Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[sealybobo]

The democrat version of this story doesn't have a happy ending, does it?

I don’t remember any wars on Clinton or Obama’s watch but Iraq 1&2 and Afghan war all on Bush 1&2s watch.

 

[Manonthestreet]

The democrat version of this story doesn't have a happy ending, does it?

I don’t remember any wars on Clinton or Obama’s watch but Iraq 1&2 and Afghan war all on Bush 1&2s watch.

Syria Libya....adventurism all over Africa....Africom expanded huge

 

[MaryL]

What is so funny about my post? I am feeling like Elvis Costello. Peace love & understanding. So, If ya' all want to keep the wankers out, don't hire them! Make them Prove their national identity with state sanctioned national identity card linked to their, DNA, Fingerprints. Things that are verifiable. Might be cheaper and more effective than building a wall on the southern border. But let's keep up cheap petty appearances, like "Border walls". Bully.

What's so funny, you said walls don't word in-spite of all the evidence to the contrary. The fact is they do work, that's why the border patrol is asking for more. If you don't like how it looks, do an about face, problem solved.

.

Love ya'all. Good fences make for good neighbors. We have liberal assholes that give illegal aliens freebies . Sanctuary cities. Now, nobody got to vote on whether or not their home town became a sanctuary city, that was so much a liberal cadre " They just presumed they could get away with" thing. Sanctuary cities? Seems that was a overriding Constitutional issue people ignore. Who got to vote to give their city / state ignore federal immigration laws? I didn't, did any of you? Was it on a ballot anywhere? Because, that a pretty significant issue. Ignoring the will of the people and constitutional laws.

 

[Flopper]

They get paid to do a job and if I have to give up my Liberties for what they want, they can pound sand.

How does their ask for a wall infringe on your liberties?

If people will give me a freaking break, I'll give you the post number, but it's been asked and answered in depth.

If police officers ask for guns should we not give them guns because in someone’s opinion it infringes on their liberties? I find that odd.

Are you drunk? What in the HELL did that mean?

I would never advocate giving up your gun.

But you’re OK denying border agents another form of protection they feel they need?

Who exactly are these border agents; the ones Trump's Customs and Border Protection Director hand picked for Trump's border barrier infomercial at the white house?

Border Patrol agents on the front lines say they need more technology and additional personnel to curb the illegal traffic, according to a report released on Thursday by Democrats on the Senate Homeland Security Committee. Less than one half of 1 percent of the agents’ suggested a border wall.
What Border Agents Say They Want (It’s Not a Wall)

 

[danielpalos]

Our Constitution proports the idea : NO ONE is above the law. Even people that skirt immigration law. And when local and state officials seem to think they can transcend that and local voters, and the well being of Americans in general, that is too much. This has got to end. I hold that Sanctuary cities are Unconstitutional, and we need to examine that.

nobody takes the right wing seriuosly about the law, Constitutional or otherwise. We don't have an immigration clause we have an establishment clause for naturalization.

 

[MaryL]

What is so funny about my post? I am feeling like Elvis Costello. Peace love & understanding. So, If ya' all want to keep the wankers out, don't hire them! Make them Prove their national identity with state sanctioned national identity card linked to their, DNA, Fingerprints. Things that are verifiable. Might be cheaper and more effective than building a wall on the southern border. But let's keep up cheap petty appearances, like "Border walls". Bully.

Border walls isn’t just about immigration. Do you remember the Jacob Chambers Case under the Obama Administration? You might remember it as Eric Holder botching what was otherwise called “Fast and Furious”. The left will tell me the failure of strict gun regulations to stop rising gun violence, is due to illegal guns filtering across from outside state lines. However, the left favors “open borders” on the US / Mexican border where guns are filtering in this country. How does open borders stop the democrats position of desiring more gun regulations and stopping gun violence? Actually they are their own problem.

What a wall DOES do is make those who wish to enter, use designated access points to enter the United States. We have designated access points in Canada, so this preventing people the liberty to freely cross the border is inaccurate, unproven, and false.

You also have MS-13 gang violence which has made their way to the United States from Mexico. Do Democrats have any answers to my of these problems I addressed here? No.

Also, Harry Reid was strongly opposed to illegals entering this country. He provided actual researched statistics as well as cost burdens, which I posted on this thread with a video. So why the big change to now support what they once was so sternly opposed?

I think this is a far deeper Constitutional issue. When we have liberals enabling people that ignore immigration laws, and ignoring the wishes of the people to enable the violators empower those that exploit them, that isn't what America is about. Well, unless we have just become a bunch of amoral nihilist manipulators.

 

[Flopper]

"If Kushner (Trump) trades amnesty for a wall, history books will have to be pulled from the shelves to replace "Neville Chamberlain" with "Donald Trump."

If Kushner (Trump) trades DACA amnesty for a wall, Neville Chamberlain can relax. He will hereafter escape history's scorn." - Coulter

A path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants is probably the only thing democrats would accept. Last Spring, they might have accepted a deal involving DACD but not now. Speaking politically, there's no reason for democrats to back down. Trump is taking responsibility for the government shutdown. The majority of Americans support neither building a wall or the government paying for it.

 

[bripat9643]

How does their ask for a wall infringe on your liberties?

If people will give me a freaking break, I'll give you the post number, but it's been asked and answered in depth.

If police officers ask for guns should we not give them guns because in someone’s opinion it infringes on their liberties? I find that odd.

Are you drunk? What in the HELL did that mean?

I would never advocate giving up your gun.

But you’re OK denying border agents another form of protection they feel they need?

Who exactly are these border agents; the ones Trump's Customs and Border Protection Director hand picked for Trump's border barrier infomercial at the white house?

Border Patrol agents on the front lines say they need more technology and additional personnel to curb the illegal traffic, according to a report released on Thursday by Democrats on the Senate Homeland Security Committee. Less than one half of 1 percent of the agents’ suggested a border wall.
What Border Agents Say They Want (It’s Not a Wall)

You just said we can't trust the border agents that Trump chose for his "infomercial," so why should anyone trust the border agents the Democrats picked for their poll?

 

[bripat9643]

"If Kushner (Trump) trades amnesty for a wall, history books will have to be pulled from the shelves to replace "Neville Chamberlain" with "Donald Trump."

If Kushner (Trump) trades DACA amnesty for a wall, Neville Chamberlain can relax. He will hereafter escape history's scorn." - Coulter

A path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants is probably the only thing democrats would accept. Last Spring, they might have accepted a deal involving DACD but not now. Speaking politically, there's no reason for democrats to back down. Trump is taking responsibility for the government shutdown. The majority of Americans support neither building a wall or the government paying for it.

The majority of Americans are not going to accept a blanket amnesty for all illegal aliens, especially without guaranteed security for our border.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Border agents appeared on TV and explicitly stated they wanted a wall because it would help them. This is good enough for me. I thank them for their dangerous service.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

"If Kushner (Trump) trades amnesty for a wall, history books will have to be pulled from the shelves to replace "Neville Chamberlain" with "Donald Trump."

If Kushner (Trump) trades DACA amnesty for a wall, Neville Chamberlain can relax. He will hereafter escape history's scorn." - Coulter

A path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants is probably the only thing democrats would accept. Last Spring, they might have accepted a deal involving DACD but not now. Speaking politically, there's no reason for democrats to back down. Trump is taking responsibility for the government shutdown. The majority of Americans support neither building a wall or the government paying for it.

Path to more Democrat voters you mean? Seems very self serving.

 

[OKTexas]

Saving it from people like you

How are you saving it, by flooding it with ignorant peasants from Mexico?

I've answered this for you three times:

1) I'm working to stop the drug addicts created by parents, government, doctors / mental health officials and Big Pharma

2) We're taking people off the street, helping them get a GED, clean up their record if possible and get them back into the work-force

3) I am constantly lobbying legislators to pass legislation to get them to rehabilitate those in prison by giving prisoners an opportunity to earn shorter sentences via accomplishments while incarcerated: Get their GED, learn a job skill, etc.

Why can you not do this and support more border security?

I do support border security. I simply do not support the wall. It jeopardizes our Liberty.

You can't keep them out without a wall. Cameras and sensors will not stop them from crossing the border. We can't hire enough people to insure every illegal is caught and we don't have enough prisons to house them.

Yep, just like surveillance cameras don't stop all bank robberies. And for the ones that get in, we can start prosecuting those that harbor them by giving them jobs, allowing them to rent housing and ban sanctuary cities nationally, like we did here in TX. There are tons of things that can be done to rid us of these parasites and no I'm not talking about just hispanics.

.

 

[Flopper]

"Per the pool reporter, Trump said this afternoon that he has "informed my folks" that it will be a steel barrier rather than concrete, because: "They don't like concrete so we'll give them steel." (Democrats' issue with the wall is obviously not about which material is used.)"

I think it's always been steel. However, since Trump never gave Congress any specifications as to exactly what he would build, or where he would build it, he could build pretty much anything he wanted anywhere he wants it.

 

[Flopper]

"If Republicans think we have an immigration crisis now, just wait until there are tens of millions of migrants/refugees as the result of climate change."

No, that can't happen. Republicans deny the climate is changing.

 

[MaryL]

I actually have been to the INS. I am appalled that we had so many illegal aliens from ...then I was cut at the knees. In 1993. Apparently it's OK Mexican illegals sneak in and then... Fill in the blank. I have known all these other immigrants from like ...fill in the blank. Immigrants that worked hard to get visas and fulfilled their contracts as immigrants. To be honest, I can't remember most of them. Rumanians? Hungarians? They worked bloody hard to get in here. . They acclimated and respected America. And giving them sanctuary cities? That never happened back in the day.

But, Mexicans? Or Hondurans? How did giving sanctuary cities to people ignoring federal immigration law from Latin America just suddenly happen extra judicially? Anybody get to vote on that sanctuary city stuff? I seem to think that giving people that violate immigration laws immunity from laws is unconstitutional somehow...But that's just me. ​

 

[Flopper]

Border agents appeared on TV and explicitly stated they wanted a wall because it would help them. This is good enough for me. I thank them for their dangerous service.

If you're referring to Trump's infomercial at the White House, those agents were hand picked by the Customs director.

If you really want to know what agents think then you need to read the report prepared by Homeland Security in which they did a survey of hundreds of agents asking them for solutions to the illegal immigration problem. Not surprisingly, only a handful even mention a barrier wall as a solution. Furthermore, Homeland Security has never put a wall in their budget request before Trump.

 

[dblack]

Well, I'm a libertarian

You owe me a keyboard. I just spit coffee all over my desk laughing!

 

[eagle1462010]

I don't give a rip what Border Patrol agents want. They work for the taxpayers. Who do you think researched and wrote the talking points that the build the wall guys rely on?

Yep, they work for us, and we're obligated to give them the tools required to do the job we ask them to do in an effective and safe manner. We already have walls and barriers on roughly 1/3rd of the border. Now you cry babies claim adding an additional 10% will somehow restrict our liberties and would be IMMORAL. REALLY?? That seems to fly in the face of logic.

.

Well, I don't know if adding a couple hundred miles of wall will seriously limit anyone's liberties but it's highly unlike to seriously reduce the number of illegal immigrants. Most of the border will still be unfenced and we are doing nothing to stop the flow coming through ports of entry nor dealing with the fact that most illegal immigrants enter legally. The wall is basically a waste of money and worse yet it deflects the nation's attention away other major problems.

200 miles wont solve the problem, but 1400 miles will. You're attacking a "solution" that no one has proposed. Border crossing is 60% of the problem, but you're saying solving 60% of the problem is a waste of time. You're just an open borders douchebag, or course, who doesn't want to solve the problem.

Visa overstays is another problem that can easily be solved, but douchebags like you have obstructed the solution to that problem as well.

It appears the one genuine obstacle to get real border security is douchebags like you.

The difference between border crossers and VISA overstays is the VISA people have been vetted. The people jumping our border could have Lord knows what kind of diseases, Lord knows what minimal education, and Lord knows what kind of criminal record. I'm sure many of them don't even know a word of English.

Therefore border crossers have to be a priority over VISA overstays because it's not just about them being here illegally, it's more about our safety and culture.

Ray, You never responded to posts 3475 and 3476. So, I will try yet again. Here is part III - a continuation to see if you will keep your word:

Part III


I’m saving my best stuff for last, but I wanted to continue on answering Ray (who is too ashamed to respond to his request that I tell him what Liberties are lost with the wall.


If you throw a rock into a still pond, it makes a lot of ripples. One right wing book I read called Unintended Consequences by John Ross. It is a fictional novel based upon current laws and how they could be used in an anti-gun scenario. It demonstrates how one action may impact another.

When I was a teen, I spoke out publicly and was then recruited by the Young Republicans Club and the John Birch Society not to mention other organizations and I became hard core right. Since then, my major theme has not changed; the movement has. Those who want a wall around the southern border refuse to answer a few simple questions:

If unalienable Rights exist – and I think they do, WHERE in the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation or the Constitution did our leaders ever presume to take those from people who are not citizens? What proof can they offer us that foreigners were not born with unalienable Rights? They keep accusing me of taking a stand I have NOT taken. I’m asking them for proof of their position.

Unable to do that they call me a lot of names that they cannot back up. But, I want to remind them of a few things:

If you go back to the mid to late 1990s the John Birch Society, Concern Conservative Citizens Society, Young Republicans Club, etc. were AGAINST the New World Order, One World Government, the abolition of jurisdictions,the Constitution Free Zone, militarized police, National ID, surveillance society, the unconstitutional 14th and 16th Amendments (neither passing constitutional muster), and the assaults on religion. They fought gun control, eminent domain abuses, and warrant less search and seizures. Probably, the last great effort to gain national attention was Alex Jones video POLICE STATE 2000 (put out in the late 1980s) and a book called Operation Vampire Killer 2000 (written in the early 1990s by Jack McLamb of Police Against the New World Order.)

Operation Vampire Killer 2000 - The Lawful Path


If one were to return to that era, the uninformed build the wall guys, would swear and be damned the conservatives were the liberals. Well, the right adopted the left’s solutions:



Meanwhile, the left has jumped on the privacy bandwagon, warning Americans about the Constitution Free Zone:






Reminds me of the old Johnny Cash song The One on the Right is on the Left.

Anyway, with the wall up, it will immediately affect your Liberties in about a dozen ways. For this installment, I’ll list three:


1 There will be the strict enforcement of the Constitution Free Zone. There will go your Fourth Amendment Rights FOREVER. Right now, you can still fight back to regain those Rights

2 The right already passed the National ID / REAL ID Act – E Verify which is far worse than what Hitler had AND it reeks of Orwellian nightmares that today’s youth cannot begin to fathom. It will expand into drones and listening devices being used against them 24 / 7 / 365 from the womb to the tomb

3 As if the suspension of constitutional guarantees and total surveillance aren’t enough, the nutty wall gives the government the ability to track your every financial transaction based on your SSN / National ID card.


I mention this because a lot of people have NO intention of surrendering their firearms AND they expect an internal war due to government over-reach. The unintended consequences of this nutty wall idea will give government access to so much information they will know you built your own weapon without you ever having registered it. If you think you or the next generation may have to go up against a tyrannical government, you just handicapped them and endangered their lives with this lobbying effort. We got a long way to go.

And I've lived through all of that..............It was 1996 that Billy Boy talked about border security and Fencing. It was all a lead up to the elections..............imagine that.

In 2006.......the same that complain about the wall and border security were talking just like Trump. Passed the Act and shouted we will secure the Southern Border.........right before an election ..........imagine that.

Trump election.........hot topic .......imagine that...............

In 1986 Reagan pushed for border security..........granted Amnesty even though the people didn't really like it...but it promised to stop them from going to work...........didn't work...........they went around it ........and started a ID forgery ring to give them fake IDs.................Then didn't prosecute the businesses because they so called didn't know......and if caught ..........oh well........pay the fine......illegals deported........and it's over..............imagine that.

This is not a new issue in this country..........since I was a kid it's been a hot topic...........always to secure the border...........and always the establishment not really wanting to secure the borders.

Your trying to say the POLAR SHIFT of the parties........well. ........Politicians shift for votes with the prevailing wind. They have always done this...........and never intended to stop illegal immigration.........the PEOPLE HAVE........Since I was a child...............This is not new...............and extra security at the border, with infrastructure is what I have wanted........and the people have wanted for DECADES...............

You are DANCING...........playing the POLITICAL GAME...........when the people have wanted this done for a long long time.

Build the Wall and increase the ability of CBP to do their job............what they are asking for is well documented......and have proven results......That is my position..........and no amount of your posturing is going to change that.

 

[Flopper]

I actually have been to the INS. I am appalled that we had so many illegal aliens from ...then I was cut at the ankles. In 1993. Apparently it's OK Mexican illegals sneak in and then...and THEN. I damn, I have known all these other immigrants from like ...fill in the blank. To be honest, I can't remember most of them. Rumanians? Hungarians? And giving them sanctuary cities? That never happened back in the day.

But, Mexicans? Or Hondurans? How did giving sanctuary cities to people ignoring federal immigration law from Latin America just suddenly happen extra judicially. Anybody get to vote on that sanctuary city stuff? I seem to think that giving people that violate immigration laws immunity from laws is unconstitutional somehow...But that's just me. ​

There are over 500 sanctuary cities in America and there is no specific definition of the term "sanctuary city". At one extreme, cities have vowed to stop deportations of it's people. Other cities have passed resolutions to not cooperated with federal immigration in any way while others have been specific as to what cooperation they will offer. At the other end of the spectrum cities such as the one I reside have issued proclamations welcoming all people to their city regardless of citizenship status.

I don't think there's anyway the federal government can force cities to cooperate with INS. The Trump administration might be able to withhold federal funds to the city law enforcement but for most cities that's a very small part of their budget. Holding back major funds for schools, healthcare, roads, etc won't fly.

 

[OKTexas]

I don't give a rip what Border Patrol agents want. They work for the taxpayers. Who do you think researched and wrote the talking points that the build the wall guys rely on?

Yep, they work for us, and we're obligated to give them the tools required to do the job we ask them to do in an effective and safe manner. We already have walls and barriers on roughly 1/3rd of the border. Now you cry babies claim adding an additional 10% will somehow restrict our liberties and would be IMMORAL. REALLY?? That seems to fly in the face of logic.

.

Well, I don't know if adding a couple hundred miles of wall will seriously limit anyone's liberties but it's highly unlike to seriously reduce the number of illegal immigrants. Most of the border will still be unfenced and we are doing nothing to stop the flow coming through ports of entry nor dealing with the fact that most illegal immigrants enter legally. The wall is basically a waste of money and worse yet it deflects the nation's attention away other major problems.

200 miles wont solve the problem, but 1400 miles will. You're attacking a "solution" that no one has proposed. Border crossing is 60% of the problem, but you're saying solving 60% of the problem is a waste of time. You're just an open borders douchebag, or course, who doesn't want to solve the problem.

Visa overstays is another problem that can easily be solved, but douchebags like you have obstructed the solution to that problem as well.

It appears the one genuine obstacle to get real border security is douchebags like you.

The difference between border crossers and VISA overstays is the VISA people have been vetted. The people jumping our border could have Lord knows what kind of diseases, Lord knows what minimal education, and Lord knows what kind of criminal record. I'm sure many of them don't even know a word of English.

Therefore border crossers have to be a priority over VISA overstays because it's not just about them being here illegally, it's more about our safety and culture.

Ray, You never responded to posts 3475 and 3476. So, I will try yet again. Here is part III - a continuation to see if you will keep your word:

Part III


I’m saving my best stuff for last, but I wanted to continue on answering Ray (who is too ashamed to respond to his request that I tell him what Liberties are lost with the wall.


If you throw a rock into a still pond, it makes a lot of ripples. One right wing book I read called Unintended Consequences by John Ross. It is a fictional novel based upon current laws and how they could be used in an anti-gun scenario. It demonstrates how one action may impact another.

When I was a teen, I spoke out publicly and was then recruited by the Young Republicans Club and the John Birch Society not to mention other organizations and I became hard core right. Since then, my major theme has not changed; the movement has. Those who want a wall around the southern border refuse to answer a few simple questions:

If unalienable Rights exist – and I think they do, WHERE in the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation or the Constitution did our leaders ever presume to take those from people who are not citizens? What proof can they offer us that foreigners were not born with unalienable Rights? They keep accusing me of taking a stand I have NOT taken. I’m asking them for proof of their position.

Unable to do that they call me a lot of names that they cannot back up. But, I want to remind them of a few things:

If you go back to the mid to late 1990s the John Birch Society, Concern Conservative Citizens Society, Young Republicans Club, etc. were AGAINST the New World Order, One World Government, the abolition of jurisdictions,the Constitution Free Zone, militarized police, National ID, surveillance society, the unconstitutional 14th and 16th Amendments (neither passing constitutional muster), and the assaults on religion. They fought gun control, eminent domain abuses, and warrant less search and seizures. Probably, the last great effort to gain national attention was Alex Jones video POLICE STATE 2000 (put out in the late 1980s) and a book called Operation Vampire Killer 2000 (written in the early 1990s by Jack McLamb of Police Against the New World Order.)

Operation Vampire Killer 2000 - The Lawful Path


If one were to return to that era, the uninformed build the wall guys, would swear and be damned the conservatives were the liberals. Well, the right adopted the left’s solutions:



Meanwhile, the left has jumped on the privacy bandwagon, warning Americans about the Constitution Free Zone:






Reminds me of the old Johnny Cash song The One on the Right is on the Left.

Anyway, with the wall up, it will immediately affect your Liberties in about a dozen ways. For this installment, I’ll list three:


1 There will be the strict enforcement of the Constitution Free Zone. There will go your Fourth Amendment Rights FOREVER. Right now, you can still fight back to regain those Rights

2 The right already passed the National ID / REAL ID Act – E Verify which is far worse than what Hitler had AND it reeks of Orwellian nightmares that today’s youth cannot begin to fathom. It will expand into drones and listening devices being used against them 24 / 7 / 365 from the womb to the tomb

3 As if the suspension of constitutional guarantees and total surveillance aren’t enough, the nutty wall gives the government the ability to track your every financial transaction based on your SSN / National ID card.


I mention this because a lot of people have NO intention of surrendering their firearms AND they expect an internal war due to government over-reach. The unintended consequences of this nutty wall idea will give government access to so much information they will know you built your own weapon without you ever having registered it. If you think you or the next generation may have to go up against a tyrannical government, you just handicapped them and endangered their lives with this lobbying effort. We got a long way to go.

Damn, you're such a silly child. No constitutional amendment, beyond the first 10, which emphasized constitutional principles, would pass constitutional muster until they are ratified by the States. That's why we do amendments and the whole point of the Article 5 process.

Also this myth of Constitution free zones is a great conspiracy theory, but it doesn't reflect reality. Otherwise we could just heard illegals into the Rio Grand and see if they can swim.

So now we know you're just another conspiracy nut, who I doubt will be around these forums very long.

.