Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[toobfreak]

Security comes from those that guard a border. .

So you want a guard stationed every 50 feet, with another ready to relieve him to go to the bathroom? That would take 211,000 active guards with about 50,000 more on standby on 8 hours shifts X 3 for 24 hour coverage. Assuming a pay of $34,000 a year, you are talking about 26.64 billion dollars A YEAR, not including guns, ammunition, vehicles and everything else. Or a one time fee of 20 billion for a wall that is proven to stop 95% of the traffic.

Border barriers simply slow an intruder down. .

You mean like how they slow an inmate down from escaping from a penitentiary? Even if that were all there was to it, slowing down is enough. It gives you time to get there. And it gives you time for DETECTION. The fear of detection, arrest and prosecution is enough to discourage most intruders. Considering that our revenue for 2019 from taxes is 3.4 trillion, the wall is less than 0.6% of our budget. Even less if we alter our trade deal with Mexico.

So you're proposing we collect a fine from people we don't catch that don't have any money.

Do you merely ACT obtuse or are you really stupid, Flopper? I'm proposing we immediately arrest, detain and return illegals AT THE BORDER caught as they try to come in. And we inject them with a transponder which identifies them as a prior offender. If you are caught again sneaking in and have the chip, that is a capital offense subject to a firing squad without appeal. Bang! You're gone. Wanna guess how many people keep trying to sneak in then?

Try sneaking into N. Korea, Russia or a lot of other countries illegally and see if they hand you a basket of flowers and a welcome card!

ONCE THEY KNOW we are truly SERIOUS about national sovereignty, there will be a YUGE falloff in illegal traffic. And a concomitant falloff in costs , upkeep and expenditure.

Meantime, you collect the $5,000 from the illegals already here, who LIVE here, work, have jobs, and money. Or you arrest them and make them work to pay it back until they've paid us $5,000 more than they cost. Bingo. Mexico just paid for the wall. This is easy stuff. Only a matter of national will and governmental action.

No matter how you jerks try to flop it, there is NO RATIONAL ARGUMENT for not defending our border, especially when you have 700,000 indigent people crossing in a year. NO NATION CAN SURVIVE THAT FOR LONG. Better own up to it soon.

 

[danielpalos]

Building the wall is wrong only if your definition of right is to destroy the U.S.A. as a sovereign nation and to enable Globalist Elites to plunder the remains.

capitalism is worthless if we need walls.

 

[Slyhunter]

Building the wall is wrong only if your definition of right is to destroy the U.S.A. as a sovereign nation and to enable Globalist Elites to plunder the remains.

capitalism is worthless if we need walls.

We should charge a fee for anyone seeking Asylum that covers court costs, up front.

 

[toobfreak]

Which is why they have been used for 18 centuries.

Sure, for 18 centuries our forefathers just couldn't come up with drones......Also, ask the Israelis how many tunnels have been dug under THEIR wall......lol

I can dig a tunnel under a drone even easier. Or just walk past it. Or shoot the drone down. Have any idea what a good drone costs? Who's going to fly it? Refuel it? Monitor its camera? Or camouflage myself so the drone doesn't see me. With a wall, people are stopped, The few that try to get over or under are picked up by cameras or drones, or vibration sensors or patrols, but someone still has to monitor all that. And they still have to get to the action. By the time your drone sees me and you get there, I'm LONG GONE buddy! At least with the wall, I was greatly slowed down giving you time to respond.

Gee, you act like they will be putting the wall in your backyard! Last I checked, most people along the border WANT the wall. And it can be easily paid for by simply collecting the fines every illegal is due us. According to my math, that comes to 53 billion dollars.

Poll: Majority opposes border wall with Mexico

So, is America a Republic or a Democracy?

Enough Americans voted for the wall to put Trump in office along with a butt load of congresscritters in 2016.

.

That was three years ago.

It was TWO years ago, and about two months,. Just a little off in your math. Now Trump votes of just TWO years ago no longer matter, but don't EVER expect the Left to stop trying to shove a video of Trump bragging and trying to impress some guy about what a babe magnet he was from FOURTEEN years ago! At least we KNOW the votes REALLY HAPPENED.

 

[danielpalos]

Building the wall is wrong only if your definition of right is to destroy the U.S.A. as a sovereign nation and to enable Globalist Elites to plunder the remains.

capitalism is worthless if we need walls.

We should charge a fee for anyone seeking Asylum that covers court costs, up front.

raise the minimum wage and upgrade Ellis Island.

 

[nat4900]

No, because any Republican Senator that doesn't stand by Trump will lose their election.

Well, I guess among your ilk's cult culture, losing an election is better than being shot in back of the Capitol for having disobeyed the ORANGE EMPEROR...........LOL

 

[Flopper]

Border wall....a 3rd century "solution" to a 21st. century problem

And what "21st century" solution do you think is more cost effective at stopping people from going from A to B than a wall, hun? A wall may be 3rd century, but they work VERY WELL at stopping people. Which is why they have been used for 18 centuries.

Well, we could take away the reason they're coming here which is not to have babies, rape and pillage, or vote for Hillary Clinton.

And just how in the hell do you propose we could take away their reason for coming here? Not one of your better posts.

1. Take away the jobs.
2. Stop supporting dictators that make their lives a living hell.
3. Have them apply for asylum at US embassies eliminating the caravans.
4. Establish reasonable country limits and increase the number work permits.

 

[Flopper]

Which is why they have been used for 18 centuries.

Sure, for 18 centuries our forefathers just couldn't come up with drones......Also, ask the Israelis how many tunnels have been dug under THEIR wall......lol

I can dig a tunnel under a drone even easier. Or just walk past it. Or shoot the drone down. Have any idea what a good drone costs? Who's going to fly it? Refuel it? Monitor its camera? Or camouflage myself so the drone doesn't see me. With a wall, people are stopped, The few that try to get over or under are picked up by cameras or drones, or vibration sensors or patrols, but someone still has to monitor all that. And they still have to get to the action. By the time your drone sees me and you get there, I'm LONG GONE buddy! At least with the wall, I was greatly slowed down giving you time to respond.

Gee, you act like they will be putting the wall in your backyard! Last I checked, most people along the border WANT the wall. And it can be easily paid for by simply collecting the fines every illegal is due us. According to my math, that comes to 53 billion dollars.

Poll: Majority opposes border wall with Mexico

So, is America a Republic or a Democracy?

Enough Americans voted for the wall to put Trump in office along with a butt load of congresscritters in 2016.

.

They voted for Trump, not a majority but enough. The wall was only one of a dozen reasons for the Trump victory. This is why 51% to 69% of Americans say they either oppose building a wall or say it's not a priority.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

OMG. Are you kidding? That was tried once today. The rest of the article deals with a ten dollar tax per person after 1808. One only need to look at the year in which they Chy Lung decision was laid down to see that.

The US Constitution gives a general “OUTLINE” .. if you prefer “ bullet statements” ... regarding each branch of government. In this case, it surrounds the role of the legislative branch, and the authority of Congress. If you NOW want to change the subject to interpretation and original intent, we can talk about the 14th Amendment.

I’m willing to bet you wont be able to establish much surrounding your point of view, without actually taking the time to do the actual research on this subject, as I have.

You're probably right. I've only been involved in court cases surrounding the 14th Amendment for 35 or so years and have written maybe 250 court briefs on the topic. I'm sure you have much more extensive experience. Virtually all you build the wall guys do.

All that and you still haven't gotten the supremes to strike it down, they must not have been very effective briefs.

.

In trying to summarize my last post .. It’s not what you HAVE, it’s what you can PROVE. Resumes are only good hainging on someone’s wall

Yeah, this dude has gone form some kind of social worker to now a constitutional lawyer. He hasn't even said why he thinks the 14th was implemented illegally.

.

I didn’t think it would be that easy to challenge a Constitutional lawyer with referenced facts. What’s his third job?

 

[OKTexas]

Which is why they have been used for 18 centuries.

Sure, for 18 centuries our forefathers just couldn't come up with drones......Also, ask the Israelis how many tunnels have been dug under THEIR wall......lol

I can dig a tunnel under a drone even easier. Or just walk past it. Or shoot the drone down. Have any idea what a good drone costs? Who's going to fly it? Refuel it? Monitor its camera? Or camouflage myself so the drone doesn't see me. With a wall, people are stopped, The few that try to get over or under are picked up by cameras or drones, or vibration sensors or patrols, but someone still has to monitor all that. And they still have to get to the action. By the time your drone sees me and you get there, I'm LONG GONE buddy! At least with the wall, I was greatly slowed down giving you time to respond.

Gee, you act like they will be putting the wall in your backyard! Last I checked, most people along the border WANT the wall. And it can be easily paid for by simply collecting the fines every illegal is due us. According to my math, that comes to 53 billion dollars.

Poll: Majority opposes border wall with Mexico

So, is America a Republic or a Democracy?

Enough Americans voted for the wall to put Trump in office along with a butt load of congresscritters in 2016.

.

They voted for Trump, not a majority but enough. The wall was only one of a dozen reasons for the Trump victory. This is why 51% to 69% of Americans say they either oppose building a wall or say it's not a priority.

Tell the mayor of El Paso that the 3500 illegals being dumped in his lap a week because the courts say we can't hold them, that a wall isn't a priority. And that's just ONE city.

.

 

[OKTexas]

The US Constitution gives a general “OUTLINE” .. if you prefer “ bullet statements” ... regarding each branch of government. In this case, it surrounds the role of the legislative branch, and the authority of Congress. If you NOW want to change the subject to interpretation and original intent, we can talk about the 14th Amendment.

I’m willing to bet you wont be able to establish much surrounding your point of view, without actually taking the time to do the actual research on this subject, as I have.

You're probably right. I've only been involved in court cases surrounding the 14th Amendment for 35 or so years and have written maybe 250 court briefs on the topic. I'm sure you have much more extensive experience. Virtually all you build the wall guys do.

All that and you still haven't gotten the supremes to strike it down, they must not have been very effective briefs.

.

In trying to summarize my last post .. It’s not what you HAVE, it’s what you can PROVE. Resumes are only good hainging on someone’s wall

Yeah, this dude has gone form some kind of social worker to now a constitutional lawyer. He hasn't even said why he thinks the 14th was implemented illegally.

.

I didn’t think it would be that easy to challenge a Constitutional lawyer with referenced facts. What’s his third job?

Who knows.

.

 

[task0778]

Border wall....a 3rd century "solution" to a 21st. century problem

And what "21st century" solution do you think is more cost effective at stopping people from going from A to B than a wall, hun? A wall may be 3rd century, but they work VERY WELL at stopping people. Which is why they have been used for 18 centuries.

Well, we could take away the reason they're coming here which is not to have babies, rape and pillage, or vote for Hillary Clinton.

And just how in the hell do you propose we could take away their reason for coming here? Not one of your better posts.

1. Take away the jobs.
2. Stop supporting dictators that make their lives a living hell.
3. Have them apply for asylum at US embassies eliminating the caravans.
4. Establish reasonable country limits and increase the number work permits.

1. Take away the jobs. - they'll still come here
2. Stop supporting dictators that make their lives a living hell. - you really think this will make a difference?
3. Have them apply for asylum at US embassies eliminating the caravans. - and what if they don't? What if they get turned down?
4. Establish reasonable country limits and increase the number work permits. uh huh, sure. what about all the people that don't get a permit?

These are all good ideas, but they ain't going to eliminate the main reasons why so many want to come here. Extreme poverty and lawlessness, none of this is going to fix the problems they have in several countries below our border and all the way into South America. But, like the wall, these things are worth doing and will reduce the illegal immigration problem. A multi-pronged approach, I like it BUT we still need the wall/fence/barrier. The message has to be loud and clear: come here legally or don't come at all.

And BTW we need to get rid of this sanctuary cities/states bullshit. We need a law that says if you get caught here doing anything illegal then you're going to get sent home. Jurisdictions that won't comply don't get federal dollars for ANYTHING. And if you warn them that ICE is coming like that fucking bitch mayor did then your sorry ass gets prosecuted and she does jail time in a federal lockup.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Which is why they have been used for 18 centuries.

Sure, for 18 centuries our forefathers just couldn't come up with drones......Also, ask the Israelis how many tunnels have been dug under THEIR wall......lol

I can dig a tunnel under a drone even easier. Or just walk past it. Or shoot the drone down. Have any idea what a good drone costs? Who's going to fly it? Refuel it? Monitor its camera? Or camouflage myself so the drone doesn't see me. With a wall, people are stopped, The few that try to get over or under are picked up by cameras or drones, or vibration sensors or patrols, but someone still has to monitor all that. And they still have to get to the action. By the time your drone sees me and you get there, I'm LONG GONE buddy! At least with the wall, I was greatly slowed down giving you time to respond.

Gee, you act like they will be putting the wall in your backyard! Last I checked, most people along the border WANT the wall. And it can be easily paid for by simply collecting the fines every illegal is due us. According to my math, that comes to 53 billion dollars.

Poll: Majority opposes border wall with Mexico

So, is America a Republic or a Democracy?

Enough Americans voted for the wall to put Trump in office along with a butt load of congresscritters in 2016.

.

They voted for Trump, not a majority but enough. The wall was only one of a dozen reasons for the Trump victory. This is why 51% to 69% of Americans say they either oppose building a wall or say it's not a priority.

Oh come on, you don't believe that, do you?

Every other politician in the primaries addressed the immigration problem the same way. They yapped about immigration reform which nobody on our side said anything about. They talked about rewarding illegals with some kind of citizenship, something most Republican voters were against. Others talked about giving more work to illegals, again, no interest of ours.

Only one man heard our voice; one man who repeated what we were telling the Republican party, and that one man was Donald Trump.

One by one, this man eliminated candidate after candidate. When he was done, he stunned Vegas by beating an opponent that was predicted to win the election almost effortlessly. Today he is our President.

He couldn't have done this without his one message--build that wall.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No, because any Republican Senator that doesn't stand by Trump will lose their election.

Well, I guess among your ilk's cult culture, losing an election is better than being shot in back of the Capitol for having disobeyed the ORANGE EMPEROR...........LOL

Pay attention, will you? We were talking about Trump--not the Clinton's.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Of course you can all be wrong. Jim Jones got over 900 people to drink cyanide laced Kool Aid based on a lie. You are just as susceptible to being fooled - AND you just proved it with that part "several others have done the same. We all can't be wrong.."

You just inadvertently admitted you're a Democrat - majority rule - might makes right.

Let me tell you something:

Ever since the Israelites began worshiping the golden calf while Moses was receiving the law of God, history has proven that majorities are usually wrong. In the instant case BOTH sides are wrong - and you're wrong basically because the solutions you stand behind belonged to Democrats before they were adopted by the people writing your talking points.

My goodness you are off the charts tonight. Every one of my concerns and points are the exact opposite of the Democrat party. Yours are much more inline with them than mine. Nobody is "ruling" you, just pointing out that I'm not the only one who sees you as an open borders person.

They can see me for what they like. That won't make it true. As I told you, there are two questions they've never asked me. Their entire world is, much like yours, if you don't buy the build the wall solution as being the only solution, you're an open borders liberal.

If you can't understand, after I've defined what you told me, that YOU are a liberal Democrat, then you are less intelligent than I ever dreamed. You should do some self introspection and then say, if I want to make a difference in the future of my nation and my culture, MAYBE I should STFU, do some studying, and figure out what this is all about.

You're so hung up on trying to peg me that you have no clue as to where I stand. You even ignore the hints. It's like someone is needed to bash you in the head with a rock before you understand: There are many sides to this issue and most people have serious flaws with their proposed solutions.

Every person arguing for a wall could not convince a jury. The recent turnover in the House of Representatives should tell you how ineffective your position is. In order to win, you'd have to be able to make the other guy's argument for him and do a better job than he does. You don't have a freaking clue as to where I stand and you end up making some of the most idiotic statements known to God or man.

That is why you're in the same boat the followers of Jim Jones were in.

Yes, you gained seats in the House, but lost them in the Senate. And if you bother to look at the results, you'd see that both parties had an outstanding and historical turnout. It's just that the hatred of the Democrats won over. But Trump supporters are still behind him as they were during the presidential election.

Nobody ever said the wall is the sole solution. You are making up that BS in your head. The wall (as border patrol stated) is a very helpful part of the solution. The solution is multi-level. The sole solution would be to get the Congress to pass a law making being here illegally a first degree felony with a minimum five year prison sentence. Then there would be no need for a wall, no need for e-veryfiy, no need for additional border agents, no need to track down illegals here. Most of them would pack up and leave the country.

I know quite well what this is all about--you don't. You remain ignorant of the long term goals by the Democrat party yet support their initiatives and furthermore claim yourself as a conservative.

I have endured your dumbassery long enough. I didn't win a damn thing Ray as I voted Republican. I don't support Democracy - not in name, not by party, not by ideology. YOU DO and I'm sick and tired of your dishonesty so I'll treat you like you treat me.

You have one standard. If someone does not back the silly wall, they are a liberal, etc. THAT is what separates you from others with an IQ higher than their shoe size.

If you had ANY IQ, you would know why Congress can pass no such law as you suggest. My only point to you is that we are restricted by the parameters of the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings in what kind of legislation we an pass.

You have proven to be a fake, a phony, a fraud, and a poseur. YOU adopted Bill Clinton's philosophy and have your head stuck so far up the liberals ass that if they fart, you will choke to death or get your first breath of air.

Now, you've called me a liberal for the last time. Put up, shut up or get ready for a nasty back and forth. Enough of this B.S. You didn't know what an unalienable Right is so you don't have a clue when you advocate withholding one or denying one to someone. You would have to kill me Ray in order to do some of the things you propose. My Rights are unalienable. You cannot take them; you cannot impose on them. To even suggest it shows that YOU ARE NOT EVEN AN AMERICAN.

You should start at post #2806. Read it and then cull through those 500 posts so you can see the number of times you LIED, called me names and tried to deflect when asked direct questions. It's not my fault that the left misled you and made a socialist out of you. Now, you want a discussion or a pissing match?

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

I promised you a response. It takes two parts. Here is the first part, the second one to follow:

Ray, challenging me on a subject you have shown an absolute ignorant and /or disdain of can be very costly. To begin with, the build the wall guys say if you are not for a wall, you are a liberal, lefty, etc. That is absolutely idiotic as we shall see.

The way I view the topic is best described in an analogy. In this analogy a man is stuck in a burning apartment on the third floor of a building (this part of the analogy describes our situation in America.) If this man stays in his current position, he dies. If the man goes out the door, there is a 100 percent chance that he will be killed (that part of the analogy refers to the nutty wall idea.) If he jumps out the window, the fall might kill him, but then again, he might live. That part of the analogy refers to a solution OTHER THAN the nutty wall idea.

I am neither pro-open borders NOR am I anti – closed borders. So, let’s get that understood and make an attempt to be honest. It’s just that a militarized border with a wall around it will not work in the United States.

The REAL cost of the wall is Liberty. So far, no build the wall guy has addressed the issue of Liberty. In the Declaration of Independence, we find these words:

“WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”

Of this document, the Declaration of Independence, the SCOTUS ruled:

The first official action of this nation declared the foundation of government in these words: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. "While such declaration of principles may not have the force of organic law, or be made the basis of judicial decision as to the limits of right and duty, and while in all cases reference must be had to the organic law of the nation for such limits, yet the latter is but the body and the letter of which the former is the thought and the spirit, and it is always safe to read the letter of the Constitution in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. No duty rests more imperatively upon the courts than the enforcement of those constitutional provisions intended to secure that equality of rights which is the foundation of free government." Cotting v. Godard, 183 U.S. 79 (1901)

The Bible is clear about this subject as well:

“Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land Unto All the Inhabitants thereof” Leviticus 25: 10 and this Bible verse can be found on the Liberty Bell at Independence Hall. This Old Testament verse refers to the "Jubilee", or the instructions to the Israelites to return property and free slaves.every 50 years.

In II Timothy 3: 16 we read that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”

Finally, in II Corinthians 3 : 17 we read that:

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.”

But what is Liberty? Well in a biblical sense, liberty means freedom (see # 1865 in the Greek Dictionary of Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. In law, Liberty means Freedom; exemption from extraneous control. …freedom regulated by law. (Black’s Law Dictionary Fifth Edition)

My take on it is very simple:

In New Jersey, they passed a law requiring people to turn in high capacity magazines… this included even off duty police. Nobody complied? Why? People think the law is unconstitutional. The Right to Life and Liberty are unalienable Rights. The Right to keep and bear Arms is an unalienable Right. It is an extension of both a Right to Life AND a Right to Liberty. So, no matter how many laws are passed, the majority of gun owners will not forfeit that Right. On that issue, they understand the concept.

Those same people would, however, deny to me my Rights and punish me for hiring undocumented foreigners. The sad truth is, just as the feds are usurping the Second Amendment, they are waging a war against your Liberty. Those wanting a wall cannot find any biblical precedent for CONTROLLING people (which was one the first reasons cited to me in favor of a wall) and that was followed up by Ray – falsely believing we can keep people out. What a crock! (Continued in part II)

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Of course you can all be wrong. Jim Jones got over 900 people to drink cyanide laced Kool Aid based on a lie. You are just as susceptible to being fooled - AND you just proved it with that part "several others have done the same. We all can't be wrong.."

You just inadvertently admitted you're a Democrat - majority rule - might makes right.

Let me tell you something:

Ever since the Israelites began worshiping the golden calf while Moses was receiving the law of God, history has proven that majorities are usually wrong. In the instant case BOTH sides are wrong - and you're wrong basically because the solutions you stand behind belonged to Democrats before they were adopted by the people writing your talking points.

My goodness you are off the charts tonight. Every one of my concerns and points are the exact opposite of the Democrat party. Yours are much more inline with them than mine. Nobody is "ruling" you, just pointing out that I'm not the only one who sees you as an open borders person.

They can see me for what they like. That won't make it true. As I told you, there are two questions they've never asked me. Their entire world is, much like yours, if you don't buy the build the wall solution as being the only solution, you're an open borders liberal.

If you can't understand, after I've defined what you told me, that YOU are a liberal Democrat, then you are less intelligent than I ever dreamed. You should do some self introspection and then say, if I want to make a difference in the future of my nation and my culture, MAYBE I should STFU, do some studying, and figure out what this is all about.

You're so hung up on trying to peg me that you have no clue as to where I stand. You even ignore the hints. It's like someone is needed to bash you in the head with a rock before you understand: There are many sides to this issue and most people have serious flaws with their proposed solutions.

Every person arguing for a wall could not convince a jury. The recent turnover in the House of Representatives should tell you how ineffective your position is. In order to win, you'd have to be able to make the other guy's argument for him and do a better job than he does. You don't have a freaking clue as to where I stand and you end up making some of the most idiotic statements known to God or man.

That is why you're in the same boat the followers of Jim Jones were in.

Yes, you gained seats in the House, but lost them in the Senate. And if you bother to look at the results, you'd see that both parties had an outstanding and historical turnout. It's just that the hatred of the Democrats won over. But Trump supporters are still behind him as they were during the presidential election.

Nobody ever said the wall is the sole solution. You are making up that BS in your head. The wall (as border patrol stated) is a very helpful part of the solution. The solution is multi-level. The sole solution would be to get the Congress to pass a law making being here illegally a first degree felony with a minimum five year prison sentence. Then there would be no need for a wall, no need for e-veryfiy, no need for additional border agents, no need to track down illegals here. Most of them would pack up and leave the country.

I know quite well what this is all about--you don't. You remain ignorant of the long term goals by the Democrat party yet support their initiatives and furthermore claim yourself as a conservative.

I have endured your dumbassery long enough. I didn't win a damn thing Ray as I voted Republican. I don't support Democracy - not in name, not by party, not by ideology. YOU DO and I'm sick and tired of your dishonesty so I'll treat you like you treat me.

You have one standard. If someone does not back the silly wall, they are a liberal, etc. THAT is what separates you from others with an IQ higher than their shoe size.

If you had ANY IQ, you would know why Congress can pass no such law as you suggest. My only point to you is that we are restricted by the parameters of the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings in what kind of legislation we an pass.

You have proven to be a fake, a phony, a fraud, and a poseur. YOU adopted Bill Clinton's philosophy and have your head stuck so far up the liberals ass that if they fart, you will choke to death or get your first breath of air.

Now, you've called me a liberal for the last time. Put up, shut up or get ready for a nasty back and forth. Enough of this B.S. You didn't know what an unalienable Right is so you don't have a clue when you advocate withholding one or denying one to someone. You would have to kill me Ray in order to do some of the things you propose. My Rights are unalienable. You cannot take them; you cannot impose on them. To even suggest it shows that YOU ARE NOT EVEN AN AMERICAN.

You should start at post #2806. Read it and then cull through those 500 posts so you can see the number of times you LIED, called me names and tried to deflect when asked direct questions. It's not my fault that the left misled you and made a socialist out of you. Now, you want a discussion or a pissing match?

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

Part II of my response to you:

In Jesus Time, there were THREE walls that surrounded Jerusalem, 90 towers stood in the first wall, 14 in the second, and 60 in the third. The third wall was built by Herod Agrippa I. These walls dated back to the time the first one was built in 130 B.C. Yet, very clearly these walls did not work. They did not keep the moneychangers out of the Temple (It didn’t even keep them outside the outer walls) Furthermore, the walls did not keep out the poseurs who claimed to be Israelites, but were in fact, half breed Canaanites that Jesus referred to as the Children of Hell.

America, being a cut above the third world is not Mexico, Canada, etc. NOR are we at war (which is the primary purpose of a wall … OTHER THAN preserving a culture.)

Those who want a wall cite they mythical stories that these foreigners steal jobs – impossible unless you live in a socialist country… and Ray wants to debate the meaning of socialism. Since he previously rejected the dictionary definition, I went directly to the socialists themselves. These are THEIR words, not mine:

“we believe that social and economic decisions should be made by those whom they most affect.

Today, corporate executives who answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stockholders make basic economic decisions affecting millions of people. Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them”

What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

These are Ray’s EXACT sentiments. Ray advocates for that very kind of control as do those who have bothered to answer my questions.

I think it’s time for the build the wall guys, the right, the left, etc. to cut the crap and get real. From where do your Rights come from? If the government give you your rights via your citizenship, then government is your Creator and your God. It’s time to read the Declaration of Independence and the Court cases related thereto.

Under that scenario, you have NO Right to keep and bear Arms, NO Right to Freedom of the Press or Freedom of Speech, No Right to Freedom of Religion, etc. This is NOT multiple choice; it’s either / or.

IF you believe in the foundational principles upon which America was founded, then you accept the fact that unalienable Rights pre-existed before the Constitution was written. Man cannot take them from you. And so, rather than spew this idiotic charge that I’m “pro-open borders,” you have to ask yourself the REAL question:

Is your Liberty a gift from your Creator OR is it bestowed upon you by government? IF you believe in God, you have to find the biblical justification for denying to people their Liberty. Securing the border, protecting America from an invasion, regulating the flow of people are all legal, moral and constitutional. Using the laws to control or keep people out is a violation of their unalienable Rights – unless you think that only Americans have a Right to be in the United States. We don’t have to hire those people; nobody has to do business with them; we don’t have to interact with them and it is OUR politicians that allow them to partake of the privileges of citizenship without becoming citizens. Your real beef is with the politicians.


Either you believe in Liberty or you do not. The build the wall guys understand this so they’ve created this talking point: you’re either for the wall or you are whatever insult they can conjure up. I’m not going to bother calling them names. I pointed out what socialists say and what the word of God says. IF Liberty only applies to Americans, somebody refer me to that section of the Constitution, the Bible, the Declaration of Independence or something (other that post 14th Amendment swill) that will give credence to the talking point.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Our border is MORE secure than almost all other countries on the planet....except for Israel that is forced to employ fascist tactics.

LMAO. Every progressive Leftist in this forum is also an anti Semite. It’s a disease.

Who do you think funds and pioneers the build the wall talking points?

Then again, you might be playing semantics with that term "anti-semite."

Border Patrol agents want it. That to me is first and foremost in importance. Progressive Left is anti Semitic. That is also a fact.

I don't give a rip what Border Patrol agents want. They work for the taxpayers. Who do you think researched and wrote the talking points that the build the wall guys rely on?

After reading your first sentence I realize that you are a mindless fool. You don’t respect those who risk their lives on the frontlines. You can go and jump in a frozen lake.

Don't lecture me, poseur. I've spent more time on the front lines than you've spent fretting over this issue.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

They can see me for what they like. That won't make it true. As I told you, there are two questions they've never asked me. Their entire world is, much like yours, if you don't buy the build the wall solution as being the only solution, you're an open borders liberal.

If you can't understand, after I've defined what you told me, that YOU are a liberal Democrat, then you are less intelligent than I ever dreamed. You should do some self introspection and then say, if I want to make a difference in the future of my nation and my culture, MAYBE I should STFU, do some studying, and figure out what this is all about.

You're so hung up on trying to peg me that you have no clue as to where I stand. You even ignore the hints. It's like someone is needed to bash you in the head with a rock before you understand: There are many sides to this issue and most people have serious flaws with their proposed solutions.

Every person arguing for a wall could not convince a jury. The recent turnover in the House of Representatives should tell you how ineffective your position is. In order to win, you'd have to be able to make the other guy's argument for him and do a better job than he does. You don't have a freaking clue as to where I stand and you end up making some of the most idiotic statements known to God or man.

That is why you're in the same boat the followers of Jim Jones were in.

Yes, you gained seats in the House, but lost them in the Senate. And if you bother to look at the results, you'd see that both parties had an outstanding and historical turnout. It's just that the hatred of the Democrats won over. But Trump supporters are still behind him as they were during the presidential election.

Nobody ever said the wall is the sole solution. You are making up that BS in your head. The wall (as border patrol stated) is a very helpful part of the solution. The solution is multi-level. The sole solution would be to get the Congress to pass a law making being here illegally a first degree felony with a minimum five year prison sentence. Then there would be no need for a wall, no need for e-veryfiy, no need for additional border agents, no need to track down illegals here. Most of them would pack up and leave the country.

I know quite well what this is all about--you don't. You remain ignorant of the long term goals by the Democrat party yet support their initiatives and furthermore claim yourself as a conservative.

I have endured your dumbassery long enough. I didn't win a damn thing Ray as I voted Republican. I don't support Democracy - not in name, not by party, not by ideology. YOU DO and I'm sick and tired of your dishonesty so I'll treat you like you treat me.

You have one standard. If someone does not back the silly wall, they are a liberal, etc. THAT is what separates you from others with an IQ higher than their shoe size.

If you had ANY IQ, you would know why Congress can pass no such law as you suggest. My only point to you is that we are restricted by the parameters of the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings in what kind of legislation we an pass.

You have proven to be a fake, a phony, a fraud, and a poseur. YOU adopted Bill Clinton's philosophy and have your head stuck so far up the liberals ass that if they fart, you will choke to death or get your first breath of air.

Now, you've called me a liberal for the last time. Put up, shut up or get ready for a nasty back and forth. Enough of this B.S. You didn't know what an unalienable Right is so you don't have a clue when you advocate withholding one or denying one to someone. You would have to kill me Ray in order to do some of the things you propose. My Rights are unalienable. You cannot take them; you cannot impose on them. To even suggest it shows that YOU ARE NOT EVEN AN AMERICAN.

You should start at post #2806. Read it and then cull through those 500 posts so you can see the number of times you LIED, called me names and tried to deflect when asked direct questions. It's not my fault that the left misled you and made a socialist out of you. Now, you want a discussion or a pissing match?

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

Your issue is not a conservative one. It was the view of the Democrats BEFORE they sold you a pig in a poke. I'm going out to breakfast right now. After church I will have a message just for you.

In the mean time, you should pray. The Bible says by what measure you've judged me, you will be judged. You have still failed to ask two important questions. So I'm not going to answer them; just allow you to keep digging that pit deeper and deeper so you can't climb out. Later.

Whatever fatty

Fatty? I'd bet I'm in better shape than you.

 

[bripat9643]

They do the job............I agree with it..........Your one opinion doesn't outweigh our opinion...

It might. Because it's not just one person who thinks you're a bunch of insecure cowards. A lot of people in the US want our country to be a beacon for freedom. And we'll fight your efforts to turn it into a gulag.

If anybody is trying to turn our country into a gulag it's you people. Bring in cheap labor, let them work for next to nothing because it's better than what they have at home. The only way to survive is stuffing 15 people in a three bedroom apartment or home. People crawling on each other like animals.

Dblack is a Libertarian aka cheap, selfish piece of shit.
I know more than a few of them and they are the most unhappy people you will ever encounter.

Well, I'm a libertarian. I don't think they are the most unhappy people you will ever encounter. There is a strain among libertarians that believe in unlimited immigration. That might be fine in a libertarian country where all property is privately owned, but that isn't where we live.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You don't bother to read, do you? It is YOUR position that the jobs created are for the American people. That has nothing to do with your immigration argument. You are afraid to separate the two.

You have FINALLY been half honest with me, Ray. Your REAL objective is to keep people out of the United States. If you look back, it wasn't that hard, Ray.

I've always been honest about it, but you never cared for what I said.

Me being against immigration is for several reason, not just one. I've listed several of them, but there are actually more. And if you list those negatives of immigration vs so-called positives, you will find the negative beats the positive three to one.

If you were being honest, then you were ignorant and need to do some reading in several areas: general civics, history, law and constitutional interpretation.

That, most likely, explains why you try to pass me off as a liberal or a moderate instead of answering questions as they are asked of you.

Pretexts are not reasons. They are just that. For example, in my neighborhood, there are PLENTY of jobs almost anyone with an IQ higher than their shoe size can get. Most pay between $20 and $40 an hour. When they don't take them and Hispanics show up, I work them.

NOWHERE in that scenario does it give you any indication of where I stand on the issue. But, sometimes I need things done and have to work within a budget. If Americans don't apply for the jobs, I either get the help I need or lose what I own. It's that simple. Do you realize I've been at this for four decades now and not one single time has one of the people wanting a wall and bitching about jobs EVER walked away from their computer and applied for a job that I told them about?

Penalties

CIVIL VIOLATIONS

• Knowingly hired, or to have knowingly recruited or referred for a fee, an unauthorized alien for employment in the United States or to have knowingly continued to employ an unauthorized alien in the United States
• Failing to comply with Form I-9 employment verification requirements
• Committing or participating in document fraud for satisfying a requirement or benefit of the employment verification process or the INA
• Committing document abuse
• Unlawful discrimination against an employment-authorized individual in hiring, firing, or recruitment or referral for a fee
• Failing to notify DHS of a Final Nonconfirmation (FNC) of an employee’s employment eligibility
• Requiring an individual to post a bond or security or to pay an amount or otherwise to provide financial guarantee or indemnity against any potential liability arising under the employment verification requirements

CRIMINAL VIOLATIONS

• Engaging in a pattern or practice of hiring, recruiting or referring for a fee unauthorized aliens

What Is the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA)?

What does IRCA mean to employers?
Obviously, employers cannot hire immigrants who are not authorized to work in the U.S. All workers must fit into one of the four following categories:

1. U.S. citizen
2. noncitizen national
3. lawful permanent resident
4. alien authorized to work

To check work authorization, the federal government requires a Form I-9 be filled out for every employee upon hire. This applies to U.S. citizens, too. The employee will fill out the first section and indicate their work authorization classification.

You should READ this thread. Let's start you out with post # 2806. I'll come back later and start the discussion all over since you are not going to read the freaking thing.

I responded to your talking points regarding your hiring illegals.............and made valid points to those comments......You are breaking the law by hiring them. Only problem being as I discussed.

Fix that law.........and you wouldn't get a pass for hiring them. You know you are hiring illegals........You know you are breaking the law...........but have a legal loop hole out............saying I didn't know later.

See my response to Ray about Liberty.