Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[Ray From Cleveland]

Sure it could. So can prison fences. So can jails. It happens now and then. But the point is it makes it much more difficult for those that are hell bent on trying. For the rest, they will realize the efforts and risks are too great, and they payoff (if any) not worthy. Because even if they could draw the attention by getting past a wall, it likely won't be long until a border agent on the other side arrests them and sends them back to the other side.

Keep in mind the wall is really an unknown factor. It may be solid or slats. It may have barbed wire, electric wire, or nothing on top. Once it's built it becomes a known factor and can not easily be changed. That means coyotes will figure out the fastest method of crossing which maybe ladders, climbing carabiners, or some type power lift. However, you can be sure once the fence is built people are going to cross it. You can't stop them No wall can keep people out if they have access to the right equipment. It can only delay crossing. People who have crossed existing border walls estimated that the delay would only be 1 to 2 minutes over current reinforced fencing. That might be useful in densely populated area but in remote ares which are 85% of the border a couple of minutes delay would be meaningless.

Then why are other countries with similar problems to the US reporting great success with their wall? Will it stop each and every one? Probably not. But if the reduction is 75% or better, it's money well spent.

Other countries are not fighting the same demons we are. Walls work for communists, socialists, dictatorships and countries that are at war... then, they work temporarily.

A wall works to keep people out no matter if there is a conflict or not. You can't say a wall will work on people who are at war but not for people who are not. A wall either works or it doesn't.

Korean Ginseng may help you if you have a sexual problem; it will do NOTHING for diarrhea. The solution has to fit the problem.

And one solution to our problem is a wall.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Who are you talking to? What does this have to do with my post?

I thought You Were trying to say in the good old Italian and German days we didn't have welfare, schools etc.
I'm saying so what, ? Immigrants past the first generation have always contributed to the economy.

I don't know what you're talking about, but we are 20 trillion in debt today. We don't have a generation to wait. We can do just fine without them and the associated costs. We can do without the murders, we can do without the drugs, we can do without the DUI's that kill Americans. We can do without all those things because we have enough of those problems with our own people. We don't need to be importing more problems.

Employers need laborers that will produce at a competitive wage just as you need your firearm for protection. I support YOUR Rights AND the EMPLOYER'S Rights. See how that works?

It's my right to own firearms. It's my right to self-defense. No employer has the right to hire illegals.

Employers, in our de jure / lawful / legal / CONSTITUTIONAL form of government have the Right to hire whomever they want.

Then how is it ICE are busting companies who are hiring illegals? Maybe the owners of these companies can say their rights were violated? If so, why has none even tried?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Do we have to educate you yet AGAIN?

You're a real self-convinced pretentious narcissist, aren't ya? You need to educate people? Oh Lord, look fellow USMB members, we have a teacher now that knows more than any of us and willing to bless us with his presence.

The market is not being flooded with cheap labor per se. It is being filled with people whose American counterparts you have no use for.

I have no idea WTF that's even supposed to mean.

Go back to post # 971. You were informed, with accurate figures, that about 11 million people have been diagnosed with ADD / ADHD YOUR claim is that you have it, but don't take your meds. YOU claim it is a real and legitimate condition. You have made much ado about the public having a right to know the private business of individuals, so you just knocked 11 million people out of the job market. Who wants an employee with a mental health condition?

You're the one who keeps dwelling on this mental health thing. I never said a word about it. You keep inserting things I've never even brought up yet alone discussed.

Between drug addicts and people with a criminal history, you have more than 17 million people that, for all intents and purposes, are UNEMPLOYABLE. And you don't want them to get a second chance and go back to work!

You are all over the board. Before you think about keeping people out and putting up a wall, you should be thinking about who is going to fill the empty positions when your agenda would prohibit Americans from getting those jobs as they are at this very moment, due to a criminal history and / or mental problems that do not affect an individual's ability, BUT are used against them. AND they can NEVER rise above their past given your idea of utopia.

First off I never said nobody should have a second chance. I said it's up to employers to make that decision. And since it's a concern of yours, don't you think that perhaps, if employers get so desperate for workers because we rid our country of foreigners, that maybe those employers WILL take a chance at hiring some of these Americans?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

See - occasionally the are honest. The Wall is just protectionism for lazy Americans.

At this point I think we need to test your knowledge here, so answer this one simple question:

In the theory of supply and demand, what happens to prices when there is too much supply?

You're a truck driver, not someone that deals with the laws of economics. Wouldn't your test questions be like Chuck Schumer asking a Marine to explain how his M16 works?

You don't need to be an economist to understand the supply and demand theory.

You have to have reasoning skills - which you have shown a lack of experience with.

You have your own little rating system for folks here, don't cha? You must be a leftist because you think the only person right is you. Forget evidence of what people post, forget about "logic" which you clearly don't have. Instead, replace that with unfounded wild conspiracy theories.

Now, would you like me to post some articles on Americans who either lost their job because of cheap foreign labor or had to work for less money because of them? I'm sure they're not that hard to find. In fact look up Disney and how they did exactly that.

I love the way you project, deflect, and misrepresent the facts when you are being owned by more than one poster. I don't have any "rating" system. Either you can hold a civil conversation or you can't.

Furthermore, no conspiracy theory has been offered up except that I feel the fix is in and you'll get your silly wall at the expense of gun owner's Rights.

NOBODY is losing their jobs here due to cheap foreign labor. Employers pay what they think a job is worth. If Disney goers think the help isn't paid enough, they can boycott the place and tell the corporate bigwigs they are outta there until they hire Americans at decent wages.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Keep in mind the wall is really an unknown factor. It may be solid or slats. It may have barbed wire, electric wire, or nothing on top. Once it's built it becomes a known factor and can not easily be changed. That means coyotes will figure out the fastest method of crossing which maybe ladders, climbing carabiners, or some type power lift. However, you can be sure once the fence is built people are going to cross it. You can't stop them No wall can keep people out if they have access to the right equipment. It can only delay crossing. People who have crossed existing border walls estimated that the delay would only be 1 to 2 minutes over current reinforced fencing. That might be useful in densely populated area but in remote ares which are 85% of the border a couple of minutes delay would be meaningless.

Then why are other countries with similar problems to the US reporting great success with their wall? Will it stop each and every one? Probably not. But if the reduction is 75% or better, it's money well spent.

Other countries are not fighting the same demons we are. Walls work for communists, socialists, dictatorships and countries that are at war... then, they work temporarily.

A wall works to keep people out no matter if there is a conflict or not. You can't say a wall will work on people who are at war but not for people who are not. A wall either works or it doesn't.

Korean Ginseng may help you if you have a sexual problem; it will do NOTHING for diarrhea. The solution has to fit the problem.

And one solution to our problem is a wall.

The wall is a solution looking for a problem to solve.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Do we have to educate you yet AGAIN?

You're a real self-convinced pretentious narcissist, aren't ya? You need to educate people? Oh Lord, look fellow USMB members, we have a teacher now that knows more than any of us and willing to bless us with his presence.

The market is not being flooded with cheap labor per se. It is being filled with people whose American counterparts you have no use for.

I have no idea WTF that's even supposed to mean.

Go back to post # 971. You were informed, with accurate figures, that about 11 million people have been diagnosed with ADD / ADHD YOUR claim is that you have it, but don't take your meds. YOU claim it is a real and legitimate condition. You have made much ado about the public having a right to know the private business of individuals, so you just knocked 11 million people out of the job market. Who wants an employee with a mental health condition?

You're the one who keeps dwelling on this mental health thing. I never said a word about it. You keep inserting things I've never even brought up yet alone discussed.

Between drug addicts and people with a criminal history, you have more than 17 million people that, for all intents and purposes, are UNEMPLOYABLE. And you don't want them to get a second chance and go back to work!

When I brought up the mental health issue as a relevant factor, you wanted a debate on it. You lost that side argument - but that is where it came from. I explained how it comes down to Americans getting locked out of the system through no initial fault of their own. So, refresh your memory. Reread posts # 946 through # 979. You posting a hundred and fifty posts a day to hide what has already been established won't hide the truth.

You are all over the board. Before you think about keeping people out and putting up a wall, you should be thinking about who is going to fill the empty positions when your agenda would prohibit Americans from getting those jobs as they are at this very moment, due to a criminal history and / or mental problems that do not affect an individual's ability, BUT are used against them. AND they can NEVER rise above their past given your idea of utopia.

First off I never said nobody should have a second chance. I said it's up to employers to make that decision. And since it's a concern of yours, don't you think that perhaps, if employers get so desperate for workers because we rid our country of foreigners, that maybe those employers WILL take a chance at hiring some of these Americans?

Getting defensive aren't you? You shouldn't ask questions if you don't want answers. Since you are getting the beat down by multiple posters, you are slinging skeet, hoping the shotgun approach will work. It isn't.

Of course, you said people should not have a second chance. You said that when you wanted to open peoples personal lives up to the rest of the world. Americans don't forget and they do not forgive. Employers HAVE made that decision. Millions of Americans are permanently locked out of the job market over petty beefs that are years old.

There is a thing in the world to keep employers from hiring Americans who have been disenfranchised. Your job is driving a truck. My job is helping those who are locked out to get back on their feet and get a second chance.

There is a world of difference between listening to a truck driver try to convince us he has ALL the answers versus someone who spends their days trying to help people get back into the workforce, get a place to live, and become productive citizens. Hell, I got one guy in the mix that was convicted of a felony, but served only three months of his sentence. And, although he's been clean for a couple of years he can't even get a job at McDonalds. NOBODY will give him a second chance.

You keep parroting a lie, so the only thing we can do is keep showing you that you are full of crap. Your wall does not address at least 60 percent of the people who come here and don't have human registration papers. You worry about laborers.

I see colleges full of foreign students, foreigners taking BIG DOLLAR jobs like scientists, doctors, technology engineers, lawyers, and government employees. Now, that should concern you. A pissant fruit picker from Mexico is not near the threat you have as you do from the Muslims now in the U.S. Congress. But, don't let the facts get in your way.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I thought You Were trying to say in the good old Italian and German days we didn't have welfare, schools etc.
I'm saying so what, ? Immigrants past the first generation have always contributed to the economy.

I don't know what you're talking about, but we are 20 trillion in debt today. We don't have a generation to wait. We can do just fine without them and the associated costs. We can do without the murders, we can do without the drugs, we can do without the DUI's that kill Americans. We can do without all those things because we have enough of those problems with our own people. We don't need to be importing more problems.

Employers need laborers that will produce at a competitive wage just as you need your firearm for protection. I support YOUR Rights AND the EMPLOYER'S Rights. See how that works?

It's my right to own firearms. It's my right to self-defense. No employer has the right to hire illegals.

Employers, in our de jure / lawful / legal / CONSTITUTIONAL form of government have the Right to hire whomever they want.

Then how is it ICE are busting companies who are hiring illegals? Maybe the owners of these companies can say their rights were violated? If so, why has none even tried?

We have in America at least two separate and distinct governments operating here. One is the de jure / lawful / constitutional Republic as envisioned by the founders. The other government is a de facto / illegal / Federal - Legislative Democracy owned and controlled by elite multinational corporations.

In EVERY area of the law, the powers that be enforce some form of injustice that causes victims of it to ask, quite incredulously, how can they do that? The government gets away with it because people like you use all your time to pressure and lobby them, but don't have a clue as to what in the Hell you're doing. Politicians react to what will get them elected, NOT what is constitutional. The United States Supreme Court once opined that:

"The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land, and any statue, to be valid, must be in agreement. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail. This is succinctly stated as follows:

The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment, and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it.

An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.

Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principals follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it . . .

A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one.

An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law.

Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the land, it is superseded thereby..


No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it."

— Sixteenth American Jurisprudence, Second Edition, Section 177. (late 2nd Ed. Section 256)

ICE, the IRS and even the local county governments all violate the Constitution and it's because we have a land of dummies that cannot be taught the difference between POWER and AUTHORITY.

Your question is one I ask myself all the time. Just this week-end I asked some NRA reps at a gun show why they always play defense and NEVER go on the offensive and challenge unconstitutional gun laws. They could not answer me. I can tell you this:

I am responsible for me. If the government ever tries to bust my chops over who I hire, associate with, etc. I do have defenses that have not been used in courts, but rest assured I will use them. It's up to all of us to exhaust all of our nonviolent legal and political avenues of redress before resorting to extraordinary measures. And when the government fails to stand by the guarantees of the Constitution, it is the duty of the militia to serve as the last line of defense in a free nation.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

And then it was Christmas so we stopped for a moment to honor the birth of Christ and then resumed arguing.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

 

[bripat9643]

Nobody on the right is asking the government to "give" us anything. We are asking the government to stop something that we citizens cannot stop by ourselves. Big difference.

You are asking taxpayers to pay more than $25 billion for something that doesn’t work and that Trump promised Mexico would pay for. Furthermore, Trump is putting tens of thousands of people into custody in tent cities at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Trump is spending millions and millions and just making the situation worse.

If walls don't work, why have there been so many walls throughout history; why are there so many gated communities and resorts all over the rest of the world with walls; why do gated communities in the US have walls; why do the Vatican and Israel have walls; why do so many wealthy and/or famous US residents have walls around their homes; why do prisons have walls, why do military installations have walls; why are there walls or high fences around electrical installations, missile silos and panoply of other places?



.

As far as ladders go, how is a would-be illegal immigrant going to trek all the way to our border carrying a 30-foot ladder? (Oh, I forgot, you wackos are going to aid and abet.) Do you opponents of the wall know how clumsy and heavy a 30-foot ladder is or how much one costs? Have any of you ever tried to pull one up to the top of a tall wall with razorwire or barbed wire on its top, get the ladder and yourself over the top of such a barrier, then lower the ladder down the other side and climb down? Then, how does one get that ladder back over thesaid wall and down the other side for someone else to use? Haveany of you ever carried one, erected one, and used one? Even with climbing gear, if would-be illegal immigrants could get it to the border, it would still be a feat to get over and down the other side of such a wall. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that some incredibly fit, determined, equipped, and experiencedperson could get over such a wall with his belongings, how manymight that be out of say 5,000 people?





Are wall opponents so blinded by their ulterior motives that they refuse to or can't see that walls always have and still do deter the movement of people? Have they lost all sense of historical perspective, common sense,powers of observation, and reality? If they are delusional or in a state of deep denial, I hope they get help for Heaven’s sake.

LMFAO. By that kind of logic, how come that every empire in history ceased to exist?

China still exists, moron.

For now, but China is also 98.5 percent Han Chinese. Tell me the truth, since you want to argue about this, will you advocate shipping blacks to Africa once you get rid of the little brown people you hate so much?

Right on queue, out comes the accusations of racism. I thought you didn't insult people? Nah, you just call them Stalinists and racists if they want to defend their border. You are a disgusting piece of shit

 

[bripat9643]

the idiotic idea that a wall will present any substantial obstacle to anything except the Freedom and Liberties of the citizenry.

The idiotic idea that a wall will prevent a substantial barrier. Funny, walls, high walls, are substantial barriers everywhere else they are used. Just ask the Israelis. In fact, I hope Trump invites Israel to inspect his wall design and critique it for quality of construction. Here we have mostly poor vagabonds trying to enter the country on foot and a tall barrier is an "idiotic idea." What, will they just walk right through it? Jump over it with tall ladders? Or dig tunnels under it? The idea is to stop all but the most determined who will be greatly slowed down, while technological surveillance has time to pick them up and detect them.

A substantial obstacle to anything except the Freedom and Liberties of the citizenry. I see. So now you think there are masses of people trying to escape the USA to go south who cannot go through legal portals who will be interfered with because they cannot walk across the border into impoverished Mexico out in the middle of the desert. Because, Shit-For-Brains, these are the only "citizens" we can be talking about who have any freedoms or liberties that matter. Mexicans are NOT citizens of the USA and have have NO freedom or liberty even in their own country much less here.

Do us all a yuge favor and take a long walk off a short pier.

You don't get it. We are not Mexico and the Israelis are at war. Can't fix stupid.

You have a million excuses why walls work everywhere they are tried, but they won't won't work here.

They don't work everywhere they are tried. They are temporary fixes, at best.

Name one place they didn't work. They are far more permanent than anything you are proposing. That's why you oppose them.

 

[bripat9643]

I don't know what you're talking about, but we are 20 trillion in debt today. We don't have a generation to wait. We can do just fine without them and the associated costs. We can do without the murders, we can do without the drugs, we can do without the DUI's that kill Americans. We can do without all those things because we have enough of those problems with our own people. We don't need to be importing more problems.

Employers need laborers that will produce at a competitive wage just as you need your firearm for protection. I support YOUR Rights AND the EMPLOYER'S Rights. See how that works?

It's my right to own firearms. It's my right to self-defense. No employer has the right to hire illegals.

Employers, in our de jure / lawful / legal / CONSTITUTIONAL form of government have the Right to hire whomever they want.

Then how is it ICE are busting companies who are hiring illegals? Maybe the owners of these companies can say their rights were violated? If so, why has none even tried?

We have in America at least two separate and distinct governments operating here. One is the de jure / lawful / constitutional Republic as envisioned by the founders. The other government is a de facto / illegal / Federal - Legislative Democracy owned and controlled by elite multinational corporations.

In EVERY area of the law, the powers that be enforce some form of injustice that causes victims of it to ask, quite incredulously, how can they do that? The government gets away with it because people like you use all your time to pressure and lobby them, but don't have a clue as to what in the Hell you're doing. Politicians react to what will get them elected, NOT what is constitutional. The United States Supreme Court once opined that:

"The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land, and any statue, to be valid, must be in agreement. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail. This is succinctly stated as follows:

The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment, and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it.

An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.

Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principals follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it . . .

A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one.

An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law.

Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the land, it is superseded thereby..


No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it."

— Sixteenth American Jurisprudence, Second Edition, Section 177. (late 2nd Ed. Section 256)

ICE, the IRS and even the local county governments all violate the Constitution and it's because we have a land of dummies that cannot be taught the difference between POWER and AUTHORITY.

Your question is one I ask myself all the time. Just this week-end I asked some NRA reps at a gun show why they always play defense and NEVER go on the offensive and challenge unconstitutional gun laws. They could not answer me. I can tell you this:

I am responsible for me. If the government ever tries to bust my chops over who I hire, associate with, etc. I do have defenses that have not been used in courts, but rest assured I will use them. It's up to all of us to exhaust all of our nonviolent legal and political avenues of redress before resorting to extraordinary measures. And when the government fails to stand by the guarantees of the Constitution, it is the duty of the militia to serve as the last line of defense in a free nation.

What does any of that have to do with building the wall? It's not a law. It's a physical structure. It has no more constitutional implications than the building of a highway. In fact it has less because the building of fortifications is actually authorized by the Constitution.

 

[bripat9643]

Why can't we put just as many guards per mile of wall as Israel?

Do you idiots ever think about the dumb shit you post?

I see you have NEVER thought about what you're posting.

I see that you are a moron because you post ideas that have already been debunked 1000 times.

NOTHING I've said has been debunked. It's the reason you've sunk to the low of throwing hissy fits and calling people names when they prove you wrong.

I use ridicule and insults because turds like you are immune to facts and logic. Only a certain about of pain will dissuade you from trying to propagate your idiocies. I attempt to make your behavior as painful as possible.

You use name calling and insults because the facts don't favor you and you are too stupid to have an intelligent conversation.

It must be Hell being you when people from both of the aisle are exposing you for what you are... and you're so delusional that you believe you have what it takes to be in the conversation. Little man, you don't pack the gear. You are the one always citing communist countries, communist solutions and telling people how great Mexico's laws are. Yet you stay in the United States.

BTW, since both the Israelis and Chinese use the border to protect a specific people, do you advocate shipping blacks back to Africa and getting rid of all the Muslims? China is 98.5 percent Han Chinese. Maybe if America were 98.5 percent white, your ideas might work.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Says the asshole who calls me a Stalinist and a racist. I use insults because turds like you are immune to facts and logic. Now you're claiming that walls are racist, and by extension, anyone who supports them is racist. You're a dumbass, of course. None of your theories have any visible means of support. All you're doing is making excuses for the success of all the actual examples of walls.

 

[bripat9643]

Keep in mind the wall is really an unknown factor. It may be solid or slats. It may have barbed wire, electric wire, or nothing on top. Once it's built it becomes a known factor and can not easily be changed. That means coyotes will figure out the fastest method of crossing which maybe ladders, climbing carabiners, or some type power lift. However, you can be sure once the fence is built people are going to cross it. You can't stop them No wall can keep people out if they have access to the right equipment. It can only delay crossing. People who have crossed existing border walls estimated that the delay would only be 1 to 2 minutes over current reinforced fencing. That might be useful in densely populated area but in remote ares which are 85% of the border a couple of minutes delay would be meaningless.

Then why are other countries with similar problems to the US reporting great success with their wall? Will it stop each and every one? Probably not. But if the reduction is 75% or better, it's money well spent.

Other countries are not fighting the same demons we are. Walls work for communists, socialists, dictatorships and countries that are at war... then, they work temporarily.

A wall works to keep people out no matter if there is a conflict or not. You can't say a wall will work on people who are at war but not for people who are not. A wall either works or it doesn't.

How effective do think a prison wall would be if the guards were say 5 or 10 miles away. That's the situation you would have on most of the border. All it takes to go over a wall is a ladder and a couple of minutes.

First problem is paying for the cost of a ladder that can reach that height. Second problem is getting the ladder to the wall undetected. Third problem is getting on to the 40 foot wall undetected. Fourth problem is how to get down from the top of the wall. Fifth problem is getting to the other side undetected. The more people involved or using the ladder, the easier they are detected.

The wall will likely not be there alone. We will still have boarder security in place, drones and even cameras.

Flopper stupidly assumes that we will have border patrol stationed only every 60 miles since he says it would take them 30 minutes to get to any spot on the wall. How many people would it take to have border patrol stationed every 5 miles? Then it would take 2 1/2 minutes to get to any point on the wall. The agents could simply wait in their building monitoring the wall with cameras on the wall and/or with drones. Long before any potential border crossers got to the wall, the border patrol could be there waiting for them.

Idiots like Flopper claim the wall won't work only by claiming the border patrol is stupid. Yet these people are supposedly savvy enough to prevent border crossings without a wall. Nothing these idiots say makes sense on even basic level.

 

[dblack]

You want the government to give you a wall for whatever reason you can conjure up as the discussion proceeds. You don't really know why you want it, other than you think Trump is God and you have to move the goalposts accordingly. But, you want him to give you a wall.

Let me tell you, our industry is flooded with foreigners. Cheap companies don't want to pay good money and lazy Americans don't want to take the jobs. So more and more companies are turning to foreigners.

They come here and are operating 75,000 lbs vehicles on the road with no ability to read road signs. These are terrible drivers to boot. Yes, they are driving right next to your vehicle on the highway. Besides the danger to Americans, they are keeping our wages lower because companies can pay them squat.

It's not just my industry, it's happening in nearly every industry. The ones that don't work or work low wage jobs are costing us taxpayers billions of dollars every year. That's money I work for that could go to better things like taking care of our homeless vets or reduce the deficit. And I don't want to hear about all these phony advantages because the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

Industry is flooded with foreigners because people like you got hooked on drugs and can't think. So you sit on your ass all day, every day whining about a wall around America.

You and more than 11 MILLION Americans could work a job, but choose not to. The jobs are out there - and at good wages. But, it is easier for some of you to sit around, living off the welfare, and not even wanting to create ways to get Americans back on the job.

And who built the welfare state the left, you.


.

Porter isn't "left". Neither am I. I know it gnaws at you, but the best arguments against your cowardly wall are coming from real conservatives and libertarians - not "the left".

You're obviously both a couple of commies.

You aren't fooling anyone.

Obviously.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Then why are other countries with similar problems to the US reporting great success with their wall? Will it stop each and every one? Probably not. But if the reduction is 75% or better, it's money well spent.

Other countries are not fighting the same demons we are. Walls work for communists, socialists, dictatorships and countries that are at war... then, they work temporarily.

A wall works to keep people out no matter if there is a conflict or not. You can't say a wall will work on people who are at war but not for people who are not. A wall either works or it doesn't.

How effective do think a prison wall would be if the guards were say 5 or 10 miles away. That's the situation you would have on most of the border. All it takes to go over a wall is a ladder and a couple of minutes.

First problem is paying for the cost of a ladder that can reach that height. Second problem is getting the ladder to the wall undetected. Third problem is getting on to the 40 foot wall undetected. Fourth problem is how to get down from the top of the wall. Fifth problem is getting to the other side undetected. The more people involved or using the ladder, the easier they are detected.

The wall will likely not be there alone. We will still have boarder security in place, drones and even cameras.

Flopper stupidly assumes that we will have border patrol stationed only every 60 miles since he says it would take them 30 minutes to get to any spot on the wall. How many people would it take to have border patrol stationed every 5 miles? Then it would take 2 1/2 minutes to get to any point on the wall. The agents could simply wait in their building monitoring the wall with cameras on the wall and/or with drones. Long before any potential border crossers got to the wall, the border patrol could be there waiting for them.

Idiots like Flopper claim the wall won't work only by claiming the border patrol is stupid. Yet these people are supposedly savvy enough to prevent border crossings without a wall. Nothing these idiots say makes sense on even basic level.

You are absolutely correct.

Our agencies that fight this problem have decades of experience. We have the best engineers in the world not to mention security forces. And while these forces support the Presidents idea of a wall.......they will simply take a ladder and jump over it according to those that are against a wall.

Like gee...........didn't it ever occur to these people that our security forces considered that already????

Yes.....we have posted links, stories, success of walls built in other places, yet they continue to try and convince us that those links are fake; walls are temporary; they will not stand the test of time.....

And it's my suspicion that none of these people ever carried a ladder large enough to accomplish this feat. I'm from a construction family. I worked as a laborer for my bricklayer father since the age of 11. I know what it's like to be three stories high with little around you to stop you from falling.

Deep down inside (regardless what they say here) they too know a wall would reduce drugs and illegals invading our country. Because if they really believed it would be a waste of time and money, they would welcome the idea of a wall to rub our noses in it for generations to come.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I don't know what you're talking about, but we are 20 trillion in debt today. We don't have a generation to wait. We can do just fine without them and the associated costs. We can do without the murders, we can do without the drugs, we can do without the DUI's that kill Americans. We can do without all those things because we have enough of those problems with our own people. We don't need to be importing more problems.

Employers need laborers that will produce at a competitive wage just as you need your firearm for protection. I support YOUR Rights AND the EMPLOYER'S Rights. See how that works?

It's my right to own firearms. It's my right to self-defense. No employer has the right to hire illegals.

Employers, in our de jure / lawful / legal / CONSTITUTIONAL form of government have the Right to hire whomever they want.

Then how is it ICE are busting companies who are hiring illegals? Maybe the owners of these companies can say their rights were violated? If so, why has none even tried?

We have in America at least two separate and distinct governments operating here. One is the de jure / lawful / constitutional Republic as envisioned by the founders. The other government is a de facto / illegal / Federal - Legislative Democracy owned and controlled by elite multinational corporations.

In EVERY area of the law, the powers that be enforce some form of injustice that causes victims of it to ask, quite incredulously, how can they do that? The government gets away with it because people like you use all your time to pressure and lobby them, but don't have a clue as to what in the Hell you're doing. Politicians react to what will get them elected, NOT what is constitutional. The United States Supreme Court once opined that:

"The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land, and any statue, to be valid, must be in agreement. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail. This is succinctly stated as follows:

The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment, and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it.

An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.

Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principals follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it . . .

A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one.

An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law.

Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the land, it is superseded thereby..


No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it."

— Sixteenth American Jurisprudence, Second Edition, Section 177. (late 2nd Ed. Section 256)

ICE, the IRS and even the local county governments all violate the Constitution and it's because we have a land of dummies that cannot be taught the difference between POWER and AUTHORITY.

Your question is one I ask myself all the time. Just this week-end I asked some NRA reps at a gun show why they always play defense and NEVER go on the offensive and challenge unconstitutional gun laws. They could not answer me. I can tell you this:

I am responsible for me. If the government ever tries to bust my chops over who I hire, associate with, etc. I do have defenses that have not been used in courts, but rest assured I will use them. It's up to all of us to exhaust all of our nonviolent legal and political avenues of redress before resorting to extraordinary measures. And when the government fails to stand by the guarantees of the Constitution, it is the duty of the militia to serve as the last line of defense in a free nation.

Right......because you are the arbitrator of what is constitutional and what is not.

Sorry, but your opinion is no more relevant than mine. Tell your representatives to pass the budge including the wall, and then take it to court yourself claiming unconstitutionality. We will all enjoy the laugh.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Do we have to educate you yet AGAIN?

You're a real self-convinced pretentious narcissist, aren't ya? You need to educate people? Oh Lord, look fellow USMB members, we have a teacher now that knows more than any of us and willing to bless us with his presence.

The market is not being flooded with cheap labor per se. It is being filled with people whose American counterparts you have no use for.

I have no idea WTF that's even supposed to mean.

Go back to post # 971. You were informed, with accurate figures, that about 11 million people have been diagnosed with ADD / ADHD YOUR claim is that you have it, but don't take your meds. YOU claim it is a real and legitimate condition. You have made much ado about the public having a right to know the private business of individuals, so you just knocked 11 million people out of the job market. Who wants an employee with a mental health condition?

You're the one who keeps dwelling on this mental health thing. I never said a word about it. You keep inserting things I've never even brought up yet alone discussed.

Between drug addicts and people with a criminal history, you have more than 17 million people that, for all intents and purposes, are UNEMPLOYABLE. And you don't want them to get a second chance and go back to work!

When I brought up the mental health issue as a relevant factor, you wanted a debate on it. You lost that side argument - but that is where it came from. I explained how it comes down to Americans getting locked out of the system through no initial fault of their own. So, refresh your memory. Reread posts # 946 through # 979. You posting a hundred and fifty posts a day to hide what has already been established won't hide the truth.

You are all over the board. Before you think about keeping people out and putting up a wall, you should be thinking about who is going to fill the empty positions when your agenda would prohibit Americans from getting those jobs as they are at this very moment, due to a criminal history and / or mental problems that do not affect an individual's ability, BUT are used against them. AND they can NEVER rise above their past given your idea of utopia.

First off I never said nobody should have a second chance. I said it's up to employers to make that decision. And since it's a concern of yours, don't you think that perhaps, if employers get so desperate for workers because we rid our country of foreigners, that maybe those employers WILL take a chance at hiring some of these Americans?

Getting defensive aren't you? You shouldn't ask questions if you don't want answers. Since you are getting the beat down by multiple posters, you are slinging skeet, hoping the shotgun approach will work. It isn't.

Of course, you said people should not have a second chance. You said that when you wanted to open peoples personal lives up to the rest of the world. Americans don't forget and they do not forgive. Employers HAVE made that decision. Millions of Americans are permanently locked out of the job market over petty beefs that are years old.

There is a thing in the world to keep employers from hiring Americans who have been disenfranchised. Your job is driving a truck. My job is helping those who are locked out to get back on their feet and get a second chance.

There is a world of difference between listening to a truck driver try to convince us he has ALL the answers versus someone who spends their days trying to help people get back into the workforce, get a place to live, and become productive citizens. Hell, I got one guy in the mix that was convicted of a felony, but served only three months of his sentence. And, although he's been clean for a couple of years he can't even get a job at McDonalds. NOBODY will give him a second chance.

You keep parroting a lie, so the only thing we can do is keep showing you that you are full of crap. Your wall does not address at least 60 percent of the people who come here and don't have human registration papers. You worry about laborers.

I see colleges full of foreign students, foreigners taking BIG DOLLAR jobs like scientists, doctors, technology engineers, lawyers, and government employees. Now, that should concern you. A pissant fruit picker from Mexico is not near the threat you have as you do from the Muslims now in the U.S. Congress. But, don't let the facts get in your way.

As I stated repeatedly, I don't care if somebody gets a second chance, I care about government mandating it from the private market.

I also care about the government (which is we the people) hiding information from those who interact with convicts.

The reason employers look down on hiring convicts is because they seldom change their ways. Oh.....they may for a while; to get a job, get an apartment, but somewhere along the line, they usually end up being problem.

I explained this in a personal story of when I rented to an ex-con. Because of him, my house was nearly burned to the ground. It cost me a lot of money and I couldn't' get insurance for three years after the event. In any case, what I do know about him is he's been imprisoned twice since that time, and is in prison today. If left to people up to you, these factors would be hidden from the next landlord he applies to in the future. And if he does another bad drug deal causing that landlord harm. Too bad.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Then why are other countries with similar problems to the US reporting great success with their wall? Will it stop each and every one? Probably not. But if the reduction is 75% or better, it's money well spent.

Other countries are not fighting the same demons we are. Walls work for communists, socialists, dictatorships and countries that are at war... then, they work temporarily.

A wall works to keep people out no matter if there is a conflict or not. You can't say a wall will work on people who are at war but not for people who are not. A wall either works or it doesn't.

Korean Ginseng may help you if you have a sexual problem; it will do NOTHING for diarrhea. The solution has to fit the problem.

And one solution to our problem is a wall.

The wall is a solution looking for a problem to solve.

Nope. The problem is there and has been for many years.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

At this point I think we need to test your knowledge here, so answer this one simple question:

In the theory of supply and demand, what happens to prices when there is too much supply?

You're a truck driver, not someone that deals with the laws of economics. Wouldn't your test questions be like Chuck Schumer asking a Marine to explain how his M16 works?

You don't need to be an economist to understand the supply and demand theory.

You have to have reasoning skills - which you have shown a lack of experience with.

You have your own little rating system for folks here, don't cha? You must be a leftist because you think the only person right is you. Forget evidence of what people post, forget about "logic" which you clearly don't have. Instead, replace that with unfounded wild conspiracy theories.

Now, would you like me to post some articles on Americans who either lost their job because of cheap foreign labor or had to work for less money because of them? I'm sure they're not that hard to find. In fact look up Disney and how they did exactly that.

I love the way you project, deflect, and misrepresent the facts when you are being owned by more than one poster. I don't have any "rating" system. Either you can hold a civil conversation or you can't.

Furthermore, no conspiracy theory has been offered up except that I feel the fix is in and you'll get your silly wall at the expense of gun owner's Rights.

NOBODY is losing their jobs here due to cheap foreign labor. Employers pay what they think a job is worth. If Disney goers think the help isn't paid enough, they can boycott the place and tell the corporate bigwigs they are outta there until they hire Americans at decent wages.

Which of course will never happen and you know it. And yes, people have lost jobs due to foreign labor. Again, I'm on vacation this week, and I'll be happy to Google it and post links if you'd like; starting with Disney.

 

[toobfreak]

the idiotic idea that a wall will present any substantial obstacle to anything except the Freedom and Liberties of the citizenry.

The idiotic idea that a wall will prevent a substantial barrier. Funny, walls, high walls, are substantial barriers everywhere else they are used. Just ask the Israelis. In fact, I hope Trump invites Israel to inspect his wall design and critique it for quality of construction. Here we have mostly poor vagabonds trying to enter the country on foot and a tall barrier is an "idiotic idea." What, will they just walk right through it? Jump over it with tall ladders? Or dig tunnels under it? The idea is to stop all but the most determined who will be greatly slowed down, while technological surveillance has time to pick them up and detect them.

A substantial obstacle to anything except the Freedom and Liberties of the citizenry. I see. So now you think there are masses of people trying to escape the USA to go south who cannot go through legal portals who will be interfered with because they cannot walk across the border into impoverished Mexico out in the middle of the desert. Because, Shit-For-Brains, these are the only "citizens" we can be talking about who have any freedoms or liberties that matter. Mexicans are NOT citizens of the USA and have have NO freedom or liberty even in their own country much less here.

Do us all a yuge favor and take a long walk off a short pier.

You don't get it. We are not Mexico and the Israelis are at war. Can't fix stupid.

You have a million excuses why walls work everywhere they are tried, but they won't won't work here.

They don't work everywhere they are tried. They are temporary fixes, at best.

Tell us where walls and barriers are used that don't work. And a temporary fix is better than no fix at all, and the Democrats represent a ZERO fix. But why Trump's wall is a "temporary" fix is beyond me--- --- --- what will happen, will it rust away in 150 years?