CDZ Why not have a 'Universal Basic Income' to replace welfare?

[JimBowie1958]

I suspected this would be a lively thread. The country is not addressing what technology & productivity are doing to much of our work force, and we may not be ready to, yet. This train is coming down the tracks quickly, and we're just not ready..

And if we dont stop it with the knee jerk responses we wont be ready at all.

Bingo, and this is a great example of why I'm so maniacally against the behaviors of hardcore partisan ideologues. If they don't agree with an idea to any degree they'll dismiss the whole thing out of hand.

Addressing complicated issues requires an open mind, fundamental curiosity, intellectual elasticity, a measure of humility and the willingness to take one step at a time. But no, not in today's America.

Start with an idea like yours and work your way through it. See where it goes.
.

I completely agree except I must point out that UBI is not my idea; I have merely adopted it.

 

[saveliberty]

Universal Basic Income versus welfare? Because you just gave something a new term? Universal Basic Income seems to infer people have some economic value without any type of production or services rendered. Simply a lie wrapped up neatly in a PC term.

Well, it makes sense that you'd see that as a lie because neither of those is in fact what UBI is:

• Nobody here gave anything a new term.
• UBI is not welfare under a new name.

Sure, for convenience's sake, one can casually consider UBI welfare's equal, but the actuality is that the two are different. Check out this document, you'll discover the differences between welfare and UBI. Those differences are quite significant.

It certainly is welfare with a new title. Free money for the unproductive, redistributed by the government. At least be honest about the intent.

 

[saveliberty]

The very money you suggest be given represents labor and the value of a good or service. That is what money actually is. To suggest that it can be given away for the lifetimes of individuals shows a basic misunderstanding of what money, debt, and an economy are.

 

[Toro]

That's pretty socialist of you.

The left in many countries has made this argument for decades.

But you may be correct about technology and automation. If you are, this may be a solution.

UBI has absolutely ZERO to do with Socialism.

Socialism is about the control of production, and UBI has zip to do with that.

People in socialist political parties in Europe and Canada who want income redistribution have advocated this for decades.

Call it what you want but that's the circle you're running with.

 

[JimBowie1958]

It certainly is welfare with a new title. Free money for the unproductive, redistributed by the government. At least be honest about the intent.

Well how about we start with YOU being honest as well?

UBI would be MOSTLY going to EMPLOYED people, so it is not welfare.

UBI is not touching productivity, so it is not SOCIALISM.

And, believe it or not, MOST people feel a NEED to work in some capacity.

Most of us do not want to be lazy grifters like so many knee jerking conservatives seem to in their fantasy life.

 

[saveliberty]

I find the smoke and mirrors used by liberal socialists to be highly amusing. This is totally new they say, right....

 

[JimBowie1958]

People in socialist political parties in Europe and Canada who want income redistribution have advocated this for decades.

Call it what you want but that's the circle you're running with.

I think their motivations were very different,wanting to create a utopia of purely elective labor and no one feeling a need to work at all.

I am not arguing for that, but only for more of a sense of security for people that simplifies how we do the social safety net.

This, or something like it, will be necessary if we want to avoid social chaos as we move into a jobless economy.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I find the smoke and mirrors used by liberal socialists to be highly amusing. This is totally new they say, right....

If you want to discuss socialism, why dont you go start your own thread on that, mmk?

 

[saveliberty]

Well how about we start with YOU being honest as well?

UBI would be MOSTLY going to EMPLOYED people, so it is not welfare.

UBI is not touching productivity, so it is not SOCIALISM.

And, believe it or not, MOST people feel a NEED to work in some capacity.

Most of us do not want to be lazy grifters like so many knee jerking conservatives seem to in their fantasy life.

Actually, I brought up the point first, so in debate you are suppose to answer first. Unless you want to move this thread outside of the CDZ, I suggest you act like a debater.

 

[saveliberty]

I find the smoke and mirrors used by liberal socialists to be highly amusing. This is totally new they say, right....

If you want to discuss socialism, why dont you go start your own thread on that, mmk?

You are talking about it, not my fault you can't see it.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Actually, I brought up the point first, so in debate you are suppose to answer first. Unless you want to move this thread outside of the CDZ, I suggest you act like a debater.

I have been honest from the start.

UBI would be MOSTLY going to EMPLOYED people, so it is not welfare.

UBI is not touching productivity, so it is not SOCIALISM.

 

[saveliberty]

I get tired of the CDZ being used by weak debaters as a crutch to spout their poorly considered ideas.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I find the smoke and mirrors used by liberal socialists to be highly amusing. This is totally new they say, right....

If you want to discuss socialism, why dont you go start your own thread on that, mmk?

You are talking about it, not my fault you can't see it.

So you dont know what Socialism is, lol, great, so take it somewhere else, please.

 

[saveliberty]

Actually, I brought up the point first, so in debate you are suppose to answer first. Unless you want to move this thread outside of the CDZ, I suggest you act like a debater.

I have been honest from the start.

UBI would be MOSTLY going to EMPLOYED people, so it is not welfare.

UBI is not touching productivity, so it is not SOCIALISM.

No you ignore that this is socialism. Government controls production through keeping workers under employed. That would have been the honest answer.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I get tired of the CDZ being used by weak debaters as a crutch to spout their poorly considered ideas.

You havent proven any such thing. UBI is a needed approach to stablize our society as we move into a jobless economic system.

Too bad you cant understand that and thus have nothing of value to add to the discussion.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Government controls production through keeping workers under employed. That would have been the honest answer.

That is both ridiculous and NOT socialism

 

[saveliberty]

I find the smoke and mirrors used by liberal socialists to be highly amusing. This is totally new they say, right....

If you want to discuss socialism, why dont you go start your own thread on that, mmk?

You are talking about it, not my fault you can't see it.

So you dont know what Socialism is, lol, great, so take it somewhere else, please.

Afraid of the truth huh? I am not going anywhere. Paying anyone for more than their labor production is welfare. That is exactly what you propose. Further, socialism is controlled government production. Just what would you call paying for under production?

 

[saveliberty]

You havent proven any such thing. UBI is a needed approach to stablize our society as we move into a jobless economic system.

Too bad you cant understand that and thus have nothing of value to add to the discussion.

Creating a huge deficit is not stabilizing anything. Your grasp of economics is nonexistent.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Government controls production through keeping workers under employed. That would have been the honest answer.

That is both ridiculous and NOT socialism

Because Jim says so, not because it is reality.

There is a definition for the economic system of socialism, and none of it matches UBI, despite your best wishes it do so.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You havent proven any such thing. UBI is a needed approach to stablize our society as we move into a jobless economic system.

Too bad you cant understand that and thus have nothing of value to add to the discussion.

Creating a huge deficit is not stabilizing anything. Your grasp of economics is nonexistent.

UBI does not necessarily create huge deficits. There are many ways to pay for it as I explained in post 55.