Will the Trump's be homeless due to NY judges? (Poll)

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

LOL! Its not business, its working in filthy democrat run cities and states that got Trump in trouble.

Trump and his business associates undervalued property for taxes and overvalued property for loans.

That's against the law. That you don't like it means nada.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

 

[kyzr]

Again, the bank asks the customer to provide information to make that decision. They work on the basis that the person who wants the loan is telling the truth. Why? Because to lie is FRAUD and that's called BREAKING THE LAW.
The bank will go out there and try and figure out if that person is lying or not, but obviously it's not an exact science.
Also, it doesn't really matter, if a person commits fraud, you can't just blame it on the person who was the victim of that fraud. Fraud is AGAINST THE LAW.

To lie is fraud. Ever hear of "Caveat Emptor"?

 

[kyzr]

This is where people get confused. They think in terms they can relate to. Like when a bank hires an assessor to determine the value of a house for someone getting a mortgage. When dealing with large properties there are evaluating factors that would take looking at the owners books, and Trump wasn't going to show Deutchebank his real books.

Then the loan should have been denied. The loan had some verified basis for approval.
The basis for the loan can't be just the loan application.

 

[ThisIsMe]

No one said the SFC's had to exact.

But when you over value by 1000's of a percent and also claim your 11,000 sq/ft residence is 30,000 sq/ft as part of the over valuation, that goes well beyond the normal - ah - "Fudge Facotr". It doesn't have to be "exact". This is lying on business forms for profit (over valuation to get lower rates based on fraudulent submissions).

That is what Trump was was convicted of in civil court. 1 of (IIRC) 8 claims, the other 7 are scheduled for trial starting Monday.

WW

But what about the part where the bank does it’s own valuation? Doesn’t that play a part? If the bank doesn’t do their due dilligence, that would be their fault wouldn’t it?

 

[frigidweirdo]

To lie is fraud. Ever hear of "Caveat Emptor"?

You're literally trying to argue that fraud doesn't exist.

Yet, fraud happens all the time, and people get punished for it.

https://money.usnews.com/investing/stock-market-news/slideshows/biggest-corporate-frauds-in-history

 

[ThisIsMe]

You inflate the amount of money and assets you already own. The bank sees you're worth X amount of money that could be used as collateral. Trump is not just going to a bank and looking at the loan rates and deciding which one to take. He's going to different banks and saying "I want a loan, what can you give me?" They offer something, he says "nah, too much, let's go to dinner and here's a bribe, let's see how much you'll offer me now."

Wait..he’s now bribing the banks? Where is that listed? First I’ve heard of that..

 

[frigidweirdo]

Wait..he’s now bribing the banks? Where is that listed? First I’ve heard of that..

Bribery is a common part of the business world. They don't call it "bribery", but it's there and it exists.

Why would you do business with this person over this other person? Perhaps because they take you out for a lavish meal, perhaps they take you to an exclusive golf club.

I worked in an exclusive golf club in Scarsdale and the whole point of the golf club was to bring people, wine and dine, get golf pros to teach, converse, use their charisma to get what they wanted.

 

[ThisIsMe]

Bribery is a common part of the business world. They don't call it "bribery", but it's there and it exists.

Why would you do business with this person over this other person? Perhaps because they take you out for a lavish meal, perhaps they take you to an exclusive golf club.

I worked in an exclusive golf club in Scarsdale and the whole point of the golf club was to bring people, wine and dine, get golf pros to teach, converse, use their charisma to get what they wanted.

Ok, but that’s just supposition then. I mean, you can’t really say he’s bribing people, with no evidence, just because other people do it.

Even if he is…sounds like it’s common place..

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

kyzr is simply trolling. Trump and his people conspired to evaluate low for taxation purposes and high for loans.

That is fraud.

 

[meaner gene]

Then the loan should have been denied. The loan had some verified basis for approval.
The basis for the loan can't be just the loan application.

The bank believed Trumps figures, because if they weren't true, Trump would be guilty of business fraud. So they accepted Trumps figures.
But... stop the presses ... Trump lied to them, and was guilty of business fraud.
So the banks should never have given Trump financing. But that's all 20-20 hindsight.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Ok, but that’s just supposition then. I mean, you can’t really say he’s bribing people, with no evidence, just because other people do it.

Even if he is…sounds like it’s common place..

No, it's "legitimized bribery", just like "campaign donations" are.

You can't prove this stuff, it doesn't matter if you can prove it or not because it's LEGAL anyway.

Yes, SALES is common place. It's all about manipulating people. We see it as a very human thing.

 

[meaner gene]

But what about the part where the bank does it’s own valuation? Doesn’t that play a part? If the bank doesn’t do their due dilligence, that would be their fault wouldn’t it?

You mean like determining a buildings value based on how much money it generates through rent. Except Trump exaggerated the occupancy percentage, claiming higher occupancy for a loan, and lower occupancy for tax purposes.

Trump Tax Records Reveal New Inconsistencies — This Time for Trump Tower

Documents show the president’s company reported different numbers — higher ones to lenders, lower ones to tax officials — for Trump’s signature building. Last month, ProPublica revealed a similar pattern in two other Trump buildings.

www.propublica.org

In the latest case, the occupancy rate of the Trump Tower’s commercial space was listed, over three consecutive years, as 11, 16 and 16 percentage points higher in filings to a lender than in reports to city tax officials, records show.

For example, as of December 2011 and June 2012, respectively, Trump’s business told the lender that 99% and 98.7% of the tower’s commercial space was occupied, according to a prospectus for the loan. The figures were taken from “borrower financials,” the prospectus stated.

In tax filings, however, Trump’s business said the building’s occupancy was 83% in January 2012 and the same a year later. The 16 percentage point gap between the loan and tax filings is a “very significant difference,” said Susan Mancuso, an attorney who specializes in New York property tax.

 

[ThisIsMe]

You mean like determining a buildings value based on how much money it generates through rent. Except Trump exaggerated the occupancy percentage, claiming higher occupancy for a loan, and lower occupancy for tax purposes.

Trump Tax Records Reveal New Inconsistencies — This Time for Trump Tower

Documents show the president’s company reported different numbers — higher ones to lenders, lower ones to tax officials — for Trump’s signature building. Last month, ProPublica revealed a similar pattern in two other Trump buildings.

www.propublica.org

In the latest case, the occupancy rate of the Trump Tower’s commercial space was listed, over three consecutive years, as 11, 16 and 16 percentage points higher in filings to a lender than in reports to city tax officials, records show.

For example, as of December 2011 and June 2012, respectively, Trump’s business told the lender that 99% and 98.7% of the tower’s commercial space was occupied, according to a prospectus for the loan. The figures were taken from “borrower financials,” the prospectus stated.

In tax filings, however, Trump’s business said the building’s occupancy was 83% in January 2012 and the same a year later. The 16 percentage point gap between the loan and tax filings is a “very significant difference,” said Susan Mancuso, an attorney who specializes in New York property tax.

Ok, but are there not documents that show the buildings occupancy? Such as lease agreements and such? Wouldn’t the bank, or the tax officials, need to see those before making any decisions? I mean, how many banks, or irs agents just take the subjects word for it in these kinds of things? They all do their own investigations don’t they?

 

[meaner gene]

Ok, but are there not documents that show the buildings occupancy? Such as lease agreements and such? Wouldn’t the bank, or the tax officials, need to see those before making any decisions? I mean, how many banks, or irs agents just take the subjects word for it in these kinds of things? They all do their own investigations don’t they?

Those are business records.

Banks accepted Trumps records, because it was illegal for Trump to falsify them.

Again ... stop the presses ... Trump guilty of fraud, in falsifying business records.

So fire up the DeLorean, and travel back to the future and warn the banks that Trumps records were a fraud against them.

 

[kyzr]

The bank believed Trumps figures, because if they weren't true, Trump would be guilty of business fraud. So they accepted Trumps figures.
But... stop the presses ... Trump lied to them, and was guilty of business fraud.
So the banks should never have given Trump financing. But that's all 20-20 hindsight.

If a realty company says my house is worth $400,000 and I believe it is worth $500,000 and list it at $500,000 am I guilty of fraud?
Hell no. Its up to you to do "due diligence" when estimating property values.

 

[WorldWatcher]

If a realty company says my house is worth $400,000 and I believe it is worth $500,000 and list it at $500,000 am I guilty of fraud?
Hell no. Its up to you to do "due diligence" when estimating property values.

No.

If your home is worth $400,000 and you list it for $500,000 that is not against the law.

On the other hand.

If you are a business and if the property is worth $400,000 and you tell the tax man that it is only worth $100,000 and then go to a bank and submit legal documents to the bank claiming the property is worth $4,000,000 when it is not- that is illegal. Because your are submitting knowingly false business records.

If you are a business and if the property has 2000 sq/ft and you tell the tax man that it 1000 sq/ft and then go to a bank and submit legal documents to the bank claiming the property has 10,000 sq/ft - that is illegal. Because your are submitting knowingly false business records.
.
.
.
.
Why do people not understand we are not talking about an individuals home and a mortgage. We are talking uber elite financial investment planning worth 100's of millions in investments, loans, and insurance and the use of shell LLC's to shield risk.

The two are not remotely comparable.


WW

 

[WorldWatcher]

But what about the part where the bank does it’s own valuation? Doesn’t that play a part? If the bank doesn’t do their due dilligence, that would be their fault wouldn’t it?

Not relevant to the law in New York.

What the banks valuation was, whether they decided to issue or decline the financial investment doesn't matter.

The violation of the law is the sustained and persistent submission of false legal documents as part of doing business.

WW

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

If a realty company says my house is worth $400,000 and I believe it is worth $500,000 and list it at $500,000 am I guilty of fraud?
Hell no. Its up to you to do "due diligence" when estimating property values.

No, it is not up to the bank to police you. If you do that and get caught, you will go to prison.

 

[kyzr]

No. If your home is worth $400,000 and you list it for $500,000 that is not against the law. On the other hand.

If you are a business and if the property is worth $400,000 and you tell the tax man that it is only worth $100,000 and then go to a bank and submit legal documents to the bank claiming the property is worth $4,000,000 when it is not- that is illegal. Because your are submitting knowingly false business records.

If you are a business and if the property has 2000 sq/ft and you tell the tax man that it 1000 sq/ft and then go to a bank and submit legal documents to the bank claiming the property has 10,000 sq/ft - that is illegal. Because your are submitting knowingly false business records.
Why do people not understand we are not talking about an individuals home and a mortgage. We are talking uber elite financial investment planning worth 100's of millions in investments, loans, and insurance and the use of shell LLC's to shield risk. The two are not remotely comparable. WW

One more time.

Taxes are based on ASSESSED VALUE. Not the value you type on a form. They tell you what you are assessed at and what your taxes are.

I hear your argument that everything is based on some forms submitted by the owner for both taxes due and current value.

I just don't believe it. Assessed value can have different base years. Banks always have properties appraised before approving any loan, its standard business practice. You would need a link to prove that NYC has the "honor system" for property values.