Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[Porter Rockwell]

Sure, for 18 centuries our forefathers just couldn't come up with drones......Also, ask the Israelis how many tunnels have been dug under THEIR wall......lol

I can dig a tunnel under a drone even easier. Or just walk past it. Or shoot the drone down. Have any idea what a good drone costs? Who's going to fly it? Refuel it? Monitor its camera? Or camouflage myself so the drone doesn't see me. With a wall, people are stopped, The few that try to get over or under are picked up by cameras or drones, or vibration sensors or patrols, but someone still has to monitor all that. And they still have to get to the action. By the time your drone sees me and you get there, I'm LONG GONE buddy! At least with the wall, I was greatly slowed down giving you time to respond.

Gee, you act like they will be putting the wall in your backyard! Last I checked, most people along the border WANT the wall. And it can be easily paid for by simply collecting the fines every illegal is due us. According to my math, that comes to 53 billion dollars.

Poll: Majority opposes border wall with Mexico

So, is America a Republic or a Democracy?

Enough Americans voted for the wall to put Trump in office along with a butt load of congresscritters in 2016.

.

That was three years ago.

It was TWO years ago, and about two months,. Just a little off in your math. Now Trump votes of just TWO years ago no longer matter, but don't EVER expect the Left to stop trying to shove a video of Trump bragging and trying to impress some guy about what a babe magnet he was from FOURTEEN years ago! At least we KNOW the votes REALLY HAPPENED.

Irrelevant. Public opinion went against the wall after Trump was elected.

 

[eagle1462010]

U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 9

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight

OMG. Are you kidding? That was tried once today. The rest of the article deals with a ten dollar tax per person after 1808. One only need to look at the year in which they Chy Lung decision was laid down to see that.

The US Constitution gives a general “OUTLINE” .. if you prefer “ bullet statements” ... regarding each branch of government. In this case, it surrounds the role of the legislative branch, and the authority of Congress. If you NOW want to change the subject to interpretation and original intent, we can talk about the 14th Amendment.

I’m willing to bet you wont be able to establish much surrounding your point of view, without actually taking the time to do the actual research on this subject, as I have.

You're probably right. I've only been involved in court cases surrounding the 14th Amendment for 35 or so years and have written maybe 250 court briefs on the topic. I'm sure you have much more extensive experience. Virtually all you build the wall guys do.

Realizing, of course, that 99% of legislation is agenda driven by committees and sub-committees and sub-sub-committees.

Most law is not made in the legislatures.

I laughed but you are correct..............Judicial Activism..........and executive branches reinterpreting the law for new regulations..............and EO's changing it.........

DACA and the Dreamers were done via EO"s..........not through Congress as in the Constitution..........then Obama and company created Slush funds to defend them...........via fees from legal immigration..........imagine that.............Complete abuse of power.

 

[Indeependent]

U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 9

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight

OMG. Are you kidding? That was tried once today. The rest of the article deals with a ten dollar tax per person after 1808. One only need to look at the year in which they Chy Lung decision was laid down to see that.

The US Constitution gives a general “OUTLINE” .. if you prefer “ bullet statements” ... regarding each branch of government. In this case, it surrounds the role of the legislative branch, and the authority of Congress. If you NOW want to change the subject to interpretation and original intent, we can talk about the 14th Amendment.

I’m willing to bet you wont be able to establish much surrounding your point of view, without actually taking the time to do the actual research on this subject, as I have.

You're probably right. I've only been involved in court cases surrounding the 14th Amendment for 35 or so years and have written maybe 250 court briefs on the topic. I'm sure you have much more extensive experience. Virtually all you build the wall guys do.

Realizing, of course, that 99% of legislation is agenda driven by committees and sub-committees and sub-sub-committees.

Most law is not made in the legislatures.

The legislatures take anything you hand them and manipulate it to death.
A friend of mine helped to write the legislation to mandate expiration dates on beverages.

 

[Indeependent]

I can dig a tunnel under a drone even easier. Or just walk past it. Or shoot the drone down. Have any idea what a good drone costs? Who's going to fly it? Refuel it? Monitor its camera? Or camouflage myself so the drone doesn't see me. With a wall, people are stopped, The few that try to get over or under are picked up by cameras or drones, or vibration sensors or patrols, but someone still has to monitor all that. And they still have to get to the action. By the time your drone sees me and you get there, I'm LONG GONE buddy! At least with the wall, I was greatly slowed down giving you time to respond.

Gee, you act like they will be putting the wall in your backyard! Last I checked, most people along the border WANT the wall. And it can be easily paid for by simply collecting the fines every illegal is due us. According to my math, that comes to 53 billion dollars.

Poll: Majority opposes border wall with Mexico

So, is America a Republic or a Democracy?

Enough Americans voted for the wall to put Trump in office along with a butt load of congresscritters in 2016.

.

That was three years ago.

It was TWO years ago, and about two months,. Just a little off in your math. Now Trump votes of just TWO years ago no longer matter, but don't EVER expect the Left to stop trying to shove a video of Trump bragging and trying to impress some guy about what a babe magnet he was from FOURTEEN years ago! At least we KNOW the votes REALLY HAPPENED.

Irrelevant. Public opinion went against the wall after Trump was elected.

You, of course, mean the media that was against Trump breathing from the moment he tossed his hat in the ring.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Sure, for 18 centuries our forefathers just couldn't come up with drones......Also, ask the Israelis how many tunnels have been dug under THEIR wall......lol

I can dig a tunnel under a drone even easier. Or just walk past it. Or shoot the drone down. Have any idea what a good drone costs? Who's going to fly it? Refuel it? Monitor its camera? Or camouflage myself so the drone doesn't see me. With a wall, people are stopped, The few that try to get over or under are picked up by cameras or drones, or vibration sensors or patrols, but someone still has to monitor all that. And they still have to get to the action. By the time your drone sees me and you get there, I'm LONG GONE buddy! At least with the wall, I was greatly slowed down giving you time to respond.

Gee, you act like they will be putting the wall in your backyard! Last I checked, most people along the border WANT the wall. And it can be easily paid for by simply collecting the fines every illegal is due us. According to my math, that comes to 53 billion dollars.

Poll: Majority opposes border wall with Mexico

So, is America a Republic or a Democracy?

Enough Americans voted for the wall to put Trump in office along with a butt load of congresscritters in 2016.

.

They voted for Trump, not a majority but enough. The wall was only one of a dozen reasons for the Trump victory. This is why 51% to 69% of Americans say they either oppose building a wall or say it's not a priority.

Tell the mayor of El Paso that the 3500 illegals being dumped in his lap a week because the courts say we can't hold them, that a wall isn't a priority. And that's just ONE city.

.

Why would you want to hold them?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

They can see me for what they like. That won't make it true. As I told you, there are two questions they've never asked me. Their entire world is, much like yours, if you don't buy the build the wall solution as being the only solution, you're an open borders liberal.

If you can't understand, after I've defined what you told me, that YOU are a liberal Democrat, then you are less intelligent than I ever dreamed. You should do some self introspection and then say, if I want to make a difference in the future of my nation and my culture, MAYBE I should STFU, do some studying, and figure out what this is all about.

You're so hung up on trying to peg me that you have no clue as to where I stand. You even ignore the hints. It's like someone is needed to bash you in the head with a rock before you understand: There are many sides to this issue and most people have serious flaws with their proposed solutions.

Every person arguing for a wall could not convince a jury. The recent turnover in the House of Representatives should tell you how ineffective your position is. In order to win, you'd have to be able to make the other guy's argument for him and do a better job than he does. You don't have a freaking clue as to where I stand and you end up making some of the most idiotic statements known to God or man.

That is why you're in the same boat the followers of Jim Jones were in.

Yes, you gained seats in the House, but lost them in the Senate. And if you bother to look at the results, you'd see that both parties had an outstanding and historical turnout. It's just that the hatred of the Democrats won over. But Trump supporters are still behind him as they were during the presidential election.

Nobody ever said the wall is the sole solution. You are making up that BS in your head. The wall (as border patrol stated) is a very helpful part of the solution. The solution is multi-level. The sole solution would be to get the Congress to pass a law making being here illegally a first degree felony with a minimum five year prison sentence. Then there would be no need for a wall, no need for e-veryfiy, no need for additional border agents, no need to track down illegals here. Most of them would pack up and leave the country.

I know quite well what this is all about--you don't. You remain ignorant of the long term goals by the Democrat party yet support their initiatives and furthermore claim yourself as a conservative.

I have endured your dumbassery long enough. I didn't win a damn thing Ray as I voted Republican. I don't support Democracy - not in name, not by party, not by ideology. YOU DO and I'm sick and tired of your dishonesty so I'll treat you like you treat me.

You have one standard. If someone does not back the silly wall, they are a liberal, etc. THAT is what separates you from others with an IQ higher than their shoe size.

If you had ANY IQ, you would know why Congress can pass no such law as you suggest. My only point to you is that we are restricted by the parameters of the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings in what kind of legislation we an pass.

You have proven to be a fake, a phony, a fraud, and a poseur. YOU adopted Bill Clinton's philosophy and have your head stuck so far up the liberals ass that if they fart, you will choke to death or get your first breath of air.

Now, you've called me a liberal for the last time. Put up, shut up or get ready for a nasty back and forth. Enough of this B.S. You didn't know what an unalienable Right is so you don't have a clue when you advocate withholding one or denying one to someone. You would have to kill me Ray in order to do some of the things you propose. My Rights are unalienable. You cannot take them; you cannot impose on them. To even suggest it shows that YOU ARE NOT EVEN AN AMERICAN.

You should start at post #2806. Read it and then cull through those 500 posts so you can see the number of times you LIED, called me names and tried to deflect when asked direct questions. It's not my fault that the left misled you and made a socialist out of you. Now, you want a discussion or a pissing match?

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

I promised you a response. It takes two parts. Here is the first part, the second one to follow:

Ray, challenging me on a subject you have shown an absolute ignorant and /or disdain of can be very costly. To begin with, the build the wall guys say if you are not for a wall, you are a liberal, lefty, etc. That is absolutely idiotic as we shall see.

The way I view the topic is best described in an analogy. In this analogy a man is stuck in a burning apartment on the third floor of a building (this part of the analogy describes our situation in America.) If this man stays in his current position, he dies. If the man goes out the door, there is a 100 percent chance that he will be killed (that part of the analogy refers to the nutty wall idea.) If he jumps out the window, the fall might kill him, but then again, he might live. That part of the analogy refers to a solution OTHER THAN the nutty wall idea.

I am neither pro-open borders NOR am I anti – closed borders. So, let’s get that understood and make an attempt to be honest. It’s just that a militarized border with a wall around it will not work in the United States.

The REAL cost of the wall is Liberty. So far, no build the wall guy has addressed the issue of Liberty. In the Declaration of Independence, we find these words:

“WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”

Of this document, the Declaration of Independence, the SCOTUS ruled:

The first official action of this nation declared the foundation of government in these words: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. "While such declaration of principles may not have the force of organic law, or be made the basis of judicial decision as to the limits of right and duty, and while in all cases reference must be had to the organic law of the nation for such limits, yet the latter is but the body and the letter of which the former is the thought and the spirit, and it is always safe to read the letter of the Constitution in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. No duty rests more imperatively upon the courts than the enforcement of those constitutional provisions intended to secure that equality of rights which is the foundation of free government." Cotting v. Godard, 183 U.S. 79 (1901)

The Bible is clear about this subject as well:

“Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land Unto All the Inhabitants thereof” Leviticus 25: 10 and this Bible verse can be found on the Liberty Bell at Independence Hall. This Old Testament verse refers to the "Jubilee", or the instructions to the Israelites to return property and free slaves.every 50 years.

In II Timothy 3: 16 we read that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”

Finally, in II Corinthians 3 : 17 we read that:

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.”

But what is Liberty? Well in a biblical sense, liberty means freedom (see # 1865 in the Greek Dictionary of Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. In law, Liberty means Freedom; exemption from extraneous control. …freedom regulated by law. (Black’s Law Dictionary Fifth Edition)

My take on it is very simple:

In New Jersey, they passed a law requiring people to turn in high capacity magazines… this included even off duty police. Nobody complied? Why? People think the law is unconstitutional. The Right to Life and Liberty are unalienable Rights. The Right to keep and bear Arms is an unalienable Right. It is an extension of both a Right to Life AND a Right to Liberty. So, no matter how many laws are passed, the majority of gun owners will not forfeit that Right. On that issue, they understand the concept.

Those same people would, however, deny to me my Rights and punish me for hiring undocumented foreigners. The sad truth is, just as the feds are usurping the Second Amendment, they are waging a war against your Liberty. Those wanting a wall cannot find any biblical precedent for CONTROLLING people (which was one the first reasons cited to me in favor of a wall) and that was followed up by Ray – falsely believing we can keep people out. What a crock! (Continued in part II)

Now you're forcing me to repeat myself.

That has to be the damned funniest thing I've read on this board. Everyone in our country has rights, but they are also subject to our laws if they abuse those rights. The same damned thing applies to illegal aliens, that's how our LAW refers to them. So take your semantics game and shove it.

Our Constitution doesn't apply to the whole freaking world, the entry of aliens (meaning not of this country) are regulated by our laws. Not by your fantasies.

.

I've repeated myself EIGHT times to Ray. You bitch because you cannot understand one simple thing:

While the Constitution governs us, there are laws above the Constitution

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

My goodness you are off the charts tonight. Every one of my concerns and points are the exact opposite of the Democrat party. Yours are much more inline with them than mine. Nobody is "ruling" you, just pointing out that I'm not the only one who sees you as an open borders person.

They can see me for what they like. That won't make it true. As I told you, there are two questions they've never asked me. Their entire world is, much like yours, if you don't buy the build the wall solution as being the only solution, you're an open borders liberal.

If you can't understand, after I've defined what you told me, that YOU are a liberal Democrat, then you are less intelligent than I ever dreamed. You should do some self introspection and then say, if I want to make a difference in the future of my nation and my culture, MAYBE I should STFU, do some studying, and figure out what this is all about.

You're so hung up on trying to peg me that you have no clue as to where I stand. You even ignore the hints. It's like someone is needed to bash you in the head with a rock before you understand: There are many sides to this issue and most people have serious flaws with their proposed solutions.

Every person arguing for a wall could not convince a jury. The recent turnover in the House of Representatives should tell you how ineffective your position is. In order to win, you'd have to be able to make the other guy's argument for him and do a better job than he does. You don't have a freaking clue as to where I stand and you end up making some of the most idiotic statements known to God or man.

That is why you're in the same boat the followers of Jim Jones were in.

Yes, you gained seats in the House, but lost them in the Senate. And if you bother to look at the results, you'd see that both parties had an outstanding and historical turnout. It's just that the hatred of the Democrats won over. But Trump supporters are still behind him as they were during the presidential election.

Nobody ever said the wall is the sole solution. You are making up that BS in your head. The wall (as border patrol stated) is a very helpful part of the solution. The solution is multi-level. The sole solution would be to get the Congress to pass a law making being here illegally a first degree felony with a minimum five year prison sentence. Then there would be no need for a wall, no need for e-veryfiy, no need for additional border agents, no need to track down illegals here. Most of them would pack up and leave the country.

I know quite well what this is all about--you don't. You remain ignorant of the long term goals by the Democrat party yet support their initiatives and furthermore claim yourself as a conservative.

I have endured your dumbassery long enough. I didn't win a damn thing Ray as I voted Republican. I don't support Democracy - not in name, not by party, not by ideology. YOU DO and I'm sick and tired of your dishonesty so I'll treat you like you treat me.

You have one standard. If someone does not back the silly wall, they are a liberal, etc. THAT is what separates you from others with an IQ higher than their shoe size.

If you had ANY IQ, you would know why Congress can pass no such law as you suggest. My only point to you is that we are restricted by the parameters of the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings in what kind of legislation we an pass.

You have proven to be a fake, a phony, a fraud, and a poseur. YOU adopted Bill Clinton's philosophy and have your head stuck so far up the liberals ass that if they fart, you will choke to death or get your first breath of air.

Now, you've called me a liberal for the last time. Put up, shut up or get ready for a nasty back and forth. Enough of this B.S. You didn't know what an unalienable Right is so you don't have a clue when you advocate withholding one or denying one to someone. You would have to kill me Ray in order to do some of the things you propose. My Rights are unalienable. You cannot take them; you cannot impose on them. To even suggest it shows that YOU ARE NOT EVEN AN AMERICAN.

You should start at post #2806. Read it and then cull through those 500 posts so you can see the number of times you LIED, called me names and tried to deflect when asked direct questions. It's not my fault that the left misled you and made a socialist out of you. Now, you want a discussion or a pissing match?

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

Part II of my response to you:

In Jesus Time, there were THREE walls that surrounded Jerusalem, 90 towers stood in the first wall, 14 in the second, and 60 in the third. The third wall was built by Herod Agrippa I. These walls dated back to the time the first one was built in 130 B.C. Yet, very clearly these walls did not work. They did not keep the moneychangers out of the Temple (It didn’t even keep them outside the outer walls) Furthermore, the walls did not keep out the poseurs who claimed to be Israelites, but were in fact, half breed Canaanites that Jesus referred to as the Children of Hell.

America, being a cut above the third world is not Mexico, Canada, etc. NOR are we at war (which is the primary purpose of a wall … OTHER THAN preserving a culture.)

Those who want a wall cite they mythical stories that these foreigners steal jobs – impossible unless you live in a socialist country… and Ray wants to debate the meaning of socialism. Since he previously rejected the dictionary definition, I went directly to the socialists themselves. These are THEIR words, not mine:

“we believe that social and economic decisions should be made by those whom they most affect.

Today, corporate executives who answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stockholders make basic economic decisions affecting millions of people. Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them”

What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

These are Ray’s EXACT sentiments. Ray advocates for that very kind of control as do those who have bothered to answer my questions.

I think it’s time for the build the wall guys, the right, the left, etc. to cut the crap and get real. From where do your Rights come from? If the government give you your rights via your citizenship, then government is your Creator and your God. It’s time to read the Declaration of Independence and the Court cases related thereto.

Under that scenario, you have NO Right to keep and bear Arms, NO Right to Freedom of the Press or Freedom of Speech, No Right to Freedom of Religion, etc. This is NOT multiple choice; it’s either / or.

IF you believe in the foundational principles upon which America was founded, then you accept the fact that unalienable Rights pre-existed before the Constitution was written. Man cannot take them from you. And so, rather than spew this idiotic charge that I’m “pro-open borders,” you have to ask yourself the REAL question:

Is your Liberty a gift from your Creator OR is it bestowed upon you by government? IF you believe in God, you have to find the biblical justification for denying to people their Liberty. Securing the border, protecting America from an invasion, regulating the flow of people are all legal, moral and constitutional. Using the laws to control or keep people out is a violation of their unalienable Rights – unless you think that only Americans have a Right to be in the United States. We don’t have to hire those people; nobody has to do business with them; we don’t have to interact with them and it is OUR politicians that allow them to partake of the privileges of citizenship without becoming citizens. Your real beef is with the politicians.


Either you believe in Liberty or you do not. The build the wall guys understand this so they’ve created this talking point: you’re either for the wall or you are whatever insult they can conjure up. I’m not going to bother calling them names. I pointed out what socialists say and what the word of God says. IF Liberty only applies to Americans, somebody refer me to that section of the Constitution, the Bible, the Declaration of Independence or something (other that post 14th Amendment swill) that will give credence to the talking point.

I'm running in and out of the house so I'll respond as I (if I have time) to read it since brevity is not your skill set.

First of all our country does not belong to the world, it belongs to Americans as founded. Our founding documents were written for this country, not the world. Secondly, our country is not operated by any religion. In fact it's one of the big no-no's in our Constitution. Our founders expected us to believe in various religions, but not have our government run by them.

Biblical teachings were fine in the day. But this is a new day and some are just no longer valid. Be fruitful and multiply is a great theory when you have a thousand people on the planet, not such a great idea when you have 7.5 billion.

Inalienable rights are those you are born with whether you believe in God or not. They come as part of occupying this planet. NOBODY as the inalienable right to enter this country without our permission. Freedom comes after you get here, but you have no freedom until we allow you to enter. Afterwards certain rights apply, and if finally granted citizenship, all rights apply. But nobody from Guatemala has United States rights.

 

[Flopper]

Si if these assholes have all the answers why isn’t the bordersecure? Do ya think?

Our border is MORE secure than almost all other countries on the planet....except for Israel that is forced to employ fascist tactics.

LMAO. Every progressive Leftist in this forum is also an anti Semite. It’s a disease.

Who do you think funds and pioneers the build the wall talking points?

Then again, you might be playing semantics with that term "anti-semite."

Border Patrol agents want it. That to me is first and foremost in importance. Progressive Left is anti Semitic. That is also a fact.

I don't give a rip what Border Patrol agents want. They work for the taxpayers. Who do you think researched and wrote the talking points that the build the wall guys rely on?

Border patrol agents owe there jobs to illegal immigrants. Over the years we have doubled and tripled the number of agents. Without migrants climbing those walls and fences, they would have no job. If they thought a wall would seriously reduce or eliminate illegal crossing they would not be supporting it. It's just like crime reduction programs and the city police. They know it's not going to make a huge difference.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Border Patrol agents want it. That to me is first and foremost in importance. Progressive Left is anti Semitic. That is also a fact.

I don't give a rip what Border Patrol agents want. They work for the taxpayers. Who do you think researched and wrote the talking points that the build the wall guys rely on?

After reading your first sentence I realize that you are a mindless fool. You don’t respect those who risk their lives on the frontlines. You can go and jump in a frozen lake.

Bu...bu...but he’s a pastor.
I’m shocked his congregation hasn’t already committed mass suicide.

Absolute stupidity.

I thought that was your modus operendi!

I could never take your title from you. You really are stupid or just a troll.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

I don't give a rip what Border Patrol agents want. They work for the taxpayers. Who do you think researched and wrote the talking points that the build the wall guys rely on?

After reading your first sentence I realize that you are a mindless fool. You don’t respect those who risk their lives on the frontlines. You can go and jump in a frozen lake.

Bu...bu...but he’s a pastor.
I’m shocked his congregation hasn’t already committed mass suicide.

Absolute stupidity.

I thought that was your modus operendi!

I could never take your title from you. You really are stupid or just a troll.

Nope Independent is destroying you in this debate

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Poll: Majority opposes border wall with Mexico

So, is America a Republic or a Democracy?

Enough Americans voted for the wall to put Trump in office along with a butt load of congresscritters in 2016.

.

That was three years ago.

It was TWO years ago, and about two months,. Just a little off in your math. Now Trump votes of just TWO years ago no longer matter, but don't EVER expect the Left to stop trying to shove a video of Trump bragging and trying to impress some guy about what a babe magnet he was from FOURTEEN years ago! At least we KNOW the votes REALLY HAPPENED.

Irrelevant. Public opinion went against the wall after Trump was elected.

You, of course, mean the media that was against Trump breathing from the moment he tossed his hat in the ring.

Relevancy?

 

[bripat9643]

Border Patrol agents want it. That to me is first and foremost in importance. Progressive Left is anti Semitic. That is also a fact.

I don't give a rip what Border Patrol agents want. They work for the taxpayers. Who do you think researched and wrote the talking points that the build the wall guys rely on?

After reading your first sentence I realize that you are a mindless fool. You don’t respect those who risk their lives on the frontlines. You can go and jump in a frozen lake.

Don't lecture me, poseur. I've spent more time on the front lines than you've spent fretting over this issue.

The "front lines" of what, destroying our country?

Saving it from people like you

How are you saving it, by flooding it with ignorant peasants from Mexico?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

They can see me for what they like. That won't make it true. As I told you, there are two questions they've never asked me. Their entire world is, much like yours, if you don't buy the build the wall solution as being the only solution, you're an open borders liberal.

If you can't understand, after I've defined what you told me, that YOU are a liberal Democrat, then you are less intelligent than I ever dreamed. You should do some self introspection and then say, if I want to make a difference in the future of my nation and my culture, MAYBE I should STFU, do some studying, and figure out what this is all about.

You're so hung up on trying to peg me that you have no clue as to where I stand. You even ignore the hints. It's like someone is needed to bash you in the head with a rock before you understand: There are many sides to this issue and most people have serious flaws with their proposed solutions.

Every person arguing for a wall could not convince a jury. The recent turnover in the House of Representatives should tell you how ineffective your position is. In order to win, you'd have to be able to make the other guy's argument for him and do a better job than he does. You don't have a freaking clue as to where I stand and you end up making some of the most idiotic statements known to God or man.

That is why you're in the same boat the followers of Jim Jones were in.

Yes, you gained seats in the House, but lost them in the Senate. And if you bother to look at the results, you'd see that both parties had an outstanding and historical turnout. It's just that the hatred of the Democrats won over. But Trump supporters are still behind him as they were during the presidential election.

Nobody ever said the wall is the sole solution. You are making up that BS in your head. The wall (as border patrol stated) is a very helpful part of the solution. The solution is multi-level. The sole solution would be to get the Congress to pass a law making being here illegally a first degree felony with a minimum five year prison sentence. Then there would be no need for a wall, no need for e-veryfiy, no need for additional border agents, no need to track down illegals here. Most of them would pack up and leave the country.

I know quite well what this is all about--you don't. You remain ignorant of the long term goals by the Democrat party yet support their initiatives and furthermore claim yourself as a conservative.

I have endured your dumbassery long enough. I didn't win a damn thing Ray as I voted Republican. I don't support Democracy - not in name, not by party, not by ideology. YOU DO and I'm sick and tired of your dishonesty so I'll treat you like you treat me.

You have one standard. If someone does not back the silly wall, they are a liberal, etc. THAT is what separates you from others with an IQ higher than their shoe size.

If you had ANY IQ, you would know why Congress can pass no such law as you suggest. My only point to you is that we are restricted by the parameters of the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings in what kind of legislation we an pass.

You have proven to be a fake, a phony, a fraud, and a poseur. YOU adopted Bill Clinton's philosophy and have your head stuck so far up the liberals ass that if they fart, you will choke to death or get your first breath of air.

Now, you've called me a liberal for the last time. Put up, shut up or get ready for a nasty back and forth. Enough of this B.S. You didn't know what an unalienable Right is so you don't have a clue when you advocate withholding one or denying one to someone. You would have to kill me Ray in order to do some of the things you propose. My Rights are unalienable. You cannot take them; you cannot impose on them. To even suggest it shows that YOU ARE NOT EVEN AN AMERICAN.

You should start at post #2806. Read it and then cull through those 500 posts so you can see the number of times you LIED, called me names and tried to deflect when asked direct questions. It's not my fault that the left misled you and made a socialist out of you. Now, you want a discussion or a pissing match?

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

Part II of my response to you:

In Jesus Time, there were THREE walls that surrounded Jerusalem, 90 towers stood in the first wall, 14 in the second, and 60 in the third. The third wall was built by Herod Agrippa I. These walls dated back to the time the first one was built in 130 B.C. Yet, very clearly these walls did not work. They did not keep the moneychangers out of the Temple (It didn’t even keep them outside the outer walls) Furthermore, the walls did not keep out the poseurs who claimed to be Israelites, but were in fact, half breed Canaanites that Jesus referred to as the Children of Hell.

America, being a cut above the third world is not Mexico, Canada, etc. NOR are we at war (which is the primary purpose of a wall … OTHER THAN preserving a culture.)

Those who want a wall cite they mythical stories that these foreigners steal jobs – impossible unless you live in a socialist country… and Ray wants to debate the meaning of socialism. Since he previously rejected the dictionary definition, I went directly to the socialists themselves. These are THEIR words, not mine:

“we believe that social and economic decisions should be made by those whom they most affect.

Today, corporate executives who answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stockholders make basic economic decisions affecting millions of people. Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them”

What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

These are Ray’s EXACT sentiments. Ray advocates for that very kind of control as do those who have bothered to answer my questions.

I think it’s time for the build the wall guys, the right, the left, etc. to cut the crap and get real. From where do your Rights come from? If the government give you your rights via your citizenship, then government is your Creator and your God. It’s time to read the Declaration of Independence and the Court cases related thereto.

Under that scenario, you have NO Right to keep and bear Arms, NO Right to Freedom of the Press or Freedom of Speech, No Right to Freedom of Religion, etc. This is NOT multiple choice; it’s either / or.

IF you believe in the foundational principles upon which America was founded, then you accept the fact that unalienable Rights pre-existed before the Constitution was written. Man cannot take them from you. And so, rather than spew this idiotic charge that I’m “pro-open borders,” you have to ask yourself the REAL question:

Is your Liberty a gift from your Creator OR is it bestowed upon you by government? IF you believe in God, you have to find the biblical justification for denying to people their Liberty. Securing the border, protecting America from an invasion, regulating the flow of people are all legal, moral and constitutional. Using the laws to control or keep people out is a violation of their unalienable Rights – unless you think that only Americans have a Right to be in the United States. We don’t have to hire those people; nobody has to do business with them; we don’t have to interact with them and it is OUR politicians that allow them to partake of the privileges of citizenship without becoming citizens. Your real beef is with the politicians.


Either you believe in Liberty or you do not. The build the wall guys understand this so they’ve created this talking point: you’re either for the wall or you are whatever insult they can conjure up. I’m not going to bother calling them names. I pointed out what socialists say and what the word of God says. IF Liberty only applies to Americans, somebody refer me to that section of the Constitution, the Bible, the Declaration of Independence or something (other that post 14th Amendment swill) that will give credence to the talking point.

I'm running in and out of the house so I'll respond as I (if I have time) to read it since brevity is not your skill set.

First of all our country does not belong to the world, it belongs to Americans as founded. Our founding documents were written for this country, not the world. Secondly, our country is not operated by any religion. In fact it's one of the big no-no's in our Constitution. Our founders expected us to believe in various religions, but not have our government run by them.

Biblical teachings were fine in the day. But this is a new day and some are just no longer valid. Be fruitful and multiply is a great theory when you have a thousand people on the planet, not such a great idea when you have 7.5 billion.

Inalienable rights are those you are born with whether you believe in God or not. They come as part of occupying this planet. NOBODY as the inalienable right to enter this country without our permission. Freedom comes after you get here, but you have no freedom until we allow you to enter. Afterwards certain rights apply, and if finally granted citizenship, all rights apply. But nobody from Guatemala has United States rights.

There you are with that dumbassery again - and dishonesty. I have not one time argued inalienable rights. Stick your inalienable rights where the sun don't shine. I'm only concerned with unalienable Rights.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

After reading your first sentence I realize that you are a mindless fool. You don’t respect those who risk their lives on the frontlines. You can go and jump in a frozen lake.

Bu...bu...but he’s a pastor.
I’m shocked his congregation hasn’t already committed mass suicide.

Absolute stupidity.

I thought that was your modus operendi!

I could never take your title from you. You really are stupid or just a troll.

Nope Independent is destroying you in this debate

That shows how little you know. There is NO debate going on. This is a discussion forum. Pit me against a dozen people so I cannot "debate" someone and then claim a win??? You now know why you are destined to lose.

 

[depotoo]

It isn’t just Republicans employing in them. There are probably more households that employ them as housekeepers, lawn service, nannies, etc., than companies.

A- Cost prohibitive
B- Won't work
C- It's racist
D- It would reduce those successfully crossing the border
E- None of the Above

The machine benefits by not having a wall. Business (Republicans) get their cheap labor and (Democrats) get the votes

You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours

There is no excuse for the Republicans not funding the wall.

-Geaux

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I don't give a rip what Border Patrol agents want. They work for the taxpayers. Who do you think researched and wrote the talking points that the build the wall guys rely on?

After reading your first sentence I realize that you are a mindless fool. You don’t respect those who risk their lives on the frontlines. You can go and jump in a frozen lake.

Don't lecture me, poseur. I've spent more time on the front lines than you've spent fretting over this issue.

The "front lines" of what, destroying our country?

Saving it from people like you

How are you saving it, by flooding it with ignorant peasants from Mexico?

I've answered this for you three times:

1) I'm working to stop the drug addicts created by parents, government, doctors / mental health officials and Big Pharma

2) We're taking people off the street, helping them get a GED, clean up their record if possible and get them back into the work-force

3) I am constantly lobbying legislators to pass legislation to get them to rehabilitate those in prison by giving prisoners an opportunity to earn shorter sentences via accomplishments while incarcerated: Get their GED, learn a job skill, etc.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Bu...bu...but he’s a pastor.
I’m shocked his congregation hasn’t already committed mass suicide.

Absolute stupidity.

I thought that was your modus operendi!

I could never take your title from you. You really are stupid or just a troll.

Nope Independent is destroying you in this debate

That shows how little you know. There is NO debate going on. This is a discussion forum. Pit me against a dozen people so I cannot "debate" someone and then claim a win??? You now know why you are destined to lose.

In my opinion you were debating and you lost badly.

 

[WillowTree]

Our border is MORE secure than almost all other countries on the planet....except for Israel that is forced to employ fascist tactics.

LMAO. Every progressive Leftist in this forum is also an anti Semite. It’s a disease.

Who do you think funds and pioneers the build the wall talking points?

Then again, you might be playing semantics with that term "anti-semite."

Border Patrol agents want it. That to me is first and foremost in importance. Progressive Left is anti Semitic. That is also a fact.

I don't give a rip what Border Patrol agents want. They work for the taxpayers. Who do you think researched and wrote the talking points that the build the wall guys rely on?

Border patrol agents owe there jobs to illegal immigrants. Over the years we have doubled and tripled the number of agents. Without migrants climbing those walls and fences, they would have no job. If they thought a wall would seriously reduce or eliminate illegal crossing they would not be supporting it. It's just like crime reduction programs and the city police. They know it's not going to make a huge difference.

Their, not there. That’s exactly what the border patrol says. They say they need that wall. Stop lying!

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

After reading your first sentence I realize that you are a mindless fool. You don’t respect those who risk their lives on the frontlines. You can go and jump in a frozen lake.

Don't lecture me, poseur. I've spent more time on the front lines than you've spent fretting over this issue.

The "front lines" of what, destroying our country?

Saving it from people like you

How are you saving it, by flooding it with ignorant peasants from Mexico?

I've answered this for you three times:

1) I'm working to stop the drug addicts created by parents, government, doctors / mental health officials and Big Pharma

2) We're taking people off the street, helping them get a GED, clean up their record if possible and get them back into the work-force

3) I am constantly lobbying legislators to pass legislation to get them to rehabilitate those in prison by giving prisoners an opportunity to earn shorter sentences via accomplishments while incarcerated: Get their GED, learn a job skill, etc.

Why can you not do this and support more border security?

 

[OKTexas]

U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 9

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight

OMG. Are you kidding? That was tried once today. The rest of the article deals with a ten dollar tax per person after 1808. One only need to look at the year in which they Chy Lung decision was laid down to see that.

The US Constitution gives a general “OUTLINE” .. if you prefer “ bullet statements” ... regarding each branch of government. In this case, it surrounds the role of the legislative branch, and the authority of Congress. If you NOW want to change the subject to interpretation and original intent, we can talk about the 14th Amendment.

I’m willing to bet you wont be able to establish much surrounding your point of view, without actually taking the time to do the actual research on this subject, as I have.

You're probably right. I've only been involved in court cases surrounding the 14th Amendment for 35 or so years and have written maybe 250 court briefs on the topic. I'm sure you have much more extensive experience. Virtually all you build the wall guys do.

All that and you still haven't gotten the supremes to strike it down, they must not have been very effective briefs.

.

You have almost gotten me to stoop to your level.

As a matter of FACT, our side was winning the war until half wits (and that's being liberal in presuming you're even a half wit) screwed the pooch with this big government or no government cow dung.

Maybe you should post documentation of the "wins". So far you're like a guy sitting in a bar watching other people play pool and trying to tell them how it's done, but can never put his words into action on the table.

.