the end when you cry like a baby lol

 

[sealybobo]

There's no proof either way for Santa Claus either but I'm quite sure most adults are atheistic about the existence of him.

Another childish atheist game. We have answers for the presents under the tree. You have no answer for the universe. Get it?

What do you mean no answer for the universe? That is not a question. Also the idea of Santa came from many sources as I pointed out earlier. It still doesn't proove if he actually existed or not.

You're being deliberately obtuse. Focus....the universe got here...how? Answer that if you believe in a secular cause or be honest and admit you have no clue.

Like I said BEFORE, we DO have answers for how the presents get under the tree and no reason to believe in folklore.

Why are atheists so dishonest?

What am I being dishonest about. Seeking clarity on a non-question. As for the how te universe got here. I don't know. I've heard many plausible explanations but I can't say for sure. Just because someone claims a secular cause does not means it's true. Many, many years ago no one knew how lightning was formed. There were many "god" reasons attributed to this phenomenom. We now know better.

Yep, but that's just more obfuscation. People thought the Earth was flat but it says nothing to whether god exists or not. If there's no god the question was how did we get there. Interesting that the most profound question imaginable would be a non-question in your mind.

Man has been asking this question for as far back as we can remember within five thousand or so years ago men started claiming God visited. So I don't think it's unfair for the atheists to go back to the original debate before men lied and said God visited them or why anybody would take offense to the question or suggestion or possibility that there is no f****** god

 

[sealybobo]

I wonder do religious people realize that up until the Jews lied about Moses's visit with God and subsequently Mohammed Joseph Smith marry and whoever else claims that he met God and God told them a bunch of things to put in a book and these are the rules that we should all live by, it was just innocent conversation about how it all began. Nobody should be getting their feelings hurt when somebody claims there isn't a god and the only people I see getting weird about the conversation are religious people who say you'll go to hell if you don't believe their version of God or that God exists at all what is the harm of this conversation why do religious people get their feelings hurt?

 

[sealybobo]

And who cares If you get your feelings hurt sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[Fueri]

Yah, no kidding. That changes nothing wrt to the post to which you responded, your repeated efforts to steer in the direction of a broader debate notwithstanding.

In terms of a broader debate, there is no 'winner', ever on this topic. I've seen many, and participated in my share, on other forums. They go nowhere and typically devolve quickly into nonsense as both sides go through their well-trodden paths of 'argument' on this issue and ride it well into dead horse territory.

Well I can tell you my intention is not to hurt good religious people. In fact I never spout this stuff in public. I come here because I hope eventually society will wake up and not need this crap.

I just feel that religions are bad for human beings and have maybe held us back 10,000 years. Imagine where we might be if we didn't fight all those religious wars. Imagine if stupid American Christians didn't fight the USSR in the cold war over some bullshit. Maybe we'd already be on Mars.

You know, you guys cry about the babies that are never born because they've been aborted. How about all the young men who died during the Thirty Years' War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Because of religion, their kids were never born and so instead of their ancestors being alive today, they are not because some religious nut cut their family line off.

"You guys?"

Another attempt to broad brush me into a category so you can then put words in my mouth which you can then dispute.

I think the abortion issue is settled. I think the late term abortions are beyond repugnant, and think someone has plenty of time to get it done before the abortee is developed enough to wander across the room and dial up a cab, so that is a real head-scratcher for me, but abortion in general is settled, far as I'm concerned.

I have a feeling if faced with the same situation these parents were faced with, at least 75% of YOU PEOPLE would get the late term abortion.

Next on POV: After Tiller

And if you wouldn't, good for you. I choose not to be saddled with a mongoloid child if I can avoid it before it is born. Not interested in raising that. I know all the arguments for raising a retard, but I'm not interested in going through the experience. What kind of life is that for the parents or kid? I'm a Spartan. Seriously, dad's family was from Sparta and mom from Athens. We would toss the baby in the pit of death. Hopefully it doesn't live and come back to bite us in the ass like this guy did.

In cases of a deformity I can see it if it is diagnosed late in the pregnancy. For sake of simple convenience, that is another matter entirely. When you have to deliver it partially so you can jam a tube in its head to suck its brains out and can still claim to kill it inside mom so it's legal, while it may be healthy and viable otherwise if it had only slid another few inches or so down the birth canal I have issues there.

The broad brush/ putting words in the other person's mouth routine is roaming decidedly into one-trick pony territory at this point. I don't actually care if you'd like to continue to flail away in some odd attempt to categorize me so that you can mount an attack by first telling me what I think and then why it is wrong, but it's going nowhere for you and, with the third or fourth time around this circle, it is starting to bore me.

Really? Because other than your obsession with me putting you in a box I thought we were just getting somewhere and I thought you made a good point until the end when you cry like a baby lol

Yes, I called you on it repeatedly because you did it repeatedly. That's not an 'obsession' any more than is an NFL referee 'obsessed' for calling a penalty on the same player who continues to jump offside repeatedly.

I commented on your initial comment wrt to late term abortion and saw the 'YOU PEOPLE' portion of the post as more of the same broad brush crap, so it was flushed summarily down the shitter. If that bugs you don't do it.

I am not going to allow you the luxury of defining both ends of the conversation, not because I am a baby, but because I am not a fool. Calling me a baby won't stop my pointing out that tactic as the tactic it is, but not trying to slide that past me most definitely will.

 

[Meriweather]

I think Neil Degrass Tyson and Carl Sagan have successfully given reasons why they don't believe in gods and they went to great lengths to not mock or offend. But they gave compelling reasons why they believe religion isn't all good too. How in some ways it has held us back. How it is used to keep us down. Don't ask me to give examples. If you haven't watched the Cosmos, I suggest it. Watch them twice. Then maybe you'll see the goal isn't to mock you. The goal is to wake up society. Let go of the ancient superstitions. They're doing us little to no good. I know it makes a lot of you feel good, but we feel good without it. Instead of church go do charity work every week with a group of people who all may or may not believe in god. Call it the church of good people. Who would mock them? They don't talk of going to hell or how god hates fags.

I was not speaking of Tyson or Sagan. I don't know Tyson, but am a bit familiar with Sagan. I am speaking of those on this forum we see mocking religion/scripture. Let's take the well-meaning, who do not mock. Exploration and mining are two examples of essentially good activities resulting in many terrible deaths. Just as overall good would not be served by asking people to give up exploration and mining, nor would the overall good be served by asking people to give up their relationships with God.

I belong to the Catholic Church, and not once in my life have I heard any priest say how non-believer are going to hell. Never once have I heard anyone who spoke in the Catholic Church say, "God hates fags."

Why do you need to assure us of the reality of god when you yourself aren't even sure? You have faith but not possible you are sure. Did it visit you? Do you feel it in your heart? Sorry, but that's nonsense.

I am sure. I have been visited, but not in a way that would supply you with the physical evidence you desire. For the integrity of my own experience, I would never say, "I know God created the universe. I believe this, but this is not something I know. There are many other things in scripture I believe but don't know.

Here is what I do know: There is a God, and He loves and cares about each of us beyond imagining. I know truly seeking God--as He IS, not how as we want Him to be--brought me results. I don't have to worry about an afterlife, I know. And do you know what all of this has brought me? It brought me the knowledge that how blessed are others who have not seen, yet believe. I no longer have that blessing. I wanted knowledge, not faith.

How about you read a science book instead of a holy book? Then maybe you can figure out how to get us off this rock so humans live forever, or at least as long as the universe burns bright with stars. Instead you worry about yourself living forever? I'm worried about human race, you're worried about you. How selfish is that?

How many more science books would you like me to read, and how many more science classes would you like me to teach? And, yes, I have taught evolution numerous times, and I am quite good at it. This in between my reading of theology books as well.

Humans do live forever. Only part of our existence is on 'this rock' as you term it. Fear not. (One of my favorite passages in scripture.) Funny, come to think of it. I often tell science students the same thing when they are working a touchy lab.

 

[Meriweather]

This is what I said all along that the origins of Santa have been inspired by many customs and folklore. The fact that the Pagan folklore outdates all of them shows at least a starting point. I'm sure it even goes back further. You were the one to argue "I doubt Saint Nicholas was inspired by tales of Odin". Although there are differences we should also recognize the similarities.

I caught that you missed that I was saying essentially the same thing that you are trying to argue with me. My point about Saint Nicholas and Odin is that I doubt Saint Nicholas read tales of Odin, and therefore could not have been inspired by him. Instead, Saint Nicholas was more likely to be reading scriptures that implore that we take care of the poor--and was inspired by them.

In order for you to prove that Odin was the one who inspired Saint Nicholas, you would have to prove that Saint Nicholas actually read the tales about Odin. I doubt that could be proved--or disproved. What is a reality is that Saint Nicholas read scripture. That's all I meant.

Similarities, which rose independently, are meaningless when trying to prove the first one had to have been the effect of a later one. Some things (such as kindness and dolls) are universal.

Anyway, in reading your posts, I think we are closer than you are thinking. I was just trying (and perhaps badly) to make the point about similarities rising independently and without knowledge, from the other.