Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[Porter Rockwell]

I thought You Were trying to say in the good old Italian and German days we didn't have welfare, schools etc.
I'm saying so what, ? Immigrants past the first generation have always contributed to the economy.

I don't know what you're talking about, but we are 20 trillion in debt today. We don't have a generation to wait. We can do just fine without them and the associated costs. We can do without the murders, we can do without the drugs, we can do without the DUI's that kill Americans. We can do without all those things because we have enough of those problems with our own people. We don't need to be importing more problems.

Employers need laborers that will produce at a competitive wage just as you need your firearm for protection. I support YOUR Rights AND the EMPLOYER'S Rights. See how that works?

It's my right to own firearms. It's my right to self-defense. No employer has the right to hire illegals.

Employers, in our de jure / lawful / legal / CONSTITUTIONAL form of government have the Right to hire whomever they want.

No they don't.

If you were right, the Transcontinental Railroad would never have been built.

 

[bripat9643]

What liberties am I giving up if the wall is built?

I've answered that twice in this thread. READ IT. This repetitive stuff is for people that are too stupid to read OR cannot understand that the excuses for the wall have been refuted hundreds of times on this thread.

The excuses for not having a wall has been debunked a hundred times on this thread and the dozen or so just like it.

It won't work. How do you know until it's built?

It will take away our freedoms. How? Name me one freedom I would lose by a wall a thousand miles away from me.

It will be too authoritative and promote dictatorship. HTF can a wall change a country and politics?

It's racist. Why, because the people who are constantly sneaking into our country have different color skin, and it it were white people, we would be okay with invaders?

It won't stop drugs. Most of the heroin coming into the US is from Mexico.

They will dig tunnels. They dig tunnels now! Do you know how many months it takes to dig tunnels?

The FACT that you are making the idiotic and erroneous claim that you have debunked the facts disproving your claims adds to that body of evidence that you don't understand how the nutty wall idea is going to destroy YOUR Liberty.

How the heck does protecting our borders so we can have liberty from 3 Rd world shit holes like Mexico, destroy our libertys?

.

Let's see if we can put this in language that even you can understand.

With the wall will come the enforcement. There will be things both seen and UNSEEN. For example, the Constitution Free Zone will be vigorously enforced. There go your constitutional Liberties within 100 miles of the border. And there will be more.

If you would go off the attack, STFU and quit posting every five minutes, I would explain it to you.

We already have the "constitution free zone," moron, and it's far bigger without a wall than it will be with the wall. In the latter case, border patrol can stay close to the border. That isn't possible when the aliens get a running head start of several miles.

You have consistently failed to explain how the wall will have any negative impact on my constitutional liberties. If anything, it will have a positive effect. If we don't allow illegals to enter in the first place, then we don't have to send immigration agents roaming all over the entire country in their search for illegals.

Anyone who claims the wall won't work is simply a sleazy lying douchebag.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Let me tell you, our industry is flooded with foreigners. Cheap companies don't want to pay good money and lazy Americans don't want to take the jobs. So more and more companies are turning to foreigners.

They come here and are operating 75,000 lbs vehicles on the road with no ability to read road signs. These are terrible drivers to boot. Yes, they are driving right next to your vehicle on the highway. Besides the danger to Americans, they are keeping our wages lower because companies can pay them squat.

It's not just my industry, it's happening in nearly every industry. The ones that don't work or work low wage jobs are costing us taxpayers billions of dollars every year. That's money I work for that could go to better things like taking care of our homeless vets or reduce the deficit. And I don't want to hear about all these phony advantages because the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

See - occasionally the are honest. The Wall is just protectionism for lazy Americans.

At this point I think we need to test your knowledge here, so answer this one simple question:

In the theory of supply and demand, what happens to prices when there is too much supply?

You're a truck driver, not someone that deals with the laws of economics. Wouldn't your test questions be like Chuck Schumer asking a Marine to explain how his M16 works?

You don't need to be an economist to understand the supply and demand theory.

You have to have reasoning skills - which you have shown a lack of experience with.

 

[bripat9643]

What liberties am I giving up if the wall is built?

I've answered that twice in this thread. READ IT. This repetitive stuff is for people that are too stupid to read OR cannot understand that the excuses for the wall have been refuted hundreds of times on this thread.

The excuses for not having a wall has been debunked a hundred times on this thread and the dozen or so just like it.

It won't work. How do you know until it's built?

It will take away our freedoms. How? Name me one freedom I would lose by a wall a thousand miles away from me.

It will be too authoritative and promote dictatorship. HTF can a wall change a country and politics?

It's racist. Why, because the people who are constantly sneaking into our country have different color skin, and it it were white people, we would be okay with invaders?

It won't stop drugs. Most of the heroin coming into the US is from Mexico.

They will dig tunnels. They dig tunnels now! Do you know how many months it takes to dig tunnels?

The wall in Israel like the Berlin Wall worked because the guards could be at any attempted crossing in minutes. That is not the case with our 2000 mile border. Unless we have thousands of miles of monitoring and border guards, migrants will stream across the remote areas of the border. However, if we had that degree of monitoring and border guards there would be no reason for the wall.

Why can't we put just as many guards per mile of wall as Israel?

Do you idiots ever think about the dumb shit you post?

I see you have NEVER thought about what you're posting.

I see that you are a moron because you post ideas that have already been debunked 1000 times.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I've answered that twice in this thread. READ IT. This repetitive stuff is for people that are too stupid to read OR cannot understand that the excuses for the wall have been refuted hundreds of times on this thread.

The excuses for not having a wall has been debunked a hundred times on this thread and the dozen or so just like it.

It won't work. How do you know until it's built?

It will take away our freedoms. How? Name me one freedom I would lose by a wall a thousand miles away from me.

It will be too authoritative and promote dictatorship. HTF can a wall change a country and politics?

It's racist. Why, because the people who are constantly sneaking into our country have different color skin, and it it were white people, we would be okay with invaders?

It won't stop drugs. Most of the heroin coming into the US is from Mexico.

They will dig tunnels. They dig tunnels now! Do you know how many months it takes to dig tunnels?

The FACT that you are making the idiotic and erroneous claim that you have debunked the facts disproving your claims adds to that body of evidence that you don't understand how the nutty wall idea is going to destroy YOUR Liberty.

How the heck does protecting our borders so we can have liberty from 3 Rd world shit holes like Mexico, destroy our libertys?

.

Let's see if we can put this in language that even you can understand.

With the wall will come the enforcement. There will be things both seen and UNSEEN. For example, the Constitution Free Zone will be vigorously enforced. There go your constitutional Liberties within 100 miles of the border. And there will be more.

If you would go off the attack, STFU and quit posting every five minutes, I would explain it to you.

We already have the "constitution free zone," moron, and it's far bigger without a wall than it will be with the wall. In the latter case, border patrol can stay close to the border. That isn't possible when the aliens get a running head start of several miles.

You have consistently failed to explain how the wall will have any negative impact on my constitutional liberties. If anything, it will have a positive effect. If we don't allow illegals to enter in the first place, then we don't have to send immigration agents roaming all over the entire country in their search for illegals.

Anyone who claims the wall won't work is simply a sleazy lying douchebag.

No shit Sherlock. They've had the Constitution Free Zone, but like the laws on income tax evasion, they won't use them until they find the right guy they can demonize in order to justify the enforcement of it.

When they arrested Al Capone, income tax evasion laws had not been used in 25 years.

Your desperation has led to you screaming insults and name calling. You have effectively conceded defeat and all we're doing from here on out is repeating the same points over and over.

You need a wall. Fact is, you need four of them around you so that you cannot harm yourself or others when you have these melt downs.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I've answered that twice in this thread. READ IT. This repetitive stuff is for people that are too stupid to read OR cannot understand that the excuses for the wall have been refuted hundreds of times on this thread.

The excuses for not having a wall has been debunked a hundred times on this thread and the dozen or so just like it.

It won't work. How do you know until it's built?

It will take away our freedoms. How? Name me one freedom I would lose by a wall a thousand miles away from me.

It will be too authoritative and promote dictatorship. HTF can a wall change a country and politics?

It's racist. Why, because the people who are constantly sneaking into our country have different color skin, and it it were white people, we would be okay with invaders?

It won't stop drugs. Most of the heroin coming into the US is from Mexico.

They will dig tunnels. They dig tunnels now! Do you know how many months it takes to dig tunnels?

The wall in Israel like the Berlin Wall worked because the guards could be at any attempted crossing in minutes. That is not the case with our 2000 mile border. Unless we have thousands of miles of monitoring and border guards, migrants will stream across the remote areas of the border. However, if we had that degree of monitoring and border guards there would be no reason for the wall.

Why can't we put just as many guards per mile of wall as Israel?

Do you idiots ever think about the dumb shit you post?

I see you have NEVER thought about what you're posting.

I see that you are a moron because you post ideas that have already been debunked 1000 times.

NOTHING I've said has been debunked. It's the reason you've sunk to the low of throwing hissy fits and calling people names when they prove you wrong.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I've answered that twice in this thread. READ IT. This repetitive stuff is for people that are too stupid to read OR cannot understand that the excuses for the wall have been refuted hundreds of times on this thread.

The excuses for not having a wall has been debunked a hundred times on this thread and the dozen or so just like it.

It won't work. How do you know until it's built?

It will take away our freedoms. How? Name me one freedom I would lose by a wall a thousand miles away from me.

It will be too authoritative and promote dictatorship. HTF can a wall change a country and politics?

It's racist. Why, because the people who are constantly sneaking into our country have different color skin, and it it were white people, we would be okay with invaders?

It won't stop drugs. Most of the heroin coming into the US is from Mexico.

They will dig tunnels. They dig tunnels now! Do you know how many months it takes to dig tunnels?

The FACT that you are making the idiotic and erroneous claim that you have debunked the facts disproving your claims adds to that body of evidence that you don't understand how the nutty wall idea is going to destroy YOUR Liberty.

How the heck does protecting our borders so we can have liberty from 3 Rd world shit holes like Mexico, destroy our libertys?

.

Let's see if we can put this in language that even you can understand.

With the wall will come the enforcement. There will be things both seen and UNSEEN. For example, the Constitution Free Zone will be vigorously enforced. There go your constitutional Liberties within 100 miles of the border. And there will be more.

If you would go off the attack, STFU and quit posting every five minutes, I would explain it to you.

We already have the "constitution free zone," moron, and it's far bigger without a wall than it will be with the wall. In the latter case, border patrol can stay close to the border. That isn't possible when the aliens get a running head start of several miles.

You have consistently failed to explain how the wall will have any negative impact on my constitutional liberties. If anything, it will have a positive effect. If we don't allow illegals to enter in the first place, then we don't have to send immigration agents roaming all over the entire country in their search for illegals.

Anyone who claims the wall won't work is simply a sleazy lying douchebag.

I wanted to come back to this and then remind you of post #1428 That proves that you post lies. I'd like to expand on the theme.

YOUR LIBERTIES AND IMMIGRATION LAW

I have maintained that the wall brings with it enforcement laws that affect your Liberty and deprive you of your Rights. Let us take the case of Printz v. U.S.:

On June 27, 1997, the last day of the term, the Supreme Court reversed the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.[7] Justice Antonin Scalia, joined by Chief Justice William Rehnquist alongside Justices Sandra Day O'Connor, Anthony Kennedy, and Clarence Thomas found that the Brady Act's attempted commandeering of the sheriffs to perform background checks violated the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.[7] In his opinion of the Court, Justice Scalia stated that, although there is no constitutional text precisely responding to the challenge, an answer can be found “in historical understanding and practice, the structure of the Constitution, and in the jurisprudence of this Court.

...The Court quoted Federalist No. 51’s argument that by giving voters control over dual sovereign governments “a double security arises to the rights of the people. The different governments will control each other, at the same that each will be controlled by itself.”[11] The Court concluded that allowing the Federal government to draft the police officers of the 50 states into its service would increase its powers far beyond what the Constitution intends."

Printz v. United States - Wikipedia

So, what's gun control got to do with immigration? IT'S LEGAL PRINCIPLE

"Under the 10th Amendment, the federal government cannot force states or localities to participate in a federal program. The Supreme Court announced that principle in 1997, in Printz v. United States,where it ruled that the federal government could not command states to conduct background checks on gun purchasers. The same principle applies here: The federal government cannot require states to participate in its deportation program. Indeed, no federal law mandates that states or localities use their own resources to aid federal immigration agents in locating and arresting people."

The Government’s Case Against California’s ‘Sanctuary’ Policies Is on Weak Legal Ground

Here is why this is important:

In the Printz case, I knew Sheriff Richard Mack, one of the original Plaintiffs. He was refusing to do background checks and it was important enough to go to the United States Supreme Court. When the government LOST in the courts over requiring state and local governments to enforce federal laws and shut down Sanctuary Cities, Mack was really pissed off. He told me that if he had known how the court was going to use the legal principle he helped set limiting the power of the feds, he would have never got in the lawsuit.

Put another way: The wall was / is so important to Richard Mack (as it is with all build the wall advocates) that they will forfeit any and all their Liberties for the silly wall. I'll have to do Part 3 to list a few of those Liberties you will be losing... but, Richard Mack would have participated in an unconstitutional gun registration scheme had he known it would have affected that damn wall. The wall was more important than the unconstitutional POWER (not AUTHORITY) of the government.

 

[bripat9643]

What is wrong with building the wall? I voted for Trump. Trump is wrong, like the liberals. We need to tear down the border wall. What we really need make a national identity card. Linked to fingerprints. You don't get a job if you can't prove your identity linked to your real immigration status . Why Replicratrats are so opposed to that, boggles my mind.

Well, let me help you unboggle your mind. Why not start by reading Orwell's book 1984. It was a warning in the form of a novel.

The government big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take all you have... a quote by a famous Republican

Nobody on the right is asking the government to "give" us anything. We are asking the government to stop something that we citizens cannot stop by ourselves. Big difference.

You are asking taxpayers to pay more than $25 billion for something that doesn’t work and that Trump promised Mexico would pay for. Furthermore, Trump is putting tens of thousands of people into custody in tent cities at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Trump is spending millions and millions and just making the situation worse.

If walls don't work, why have there been so many walls throughout history; why are there so many gated communities and resorts all over the rest of the world with walls; why do gated communities in the US have walls; why do the Vatican and Israel have walls; why do so many wealthy and/or famous US residents have walls around their homes; why do prisons have walls, why do military installations have walls; why are there walls or high fences around electrical installations, missile silos and panoply of other places?



.

As far as ladders go, how is a would-be illegal immigrant going to trek all the way to our border carrying a 30-foot ladder? (Oh, I forgot, you wackos are going to aid and abet.) Do you opponents of the wall know how clumsy and heavy a 30-foot ladder is or how much one costs? Have any of you ever tried to pull one up to the top of a tall wall with razorwire or barbed wire on its top, get the ladder and yourself over the top of such a barrier, then lower the ladder down the other side and climb down? Then, how does one get that ladder back over thesaid wall and down the other side for someone else to use? Haveany of you ever carried one, erected one, and used one? Even with climbing gear, if would-be illegal immigrants could get it to the border, it would still be a feat to get over and down the other side of such a wall. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that some incredibly fit, determined, equipped, and experiencedperson could get over such a wall with his belongings, how manymight that be out of say 5,000 people?





Are wall opponents so blinded by their ulterior motives that they refuse to or can't see that walls always have and still do deter the movement of people? Have they lost all sense of historical perspective, common sense,powers of observation, and reality? If they are delusional or in a state of deep denial, I hope they get help for Heaven’s sake.

LMFAO. By that kind of logic, how come that every empire in history ceased to exist?

China still exists, moron.

 

[bripat9643]

The excuses for not having a wall has been debunked a hundred times on this thread and the dozen or so just like it.

It won't work. How do you know until it's built?

It will take away our freedoms. How? Name me one freedom I would lose by a wall a thousand miles away from me.

It will be too authoritative and promote dictatorship. HTF can a wall change a country and politics?

It's racist. Why, because the people who are constantly sneaking into our country have different color skin, and it it were white people, we would be okay with invaders?

It won't stop drugs. Most of the heroin coming into the US is from Mexico.

They will dig tunnels. They dig tunnels now! Do you know how many months it takes to dig tunnels?

The FACT that you are making the idiotic and erroneous claim that you have debunked the facts disproving your claims adds to that body of evidence that you don't understand how the nutty wall idea is going to destroy YOUR Liberty.

How the heck does protecting our borders so we can have liberty from 3 Rd world shit holes like Mexico, destroy our libertys?

.

Let's see if we can put this in language that even you can understand.

With the wall will come the enforcement. There will be things both seen and UNSEEN. For example, the Constitution Free Zone will be vigorously enforced. There go your constitutional Liberties within 100 miles of the border. And there will be more.

If you would go off the attack, STFU and quit posting every five minutes, I would explain it to you.

We already have the "constitution free zone," moron, and it's far bigger without a wall than it will be with the wall. In the latter case, border patrol can stay close to the border. That isn't possible when the aliens get a running head start of several miles.

You have consistently failed to explain how the wall will have any negative impact on my constitutional liberties. If anything, it will have a positive effect. If we don't allow illegals to enter in the first place, then we don't have to send immigration agents roaming all over the entire country in their search for illegals.

Anyone who claims the wall won't work is simply a sleazy lying douchebag.

I wanted to come back to this and then remind you of post #1428 That proves that you post lies. I'd like to expand on the theme.

YOUR LIBERTIES AND IMMIGRATION LAW

I have maintained that the wall brings with it enforcement laws that affect your Liberty and deprive you of your Rights. Let us take the case of Printz v. U.S.:

On June 27, 1997, the last day of the term, the Supreme Court reversed the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.[7] Justice Antonin Scalia, joined by Chief Justice William Rehnquist alongside Justices Sandra Day O'Connor, Anthony Kennedy, and Clarence Thomas found that the Brady Act's attempted commandeering of the sheriffs to perform background checks violated the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.[7] In his opinion of the Court, Justice Scalia stated that, although there is no constitutional text precisely responding to the challenge, an answer can be found “in historical understanding and practice, the structure of the Constitution, and in the jurisprudence of this Court.

...The Court quoted Federalist No. 51’s argument that by giving voters control over dual sovereign governments “a double security arises to the rights of the people. The different governments will control each other, at the same that each will be controlled by itself.”[11] The Court concluded that allowing the Federal government to draft the police officers of the 50 states into its service would increase its powers far beyond what the Constitution intends."

Printz v. United States - Wikipedia

So, what's gun control got to do with immigration? IT'S LEGAL PRINCIPLE

"Under the 10th Amendment, the federal government cannot force states or localities to participate in a federal program. The Supreme Court announced that principle in 1997, in Printz v. United States,where it ruled that the federal government could not command states to conduct background checks on gun purchasers. The same principle applies here: The federal government cannot require states to participate in its deportation program. Indeed, no federal law mandates that states or localities use their own resources to aid federal immigration agents in locating and arresting people."

The Government’s Case Against California’s ‘Sanctuary’ Policies Is on Weak Legal Ground

Here is why this is important:

In the Printz case, I knew Sheriff Richard Mack, one of the original Plaintiffs. He was refusing to do background checks and it was important enough to go to the United States Supreme Court. When the government LOST in the courts over requiring state and local governments to enforce federal laws and shut down Sanctuary Cities, Mack was really pissed off. He told me that if he had known how the court was going to use the legal principle he helped set limiting the power of the feds, he would have never got in the lawsuit.

Put another way: The wall was / is so important to Richard Mack (as it is with all build the wall advocates) that they will forfeit any and all their Liberties for the silly wall. I'll have to do Part 3 to list a few of those Liberties you will be losing... but, Richard Mack would have participated in an unconstitutional gun registration scheme had he known it would have affected that damn wall. The wall was more important than the unconstitutional POWER (not AUTHORITY) of the government.

Building the wall wouldn't change a single word in the court decision.

You proved nothing. No American would forfeit any liberties if the wall is built.

 

[bripat9643]

Now, once the wall goes up and doesn't work, the build the wall advocates will want more enforcement tools - THEY ALREADY DEMAND THEM! These people want the government to enforce the National ID / REAL ID Act - E Verify. More and more surveillance with more and more control. At some point it should dawn on them that if you do the danielpalos thing, issuing "National ID" to foreigners, it don't work without citizens carrying National ID.

Exactly. The wall cowards are demanding authoritarian government. That's why I think its wrong, and why I oppose them.

We can secure the border AND leave those options open that will aid us in resisting tyranny in government. NEITHER the build the wall advocates NOR those who are in the resistance have a fool proof plan, but the build the wall advocates think like Democrats: You will never be able to build a wall big enough or take away Rights to the point that they are satisfied because they cannot accept the simple fact:

FOREIGNERS ARE HERE BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE WILLINGLY DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM. We're not in a war; we're not trying to go back to the Constitution as originally written and intended, so the resistance is merely trying to retain the ability to resist unconstitutional powers... and that objective flies over the heads of the build the wall advocates who end up defending and promoting communism in the name of their stupid wall.

Yep. The wall cowards want to prevent their neighbors from doing business with Mexicans because they are afraid of the competition.

Why don't you move to Mexico since you're so fond of those people? What are you afraid of? Are you a racist?

 

[bripat9643]

So how would a wall interfere in free trade?

It will be used to enforce laws that interfere with free trade. I mean, that's the point right? We pass laws that severely limit Mexicans coming there to work. But like all overly restrictive laws, people just ignore them. That's why you want a wall, to force obedience to laws that are being ignored. Ignored by Americans who are otherwise happy to have Mexicans helping us get things done here in the US.

If Mexicans want to trade with us, they can just dig a tunnel under the wall. You turds keep saying how it's no obstacle.

 

[Flopper]

Well you have an option.

1. Spend 47 BILLION dollars on a wall or steel slates that we know doesn't work
2. Go with the recommendations of border security experts and use high technology to secure the border. Something that would be more effective and cost efficient.

So WTF are you getting this 47 billion dollar figure from? Trump is asking for 5.8.

We know a wall will work because of the many other places around the world (and in the US) where they do work.

We need a wall because it's a permanent object; something the Democrats can't remove like they can with , laws and technology. We all know Democrats want as many illegals in this country as possible, and a wall will stop their attempts should they regain total control over the federal government. It's why they fill your heads with this crap that a wall won't work. Democrats are scared to death of a wall not because it won't work, but because it will. If they really believed what they told you, they wouldn't give the slightest fight over it. They would be able to use it's failure for the next couple of generations.

The wall is life or death to Democrats. That's why they are willing to shutdown the government over it. No matter what it costs, they are not going to allow it to be built because it's success would ruin their entire plot.

If the wall were life or death to Democrats as you say, they would not have offered Trump his wall in exchange for a deal on DACA last January.

There are a whole bunch of conspiracy theories concerning democrat support for illegal immigration. Probably one of the easiest to refute is democrats must have illegal immigrants in order to win national elections in the future.

The fact is minorities strongly support democrats and they will become the majority in the US in less than 50 years. That will happen even if we stop all illegal immigration. This is because minority birth rates are much higher than native white american birth rates. Secondly, we are adding a minimum of 700,000 legal immigrants each year which are members of a minority group while the number of illegal immigrants are declining. Lastly, do you really thing that Obama would have deported 2.5 million illegal immigrants earning him the title of the deported-in-chief for breaking all records for deportation if the future of the party depended on illegal immigrants?

 

[bripat9643]

A&B mostly. Most illegal immigration does not come over the border by foot. And if we’re 21T in debt, a quarter T on building a wall is not a good investment.

So as an immigration barrier, it’s a bad idea; also in the stark light of the reality that illegal immigration has been largely beneficial to the economy despite the horror stories and cherry picked anecdotes.

That being said, it seems to me that a fantastic idea would be to create an alternative to the Panama canal from San Diego to Brownsville TX or so that allows goods to bypass the trip through Central America and can possibly bring irrigation to the desert Southwest. Not right along the border but something like that would serve multiple purposes;

Jobs during the construction
Immigration barrier to those that do cross illegally
Irrigation
Commerce
National Security.


All a pipe dream.
It would be a multi decade project of course and We don’t do big things any longer.

Space Force!

A quarter T? Who said the wall was going to cost 250 billion? I've seen estimates of somewhere around 20 billion on the high end

Not sure what in the hell I was thinking. A quarter B once you factor in buying the land, doing environmental studies, maintenance, etc seems high as well.

The fact that the wall will not do what it is being sold stands though.

It won't stop every single person but if you think it won't at least significantly slow down the influx I don't know what to tell you

Slow the influx is true. Significantly...doubtful
You put up a wall and those that wade across the Rio Grande will just stuff themselves into trucks or onto ships. Those who do this sort of smuggling are pelrisoners to market forces too. They will charge less if they have more customers.


Or save up, fly to Canada and take a leisurely stroll into Montana.

Horseshit:

 

[bripat9643]

Well you have an option.

1. Spend 47 BILLION dollars on a wall or steel slates that we know doesn't work
2. Go with the recommendations of border security experts and use high technology to secure the border. Something that would be more effective and cost efficient.

So WTF are you getting this 47 billion dollar figure from? Trump is asking for 5.8.

We know a wall will work because of the many other places around the world (and in the US) where they do work.

We need a wall because it's a permanent object; something the Democrats can't remove like they can with , laws and technology. We all know Democrats want as many illegals in this country as possible, and a wall will stop their attempts should they regain total control over the federal government. It's why they fill your heads with this crap that a wall won't work. Democrats are scared to death of a wall not because it won't work, but because it will. If they really believed what they told you, they wouldn't give the slightest fight over it. They would be able to use it's failure for the next couple of generations.

The wall is life or death to Democrats. That's why they are willing to shutdown the government over it. No matter what it costs, they are not going to allow it to be built because it's success would ruin their entire plot.

If the wall were life or death to Democrats as you say, they would not have offered Trump his wall in exchange for a deal on DACA last January.

There are a whole bunch of conspiracy theories concerning democrat support for illegal immigration. Probably one of the easiest to refute is democrats must have illegal immigrants in order to win national elections in the future.

The fact is minorities strongly support democrats and they will become the majority in the US in less than 50 years. That will happen even if we stop all illegal immigration. This is because minority birth rates are much higher than native white american birth rates. Secondly, we are adding a minimum of 700,000 legal immigrants each year which are members of a minority group while the number of illegal immigrants are declining. Lastly, do you really thing that Obama would have deported 2.5 million illegal immigrants earning him the title of the deported-in-chief for breaking all records for deportation if the future of the party depended on illegal immigrants?

They offered a con. If Dims were serious, they would agree to the entire $25 billion in this budget.

Most of Obama's "deportations" are people who were caught at the border and turned back. These people never used to be counted as border crossers. Obama simply paid games with the definition of "deportation."

 

[bripat9643]

Nobody on the right is asking the government to "give" us anything. We are asking the government to stop something that we citizens cannot stop by ourselves. Big difference.

You want the government to give you a wall for whatever reason you can conjure up as the discussion proceeds. You don't really know why you want it, other than you think Trump is God and you have to move the goalposts accordingly. But, you want him to give you a wall.

Let me tell you, our industry is flooded with foreigners. Cheap companies don't want to pay good money and lazy Americans don't want to take the jobs. So more and more companies are turning to foreigners.

They come here and are operating 75,000 lbs vehicles on the road with no ability to read road signs. These are terrible drivers to boot. Yes, they are driving right next to your vehicle on the highway. Besides the danger to Americans, they are keeping our wages lower because companies can pay them squat.

It's not just my industry, it's happening in nearly every industry. The ones that don't work or work low wage jobs are costing us taxpayers billions of dollars every year. That's money I work for that could go to better things like taking care of our homeless vets or reduce the deficit. And I don't want to hear about all these phony advantages because the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

Industry is flooded with foreigners because people like you got hooked on drugs and can't think. So you sit on your ass all day, every day whining about a wall around America.

You and more than 11 MILLION Americans could work a job, but choose not to. The jobs are out there - and at good wages. But, it is easier for some of you to sit around, living off the welfare, and not even wanting to create ways to get Americans back on the job.

And who built the welfare state the left, you.


.

Porter isn't "left". Neither am I. I know it gnaws at you, but the best arguments against your cowardly wall are coming from real conservatives and libertarians - not "the left".

You're obviously both a couple of commies.

You aren't fooling anyone.

 

[bripat9643]

Do you really believe that wall couldn't be compromised?

Sure it could. So can prison fences. So can jails. It happens now and then. But the point is it makes it much more difficult for those that are hell bent on trying. For the rest, they will realize the efforts and risks are too great, and they payoff (if any) not worthy. Because even if they could draw the attention by getting past a wall, it likely won't be long until a border agent on the other side arrests them and sends them back to the other side.

Keep in mind the wall is really an unknown factor. It may be solid or slats. It may have barbed wire, electric wire, or nothing on top. Once it's built it becomes a known factor and can not easily be changed. That means coyotes will figure out the fastest method of crossing which maybe ladders, climbing carabiners, or some type power lift. However, you can be sure once the fence is built people are going to cross it. You can't stop them No wall can keep people out if they have access to the right equipment. It can only delay crossing. People who have crossed existing border walls estimated that the delay would only be 1 to 2 minutes over current reinforced fencing. That might be useful in densely populated area but in remote ares which are 85% of the border a couple of minutes delay would be meaningless.

Then why are other countries with similar problems to the US reporting great success with their wall? Will it stop each and every one? Probably not. But if the reduction is 75% or better, it's money well spent.

Other countries are not fighting the same demons we are. Walls work for communists, socialists, dictatorships and countries that are at war... then, they work temporarily.

How do you explain Austria?

 

[bripat9643]

the idiotic idea that a wall will present any substantial obstacle to anything except the Freedom and Liberties of the citizenry.

The idiotic idea that a wall will prevent a substantial barrier. Funny, walls, high walls, are substantial barriers everywhere else they are used. Just ask the Israelis. In fact, I hope Trump invites Israel to inspect his wall design and critique it for quality of construction. Here we have mostly poor vagabonds trying to enter the country on foot and a tall barrier is an "idiotic idea." What, will they just walk right through it? Jump over it with tall ladders? Or dig tunnels under it? The idea is to stop all but the most determined who will be greatly slowed down, while technological surveillance has time to pick them up and detect them.

A substantial obstacle to anything except the Freedom and Liberties of the citizenry. I see. So now you think there are masses of people trying to escape the USA to go south who cannot go through legal portals who will be interfered with because they cannot walk across the border into impoverished Mexico out in the middle of the desert. Because, Shit-For-Brains, these are the only "citizens" we can be talking about who have any freedoms or liberties that matter. Mexicans are NOT citizens of the USA and have have NO freedom or liberty even in their own country much less here.

Do us all a yuge favor and take a long walk off a short pier.

You don't get it. We are not Mexico and the Israelis are at war. Can't fix stupid.

You have a million excuses why walls work everywhere they are tried, but they won't won't work here.

 

[bripat9643]

Here is the first disconnect with those who want to build a border wall.

The REASON THE WALL WON'T WORK HERE IS DUE TO THE SIMPLE FACT THAT IT IS INTENDED SOLELY TO PREVENT HUMAN BEINGS FROM ENGAGING IN OTHERWISE LEGAL ACTIVITIES.

Unlike the Israelis, we are not in a state of war with our neighbors. The American people are WILLINGLY participating in free trade.

The build the wall advocates here keep asking the same questions and keep getting the same answers. It is not in the interests of the American people to start a process that infringes upon the Rights of those who WILLINGLY engage in business with foreign neighbors.

You could regulate the trade, but you are not ever going to keep the foreigners out unless and until you change your own behavior.

You do know we have border check points right?

And we are in a drug war with Mexico we just gave the like 5 billion dollars over the next few years

If we're in a war with drugs, how come we're trying to have a fight with humans? Saudis attack the World Trade Center and we attack Iraq. That morphs into a nearly two decade old war; nothing is settled and Trump declares victory. A war on drugs? You lose.

So you have no problem with drug cartels killing people over your drugs?

Like I said you want anarchy and turn America into a 3rd world shit hole


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I have a problem with people like you who want the world to be at war over drugs in a manner where the government claims more of our Rights and YOU would turn us into a third world shithole because you have developed a religion around a wall.

The wall won't negatively affect our rights one iota. In fact, it will probably have a positive affect because we won't need immigration agents roaming all over the entire country checking eveyrone's immigration status.

 

[Flopper]

There are fences in my neighborhood. A "crew" recently went through the place and got six of my neighbors, stealing all their valuables. My fence is down. I did not get hit. My methods provided a greater deterrent with less imposition and not having this mistaken notion than walls or fences prevented those guys from attempting to take what I own.

You have an asinine analogy that does not apply anyway. The wall will require ninja clad, machine gun toting mercenaries wanting more and more power, taking ALL your Liberties under the pretext of maintaining this wall. You seem to be one talking skeet and promoting propaganda. And, no sir, I have NOT started any name calling with you or anyone else. I might attack your ideas and poke fun at the low IQ people you hang with, but like it or not, you may have to rely on me to defend your Rights one day - IF you have a change of heart and decide that you NEVER give up essential Liberty for the promise of Temporary Safety.

What liberties am I giving up if the wall is built?

I've answered that twice in this thread. READ IT. This repetitive stuff is for people that are too stupid to read OR cannot understand that the excuses for the wall have been refuted hundreds of times on this thread.

The excuses for not having a wall has been debunked a hundred times on this thread and the dozen or so just like it.

It won't work. How do you know until it's built?

It will take away our freedoms. How? Name me one freedom I would lose by a wall a thousand miles away from me.

It will be too authoritative and promote dictatorship. HTF can a wall change a country and politics?

It's racist. Why, because the people who are constantly sneaking into our country have different color skin, and it it were white people, we would be okay with invaders?

It won't stop drugs. Most of the heroin coming into the US is from Mexico.

They will dig tunnels. They dig tunnels now! Do you know how many months it takes to dig tunnels?

The wall in Israel like the Berlin Wall worked because the guards could be at any attempted crossing in minutes. That is not the case with our 2000 mile border. Unless we have thousands of miles of monitoring and border guards, migrants will stream across the remote areas of the border. However, if we had that degree of monitoring and border guards there would be no reason for the wall.

So what's wrong with having both?

Why spend 25 or 30 billion dollars building a wall if electronic monitoring and more border guards will solve the problem. Since a wall only slows down intruders, we will need monitors and more border guards in either case. The only place a barrier wall will be effective is in densely populated areas and 85% of the border is in remote areas.

 

[bripat9643]

I don't know what you're talking about, but we are 20 trillion in debt today. We don't have a generation to wait. We can do just fine without them and the associated costs. We can do without the murders, we can do without the drugs, we can do without the DUI's that kill Americans. We can do without all those things because we have enough of those problems with our own people. We don't need to be importing more problems.

Employers need laborers that will produce at a competitive wage just as you need your firearm for protection. I support YOUR Rights AND the EMPLOYER'S Rights. See how that works?

It's my right to own firearms. It's my right to self-defense. No employer has the right to hire illegals.

Employers, in our de jure / lawful / legal / CONSTITUTIONAL form of government have the Right to hire whomever they want.

No they don't.

If you were right, the Transcontinental Railroad would never have been built.

There was no law preventing the railroads from hiring Chinamen and Irishmen at the time, so your claim is obvious bullshit.

In 1860 the population of the US was 30 million. It's now 11 times that figure. Your belief that the two situations are comparable is laughable.