Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[Porter Rockwell]

It’s a waste of money . If the goal is to address illegal immigration, then that money is better spent in other ways .

More ins agents , more immigrantion courts , more judges . More enforcement vs companies who hire illegals . That’s a better use if the money .

Keep illegals from coming in without proper permission. We don’t need the rest. That’s better use of money. Less crime, less money spent to support non tax payers. And libs piss away more money for foreign aid, than is spent on legitimate tax paying citizens. The libs are just trying to block Don from keeping campaigning promises that will benefit our citizens and economy. They will give everything away for free, and raise taxes to pay for it.


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Facts to substantiate this?

You are calling people "illegals" before they come here. So, you reject the notion of innocent until proven guilty?

When you apply to come in and follow the protocol, you are involved in a legal procedure. When you walk in a caravan, and are going in not matter what, you are illegal. There are people in the legal process of entry. Cut the line next time at the movies, a restaurant, or grocery store, and advise us of the outcome. If the legal process is followed, we don’t need to spend money on people to enforce the rules and laws on people who break them. Whatever anyone’s opinion, the president wants to protect the security of the country and keep law enforcement safe doing it. Americans tax dollars, should mean Americans first. A wall, barrier or whatever you want to call it, is just part of this. Cameras, drones, computer systems, access roads, vehicles, and personnel to make it work are the rest of the process. Want a fence between your neighbors house, you are done. This isn’t anything like that. And the money he’s asking to be approved isn’t out of line. All those against this, have supported it in the past. They want to show him up, at the cost of keeping our country safe. Hypocrisy.


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I, for one, have NEVER thought that putting America under surveillance 24 / 7 / 365 is a good idea. For FIFTEEN YEARS, those in favor of the wall have denied that the Democrats were for it first. Now, they are admitting it.

What a difference a day makes. Benjamin Franklin once said something to the effect that those who would give up essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety deserved neither Liberty NOR Safety.

That is the very argument the build the wall supporters are conveying on this thread. So, unless they can conjure up some legitimate reason to maintain their stance, they are arguing against Liberty and they are the REAL problem in America.

Agree to disagree. We are not putting America on surveillance, just the borders. Obviously an issue of national security currently. No one is saying put cameras on your home or mine. But, go anywhere in our country and you have been recorded for posterity. This does actually solve a lot of crime throughout the country. If you think we have a lot of surveillance here, England for example is that much more. This is a done deal, and not going anywhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are arguing against common sense in legal technicalities. Since the border wall people argue this is a legal issue (Trump is wisely calling it a National Security issue) you don't know how the precedent will be used.

As I have pointed out repeatedly, the same court decision used to keep the feds from forcing local police into enforcing the Brady Bill is the same decision that saved Sanctuary Cities.

Giving the feds more tools to put you under surveillance is pure madness. BTW, that damn 14th Amendment some of those who agree with you want to save will be the issue (equal protection of the laws) that will enhance government surveillance on you.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

What a difference a day makes. Benjamin Franklin once said something to the effect that those who would give up essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety deserved neither Liberty NOR Safety.

So who's giving up liberty? Build a wall and I won't lose a speck of liberty.

It's ridiculous to try and have a sane conversation with a madman. So you really think suspending the Constitution in order to enforce your dumb ass wall is not a threat to your Liberty?

Who are you going to try and make believe that? Me or you?

 

[OKTexas]

It’s a waste of money . If the goal is to address illegal immigration, then that money is better spent in other ways .

More ins agents , more immigrantion courts , more judges . More enforcement vs companies who hire illegals . That’s a better use if the money .

Keep illegals from coming in without proper permission. We don’t need the rest. That’s better use of money. Less crime, less money spent to support non tax payers. And libs piss away more money for foreign aid, than is spent on legitimate tax paying citizens. The libs are just trying to block Don from keeping campaigning promises that will benefit our citizens and economy. They will give everything away for free, and raise taxes to pay for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Facts to substantiate this?

You are calling people "illegals" before they come here. So, you reject the notion of innocent until proven guilty?

When you apply to come in and follow the protocol, you are involved in a legal procedure. When you walk in a caravan, and are going in not matter what, you are illegal. There are people in the legal process of entry. Cut the line next time at the movies, a restaurant, or grocery store, and advise us of the outcome. If the legal process is followed, we don’t need to spend money on people to enforce the rules and laws on people who break them. Whatever anyone’s opinion, the president wants to protect the security of the country and keep law enforcement safe doing it. Americans tax dollars, should mean Americans first. A wall, barrier or whatever you want to call it, is just part of this. Cameras, drones, computer systems, access roads, vehicles, and personnel to make it work are the rest of the process. Want a fence between your neighbors house, you are done. This isn’t anything like that. And the money he’s asking to be approved isn’t out of line. All those against this, have supported it in the past. They want to show him up, at the cost of keeping our country safe. Hypocrisy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I, for one, have NEVER thought that putting America under surveillance 24 / 7 / 365 is a good idea. For FIFTEEN YEARS, those in favor of the wall have denied that the Democrats were for it first. Now, they are admitting it.

What a difference a day makes. Benjamin Franklin once said something to the effect that those who would give up essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety deserved neither Liberty NOR Safety.

That is the very argument the build the wall supporters are conveying on this thread. So, unless they can conjure up some legitimate reason to maintain their stance, they are arguing against Liberty and they are the REAL problem in America.

What a crock of shit, no one is trying to deny Americans their liberty. They are trying to secure our country to prevent the loss of lives, liberty and property.

.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

One of the most effective ploys by those attempting to vilify undocumented immigrants is to assert that those immigrants are stealing benefits from Americans. Donald Trump has deployed this falsehood over and over and has even promised a law to stop. The fact is there's already is law. In was passed in 1996.

Federal dollars for the following social services are expressed forbidden by federal law:

• Children’s Health Insurance (CHIP)
  
  
• Disability, aka Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
  
  
• Food stamps, aka The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)
  
  
• Health insurance, aka insurance via the Affordable Care Act (ACA)
  
  
• Medicaid
  
  
• Medicare
  
  
• Social Security
  
  
• Welfare

Not only are undocumented immigrants barred from these benefits, legal immigrants are also barred for 7 years.

Depending on the state federal dollars can be used for the following under certain circumstances:

• Emergency medical care, including ER visits and Emergency Medicaid
  
  
• Schooling
  
  
• Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children (WIC)

In spite of the facts, there are a constant stream of claims of billion and hundreds of billions of dollars being spent on illegal immigrants. States can of course fund programs that benefit undocumented immigrants but they can't use federal dollars.

No, Undocumented Immigrants Aren't Stealing Your Benefits | HuffPost

They're not forbidden for their anchor babies and yes the government reimburses hospitals about 4 billion a year to treat illegal aliens. And what do you think it costs the country for jails, prisons, schooling, property damage in auto accidents, courts (State, local and federal). Then you have property theft, identity theft, murder, kidnapping, assault, rape and various other crimes, none are free to their victims. And the lists go on and on, 100 billion a year is a conservative estimate.

Oh I forgot border and interior law enforcement to round those suckers up, then it costs almost 12,000 each to deport them.

.

The first time I ever heard the allegation that the children of undocumented parents "cost" taxpayers, I went to the hospital and spoke to a woman quoted in the article used to prove the allegation.

The lady I spoke to was Paula Martin. Remember, I spoke to her in person, face to face. When presented with the article, she told me that the taxpayers do NOT reimburse the hospital for any INDIGENT patient. When those who hate the foreigners revised the story, they lied again. Instead of admitting this, the next time the right commented on it, they said:

"The Gwinnett (GA.) Hospital System expects more illegal immigrants will present themselves for urgent care this year and has established a $34 million reserve to cover its outlay."

The Social Contract - Illegal Aliens - The Health Cost Dimension

The $34 million dollar set aside is for INDIGENT patients, not undocumented foreigners. Do undocumented foreigners represent some of those? Yes, they do. But, there are people like the homeless and the downright lazy who avail themselves of this set aside. I have a worthless POS relative (by marriage) that is on the hook to that hospital for $54,000 right now.

So, how do the hospitals generate this $34 million dollars?

Most of the money is generated from uninsured people who pay for their services. And the bad part for those who don't like the undocumented, they pay into that amount as well. They do so because if they pay their income taxes via an Individual Tax Identification Number and keep their bills paid up, they are the first to be considered when amnesties roll around.

Additionally, the undocumented use the hospital for their primary care. And, as long as they pay on their bill, they can continue to use the hospital for routine services.

So, I know, for a fact, you're peddling a lie here. Why do you REALLY not want undocumented foreigners to come here?

How American Citizens Finance $18.5 Billion In Health Care For Unauthorized Immigrants

OMG, Ray. First you have an article that claims $2 Billion dollars. I find another that says $4 Billion dollars. Now we're up to $18.5 Billion dollars. Let me quote something from your article:

"Medicare DSH Payments. In a similar fashion, although the formula is much more complicated, Medicare also pays hospitals a DSH payment that effectively serves as a general subsidy to offset aggregate uncompensated care losses without making any distinction between uncompensated costs generated by unauthorized immigrants and those generated by American citizens or legal immigrants."

Translated into English, the general public is too stupid to understand the partisan figures so they devise "formulas" that we're not supposed to understand.

Instead of trying to enlighten me with these idiotic articles, see if you can spend your day finding out the truth.

Where do your Rights come from?

Do some research on your article and show me the amount those undocumented foreigners contribute to offset the alleged cost.

This is really idiotic Ray. There are a finite number of people here reading this. You guys that want a border wall parrot the trash that was put together by white supremacists. I'm not condemning you for that.

What I'm saying is that you cannot build your philosophy on lies to the point that you can no longer distinguish between reality and propaganda. Today, I'd like to see something NEW from you. You see, I'm more to the right than you because I am a constitutionalist.

When you bring debunked B.S. to the table every day, we cannot use it to persuade those who have stayed isolated from this issue and are just learning. When they do a little research, your facts don't hold up and if you're honest - ever since Trump has been put in charge, public opinion has swung left. No politician has jumped parties to be on Trump's side. Some office holders have left the Republican Party to become Democrats. The House of Representatives is indicative of the fact that what you're doing isn't working.

Can you answer my questions Ray? Can you tell us where you get your Rights from? Can you give us a legitimate reason you're so opposed to foreigners?

Don't try to pee down my neck and tell me it's raining. If it were an issue like the Medicare / Medicaid stuff, you will find it easier to make it harder for undocumented foreigners to get the benefits and privileges of citizenship rather than transform America into a third world socialist cesspool.

I gave you several reasons I'm opposed to these foreigners, but YOU LEFTISTS put your hands against your ears and sing aloud. You people have a tendency to do that when the truth smacks you in the head.

Now you're pissed off because I posted an article from a very reliable well known source. Judging by your response, you barely read the thing. And your argument is stupid that foreigners offset what they use in government funding. It's as ridiculous as Piglosi's argument that welfare and unemployment benefits stimulate the economy.

I think you are a joke. I quoted your silly article and it says, basically, you're too moronic to understand it so take their word for it.

If you think I'm a leftist, it's more proof you are not qualified to be in this kind of discussion.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What a difference a day makes. Benjamin Franklin once said something to the effect that those who would give up essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety deserved neither Liberty NOR Safety.

So who's giving up liberty? Build a wall and I won't lose a speck of liberty.

It's ridiculous to try and have a sane conversation with a madman. So you really think suspending the Constitution in order to enforce your dumb ass wall is not a threat to your Liberty?

Who are you going to try and make believe that? Me or you?

You're not suspending anything. We Americans have the right to have a secure border and to permit (or deny) foreigners of entry by wall or any means. It's been going on for generations.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

They're not forbidden for their anchor babies and yes the government reimburses hospitals about 4 billion a year to treat illegal aliens. And what do you think it costs the country for jails, prisons, schooling, property damage in auto accidents, courts (State, local and federal). Then you have property theft, identity theft, murder, kidnapping, assault, rape and various other crimes, none are free to their victims. And the lists go on and on, 100 billion a year is a conservative estimate.

Oh I forgot border and interior law enforcement to round those suckers up, then it costs almost 12,000 each to deport them.

.

The first time I ever heard the allegation that the children of undocumented parents "cost" taxpayers, I went to the hospital and spoke to a woman quoted in the article used to prove the allegation.

The lady I spoke to was Paula Martin. Remember, I spoke to her in person, face to face. When presented with the article, she told me that the taxpayers do NOT reimburse the hospital for any INDIGENT patient. When those who hate the foreigners revised the story, they lied again. Instead of admitting this, the next time the right commented on it, they said:

"The Gwinnett (GA.) Hospital System expects more illegal immigrants will present themselves for urgent care this year and has established a $34 million reserve to cover its outlay."

The Social Contract - Illegal Aliens - The Health Cost Dimension

The $34 million dollar set aside is for INDIGENT patients, not undocumented foreigners. Do undocumented foreigners represent some of those? Yes, they do. But, there are people like the homeless and the downright lazy who avail themselves of this set aside. I have a worthless POS relative (by marriage) that is on the hook to that hospital for $54,000 right now.

So, how do the hospitals generate this $34 million dollars?

Most of the money is generated from uninsured people who pay for their services. And the bad part for those who don't like the undocumented, they pay into that amount as well. They do so because if they pay their income taxes via an Individual Tax Identification Number and keep their bills paid up, they are the first to be considered when amnesties roll around.

Additionally, the undocumented use the hospital for their primary care. And, as long as they pay on their bill, they can continue to use the hospital for routine services.

So, I know, for a fact, you're peddling a lie here. Why do you REALLY not want undocumented foreigners to come here?

How American Citizens Finance $18.5 Billion In Health Care For Unauthorized Immigrants

OMG, Ray. First you have an article that claims $2 Billion dollars. I find another that says $4 Billion dollars. Now we're up to $18.5 Billion dollars. Let me quote something from your article:

"Medicare DSH Payments. In a similar fashion, although the formula is much more complicated, Medicare also pays hospitals a DSH payment that effectively serves as a general subsidy to offset aggregate uncompensated care losses without making any distinction between uncompensated costs generated by unauthorized immigrants and those generated by American citizens or legal immigrants."

Translated into English, the general public is too stupid to understand the partisan figures so they devise "formulas" that we're not supposed to understand.

Instead of trying to enlighten me with these idiotic articles, see if you can spend your day finding out the truth.

Where do your Rights come from?

Do some research on your article and show me the amount those undocumented foreigners contribute to offset the alleged cost.

This is really idiotic Ray. There are a finite number of people here reading this. You guys that want a border wall parrot the trash that was put together by white supremacists. I'm not condemning you for that.

What I'm saying is that you cannot build your philosophy on lies to the point that you can no longer distinguish between reality and propaganda. Today, I'd like to see something NEW from you. You see, I'm more to the right than you because I am a constitutionalist.

When you bring debunked B.S. to the table every day, we cannot use it to persuade those who have stayed isolated from this issue and are just learning. When they do a little research, your facts don't hold up and if you're honest - ever since Trump has been put in charge, public opinion has swung left. No politician has jumped parties to be on Trump's side. Some office holders have left the Republican Party to become Democrats. The House of Representatives is indicative of the fact that what you're doing isn't working.

Can you answer my questions Ray? Can you tell us where you get your Rights from? Can you give us a legitimate reason you're so opposed to foreigners?

Don't try to pee down my neck and tell me it's raining. If it were an issue like the Medicare / Medicaid stuff, you will find it easier to make it harder for undocumented foreigners to get the benefits and privileges of citizenship rather than transform America into a third world socialist cesspool.

I gave you several reasons I'm opposed to these foreigners, but YOU LEFTISTS put your hands against your ears and sing aloud. You people have a tendency to do that when the truth smacks you in the head.

Now you're pissed off because I posted an article from a very reliable well known source. Judging by your response, you barely read the thing. And your argument is stupid that foreigners offset what they use in government funding. It's as ridiculous as Piglosi's argument that welfare and unemployment benefits stimulate the economy.

I think you are a joke. I quoted your silly article and it says, basically, you're too moronic to understand it so take their word for it.

If you think I'm a leftist, it's more proof you are not qualified to be in this kind of discussion.

You are certainly taking a leftist position. If it walks like a duck.......quacks like a duck.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

the wall makes us safe from crime. i'm not saying it makes us safe economically but it ultimately does when you think about it

How? I just don't see it. Criminals are resourceful. I seriously doubt a fence/wall will be more than an inconvenience.

The point of the wall is to stop the flow of Mexican labor, not to thwart crime.

Only Mexican labor that comes in illegally. Yes, that's what it's supposed to stop.

So let's drop the pretense that this is about criminals and rapists, mkay?

How did that lowlife get into California to kill that police officer?

The wall is about all matters of concern: the illegals, the criminals, the illegal narcotics, the diseases, all of it.

One minute you're all about making this a drug issue and then changing the goal posts to argue it again. WTH???

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Can you stop whining about the left long enough to make a sane argument? No, you can't.

How can I? It's a left vs right issue.

It's just getting old hearing each party justify shitty policies "because the other side". It's just like arguing with liberals about ACA. When they are forced to admit that ACA was a sellout to the insurance industry, they blame it on the Republicans - even though exactly no Republicans voted for it.

Likewise, when your wall horseshit is shown to be nothing more than protectionist trade policy lathered up in fear mongering, you blame it on the left, or point out all the horrible things the left has done as if to justify the horrible things you want to do.

If we don't do something to bust up the stranglehold of the two-party system, your partisan pissing match is going to flush the whole country down the toilet.

Do you deny that this is mostly on partisan lines? If you can tell me that people in both parties feel differently, then show me that evidence. But thus far, I've yet to see a lefty in support of Trump or border security for that matter. Everybody on the left doesn't want the wall. Everybody on the right does. After all, the wall issue is what won Trump the presidency.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The first time I ever heard the allegation that the children of undocumented parents "cost" taxpayers, I went to the hospital and spoke to a woman quoted in the article used to prove the allegation.

The lady I spoke to was Paula Martin. Remember, I spoke to her in person, face to face. When presented with the article, she told me that the taxpayers do NOT reimburse the hospital for any INDIGENT patient. When those who hate the foreigners revised the story, they lied again. Instead of admitting this, the next time the right commented on it, they said:

"The Gwinnett (GA.) Hospital System expects more illegal immigrants will present themselves for urgent care this year and has established a $34 million reserve to cover its outlay."

The Social Contract - Illegal Aliens - The Health Cost Dimension

The $34 million dollar set aside is for INDIGENT patients, not undocumented foreigners. Do undocumented foreigners represent some of those? Yes, they do. But, there are people like the homeless and the downright lazy who avail themselves of this set aside. I have a worthless POS relative (by marriage) that is on the hook to that hospital for $54,000 right now.

So, how do the hospitals generate this $34 million dollars?

Most of the money is generated from uninsured people who pay for their services. And the bad part for those who don't like the undocumented, they pay into that amount as well. They do so because if they pay their income taxes via an Individual Tax Identification Number and keep their bills paid up, they are the first to be considered when amnesties roll around.

Additionally, the undocumented use the hospital for their primary care. And, as long as they pay on their bill, they can continue to use the hospital for routine services.

So, I know, for a fact, you're peddling a lie here. Why do you REALLY not want undocumented foreigners to come here?

How American Citizens Finance $18.5 Billion In Health Care For Unauthorized Immigrants

OMG, Ray. First you have an article that claims $2 Billion dollars. I find another that says $4 Billion dollars. Now we're up to $18.5 Billion dollars. Let me quote something from your article:

"Medicare DSH Payments. In a similar fashion, although the formula is much more complicated, Medicare also pays hospitals a DSH payment that effectively serves as a general subsidy to offset aggregate uncompensated care losses without making any distinction between uncompensated costs generated by unauthorized immigrants and those generated by American citizens or legal immigrants."

Translated into English, the general public is too stupid to understand the partisan figures so they devise "formulas" that we're not supposed to understand.

Instead of trying to enlighten me with these idiotic articles, see if you can spend your day finding out the truth.

Where do your Rights come from?

Do some research on your article and show me the amount those undocumented foreigners contribute to offset the alleged cost.

This is really idiotic Ray. There are a finite number of people here reading this. You guys that want a border wall parrot the trash that was put together by white supremacists. I'm not condemning you for that.

What I'm saying is that you cannot build your philosophy on lies to the point that you can no longer distinguish between reality and propaganda. Today, I'd like to see something NEW from you. You see, I'm more to the right than you because I am a constitutionalist.

When you bring debunked B.S. to the table every day, we cannot use it to persuade those who have stayed isolated from this issue and are just learning. When they do a little research, your facts don't hold up and if you're honest - ever since Trump has been put in charge, public opinion has swung left. No politician has jumped parties to be on Trump's side. Some office holders have left the Republican Party to become Democrats. The House of Representatives is indicative of the fact that what you're doing isn't working.

Can you answer my questions Ray? Can you tell us where you get your Rights from? Can you give us a legitimate reason you're so opposed to foreigners?

Don't try to pee down my neck and tell me it's raining. If it were an issue like the Medicare / Medicaid stuff, you will find it easier to make it harder for undocumented foreigners to get the benefits and privileges of citizenship rather than transform America into a third world socialist cesspool.

I gave you several reasons I'm opposed to these foreigners, but YOU LEFTISTS put your hands against your ears and sing aloud. You people have a tendency to do that when the truth smacks you in the head.

Now you're pissed off because I posted an article from a very reliable well known source. Judging by your response, you barely read the thing. And your argument is stupid that foreigners offset what they use in government funding. It's as ridiculous as Piglosi's argument that welfare and unemployment benefits stimulate the economy.

I think you are a joke. I quoted your silly article and it says, basically, you're too moronic to understand it so take their word for it.

If you think I'm a leftist, it's more proof you are not qualified to be in this kind of discussion.

You are certainly taking a leftist position. If it walks like a duck.......quacks like a duck.

In order to take a leftist position, you have to offer a leftist solution. Pointing out the holes in your theories and asking you questions in a quest for the truth has nothing with left or right.

Your deflections point to the fact you KNOW you're pushing swill. The fact that you rehash the same crap day after day is indicative of your desperation. Your inability to answer simple questions reveal enough about you that other civil libertarians have impeached your posts and exposed the FACT that you are the bottle what calls the kettle black.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Yes, the government is the people. We elect representatives to carry out our will. And don't try that "progressive" guilt trip on me. It is YOU that are on the side of progressives--not me.

And we conservatives have the same right not to share our property with anybody.

I am struggling to understand your argument.

We elect representatives to carry out our will. When California opts to have Sanctuary Cities, I feel the people of California have spoken, don't you?

If the state of California cannot afford the people they bring in, then it becomes our business if the state of California is relying on federal funds to wine and dine their foreign guests. Then I'd have a dog in the fight. BTW, some of the things you presume may be the law where you live, but certainly not in every jurisdiction.

One of the most effective ploys by those attempting to vilify undocumented immigrants is to assert that those immigrants are stealing benefits from Americans. Donald Trump has deployed this falsehood over and over and has even promised a law to stop. The fact is there's already is law. In was passed in 1996.

Federal dollars for the following social services are expressed forbidden by federal law:

• Children’s Health Insurance (CHIP)
  
  
• Disability, aka Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
  
  
• Food stamps, aka The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)
  
  
• Health insurance, aka insurance via the Affordable Care Act (ACA)
  
  
• Medicaid
  
  
• Medicare
  
  
• Social Security
  
  
• Welfare

Not only are undocumented immigrants barred from these benefits, legal immigrants are also barred for 7 years.

Depending on the state federal dollars can be used for the following under certain circumstances:

• Emergency medical care, including ER visits and Emergency Medicaid
  
  
• Schooling
  
  
• Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children (WIC)

In spite of the facts, there are a constant stream of claims of billion and hundreds of billions of dollars being spent on illegal immigrants. States can of course fund programs that benefit undocumented immigrants but they can't use federal dollars.

No, Undocumented Immigrants Aren't Stealing Your Benefits | HuffPost

They're not forbidden for their anchor babies and yes the government reimburses hospitals about 4 billion a year to treat illegal aliens. And what do you think it costs the country for jails, prisons, schooling, property damage in auto accidents, courts (State, local and federal). Then you have property theft, identity theft, murder, kidnapping, assault, rape and various other crimes, none are free to their victims. And the lists go on and on, 100 billion a year is a conservative estimate.

Oh I forgot border and interior law enforcement to round those suckers up, then it costs almost 12,000 each to deport them.

.

The first time I ever heard the allegation that the children of undocumented parents "cost" taxpayers, I went to the hospital and spoke to a woman quoted in the article used to prove the allegation.

The lady I spoke to was Paula Martin. Remember, I spoke to her in person, face to face. When presented with the article, she told me that the taxpayers do NOT reimburse the hospital for any INDIGENT patient. When those who hate the foreigners revised the story, they lied again. Instead of admitting this, the next time the right commented on it, they said:

"The Gwinnett (GA.) Hospital System expects more illegal immigrants will present themselves for urgent care this year and has established a $34 million reserve to cover its outlay."

The Social Contract - Illegal Aliens - The Health Cost Dimension

The $34 million dollar set aside is for INDIGENT patients, not undocumented foreigners. Do undocumented foreigners represent some of those? Yes, they do. But, there are people like the homeless and the downright lazy who avail themselves of this set aside. I have a worthless POS relative (by marriage) that is on the hook to that hospital for $54,000 right now.

So, how do the hospitals generate this $34 million dollars?

Most of the money is generated from uninsured people who pay for their services. And the bad part for those who don't like the undocumented, they pay into that amount as well. They do so because if they pay their income taxes via an Individual Tax Identification Number and keep their bills paid up, they are the first to be considered when amnesties roll around.

Additionally, the undocumented use the hospital for their primary care. And, as long as they pay on their bill, they can continue to use the hospital for routine services.

So, I know, for a fact, you're peddling a lie here. Why do you REALLY not want undocumented foreigners to come here?

Medicaid Helps Hospitals Pay For Illegal Immigrants’ Care

.

"The lion’s share goes to reimburse hospitals for delivering babies for women who show up in their emergency rooms, according to interviews with hospital officials and studies."

That is a direct quote from your article. Your point?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

the wall makes us safe from crime. i'm not saying it makes us safe economically but it ultimately does when you think about it

How? I just don't see it. Criminals are resourceful. I seriously doubt a fence/wall will be more than an inconvenience.

The point of the wall is to stop the flow of Mexican labor, not to thwart crime.

Only Mexican labor that comes in illegally. Yes, that's what it's supposed to stop.

So let's drop the pretense that this is about criminals and rapists, mkay?

How did that lowlife get into California to kill that police officer?

The wall is about all matters of concern: the illegals, the criminals, the illegal narcotics, the diseases, all of it.

One minute you're all about making this a drug issue and then changing the goal posts to argue it again. WTH???

Discussing the drug issue does not make it my only concern. My concerns listed (and more) are what you are responding to. Illegal immigration is bad for our country on every level--not just the drug level. These people are taking American jobs, keeping American wages lower, forcing us into becoming a bilingual nation, and giving Democrats the path of a total government control. The faster they make whites a minority, the faster that dominance will take place, and you have zero problem with that.

 

[dblack]

Can you stop whining about the left long enough to make a sane argument? No, you can't.

How can I? It's a left vs right issue.

It's just getting old hearing each party justify shitty policies "because the other side". It's just like arguing with liberals about ACA. When they are forced to admit that ACA was a sellout to the insurance industry, they blame it on the Republicans - even though exactly no Republicans voted for it.

Likewise, when your wall horseshit is shown to be nothing more than protectionist trade policy lathered up in fear mongering, you blame it on the left, or point out all the horrible things the left has done as if to justify the horrible things you want to do.

If we don't do something to bust up the stranglehold of the two-party system, your partisan pissing match is going to flush the whole country down the toilet.

Do you deny that this is mostly on partisan lines? If you can tell me that people in both parties feel differently, then show me that evidence. But thus far, I've yet to see a lefty in support of Trump or border security for that matter. Everybody on the left doesn't want the wall. Everybody on the right does. After all, the wall issue is what won Trump the presidency.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

One of the most effective ploys by those attempting to vilify undocumented immigrants is to assert that those immigrants are stealing benefits from Americans. Donald Trump has deployed this falsehood over and over and has even promised a law to stop. The fact is there's already is law. In was passed in 1996.

Federal dollars for the following social services are expressed forbidden by federal law:

• Children’s Health Insurance (CHIP)
  
  
• Disability, aka Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
  
  
• Food stamps, aka The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)
  
  
• Health insurance, aka insurance via the Affordable Care Act (ACA)
  
  
• Medicaid
  
  
• Medicare
  
  
• Social Security
  
  
• Welfare

Not only are undocumented immigrants barred from these benefits, legal immigrants are also barred for 7 years.

Depending on the state federal dollars can be used for the following under certain circumstances:

• Emergency medical care, including ER visits and Emergency Medicaid
  
  
• Schooling
  
  
• Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children (WIC)

In spite of the facts, there are a constant stream of claims of billion and hundreds of billions of dollars being spent on illegal immigrants. States can of course fund programs that benefit undocumented immigrants but they can't use federal dollars.

No, Undocumented Immigrants Aren't Stealing Your Benefits | HuffPost

They can have an anchor baby and collect those benefits for their kid, thus bypassing that problem.

Did you know there is no such thing as an anchor baby and the U.S. only gives benefits to the American born "citizen?" BTW, you know who passed the law that made those people citizens?

Hint: It was NOT the Democrats AND they did it illegally.

Wrong again, it was the courts that bastardized the 14th.

.

The 14th Amendment was illegally ratified and if ignorant people like you had stayed at home or got educated before you got in the fight, the patriot community was taking the 14th Amendment off the table. We could have won that issue over a decade ago.

Yeah, take that argument to court, I'm sure you'll be as successful there as you are here. LMAO

.

That is a great deflection being that your side has made a false claim about the 14th Amendment and proven wrong for over a decade and a half.

The FACT is, the patriots working on that issue before the wall issue got introduced WERE WINNING.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You know me better than that. If you have something to say, spit it out. Don't expect me to do your work for you.

I've said enough to prove you're nothing but a long winded troll and only took 3 short posts.

.

As usual, you like to play mind games, prove nothing and make accusations that sound more like projection. I don't speak cryptic and if you see a troll, it's the one you see in your mirror.

Do you have anything relevant to say about this subject OR are you just trying to prove that nobody can out - troll you?

Maybe you should have an adult explain my responses to your ridiculous rants. A constitutional amendment to give congress the power over immigration, indeed. ROFLMFAO

.

That criticism was a blatant lie. Do you have ANY capacity for the truth?

Really?

What Amendment changed that?

.

You delight in spewing swill and not being able to back it up. You should laugh at yourself for pretending you're smarter than all the other posters on this board.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

How American Citizens Finance $18.5 Billion In Health Care For Unauthorized Immigrants

OMG, Ray. First you have an article that claims $2 Billion dollars. I find another that says $4 Billion dollars. Now we're up to $18.5 Billion dollars. Let me quote something from your article:

"Medicare DSH Payments. In a similar fashion, although the formula is much more complicated, Medicare also pays hospitals a DSH payment that effectively serves as a general subsidy to offset aggregate uncompensated care losses without making any distinction between uncompensated costs generated by unauthorized immigrants and those generated by American citizens or legal immigrants."

Translated into English, the general public is too stupid to understand the partisan figures so they devise "formulas" that we're not supposed to understand.

Instead of trying to enlighten me with these idiotic articles, see if you can spend your day finding out the truth.

Where do your Rights come from?

Do some research on your article and show me the amount those undocumented foreigners contribute to offset the alleged cost.

This is really idiotic Ray. There are a finite number of people here reading this. You guys that want a border wall parrot the trash that was put together by white supremacists. I'm not condemning you for that.

What I'm saying is that you cannot build your philosophy on lies to the point that you can no longer distinguish between reality and propaganda. Today, I'd like to see something NEW from you. You see, I'm more to the right than you because I am a constitutionalist.

When you bring debunked B.S. to the table every day, we cannot use it to persuade those who have stayed isolated from this issue and are just learning. When they do a little research, your facts don't hold up and if you're honest - ever since Trump has been put in charge, public opinion has swung left. No politician has jumped parties to be on Trump's side. Some office holders have left the Republican Party to become Democrats. The House of Representatives is indicative of the fact that what you're doing isn't working.

Can you answer my questions Ray? Can you tell us where you get your Rights from? Can you give us a legitimate reason you're so opposed to foreigners?

Don't try to pee down my neck and tell me it's raining. If it were an issue like the Medicare / Medicaid stuff, you will find it easier to make it harder for undocumented foreigners to get the benefits and privileges of citizenship rather than transform America into a third world socialist cesspool.

I gave you several reasons I'm opposed to these foreigners, but YOU LEFTISTS put your hands against your ears and sing aloud. You people have a tendency to do that when the truth smacks you in the head.

Now you're pissed off because I posted an article from a very reliable well known source. Judging by your response, you barely read the thing. And your argument is stupid that foreigners offset what they use in government funding. It's as ridiculous as Piglosi's argument that welfare and unemployment benefits stimulate the economy.

I think you are a joke. I quoted your silly article and it says, basically, you're too moronic to understand it so take their word for it.

If you think I'm a leftist, it's more proof you are not qualified to be in this kind of discussion.

You are certainly taking a leftist position. If it walks like a duck.......quacks like a duck.

In order to take a leftist position, you have to offer a leftist solution. Pointing out the holes in your theories and asking you questions in a quest for the truth has nothing with left or right.

Your deflections point to the fact you KNOW you're pushing swill. The fact that you rehash the same crap day after day is indicative of your desperation. Your inability to answer simple questions reveal enough about you that other civil libertarians have impeached your posts and exposed the FACT that you are the bottle what calls the kettle black.

I'm the only one posting crap day after day? Ever reread your posts?

In one breath you say I repeat my position day after day, and in the next one you say I'm moving goal posts. You can't have it both ways.

You did offer leftists solutions: let anybody that wants to come here do just that.

 

[OKTexas]

It’s a waste of money . If the goal is to address illegal immigration, then that money is better spent in other ways .

More ins agents , more immigrantion courts , more judges . More enforcement vs companies who hire illegals . That’s a better use if the money .

Keep illegals from coming in without proper permission. We don’t need the rest. That’s better use of money. Less crime, less money spent to support non tax payers. And libs piss away more money for foreign aid, than is spent on legitimate tax paying citizens. The libs are just trying to block Don from keeping campaigning promises that will benefit our citizens and economy. They will give everything away for free, and raise taxes to pay for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Facts to substantiate this?

You are calling people "illegals" before they come here. So, you reject the notion of innocent until proven guilty?

When you apply to come in and follow the protocol, you are involved in a legal procedure. When you walk in a caravan, and are going in not matter what, you are illegal. There are people in the legal process of entry. Cut the line next time at the movies, a restaurant, or grocery store, and advise us of the outcome. If the legal process is followed, we don’t need to spend money on people to enforce the rules and laws on people who break them. Whatever anyone’s opinion, the president wants to protect the security of the country and keep law enforcement safe doing it. Americans tax dollars, should mean Americans first. A wall, barrier or whatever you want to call it, is just part of this. Cameras, drones, computer systems, access roads, vehicles, and personnel to make it work are the rest of the process. Want a fence between your neighbors house, you are done. This isn’t anything like that. And the money he’s asking to be approved isn’t out of line. All those against this, have supported it in the past. They want to show him up, at the cost of keeping our country safe. Hypocrisy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I, for one, have NEVER thought that putting America under surveillance 24 / 7 / 365 is a good idea. For FIFTEEN YEARS, those in favor of the wall have denied that the Democrats were for it first. Now, they are admitting it.

What a difference a day makes. Benjamin Franklin once said something to the effect that those who would give up essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety deserved neither Liberty NOR Safety.

That is the very argument the build the wall supporters are conveying on this thread. So, unless they can conjure up some legitimate reason to maintain their stance, they are arguing against Liberty and they are the REAL problem in America.

Agree to disagree. We are not putting America on surveillance, just the borders. Obviously an issue of national security currently. No one is saying put cameras on your home or mine. But, go anywhere in our country and you have been recorded for posterity. This does actually solve a lot of crime throughout the country. If you think we have a lot of surveillance here, England for example is that much more. This is a done deal, and not going anywhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No need for the government to place microphones and cameras in people homes, too many are doing it themselves. All these digital assistance and wireless security systems opens up every one that uses them to in home surveillance.

.

 

[Butch_Coolidge]

Keep illegals from coming in without proper permission. We don’t need the rest. That’s better use of money. Less crime, less money spent to support non tax payers. And libs piss away more money for foreign aid, than is spent on legitimate tax paying citizens. The libs are just trying to block Don from keeping campaigning promises that will benefit our citizens and economy. They will give everything away for free, and raise taxes to pay for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Facts to substantiate this?

You are calling people "illegals" before they come here. So, you reject the notion of innocent until proven guilty?

When you apply to come in and follow the protocol, you are involved in a legal procedure. When you walk in a caravan, and are going in not matter what, you are illegal. There are people in the legal process of entry. Cut the line next time at the movies, a restaurant, or grocery store, and advise us of the outcome. If the legal process is followed, we don’t need to spend money on people to enforce the rules and laws on people who break them. Whatever anyone’s opinion, the president wants to protect the security of the country and keep law enforcement safe doing it. Americans tax dollars, should mean Americans first. A wall, barrier or whatever you want to call it, is just part of this. Cameras, drones, computer systems, access roads, vehicles, and personnel to make it work are the rest of the process. Want a fence between your neighbors house, you are done. This isn’t anything like that. And the money he’s asking to be approved isn’t out of line. All those against this, have supported it in the past. They want to show him up, at the cost of keeping our country safe. Hypocrisy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I, for one, have NEVER thought that putting America under surveillance 24 / 7 / 365 is a good idea. For FIFTEEN YEARS, those in favor of the wall have denied that the Democrats were for it first. Now, they are admitting it.

What a difference a day makes. Benjamin Franklin once said something to the effect that those who would give up essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety deserved neither Liberty NOR Safety.

That is the very argument the build the wall supporters are conveying on this thread. So, unless they can conjure up some legitimate reason to maintain their stance, they are arguing against Liberty and they are the REAL problem in America.

Agree to disagree. We are not putting America on surveillance, just the borders. Obviously an issue of national security currently. No one is saying put cameras on your home or mine. But, go anywhere in our country and you have been recorded for posterity. This does actually solve a lot of crime throughout the country. If you think we have a lot of surveillance here, England for example is that much more. This is a done deal, and not going anywhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are arguing against common sense in legal technicalities. Since the border wall people argue this is a legal issue (Trump is wisely calling it a National Security issue) you don't know how the precedent will be used.

As I have pointed out repeatedly, the same court decision used to keep the feds from forcing local police into enforcing the Brady Bill is the same decision that saved Sanctuary Cities.

Giving the feds more tools to put you under surveillance is pure madness. BTW, that damn 14th Amendment some of those who agree with you want to save will be the issue (equal protection of the laws) that will enhance government surveillance on you.

It should be used for security at the border, unlike how Obama used it. I’m talking about a system that monitors the border. I’m sure you and I are tracked everywhere we go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Porter Rockwell]

How? I just don't see it. Criminals are resourceful. I seriously doubt a fence/wall will be more than an inconvenience.

The point of the wall is to stop the flow of Mexican labor, not to thwart crime.

Only Mexican labor that comes in illegally. Yes, that's what it's supposed to stop.

So let's drop the pretense that this is about criminals and rapists, mkay?

How did that lowlife get into California to kill that police officer?

The wall is about all matters of concern: the illegals, the criminals, the illegal narcotics, the diseases, all of it.

One minute you're all about making this a drug issue and then changing the goal posts to argue it again. WTH???

Discussing the drug issue does not make it my only concern. My concerns listed (and more) are what you are responding to. Illegal immigration is bad for our country on every level--not just the drug level. These people are taking American jobs, keeping American wages lower, forcing us into becoming a bilingual nation, and giving Democrats the path of a total government control. The faster they make whites a minority, the faster that dominance will take place, and you have zero problem with that.

You are on both sides of the drug issue depending upon whether we're talking facts that support your cause OR negate it. You should pick a side on that and stay there. You're doing more to discredit yourself on that than you're doing to help yourself over-all.

Nobody can take your job unless you owned it to begin with. So YOU are making a leftist argument.

You have not proven that the current situation keeps wages lower. In FACT, wages are at an all time high and there are plenty of jobs.

The path you've chosen has guaranteed an end to our culture, our foundational principles (which you CLEARLY do not understand) and, consequently, an end to the white race.

There are two important questions that those who advocate for a border wall have never asked me. It would blow their entire case apart IF they had the ability to read the response. You're so wrapped up in parroting the border wall talking points, you will never think to ask questions.

The fact that you won't answer my questions proves, unequivocally, you realize that you're not in a good enough position to believe in the B.S. you promote here every day. You think they are trick questions.

Where do you get your Rights from? Don't give me a laundry list, but tell me why you REALLY want a wall.

 

[danielpalos]

Yes, the government is the people. We elect representatives to carry out our will. And don't try that "progressive" guilt trip on me. It is YOU that are on the side of progressives--not me.

And we conservatives have the same right not to share our property with anybody.

I am struggling to understand your argument.

We elect representatives to carry out our will. When California opts to have Sanctuary Cities, I feel the people of California have spoken, don't you?

If the state of California cannot afford the people they bring in, then it becomes our business if the state of California is relying on federal funds to wine and dine their foreign guests. Then I'd have a dog in the fight. BTW, some of the things you presume may be the law where you live, but certainly not in every jurisdiction.

One of the most effective ploys by those attempting to vilify undocumented immigrants is to assert that those immigrants are stealing benefits from Americans. Donald Trump has deployed this falsehood over and over and has even promised a law to stop. The fact is there's already is law. In was passed in 1996.

Federal dollars for the following social services are expressed forbidden by federal law:

• Children’s Health Insurance (CHIP)
  
  
• Disability, aka Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
  
  
• Food stamps, aka The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)
  
  
• Health insurance, aka insurance via the Affordable Care Act (ACA)
  
  
• Medicaid
  
  
• Medicare
  
  
• Social Security
  
  
• Welfare

Not only are undocumented immigrants barred from these benefits, legal immigrants are also barred for 7 years.

Depending on the state federal dollars can be used for the following under certain circumstances:

• Emergency medical care, including ER visits and Emergency Medicaid
  
  
• Schooling
  
  
• Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children (WIC)

In spite of the facts, there are a constant stream of claims of billion and hundreds of billions of dollars being spent on illegal immigrants. States can of course fund programs that benefit undocumented immigrants but they can't use federal dollars.

No, Undocumented Immigrants Aren't Stealing Your Benefits | HuffPost

They're not forbidden for their anchor babies and yes the government reimburses hospitals about 4 billion a year to treat illegal aliens. And what do you think it costs the country for jails, prisons, schooling, property damage in auto accidents, courts (State, local and federal). Then you have property theft, identity theft, murder, kidnapping, assault, rape and various other crimes, none are free to their victims. And the lists go on and on, 100 billion a year is a conservative estimate.

Oh I forgot border and interior law enforcement to round those suckers up, then it costs almost 12,000 each to deport them.

.

The first time I ever heard the allegation that the children of undocumented parents "cost" taxpayers, I went to the hospital and spoke to a woman quoted in the article used to prove the allegation.

The lady I spoke to was Paula Martin. Remember, I spoke to her in person, face to face. When presented with the article, she told me that the taxpayers do NOT reimburse the hospital for any INDIGENT patient. When those who hate the foreigners revised the story, they lied again. Instead of admitting this, the next time the right commented on it, they said:

"The Gwinnett (GA.) Hospital System expects more illegal immigrants will present themselves for urgent care this year and has established a $34 million reserve to cover its outlay."

The Social Contract - Illegal Aliens - The Health Cost Dimension

The $34 million dollar set aside is for INDIGENT patients, not undocumented foreigners. Do undocumented foreigners represent some of those? Yes, they do. But, there are people like the homeless and the downright lazy who avail themselves of this set aside. I have a worthless POS relative (by marriage) that is on the hook to that hospital for $54,000 right now.

So, how do the hospitals generate this $34 million dollars?

Most of the money is generated from uninsured people who pay for their services. And the bad part for those who don't like the undocumented, they pay into that amount as well. They do so because if they pay their income taxes via an Individual Tax Identification Number and keep their bills paid up, they are the first to be considered when amnesties roll around.

Additionally, the undocumented use the hospital for their primary care. And, as long as they pay on their bill, they can continue to use the hospital for routine services.

So, I know, for a fact, you're peddling a lie here. Why do you REALLY not want undocumented foreigners to come here?

Medicaid Helps Hospitals Pay For Illegal Immigrants’ Care

.

Our war on drugs destabilizes entire governments and creates refugees.

 

[Butch_Coolidge]

Keep illegals from coming in without proper permission. We don’t need the rest. That’s better use of money. Less crime, less money spent to support non tax payers. And libs piss away more money for foreign aid, than is spent on legitimate tax paying citizens. The libs are just trying to block Don from keeping campaigning promises that will benefit our citizens and economy. They will give everything away for free, and raise taxes to pay for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Facts to substantiate this?

You are calling people "illegals" before they come here. So, you reject the notion of innocent until proven guilty?

When you apply to come in and follow the protocol, you are involved in a legal procedure. When you walk in a caravan, and are going in not matter what, you are illegal. There are people in the legal process of entry. Cut the line next time at the movies, a restaurant, or grocery store, and advise us of the outcome. If the legal process is followed, we don’t need to spend money on people to enforce the rules and laws on people who break them. Whatever anyone’s opinion, the president wants to protect the security of the country and keep law enforcement safe doing it. Americans tax dollars, should mean Americans first. A wall, barrier or whatever you want to call it, is just part of this. Cameras, drones, computer systems, access roads, vehicles, and personnel to make it work are the rest of the process. Want a fence between your neighbors house, you are done. This isn’t anything like that. And the money he’s asking to be approved isn’t out of line. All those against this, have supported it in the past. They want to show him up, at the cost of keeping our country safe. Hypocrisy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I, for one, have NEVER thought that putting America under surveillance 24 / 7 / 365 is a good idea. For FIFTEEN YEARS, those in favor of the wall have denied that the Democrats were for it first. Now, they are admitting it.

What a difference a day makes. Benjamin Franklin once said something to the effect that those who would give up essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety deserved neither Liberty NOR Safety.

That is the very argument the build the wall supporters are conveying on this thread. So, unless they can conjure up some legitimate reason to maintain their stance, they are arguing against Liberty and they are the REAL problem in America.

Agree to disagree. We are not putting America on surveillance, just the borders. Obviously an issue of national security currently. No one is saying put cameras on your home or mine. But, go anywhere in our country and you have been recorded for posterity. This does actually solve a lot of crime throughout the country. If you think we have a lot of surveillance here, England for example is that much more. This is a done deal, and not going anywhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No need for the government to place microphones and cameras in people homes, too many are doing it themselves. All these digital assistance and wireless security systems opens up every one that uses them to in home surveillance.

.

Never mentioned someone’s home, or said I agreed with that. I would never have those stupid devices in my house. Just talking about the border, and stating that they exist more than we are aware.


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