Why Libertarianism Is So Dangerous...

[RKMBrown]

I don't know that I would say theft holds any "qualities". What i will say, is that this sounds a lot like an argument I heard from one of our last decent congressman.

"I don't tell my patients when they come in that they have a touch of pregnancy. You're either pregnant, or you're not."

Same applies here, it's either theft or it is not. in the case of compulsory taxation, it is theft by the use of force and violence. The reason the state is not legitimate in my eyes is because it monopolizes the use of something it otherwise attempts to condemn and mitigate throughout the rest of society - force and violence. If you build a society on such blatant hypocracy as is done in comtemporary Statism, the results will ultimately be the same. Which is like I said, the power to tax is, was and will always, be abused. Always.

Sure. That's the basic anarchist argument, and I'm quite sympathetic to it. I think we can achieve a voluntary society at some point - but not in the foreseeable future. Until then, taxation - whether you consider it to be 'theft' or not - is ideally contained by the rule of law. That containment is rapidly slipping away and that's what we need to be addressing. Dismissing it as theft is pointlessly indulging an anarchist pipedream.

if the rule of law is in the hands of men to be bent, it is only a matter of time before the law is change to reflect the wants of the State. There is no indication that a volunatry society will ever come about. Ever. What men will do, is continue repeating the failures of history, probably for as long as we're here. Again the containment of the power to tax by the state, or the king, or what have you, will always slip away. The entire notion of the action is built upon aggression and with that, it will always lead to more and more aggression. There is no, adn never will be any containment to authorizing certain men to hold such power over others.

I'm not indulging a pipdream of the end of taxation or a volunatry society. What i AM doing, is pointing out the screaming obvious that most do not want to recognize.

Which was the point of the founders. Since we can't contain the authoritarian view that violent theft and enslavement is a necessity, then we will have to follow the founder's suggestions for frequent rebellions to reset the level of control that these tyrants erect over us. That or become sheep.

 

[bripat9643]

Sure. That's the basic anarchist argument, and I'm quite sympathetic to it. I think we can achieve a voluntary society at some point - but not in the foreseeable future. Until then, taxation - whether you consider it to be 'theft' or not - is ideally contained by the rule of law. That containment is rapidly slipping away and that's what we need to be addressing. Dismissing it as theft is pointlessly indulging an anarchist pipedream.

if the rule of law is in the hands of men to be bent, it is only a matter of time before the law is change to reflect the wants of the State. There is no indication that a volunatry society will ever come about. Ever. What men will do, is continue repeating the failures of history, probably for as long as we're here. Again the containment of the power to tax by the state, or the king, or what have you, will always slip away. The entire notion of the action is built upon aggression and with that, it will always lead to more and more aggression. There is no, adn never will be any containment to authorizing certain men to hold such power over others.

I'm not indulging a pipdream of the end of taxation or a volunatry society. What i AM doing, is pointing out the screaming obvious that most do not want to recognize.

Which was the point of the founders. Since we can't contain the authoritarian view that violent theft and enslavement is a necessity, then we will have to follow the founder's suggestions for frequent rebellions to reset the level of control that these tyrants erect over us. That or become sheep.

That was tried in 1861. It didn't work out to well.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Rebellion to the formation of the State as it is today, will only come after the promises made by rent seekers have been exhausted. Those promises will not be exhausted until the State has bankrupted the nation (it already has, really. But the cycle continues off the printing of money and the strong arm of military force). It will take another large scale war, economic calamity and by then it will probably be too late.

this little info-graphic meme comes to mind immediately:

 

[RKMBrown]

Rebellion to the formation of the State as it is today, will only come after the promises made by rent seekers have been exhausted. Those promises will not be exhausted until the State has bankrupted the nation (it already has, really. But the cycle continues off the printing of money and the strong arm of military force). It will take another large scale war, economic calamity and by then it will probably be too late.

this little info-graphic meme comes to mind immediately:

Sad but true. I'm constantly amazed at how many people willingly become wards of the state and in so doing willfully subjugate their neighbor to wage garnishment aka. enslavement.

 

[Erand7899]

Erand7899 argues that "What we do need is a party where conservative and libertarian principles are merged to form a winning combination that can satisfy both", not understanding conservatism does believe in government of, by, and for the people, and that taxation is a legitimate function of a conservative government of We the People.

Conservatism believes in limited government, and believes in reasonable taxation to support necessary government functions. Conservatism also believes that government should always be exercised by the lowest level of government consistant with efficiency and effectiveness.

I pay taxes to the county and state to provide police and fire protection, public schools, and local infrastructure. I do not need, and I do not desire any of these services from the federal government, and do not wish to pay federal taxes to support federal takeover of local and state functions.

I pay federal taxes to support the federal government in the scope set down by the United States Constitution. I do not need, and I do not desire the federal government to extend itself into any functions not specified as its responsibility by that Constitution.

 

[Contumacious]

My comment wasn't meant to make the general argument that taxation is theft. I was merely contrasting altruism as a personal concern for and willingness to help others, with state mandated wealth redistribution. Which isn't really taxation. Taxation is a power granted to government to finance it's necessary functions. Wealth redistribution is an abuse of the taxation power to address perceived inequities in the free market.

And even still, any compulsory taxation is theft. the power to tax is the power to use force and violence to obtain property that does not belong to you.

I don't think it is. Taxation may share some qualities with theft, but when contained to it's legitimate purpose - to fund government - it's hard to see it in the same category is arbitrary stealing. When it steps outside that purpose, and becomes a general tool to bully and manipulate society, it's worse than theft.

Well, that will work if and when we are governed by Angels.

The 16th Amended was adopted to punish the rich.

The withholding tax at source was a "temporary" war tax.

The sixteenth amendment was never lawfully adopted - federal "judges" refuse to hear the issue.

Ad nauseam

.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Erand7899 argues that "What we do need is a party where conservative and libertarian principles are merged to form a winning combination that can satisfy both", not understanding conservatism does believe in government of, by, and for the people, and that taxation is a legitimate function of a conservative government of We the People.

Conservatism believes in limited government, and believes in reasonable taxation to support necessary government functions. Conservatism also believes that government should always be exercised by the lowest level of government consistant with efficiency and effectiveness.

I pay taxes to the county and state to provide police and fire protection, public schools, and local infrastructure. I do not need, and I do not desire any of these services from the federal government, and do not wish to pay federal taxes to support federal takeover of local and state functions.

I pay federal taxes to support the federal government in the scope set down by the United States Constitution. I do not need, and I do not desire the federal government to extend itself into any functions not specified as its responsibility by that Constitution.

You have the right to your opinion, as wrong as it is. You are a libertarian wanting the conservatives to switch to your position. That will not happen.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And if we leave it to the Rule of Men we all will get screwed far worse.

That's precisely what you endorse. What else can you mean when you insist that a political philosophy must be "popular?"

As in popular government, as earlier defined as constitutional republican democracy.

You always lose if you have to face the entire statement, bootlicker.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Once again, libertarians, you have not yet come up with a consistent philosophy other than you hate taxes and at least one of you harbors less honorable motives than that.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Once again, libertarians, you have not yet come up with a consistent philosophy other than you hate taxes and at least one of you harbors less honorable motives than that.

Sure we have. You just can't seem to recognize it and continue to prod as though eventually we will come around to endorsing the welfare/warfare state.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Once again, libertarians, you have not yet come up with a consistent philosophy other than you hate taxes and at least one of you harbors less honorable motives than that.

Sure we have. You just can't seem to recognize it and continue to prod as though eventually we will come around to endorsing the welfare/warfare state.

Than give us a consistent philosophical statement. You can't. Or have not, anyway.

 

[RKMBrown]

Once again, libertarians, you have not yet come up with a consistent philosophy other than you hate taxes and at least one of you harbors less honorable motives than that.

WHAT YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND, AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL, IS THAT THIS IS A FREE COUNTRY AND THAT US FREE FOLK ARE NOT BEHOLDING TO YOUR DEMANDS FOR JUSTIFICATION FOR OUR CHOICES AND BELIEFS.

You sit on your pillar of power and demand free thinkers to defend their livelihood, their thoughts, their right to raise a family as they see fit?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Once again, libertarians, you have not yet come up with a consistent philosophy other than you hate taxes and at least one of you harbors less honorable motives than that.

WHAT YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND, AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL, IS THAT THIS IS A FREE COUNTRY AND THAT US FREE FOLK ARE NOT BEHOLDING TO YOUR DEMANDS FOR JUSTIFICATION FOR OUR CHOICES AND BELIEFS.

You sit on your pillar of power and demand free thinkers to defend their livelihood, their thoughts, their right to raise a family as they see fit?

Anger will not help you, and neither will deliberate misunderstanding.

If you want voters to elect your candidates, you better come up with something worthy. huh?

 

[Wry Catcher]

IMO those who believe taxes are theft have a duty to bring the offender - the thief - to justice. Each one of you who so believes needs to stop paying taxes. I suggest they singularly or in mass go to a big box store and put that $2,000 big screen on a cart, give the cashier the exact amount of money at which the TV was advertised and leave.

Doing so would make them a real member of the Tea Party, and then do as one of the first Libertarians - Henry David Thoreau - suggests in On the Duty of Civil Disobedience, go to jail on principle.


Postscript: Actually Libertarians have another choice. Leave the United States which you seem so displeased with and go to a nation wherein you can live free and unencumbered. I'm sure there is a nation where no taxes are stolen from the population, there is no gun control, public schools or other trappings of American Society.


Somalia comes to mind.

 

[Spoonman]

Link to follow:

PREAMBLE

As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

How does one ban "forece and fraud ... from human relationships"?

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.

IMO the Libertarian Platform is little different than that of Utopian Socialists in terms of practicality; Human Nature cannot be changed by platitudes.

Platform | Libertarian Party

said as he screams to remove individuals constitutional rights and ban guns. damn you are a master at slinging the bullshit

 

[Erand7899]

Erand7899 argues that "What we do need is a party where conservative and libertarian principles are merged to form a winning combination that can satisfy both", not understanding conservatism does believe in government of, by, and for the people, and that taxation is a legitimate function of a conservative government of We the People.

Conservatism believes in limited government, and believes in reasonable taxation to support necessary government functions. Conservatism also believes that government should always be exercised by the lowest level of government consistant with efficiency and effectiveness.

I pay taxes to the county and state to provide police and fire protection, public schools, and local infrastructure. I do not need, and I do not desire any of these services from the federal government, and do not wish to pay federal taxes to support federal takeover of local and state functions.

I pay federal taxes to support the federal government in the scope set down by the United States Constitution. I do not need, and I do not desire the federal government to extend itself into any functions not specified as its responsibility by that Constitution.

You have the right to your opinion, as wrong as it is. You are a libertarian wanting the conservatives to switch to your position. That will not happen.

No, I am a conservative with libertarian leanings. I not only have a right to my opinions, my opinions are always correct, or they would not be my opinions. You have a right to your opinions, but you should give those opinions some real thought. Try some of those critical thinking skills you learned in high school.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Conservatism believes in limited government, and believes in reasonable taxation to support necessary government functions. Conservatism also believes that government should always be exercised by the lowest level of government consistant with efficiency and effectiveness.

I pay taxes to the county and state to provide police and fire protection, public schools, and local infrastructure. I do not need, and I do not desire any of these services from the federal government, and do not wish to pay federal taxes to support federal takeover of local and state functions.

I pay federal taxes to support the federal government in the scope set down by the United States Constitution. I do not need, and I do not desire the federal government to extend itself into any functions not specified as its responsibility by that Constitution.

You have the right to your opinion, as wrong as it is. You are a libertarian wanting the conservatives to switch to your position. That will not happen.

No, I am a conservative with libertarian leanings. I not only have a right to my opinions, my opinions are always correct, or they would not be my opinions. You have a right to your opinions, but you should give those opinions some real thought. Try some of those critical thinking skills you learned in high school.

Some of your opinions in this case are wrong. Opinions are not valueless, ipso facto: that is a great falsehood. You are not critically thinking at all. Conservatives accept taxation as viable in order to run government. Stop the ad homming, it will get you in a corner from which you won't escape.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Link to follow:

PREAMBLE

As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

How does one ban "forece and fraud ... from human relationships"?

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.

IMO the Libertarian Platform is little different than that of Utopian Socialists in terms of practicality; Human Nature cannot be changed by platitudes.

Platform | Libertarian Party

said as he screams to remove individuals constitutional rights and ban guns. damn you are a master at slinging the bullshit

And you are dumb as a box of rocks.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

IMO those who believe taxes are theft have a duty to bring the offender - the thief - to justice. Each one of you who so believes needs to stop paying taxes. I suggest they singularly or in mass go to a big box store and put that $2,000 big screen on a cart, give the cashier the exact amount of money at which the TV was advertised and leave.

Doing so would make them a real member of the Tea Party, and then do as one of the first Libertarians - Henry David Thoreau - suggests in On the Duty of Civil Disobedience, go to jail on principle.


Postscript: Actually Libertarians have another choice. Leave the United States which you seem so displeased with and go to a nation wherein you can live free and unencumbered. I'm sure there is a nation where no taxes are stolen from the population, there is no gun control, public schools or other trappings of American Society.


Somalia comes to mind.

Using that logic, anybody being robbed at gunpoint has a duty to refuse the thief and be killed instead.

 

[dblack]

And even still, any compulsory taxation is theft. the power to tax is the power to use force and violence to obtain property that does not belong to you.

I don't think it is. Taxation may share some qualities with theft, but when contained to it's legitimate purpose - to fund government - it's hard to see it in the same category is arbitrary stealing. When it steps outside that purpose, and becomes a general tool to bully and manipulate society, it's worse than theft.

Well, that will work if and when we are governed by Angels.

It will work to the extent we maintain constitutionally limited government. That's what protects us from the fact that our leaders aren't angels.