Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

I have endured your dumbassery long enough. I didn't win a damn thing Ray as I voted Republican. I don't support Democracy - not in name, not by party, not by ideology. YOU DO and I'm sick and tired of your dishonesty so I'll treat you like you treat me.

You have one standard. If someone does not back the silly wall, they are a liberal, etc. THAT is what separates you from others with an IQ higher than their shoe size.

If you had ANY IQ, you would know why Congress can pass no such law as you suggest. My only point to you is that we are restricted by the parameters of the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings in what kind of legislation we an pass.

You have proven to be a fake, a phony, a fraud, and a poseur. YOU adopted Bill Clinton's philosophy and have your head stuck so far up the liberals ass that if they fart, you will choke to death or get your first breath of air.

Now, you've called me a liberal for the last time. Put up, shut up or get ready for a nasty back and forth. Enough of this B.S. You didn't know what an unalienable Right is so you don't have a clue when you advocate withholding one or denying one to someone. You would have to kill me Ray in order to do some of the things you propose. My Rights are unalienable. You cannot take them; you cannot impose on them. To even suggest it shows that YOU ARE NOT EVEN AN AMERICAN.

You should start at post #2806. Read it and then cull through those 500 posts so you can see the number of times you LIED, called me names and tried to deflect when asked direct questions. It's not my fault that the left misled you and made a socialist out of you. Now, you want a discussion or a pissing match?

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

I promised you a response. It takes two parts. Here is the first part, the second one to follow:

Ray, challenging me on a subject you have shown an absolute ignorant and /or disdain of can be very costly. To begin with, the build the wall guys say if you are not for a wall, you are a liberal, lefty, etc. That is absolutely idiotic as we shall see.

The way I view the topic is best described in an analogy. In this analogy a man is stuck in a burning apartment on the third floor of a building (this part of the analogy describes our situation in America.) If this man stays in his current position, he dies. If the man goes out the door, there is a 100 percent chance that he will be killed (that part of the analogy refers to the nutty wall idea.) If he jumps out the window, the fall might kill him, but then again, he might live. That part of the analogy refers to a solution OTHER THAN the nutty wall idea.

I am neither pro-open borders NOR am I anti – closed borders. So, let’s get that understood and make an attempt to be honest. It’s just that a militarized border with a wall around it will not work in the United States.

The REAL cost of the wall is Liberty. So far, no build the wall guy has addressed the issue of Liberty. In the Declaration of Independence, we find these words:

“WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”

Of this document, the Declaration of Independence, the SCOTUS ruled:

The first official action of this nation declared the foundation of government in these words: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. "While such declaration of principles may not have the force of organic law, or be made the basis of judicial decision as to the limits of right and duty, and while in all cases reference must be had to the organic law of the nation for such limits, yet the latter is but the body and the letter of which the former is the thought and the spirit, and it is always safe to read the letter of the Constitution in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. No duty rests more imperatively upon the courts than the enforcement of those constitutional provisions intended to secure that equality of rights which is the foundation of free government." Cotting v. Godard, 183 U.S. 79 (1901)

The Bible is clear about this subject as well:

“Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land Unto All the Inhabitants thereof” Leviticus 25: 10 and this Bible verse can be found on the Liberty Bell at Independence Hall. This Old Testament verse refers to the "Jubilee", or the instructions to the Israelites to return property and free slaves.every 50 years.

In II Timothy 3: 16 we read that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”

Finally, in II Corinthians 3 : 17 we read that:

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.”

But what is Liberty? Well in a biblical sense, liberty means freedom (see # 1865 in the Greek Dictionary of Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. In law, Liberty means Freedom; exemption from extraneous control. …freedom regulated by law. (Black’s Law Dictionary Fifth Edition)

My take on it is very simple:

In New Jersey, they passed a law requiring people to turn in high capacity magazines… this included even off duty police. Nobody complied? Why? People think the law is unconstitutional. The Right to Life and Liberty are unalienable Rights. The Right to keep and bear Arms is an unalienable Right. It is an extension of both a Right to Life AND a Right to Liberty. So, no matter how many laws are passed, the majority of gun owners will not forfeit that Right. On that issue, they understand the concept.

Those same people would, however, deny to me my Rights and punish me for hiring undocumented foreigners. The sad truth is, just as the feds are usurping the Second Amendment, they are waging a war against your Liberty. Those wanting a wall cannot find any biblical precedent for CONTROLLING people (which was one the first reasons cited to me in favor of a wall) and that was followed up by Ray – falsely believing we can keep people out. What a crock! (Continued in part II)

Now you're forcing me to repeat myself.

That has to be the damned funniest thing I've read on this board. Everyone in our country has rights, but they are also subject to our laws if they abuse those rights. The same damned thing applies to illegal aliens, that's how our LAW refers to them. So take your semantics game and shove it.

Our Constitution doesn't apply to the whole freaking world, the entry of aliens (meaning not of this country) are regulated by our laws. Not by your fantasies.

.

I've repeated myself EIGHT times to Ray. You bitch because you cannot understand one simple thing:

While the Constitution governs us, there are laws above the Constitution

Violating laws can take any right, up to and including life. You can pretend natural laws trump ours, but nature doesn't have law enforcement officers and the only rights aliens have is due process. BTW that's the second time you've pass on my comment with out addressing it directly, what's wrong, can argue with facts?

.

He gets very quiet when YOU are able to back up your position with references, and then challenge him to do the same. Says a lot doesn’t it?

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

In trying to summarize my last post .. It’s not what you HAVE, it’s what you can PROVE. Resumes are only good hainging on someone’s wall

Yeah, this dude has gone form some kind of social worker to now a constitutional lawyer. He hasn't even said why he thinks the 14th was implemented illegally.

.

It's not relevant to the OP and I'd have to explain that while trying to reply to fifty four people attacking me on this thread. If they would STFU and quit repeating the same points, I might be able to give you a hint as to why the 14th was illegally ratified... as if posters are too stupid to Google it.

If it's irrelevant, stop spewing about it.

.

You keep bringing up irrelevant and off topic material. What are you REALLY afraid of?

You're the only making multiple posts claiming the 14th is illegal, and then saying it's irrelevant to the OP. You need to make up our minds.

.

I already asked him to prove how exactly the 14th Amendment was shown to be an “illegal ratification” of the United States Constitution. He has no answer, I’m still waiting.

 

[basquebromance]

if we had the wall, folks wouldnt even bother making the journey. its a dangerous journey

 

[basquebromance]

America is the only country in the history of the world where if you put a foot in our country you get a court case. other countries they say GET OUT or worse. they never show up to their case. thats due to the idiotic ridiculous laws enacted by the Democrats

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Yes, you gained seats in the House, but lost them in the Senate. And if you bother to look at the results, you'd see that both parties had an outstanding and historical turnout. It's just that the hatred of the Democrats won over. But Trump supporters are still behind him as they were during the presidential election.

Nobody ever said the wall is the sole solution. You are making up that BS in your head. The wall (as border patrol stated) is a very helpful part of the solution. The solution is multi-level. The sole solution would be to get the Congress to pass a law making being here illegally a first degree felony with a minimum five year prison sentence. Then there would be no need for a wall, no need for e-veryfiy, no need for additional border agents, no need to track down illegals here. Most of them would pack up and leave the country.

I know quite well what this is all about--you don't. You remain ignorant of the long term goals by the Democrat party yet support their initiatives and furthermore claim yourself as a conservative.

I have endured your dumbassery long enough. I didn't win a damn thing Ray as I voted Republican. I don't support Democracy - not in name, not by party, not by ideology. YOU DO and I'm sick and tired of your dishonesty so I'll treat you like you treat me.

You have one standard. If someone does not back the silly wall, they are a liberal, etc. THAT is what separates you from others with an IQ higher than their shoe size.

If you had ANY IQ, you would know why Congress can pass no such law as you suggest. My only point to you is that we are restricted by the parameters of the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings in what kind of legislation we an pass.

You have proven to be a fake, a phony, a fraud, and a poseur. YOU adopted Bill Clinton's philosophy and have your head stuck so far up the liberals ass that if they fart, you will choke to death or get your first breath of air.

Now, you've called me a liberal for the last time. Put up, shut up or get ready for a nasty back and forth. Enough of this B.S. You didn't know what an unalienable Right is so you don't have a clue when you advocate withholding one or denying one to someone. You would have to kill me Ray in order to do some of the things you propose. My Rights are unalienable. You cannot take them; you cannot impose on them. To even suggest it shows that YOU ARE NOT EVEN AN AMERICAN.

You should start at post #2806. Read it and then cull through those 500 posts so you can see the number of times you LIED, called me names and tried to deflect when asked direct questions. It's not my fault that the left misled you and made a socialist out of you. Now, you want a discussion or a pissing match?

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

Part II of my response to you:

In Jesus Time, there were THREE walls that surrounded Jerusalem, 90 towers stood in the first wall, 14 in the second, and 60 in the third. The third wall was built by Herod Agrippa I. These walls dated back to the time the first one was built in 130 B.C. Yet, very clearly these walls did not work. They did not keep the moneychangers out of the Temple (It didn’t even keep them outside the outer walls) Furthermore, the walls did not keep out the poseurs who claimed to be Israelites, but were in fact, half breed Canaanites that Jesus referred to as the Children of Hell.

America, being a cut above the third world is not Mexico, Canada, etc. NOR are we at war (which is the primary purpose of a wall … OTHER THAN preserving a culture.)

Those who want a wall cite they mythical stories that these foreigners steal jobs – impossible unless you live in a socialist country… and Ray wants to debate the meaning of socialism. Since he previously rejected the dictionary definition, I went directly to the socialists themselves. These are THEIR words, not mine:

“we believe that social and economic decisions should be made by those whom they most affect.

Today, corporate executives who answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stockholders make basic economic decisions affecting millions of people. Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them”

What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

These are Ray’s EXACT sentiments. Ray advocates for that very kind of control as do those who have bothered to answer my questions.

I think it’s time for the build the wall guys, the right, the left, etc. to cut the crap and get real. From where do your Rights come from? If the government give you your rights via your citizenship, then government is your Creator and your God. It’s time to read the Declaration of Independence and the Court cases related thereto.

Under that scenario, you have NO Right to keep and bear Arms, NO Right to Freedom of the Press or Freedom of Speech, No Right to Freedom of Religion, etc. This is NOT multiple choice; it’s either / or.

IF you believe in the foundational principles upon which America was founded, then you accept the fact that unalienable Rights pre-existed before the Constitution was written. Man cannot take them from you. And so, rather than spew this idiotic charge that I’m “pro-open borders,” you have to ask yourself the REAL question:

Is your Liberty a gift from your Creator OR is it bestowed upon you by government? IF you believe in God, you have to find the biblical justification for denying to people their Liberty. Securing the border, protecting America from an invasion, regulating the flow of people are all legal, moral and constitutional. Using the laws to control or keep people out is a violation of their unalienable Rights – unless you think that only Americans have a Right to be in the United States. We don’t have to hire those people; nobody has to do business with them; we don’t have to interact with them and it is OUR politicians that allow them to partake of the privileges of citizenship without becoming citizens. Your real beef is with the politicians.


Either you believe in Liberty or you do not. The build the wall guys understand this so they’ve created this talking point: you’re either for the wall or you are whatever insult they can conjure up. I’m not going to bother calling them names. I pointed out what socialists say and what the word of God says. IF Liberty only applies to Americans, somebody refer me to that section of the Constitution, the Bible, the Declaration of Independence or something (other that post 14th Amendment swill) that will give credence to the talking point.

I'm running in and out of the house so I'll respond as I (if I have time) to read it since brevity is not your skill set.

First of all our country does not belong to the world, it belongs to Americans as founded. Our founding documents were written for this country, not the world. Secondly, our country is not operated by any religion. In fact it's one of the big no-no's in our Constitution. Our founders expected us to believe in various religions, but not have our government run by them.

Biblical teachings were fine in the day. But this is a new day and some are just no longer valid. Be fruitful and multiply is a great theory when you have a thousand people on the planet, not such a great idea when you have 7.5 billion.

Inalienable rights are those you are born with whether you believe in God or not. They come as part of occupying this planet. NOBODY as the inalienable right to enter this country without our permission. Freedom comes after you get here, but you have no freedom until we allow you to enter. Afterwards certain rights apply, and if finally granted citizenship, all rights apply. But nobody from Guatemala has United States rights.

There you are with that dumbassery again - and dishonesty. I have not one time argued inalienable rights. Stick your inalienable rights where the sun don't shine. I'm only concerned with unalienable Rights.

No, they are NOT you stupid asshole.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

How does their ask for a wall infringe on your liberties?

Because the pastor loves everyone, even if everyone winds up homeless.
At least they’re all homeless together.

How many people have YOU helped get a house or an apartment?

Are you referring to professionals and/or blue collar workers who lost their careers due to illegals and Business Visas?

Most are homeless and cannot get a second chance due to B.S. people like you created.

I'm taking a break so flame me while I'm not here. It will show how little class you REALLY have.

Very belligerent. Unfortunate.

Start at post # 2806 and tell me how much B.S. you would have taken before responding to these self appointed gurus in like kind.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Poll: Majority opposes border wall with Mexico

So, is America a Republic or a Democracy?

Enough Americans voted for the wall to put Trump in office along with a butt load of congresscritters in 2016.

.

They voted for Trump, not a majority but enough. The wall was only one of a dozen reasons for the Trump victory. This is why 51% to 69% of Americans say they either oppose building a wall or say it's not a priority.

Tell the mayor of El Paso that the 3500 illegals being dumped in his lap a week because the courts say we can't hold them, that a wall isn't a priority. And that's just ONE city.

.

Why would you want to hold them?

Like with all criminals, to adjudicate their case, they have no assets to assure their appearance in court.

.

Totally non-responsive

 

[Porter Rockwell]

If you weren't being obnoxious and we had a real debate, you'd get your ass beat. That means one on one. You don't pack the gear nor have the brains.

I’m afraid you are delusional.

Stand away from the mirror. You'll be okay.

^^^ Diagnosis: Terminal Projection ^^^

I don't project shit. I bet you can't debate twelve posters at a time.

If you call what you are doing "debate", you are sorely delusional.

If you think I EVER called this ambush a debate, YOU are sorely delusional. It's a lot of name calling by those who made the wall a religion. They cannot answer simple questions and they want to call people names while lying and deflecting.

I'm being required to "debate" (THEIR WORDS) a dozen at a time because not even one of them will leave the comfort of USM and debate on a level playing field. It's an ambush by people who struggle with their own conscience on this issue. See posts 3475 and 3476 for proof.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I have endured your dumbassery long enough. I didn't win a damn thing Ray as I voted Republican. I don't support Democracy - not in name, not by party, not by ideology. YOU DO and I'm sick and tired of your dishonesty so I'll treat you like you treat me.

You have one standard. If someone does not back the silly wall, they are a liberal, etc. THAT is what separates you from others with an IQ higher than their shoe size.

If you had ANY IQ, you would know why Congress can pass no such law as you suggest. My only point to you is that we are restricted by the parameters of the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings in what kind of legislation we an pass.

You have proven to be a fake, a phony, a fraud, and a poseur. YOU adopted Bill Clinton's philosophy and have your head stuck so far up the liberals ass that if they fart, you will choke to death or get your first breath of air.

Now, you've called me a liberal for the last time. Put up, shut up or get ready for a nasty back and forth. Enough of this B.S. You didn't know what an unalienable Right is so you don't have a clue when you advocate withholding one or denying one to someone. You would have to kill me Ray in order to do some of the things you propose. My Rights are unalienable. You cannot take them; you cannot impose on them. To even suggest it shows that YOU ARE NOT EVEN AN AMERICAN.

You should start at post #2806. Read it and then cull through those 500 posts so you can see the number of times you LIED, called me names and tried to deflect when asked direct questions. It's not my fault that the left misled you and made a socialist out of you. Now, you want a discussion or a pissing match?

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

I promised you a response. It takes two parts. Here is the first part, the second one to follow:

Ray, challenging me on a subject you have shown an absolute ignorant and /or disdain of can be very costly. To begin with, the build the wall guys say if you are not for a wall, you are a liberal, lefty, etc. That is absolutely idiotic as we shall see.

The way I view the topic is best described in an analogy. In this analogy a man is stuck in a burning apartment on the third floor of a building (this part of the analogy describes our situation in America.) If this man stays in his current position, he dies. If the man goes out the door, there is a 100 percent chance that he will be killed (that part of the analogy refers to the nutty wall idea.) If he jumps out the window, the fall might kill him, but then again, he might live. That part of the analogy refers to a solution OTHER THAN the nutty wall idea.

I am neither pro-open borders NOR am I anti – closed borders. So, let’s get that understood and make an attempt to be honest. It’s just that a militarized border with a wall around it will not work in the United States.

The REAL cost of the wall is Liberty. So far, no build the wall guy has addressed the issue of Liberty. In the Declaration of Independence, we find these words:

“WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”

Of this document, the Declaration of Independence, the SCOTUS ruled:

The first official action of this nation declared the foundation of government in these words: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. "While such declaration of principles may not have the force of organic law, or be made the basis of judicial decision as to the limits of right and duty, and while in all cases reference must be had to the organic law of the nation for such limits, yet the latter is but the body and the letter of which the former is the thought and the spirit, and it is always safe to read the letter of the Constitution in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. No duty rests more imperatively upon the courts than the enforcement of those constitutional provisions intended to secure that equality of rights which is the foundation of free government." Cotting v. Godard, 183 U.S. 79 (1901)

The Bible is clear about this subject as well:

“Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land Unto All the Inhabitants thereof” Leviticus 25: 10 and this Bible verse can be found on the Liberty Bell at Independence Hall. This Old Testament verse refers to the "Jubilee", or the instructions to the Israelites to return property and free slaves.every 50 years.

In II Timothy 3: 16 we read that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”

Finally, in II Corinthians 3 : 17 we read that:

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.”

But what is Liberty? Well in a biblical sense, liberty means freedom (see # 1865 in the Greek Dictionary of Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. In law, Liberty means Freedom; exemption from extraneous control. …freedom regulated by law. (Black’s Law Dictionary Fifth Edition)

My take on it is very simple:

In New Jersey, they passed a law requiring people to turn in high capacity magazines… this included even off duty police. Nobody complied? Why? People think the law is unconstitutional. The Right to Life and Liberty are unalienable Rights. The Right to keep and bear Arms is an unalienable Right. It is an extension of both a Right to Life AND a Right to Liberty. So, no matter how many laws are passed, the majority of gun owners will not forfeit that Right. On that issue, they understand the concept.

Those same people would, however, deny to me my Rights and punish me for hiring undocumented foreigners. The sad truth is, just as the feds are usurping the Second Amendment, they are waging a war against your Liberty. Those wanting a wall cannot find any biblical precedent for CONTROLLING people (which was one the first reasons cited to me in favor of a wall) and that was followed up by Ray – falsely believing we can keep people out. What a crock! (Continued in part II)

Now you're forcing me to repeat myself.

That has to be the damned funniest thing I've read on this board. Everyone in our country has rights, but they are also subject to our laws if they abuse those rights. The same damned thing applies to illegal aliens, that's how our LAW refers to them. So take your semantics game and shove it.

Our Constitution doesn't apply to the whole freaking world, the entry of aliens (meaning not of this country) are regulated by our laws. Not by your fantasies.

.

I've repeated myself EIGHT times to Ray. You bitch because you cannot understand one simple thing:

While the Constitution governs us, there are laws above the Constitution

Violating laws can take any right, up to and including life. You can pretend natural laws trump ours, but nature doesn't have law enforcement officers and the only rights aliens have is due process. BTW that's the second time you've passed on my comment with out addressing it directly, what's wrong, can't argue with facts?

.

I have asked you innumerable questions that you have chosen to pass on. Who in the Hell do you think you are? God? I don't owe you spit. Just you say something don't make you God and I'm not obliged to answer you when you've spent the balance of your time on this thread lying and trying to be a damn bully.

You answer my questions, I'll answer yours - and HELL no I won't look through this mess to find them for you. You may have a few lap dogs that believe crap you say just because they want to believe it, but that don't make it true and it will NEVER add up to a fact.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

I promised you a response. It takes two parts. Here is the first part, the second one to follow:

Ray, challenging me on a subject you have shown an absolute ignorant and /or disdain of can be very costly. To begin with, the build the wall guys say if you are not for a wall, you are a liberal, lefty, etc. That is absolutely idiotic as we shall see.

The way I view the topic is best described in an analogy. In this analogy a man is stuck in a burning apartment on the third floor of a building (this part of the analogy describes our situation in America.) If this man stays in his current position, he dies. If the man goes out the door, there is a 100 percent chance that he will be killed (that part of the analogy refers to the nutty wall idea.) If he jumps out the window, the fall might kill him, but then again, he might live. That part of the analogy refers to a solution OTHER THAN the nutty wall idea.

I am neither pro-open borders NOR am I anti – closed borders. So, let’s get that understood and make an attempt to be honest. It’s just that a militarized border with a wall around it will not work in the United States.

The REAL cost of the wall is Liberty. So far, no build the wall guy has addressed the issue of Liberty. In the Declaration of Independence, we find these words:

“WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”

Of this document, the Declaration of Independence, the SCOTUS ruled:

The first official action of this nation declared the foundation of government in these words: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. "While such declaration of principles may not have the force of organic law, or be made the basis of judicial decision as to the limits of right and duty, and while in all cases reference must be had to the organic law of the nation for such limits, yet the latter is but the body and the letter of which the former is the thought and the spirit, and it is always safe to read the letter of the Constitution in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. No duty rests more imperatively upon the courts than the enforcement of those constitutional provisions intended to secure that equality of rights which is the foundation of free government." Cotting v. Godard, 183 U.S. 79 (1901)

The Bible is clear about this subject as well:

“Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land Unto All the Inhabitants thereof” Leviticus 25: 10 and this Bible verse can be found on the Liberty Bell at Independence Hall. This Old Testament verse refers to the "Jubilee", or the instructions to the Israelites to return property and free slaves.every 50 years.

In II Timothy 3: 16 we read that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”

Finally, in II Corinthians 3 : 17 we read that:

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.”

But what is Liberty? Well in a biblical sense, liberty means freedom (see # 1865 in the Greek Dictionary of Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. In law, Liberty means Freedom; exemption from extraneous control. …freedom regulated by law. (Black’s Law Dictionary Fifth Edition)

My take on it is very simple:

In New Jersey, they passed a law requiring people to turn in high capacity magazines… this included even off duty police. Nobody complied? Why? People think the law is unconstitutional. The Right to Life and Liberty are unalienable Rights. The Right to keep and bear Arms is an unalienable Right. It is an extension of both a Right to Life AND a Right to Liberty. So, no matter how many laws are passed, the majority of gun owners will not forfeit that Right. On that issue, they understand the concept.

Those same people would, however, deny to me my Rights and punish me for hiring undocumented foreigners. The sad truth is, just as the feds are usurping the Second Amendment, they are waging a war against your Liberty. Those wanting a wall cannot find any biblical precedent for CONTROLLING people (which was one the first reasons cited to me in favor of a wall) and that was followed up by Ray – falsely believing we can keep people out. What a crock! (Continued in part II)

Now you're forcing me to repeat myself.

That has to be the damned funniest thing I've read on this board. Everyone in our country has rights, but they are also subject to our laws if they abuse those rights. The same damned thing applies to illegal aliens, that's how our LAW refers to them. So take your semantics game and shove it.

Our Constitution doesn't apply to the whole freaking world, the entry of aliens (meaning not of this country) are regulated by our laws. Not by your fantasies.

.

I've repeated myself EIGHT times to Ray. You bitch because you cannot understand one simple thing:

While the Constitution governs us, there are laws above the Constitution

Violating laws can take any right, up to and including life. You can pretend natural laws trump ours, but nature doesn't have law enforcement officers and the only rights aliens have is due process. BTW that's the second time you've pass on my comment with out addressing it directly, what's wrong, can argue with facts?

.

He gets very quiet when YOU are able to back up your position with references, and then challenge him to do the same. Says a lot doesn’t it?

I didn't get quiet. I quit letting the dumb asses ambush me and the truth is, after more than SIX attempts, none of you have offered to answer the questions I asked first. Quiet? Open challenge to any one of you to meet me one on one off this board in a REAL debate.

I haven't finished my rant about Liberty yet. See posts 3475 and 3476

 

[Porter Rockwell]

If people will give me a freaking break, I'll give you the post number, but it's been asked and answered in depth.

If police officers ask for guns should we not give them guns because in someone’s opinion it infringes on their liberties? I find that odd.

Are you drunk? What in the HELL did that mean?

I would never advocate giving up your gun.

But you’re OK denying border agents another form of protection they feel they need?

The public Liberty comes first. What did Franklin say about trading Essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety.?

What did he say about safety with no trade of liberty?

If you knew, you would not be doing it every day - IF you were a REAL American.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Yeah, this dude has gone form some kind of social worker to now a constitutional lawyer. He hasn't even said why he thinks the 14th was implemented illegally.

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It's not relevant to the OP and I'd have to explain that while trying to reply to fifty four people attacking me on this thread. If they would STFU and quit repeating the same points, I might be able to give you a hint as to why the 14th was illegally ratified... as if posters are too stupid to Google it.

If it's irrelevant, stop spewing about it.

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You keep bringing up irrelevant and off topic material. What are you REALLY afraid of?

You're the only making multiple posts claiming the 14th is illegal, and then saying it's irrelevant to the OP. You need to make up our minds.

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I already asked him to prove how exactly the 14th Amendment was shown to be an “illegal ratification” of the United States Constitution. He has no answer, I’m still waiting.

You can wait until Hell freezes over. I asked questions first and you may think you're God, but you aren't. Besides such a discussion is not the subject of the OP. Open challenge to have a debate on a board of my choosing - where it is you and I and nobody else gets to participate.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

To sneak into Mexico illegally? Lol

Saving it from people like you

How are you saving it, by flooding it with ignorant peasants from Mexico?

I've answered this for you three times:

1) I'm working to stop the drug addicts created by parents, government, doctors / mental health officials and Big Pharma

2) We're taking people off the street, helping them get a GED, clean up their record if possible and get them back into the work-force

3) I am constantly lobbying legislators to pass legislation to get them to rehabilitate those in prison by giving prisoners an opportunity to earn shorter sentences via accomplishments while incarcerated: Get their GED, learn a job skill, etc.

Why can you not do this and support more border security?

I do support border security. I simply do not support the wall. It jeopardizes our Liberty.

You need some new jokes. That wasn't funny.

 

[OKTexas]

That shows how little you know. There is NO debate going on. This is a discussion forum. Pit me against a dozen people so I cannot "debate" someone and then claim a win??? You now know why you are destined to lose.

In my opinion you were debating and you lost badly.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. But if you throw a competitor into a ring and then put him against a dozen other guys, it's pretty damn desperate to claim he lost to any particular one of them.

That is why you guys are so dishonest. I've spent over a thousand posts here, only to watch people like you and Independent change the goal posts, gang up on me and lie to the other posters while deflecting.

Well you did say you didn’t care what our border agents wanted. Pretty heartless imo.

They get paid to do a job and if I have to give up my Liberties for what they want, they can pound sand.

What liberties are you giving up? If you want to hire foreigners, fine, but do it the legal way like everybody else. We allow some foreigners into the country to work. You may have to sponsor them, but it's possible. Can you usher in a slew of people and then pick workers? No you can't, but that has nothing to do with your liberties.

I wonder why he doesn't hire his ex-cons instead of illegals?

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[Porter Rockwell]

In trying to summarize my last post .. It’s not what you HAVE, it’s what you can PROVE. Resumes are only good hainging on someone’s wall

Yeah, this dude has gone form some kind of social worker to now a constitutional lawyer. He hasn't even said why he thinks the 14th was implemented illegally.

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It's not relevant to the OP and I'd have to explain that while trying to reply to fifty four people attacking me on this thread. If they would STFU and quit repeating the same points, I might be able to give you a hint as to why the 14th was illegally ratified... as if posters are too stupid to Google it.

If it's irrelevant, stop spewing about it.

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You keep bringing up irrelevant and off topic material. What are you REALLY afraid of?

You're the only making multiple posts claiming the 14th is illegal, and then saying it's irrelevant to the OP. You need to make up our minds.

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I'm giving you the same amount of information your side gives me. Laundry list for laundry list.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

In my opinion you were debating and you lost badly.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. But if you throw a competitor into a ring and then put him against a dozen other guys, it's pretty damn desperate to claim he lost to any particular one of them.

That is why you guys are so dishonest. I've spent over a thousand posts here, only to watch people like you and Independent change the goal posts, gang up on me and lie to the other posters while deflecting.

Well you did say you didn’t care what our border agents wanted. Pretty heartless imo.

They get paid to do a job and if I have to give up my Liberties for what they want, they can pound sand.

What liberties are you giving up? If you want to hire foreigners, fine, but do it the legal way like everybody else. We allow some foreigners into the country to work. You may have to sponsor them, but it's possible. Can you usher in a slew of people and then pick workers? No you can't, but that has nothing to do with your liberties.

I wonder why he doesn't hire his ex-cons instead of illegals?

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If you READ THIS THREAD you would know why. Sorry ass Americans are not going to work while the government is paying them not to do anything. There aren't enough homeless looking to better themselves either, but I keep trying.

 

[OKTexas]

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

I promised you a response. It takes two parts. Here is the first part, the second one to follow:

Ray, challenging me on a subject you have shown an absolute ignorant and /or disdain of can be very costly. To begin with, the build the wall guys say if you are not for a wall, you are a liberal, lefty, etc. That is absolutely idiotic as we shall see.

The way I view the topic is best described in an analogy. In this analogy a man is stuck in a burning apartment on the third floor of a building (this part of the analogy describes our situation in America.) If this man stays in his current position, he dies. If the man goes out the door, there is a 100 percent chance that he will be killed (that part of the analogy refers to the nutty wall idea.) If he jumps out the window, the fall might kill him, but then again, he might live. That part of the analogy refers to a solution OTHER THAN the nutty wall idea.

I am neither pro-open borders NOR am I anti – closed borders. So, let’s get that understood and make an attempt to be honest. It’s just that a militarized border with a wall around it will not work in the United States.

The REAL cost of the wall is Liberty. So far, no build the wall guy has addressed the issue of Liberty. In the Declaration of Independence, we find these words:

“WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”

Of this document, the Declaration of Independence, the SCOTUS ruled:

The first official action of this nation declared the foundation of government in these words: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. "While such declaration of principles may not have the force of organic law, or be made the basis of judicial decision as to the limits of right and duty, and while in all cases reference must be had to the organic law of the nation for such limits, yet the latter is but the body and the letter of which the former is the thought and the spirit, and it is always safe to read the letter of the Constitution in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. No duty rests more imperatively upon the courts than the enforcement of those constitutional provisions intended to secure that equality of rights which is the foundation of free government." Cotting v. Godard, 183 U.S. 79 (1901)

The Bible is clear about this subject as well:

“Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land Unto All the Inhabitants thereof” Leviticus 25: 10 and this Bible verse can be found on the Liberty Bell at Independence Hall. This Old Testament verse refers to the "Jubilee", or the instructions to the Israelites to return property and free slaves.every 50 years.

In II Timothy 3: 16 we read that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”

Finally, in II Corinthians 3 : 17 we read that:

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.”

But what is Liberty? Well in a biblical sense, liberty means freedom (see # 1865 in the Greek Dictionary of Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. In law, Liberty means Freedom; exemption from extraneous control. …freedom regulated by law. (Black’s Law Dictionary Fifth Edition)

My take on it is very simple:

In New Jersey, they passed a law requiring people to turn in high capacity magazines… this included even off duty police. Nobody complied? Why? People think the law is unconstitutional. The Right to Life and Liberty are unalienable Rights. The Right to keep and bear Arms is an unalienable Right. It is an extension of both a Right to Life AND a Right to Liberty. So, no matter how many laws are passed, the majority of gun owners will not forfeit that Right. On that issue, they understand the concept.

Those same people would, however, deny to me my Rights and punish me for hiring undocumented foreigners. The sad truth is, just as the feds are usurping the Second Amendment, they are waging a war against your Liberty. Those wanting a wall cannot find any biblical precedent for CONTROLLING people (which was one the first reasons cited to me in favor of a wall) and that was followed up by Ray – falsely believing we can keep people out. What a crock! (Continued in part II)

Now you're forcing me to repeat myself.

That has to be the damned funniest thing I've read on this board. Everyone in our country has rights, but they are also subject to our laws if they abuse those rights. The same damned thing applies to illegal aliens, that's how our LAW refers to them. So take your semantics game and shove it.

Our Constitution doesn't apply to the whole freaking world, the entry of aliens (meaning not of this country) are regulated by our laws. Not by your fantasies.

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I've repeated myself EIGHT times to Ray. You bitch because you cannot understand one simple thing:

While the Constitution governs us, there are laws above the Constitution

Violating laws can take any right, up to and including life. You can pretend natural laws trump ours, but nature doesn't have law enforcement officers and the only rights aliens have is due process. BTW that's the second time you've pass on my comment with out addressing it directly, what's wrong, can argue with facts?

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He gets very quiet when YOU are able to back up your position with references, and then challenge him to do the same. Says a lot doesn’t it?

Yep

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[basquebromance]

"Per the pool reporter, Trump said this afternoon that he has "informed my folks" that it will be a steel barrier rather than concrete, because: "They don't like concrete so we'll give them steel." (Democrats' issue with the wall is obviously not about which material is used.)"

 

[OKTexas]

I have endured your dumbassery long enough. I didn't win a damn thing Ray as I voted Republican. I don't support Democracy - not in name, not by party, not by ideology. YOU DO and I'm sick and tired of your dishonesty so I'll treat you like you treat me.

You have one standard. If someone does not back the silly wall, they are a liberal, etc. THAT is what separates you from others with an IQ higher than their shoe size.

If you had ANY IQ, you would know why Congress can pass no such law as you suggest. My only point to you is that we are restricted by the parameters of the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings in what kind of legislation we an pass.

You have proven to be a fake, a phony, a fraud, and a poseur. YOU adopted Bill Clinton's philosophy and have your head stuck so far up the liberals ass that if they fart, you will choke to death or get your first breath of air.

Now, you've called me a liberal for the last time. Put up, shut up or get ready for a nasty back and forth. Enough of this B.S. You didn't know what an unalienable Right is so you don't have a clue when you advocate withholding one or denying one to someone. You would have to kill me Ray in order to do some of the things you propose. My Rights are unalienable. You cannot take them; you cannot impose on them. To even suggest it shows that YOU ARE NOT EVEN AN AMERICAN.

You should start at post #2806. Read it and then cull through those 500 posts so you can see the number of times you LIED, called me names and tried to deflect when asked direct questions. It's not my fault that the left misled you and made a socialist out of you. Now, you want a discussion or a pissing match?

Put up a wall and no rights of yours will be taken away. If that happens, you let me know what right you lost, and I'll join your side. This "losing rights' nonsense is some sort of black helicopter scare tactic that will never work. You want to prove yourself as a conservative? Then join the conservatives on this issue.

Part II of my response to you:

In Jesus Time, there were THREE walls that surrounded Jerusalem, 90 towers stood in the first wall, 14 in the second, and 60 in the third. The third wall was built by Herod Agrippa I. These walls dated back to the time the first one was built in 130 B.C. Yet, very clearly these walls did not work. They did not keep the moneychangers out of the Temple (It didn’t even keep them outside the outer walls) Furthermore, the walls did not keep out the poseurs who claimed to be Israelites, but were in fact, half breed Canaanites that Jesus referred to as the Children of Hell.

America, being a cut above the third world is not Mexico, Canada, etc. NOR are we at war (which is the primary purpose of a wall … OTHER THAN preserving a culture.)

Those who want a wall cite they mythical stories that these foreigners steal jobs – impossible unless you live in a socialist country… and Ray wants to debate the meaning of socialism. Since he previously rejected the dictionary definition, I went directly to the socialists themselves. These are THEIR words, not mine:

“we believe that social and economic decisions should be made by those whom they most affect.

Today, corporate executives who answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stockholders make basic economic decisions affecting millions of people. Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them”

What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

These are Ray’s EXACT sentiments. Ray advocates for that very kind of control as do those who have bothered to answer my questions.

I think it’s time for the build the wall guys, the right, the left, etc. to cut the crap and get real. From where do your Rights come from? If the government give you your rights via your citizenship, then government is your Creator and your God. It’s time to read the Declaration of Independence and the Court cases related thereto.

Under that scenario, you have NO Right to keep and bear Arms, NO Right to Freedom of the Press or Freedom of Speech, No Right to Freedom of Religion, etc. This is NOT multiple choice; it’s either / or.

IF you believe in the foundational principles upon which America was founded, then you accept the fact that unalienable Rights pre-existed before the Constitution was written. Man cannot take them from you. And so, rather than spew this idiotic charge that I’m “pro-open borders,” you have to ask yourself the REAL question:

Is your Liberty a gift from your Creator OR is it bestowed upon you by government? IF you believe in God, you have to find the biblical justification for denying to people their Liberty. Securing the border, protecting America from an invasion, regulating the flow of people are all legal, moral and constitutional. Using the laws to control or keep people out is a violation of their unalienable Rights – unless you think that only Americans have a Right to be in the United States. We don’t have to hire those people; nobody has to do business with them; we don’t have to interact with them and it is OUR politicians that allow them to partake of the privileges of citizenship without becoming citizens. Your real beef is with the politicians.


Either you believe in Liberty or you do not. The build the wall guys understand this so they’ve created this talking point: you’re either for the wall or you are whatever insult they can conjure up. I’m not going to bother calling them names. I pointed out what socialists say and what the word of God says. IF Liberty only applies to Americans, somebody refer me to that section of the Constitution, the Bible, the Declaration of Independence or something (other that post 14th Amendment swill) that will give credence to the talking point.

I'm running in and out of the house so I'll respond as I (if I have time) to read it since brevity is not your skill set.

First of all our country does not belong to the world, it belongs to Americans as founded. Our founding documents were written for this country, not the world. Secondly, our country is not operated by any religion. In fact it's one of the big no-no's in our Constitution. Our founders expected us to believe in various religions, but not have our government run by them.

Biblical teachings were fine in the day. But this is a new day and some are just no longer valid. Be fruitful and multiply is a great theory when you have a thousand people on the planet, not such a great idea when you have 7.5 billion.

Inalienable rights are those you are born with whether you believe in God or not. They come as part of occupying this planet. NOBODY as the inalienable right to enter this country without our permission. Freedom comes after you get here, but you have no freedom until we allow you to enter. Afterwards certain rights apply, and if finally granted citizenship, all rights apply. But nobody from Guatemala has United States rights.

There you are with that dumbassery again - and dishonesty. I have not one time argued inalienable rights. Stick your inalienable rights where the sun don't shine. I'm only concerned with unalienable Rights.

No, they are NOT you stupid asshole.

No need to be so tough on yourself. You are aware you quoted yourself, RIGHT?

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[OKTexas]

Enough Americans voted for the wall to put Trump in office along with a butt load of congresscritters in 2016.

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They voted for Trump, not a majority but enough. The wall was only one of a dozen reasons for the Trump victory. This is why 51% to 69% of Americans say they either oppose building a wall or say it's not a priority.

Tell the mayor of El Paso that the 3500 illegals being dumped in his lap a week because the courts say we can't hold them, that a wall isn't a priority. And that's just ONE city.

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Why would you want to hold them?

Like with all criminals, to adjudicate their case, they have no assets to assure their appearance in court.

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Totally non-responsive

Liar.

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