YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[Hollie]

Guess you must have missed it. Answered in post #356.

It does not say why it is important that the Creator be the Christian god, nor does it address the question as to why it is so vitally important to you that this be seen as a Christian nation.

We are no longer a Christian nation. But we once were. It is vitally important for us to understand history, because the past influences the future. Revisionist try to change the past in order to influence current thought. It is important for me and for my children to know the REAL story about our nation, not the ACLU and atheist modified version.

I think it can be summed up in a few quotes by Gouverneur Morris as to where our nation is headed, and why it is important to me that we not eradicate our Christian Roots...

"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man toward God."- United States Founding Father, Signer and Penman of the Constitution, Gouverneur Morris, "The Life of Governeur Morris", Jared Sparks, (Boston: Gray and Bowen, 1832), Vol. III, p. 483, from his "Notes on the Form of a Constitution for France"

"The reflection and experience of many years have led me to consider the Holy writings not only as the most authentic and instructive in themselves, but as the clue to all other history. They tell us what man is, and they alone tell us why he is what he is: a contradictory creature that seeing and approving of what is good, pursues and performs what is evil. All of private and public life is there displayed. ... From the same pure fountain of wisdom we learn that vice destroys freedom; that arbitrary power is founded on public immorality." - United States Founding Father, Signer and Penman of the Constitution, Gouverneur Morris, "Collections of the New York historical Society for the Year 1821", (New York: E. Bliss and E. White, 1821), p. 30, from "An Inaugural Discourse Delivered Before the New York Historical Society byt the Honorable Gouverneur Morris", September 4, 1816 [/I]

When were "we" ever a Christian nation?

By what standard do "we" establish what you define as a Christian nation.

 

[Crackerjack]

Guess you must have missed it. Answered in post #356.

It does not say why it is important that the Creator be the Christian god, nor does it address the question as to why it is so vitally important to you that this be seen as a Christian nation.

We are no longer a Christian nation. But we once were. It is vitally important for us to understand history, because the past influences the future. Revisionist try to change the past in order to influence current thought. It is important for me and for my children to know the REAL story about our nation, not the ACLU and atheist modified version.

I think it can be summed up in a few quotes by Gouverneur Morris as to where our nation is headed, and why it is important to me that we not eradicate our Christian Roots...

"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man toward God."- United States Founding Father, Signer and Penman of the Constitution, Gouverneur Morris, "The Life of Governeur Morris", Jared Sparks, (Boston: Gray and Bowen, 1832), Vol. III, p. 483, from his "Notes on the Form of a Constitution for France"

"The reflection and experience of many years have led me to consider the Holy writings not only as the most authentic and instructive in themselves, but as the clue to all other history. They tell us what man is, and they alone tell us why he is what he is: a contradictory creature that seeing and approving of what is good, pursues and performs what is evil. All of private and public life is there displayed. ... From the same pure fountain of wisdom we learn that vice destroys freedom; that arbitrary power is founded on public immorality." - United States Founding Father, Signer and Penman of the Constitution, Gouverneur Morris, "Collections of the New York historical Society for the Year 1821", (New York: E. Bliss and E. White, 1821), p. 30, from "An Inaugural Discourse Delivered Before the New York Historical Society byt the Honorable Gouverneur Morris", September 4, 1816 [/I]

Fantastic. So how about if you teach your children history the way you want to, and I'll teach mine the way I want to?

 

[bodecea]

First you wanted "a single reference" to God. It was given to you. You cried, you denied, you pouted. Now you want a specific word that you know is not there. Little girl, your tantrum is over, go to bed, this discussion is over, and you did not make your point.

First, I required a single reference to christianity or to "gods" written in the constitution. You never provided that. You cannot provide that because ti does not exist.

Failing to do that, you have taken to lashing out like a petulant child.

Before you post nonsensical claims in a public discussion board, understand the material you are preaching.

Deny all you want. You were totally owned on this. There it is, right there in Article VII.... "In the Year of our Lord." This is a direct reference to Christ. This is the single reference you say does not exits. Again, repeating 100 more times won't just the fact you were totally skooled!!

No it isn't. It is the term for AD...added to all dates on all legal documents.

 

[bodecea]

I have given you mountains of proof. Did you even bother to check out any of the documents on the Yale Avalon project links? Apparently not. I really tire of these strawman debates. I am not claiming no freedom of religion. I am claiming the first colonies were founded by men who claimed the reason they traveled to the New World was for the glory of God and the advancement of the Christian faith. I am claiming that professing Christian men authored many of our founding documents. I am claiming the Christian inspired belief that our inalienable rights come from our Creator-capital C. I am claming that many of the founding documents prior to the US Constitution provided references to God and Jesus. I am claiming that Christian services were held in the House of Representatives for almost 100 years. I am claiming that numerous presidents held Christian beliefs and called on the nation to engage in those beliefs, including national days of fasting and prayer. I am claiming that even claimed diests like Ben Franklin called for prayer at the opening of the Constitutional Convention and made specific references to the Bible. I am claiming that one of the requirements to serve in the earlier colonial governments was to be a professing Christian.

And the Constitution expressly eliminated that requirement. You DO know that, right?

I am claiming the God of "In God We Trust" and "One Nation Under God" is the Christian God, not the Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Puritan, Hindu, or Muslim God.

Can anyone deny these claims?

People of those sects would be shocked to hear they are not Christian.

You miss both points entirely. Christian is a religion. Baptist, Methodist, etc. are denominations.

That changes nothing about what I pointed out.

 

[bodecea]

The nation is the people silly. The government is the people that think they know best for the rest of the people.

Ah, so the PEOPLE of the United States are christian? The Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Pagans, Hindus, Atheists etc would be interested in you stating that they don't count as part of "the nation."

You have presented a strawman... again.

No one said they don't count. Give me your tired, poor and huddled masses. But what is being claimed is that they were never a part of founding this nation. Go back and find my link to the online copy of the Alcoran of Muhammed and read the intros. You can see what the prevailing thought at the time was of Muslims.

This is what you said:

The federal government is required to be secular, the nation is not nor shall it ever be, God Willing.

I then asked what "the nation" was....and you replied "the people" ergo...you are saying that the people are not secular nor shall it ever be, God willing.......

You have just discounted all Americans who are secular and who don't go by your "God willing" remark.

 

[bodecea]

Might I remind observers to evaluate Christianity on its teachings and not on the flawed, fallen humans claiming Christianity. A Christian is defined as merely a Christ follower. So your lesson for today is to paint the picture of what a Christian looks like according to the Bible. If the person is claiming to be a Christ follower, but isn't described below, proceed with caution.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

1 Corinthians 13 (New International Version)

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

Nice quotes...but need I remind you, the bible is not the Cosntitution, nor is our government and laws based on the bible. (Tho The Song of Solomon might be an interesting take on our laws)

Bodey, the points of these points is zinging right over your head. This post was provided so observers would not pass judgement on Christianity based on people who are making that claim but their actions are not showing it. There was no inference to be drawn from this post regarding the relationship of the Bible to the Constitution. This phrase should have tipped you off "Might I remind observers to evaluate Christianity on its teachings and not on the flawed, fallen humans claiming Christianity."

But you just said "the nation" was "the people"...those "flawed, fallen humans"...Please make up your mind.

 

[bodecea]

By the President of the United States of America
A Proclamation March 30th, 1861

Whereas the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the supreme authority and just government of Almighty God in all the affairs of men and of nations, has by a resolution requested the President to designate and set apart a day for national prayer and humiliation; and

Whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord;

And, insomuch as we know that by His divine law nations, like individuals, are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people? We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven; we have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity; we have grown in numbers, wealth, and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us.

It behooves us, then, to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.

Now, therefore, in compliance with the request, and fully concurring in the views of the Senate, I do by this my proclamation designate and set apart Thursday, the 30th day of April, 1863, as a day of national humiliation, fasting, and prayer. And I do hereby request all the people to abstain on that day from their ordinary secular pursuits, and to unite at their several places of public worship and their respective homes in keeping the day holy to the Lord and devoted to the humble discharge of the religious duties proper to that solemn occasion.

All this being done in sincerity and truth, let us then rest humbly in the hope authorized by the divine teachings that the united cry of the nation will be heard on high and answered with blessings no less than the pardon of our national sins and the restoration of our now divided and suffering country to its former happy condition of unity and peace. In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the city of Washington, this 30th day of March, A. D. 1863, and of the Independence of the United States the eighty-seventh.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

By the President:

WILLIAM H. SEWARD, Secretary of State .

#1. What holiday is that now?

#2. Do we get off for it?

#3. Is it manditory to worship a christian god during it?

It's the same day. A google search prior to asking the question would save some wasted pages.

National Day of Prayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The National Day of Prayer (36 U.S.C. § 119)[1] is an annual day of observance held on the first Thursday of May, designated by the United States Congress, when people are asked "to turn to God in prayer and meditation". Each year, the president signs a proclamation, encouraging all Americans to pray on this day.[2] The modern law formalizing its annual observance was enacted in 1952, although it has historical origins to a mandate by George Washington, the first president of the United States.[3][4][5]

On the National Day of Prayer, Americans from all religious backgrounds turn to God in prayer for the United States.[6] Its constitutionality[UR: WOW!! REALLY?] was unsuccessfully challenged in court by the Freedom From Religion Foundation after their first attempt was unanimously dismissed by a federal appellate court in April 2011.[7][8][9]

#1. So it's a legal holiday?

#2. Do we get it off?

#3. Are we required to pray?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Those persecuted because of religious beliefs are often the most adamant about religious freedom, thus, the Respect no....lause. This was NEVER a "Chrsitian" nation. Among the Founders, there were more agnostics than of any other 'faith'.

You just make shit up with utterly no regard for fact at all, doncha?

I'd write it off to abject ignorance, but I suspect dishonesty is at play.

 

[newpolitics]

It doesn't matter if the founders were christian, which they weren't, they were deistic mostly. But even if they were, that has nothing to do with the constitution and country they intended to create.

 

[Uncensored2008]

It doesn't matter if the founders were christian, which they weren't, they were deistic mostly. But even if they were, that has nothing to do with the constitution and country they intended to create.

In fact, what you post is false. The founding fathers were overwhelmingly Christian, some like James Madison, were practicing ministers.

Madison, a Baptist, was particularly sensitive to ecumenical law interspersing with civil law. That he opposed a state church in no way alters the fact of him being a Christian. Jefferson never proclaimed himself a deist, but did lay claim as a Methodist. You could count the proclaimed deists on one hand, and the proclaimed Atheists on one finger - that would be Paine. Of 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, 48 were practicing Christians.

Religious Affiliation of Founding Fathers of U.S. - The Anglo-Reformed Movement

What the rewriters of history fail to grasp, is the importance of Churches to the revolution. The revolution was fomented from the pulpit. It was the ministers and pastors who incited the revolt against King George. The attempt by the modern left to alter history to remove the influence of Protestants on the revolution is amusing. It is an utter bastardization of reality.

 

[newpolitics]

It doesn't matter if the founders were christian, which they weren't, they were deistic mostly. But even if they were, that has nothing to do with the constitution and country they intended to create.

In fact, what you post is false. The founding fathers were overwhelmingly Christian, some like James Madison, were practicing ministers.

Madison, a Baptist, was particularly sensitive to ecumenical law interspersing with civil law. That he opposed a state church in no way alters the fact of him being a Christian. Jefferson never proclaimed himself a deist, but did lay claim as a Methodist. You could count the proclaimed deists on one hand, and the proclaimed Atheists on one finger - that would be Paine. Of 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, 48 were practicing Christians.

Religious Affiliation of Founding Fathers of U.S. - The Anglo-Reformed Movement

What the rewriters of history fail to grasp, is the importance of Churches to the revolution. The revolution was fomented from the pulpit. It was the ministers and pastors who incited the revolt against King George. The attempt by the modern left to alter history to remove the influence of Protestants on the revolution is amusing. It is an utter bastardization of reality.

AS I said, even if they were all fundamentalist christian, which they weren't (franklin was definitely a deist, who rewrote the bible taking out ALL of the supernatural parts, including the resurrection)... that has nothing to do with the new thing they created: the constitution. You're argument is fallacious at its core.

 

[Uncensored2008]

AS I said, even if they were all fundamentalist christian, which they weren't (franklin was definitely a deist, who rewrote the bible taking out ALL of the supernatural parts, including the resurrection)...

Franklin was indeed a Deist. Though it was Jefferson who was rewriting the New Testament to remove the supernatural parts, not Franklin.

Jefferson Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that has nothing to do with the new thing they created: the constitution. You're argument is fallacious at its core.

Again, Madison wrote the Constitution and was vocal in his objection to the concept of a government church. He feared that such a church would outlaw other denominations and faiths, as the Anglicans had done. The irony is that you now use the words of Madison in an attempt to do exactly what he feared, outlaw the practice of faith.

 

[newpolitics]

AS I said, even if they were all fundamentalist christian, which they weren't (franklin was definitely a deist, who rewrote the bible taking out ALL of the supernatural parts, including the resurrection)...

Franklin was indeed a Deist. Though it was Jefferson who was rewriting the New Testament to remove the supernatural parts, not Franklin.

Jefferson Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that has nothing to do with the new thing they created: the constitution. You're argument is fallacious at its core.

Again, Madison wrote the Constitution and was vocal in his objection to the concept of a government church. He feared that such a church would outlaw other denominations and faiths, as the Anglicans had done. The irony is that you now use the words of Madison in an attempt to do exactly what he feared, outlaw the practice of faith.

I stand corrected on Jefferson writing that bible. Thank you. However, how am I trying to outlaw the practice of faith?!! You are misrepresenting my position entirely, and making completely unfounded assumptions off the of the little i have given. I am not trying to outlaw the practice of faith, in private, but that is nothing the government can support, BY THE CONSTITUTION. The argument put forth in this thread is that america is a christian nation, which is what I was responding too, and refuting, only.

 

[UltimateReality]

Right!!!

Your turn.

What's the point in arguing? You information is made up and not based on history.

The use of the word Lord to reference Christ and God was common vernacular in the 17th and 18th centuries. This was entirely the result of the King James Translation that was completed in 1611. The word Lord appears 7,380 times in reference to God or Christ. So dictionary or no dictionary, that is what it meant.

Circular argument.

But just for your reference, since you didn't answer the other question...

Here is the entry from Websters 1828 Dictionary:

LORD, n.

1. A master; a person possessing supreme power and authority; a ruler; a governor.

Man over man he made not lord.

But now I was the lord of this fair mansion.

2. A tyrant; an oppressive ruler.

3. A husband.

I oft in bitterness of soul deplores my absent daughter, and my dearer lord.

My lord also being old. Gen. 18.

4. A baron; the proprietor of a manor; as the lord of the manor.

5. A nobleman; a title of honor in Great Britain given to those who are noble by birth or creation; a peer of the realm, including dukes, marquises, earls, viscounts and barons. Archbishops and bishops also, as members of the house of lords, are lords of parliament. Thus we say, lords temporal and spiritual. By courtesy also the title is given to the sons of dukes and marquises, and to the eldest sons of earls.

6. An honorary title bestowed on certain official characters; as lord advocate, lord chamberlain, lord chancellor, lord chief justice, &c.

7. In scripture, the Supreme Being; Jehovah. When Lord, in the Old Testament, is prints in capitals, it is the translation of JEHOVAH, and so might, I more propriety, be rendered. The word is applied to Christ, Ps. 110. Col. 3. and to the Holy Spirit, 2Thess. 3. As a title of respect, it is applied to kings, Gen. 40. 2Sam. 19. to princes and nobles, Gen 42. Dan. 4. to a husband, Gen. 18. to a prophet, 1Kings 18. 2Kings 2. and to a respectable person, Gen. 24. Christ is called the Lord of glory, 1Cor. 2. and Lord of lords, Rev. 19.

You do realize that these definitions are listed in order of preference, right?

Irrelevant. Pick the one that applies.

 

[UltimateReality]

As a side note, here is the preface to the 1828 Websters Dictionary:

In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed.. .No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.
- Preface

Irrelevant, unless you somehow think Noah Webster was a Founding Father.

Nope, just another piece of dirt in the MOUNTAIN of evidence of the permeation of Christianity in early American Culture.

 

[UltimateReality]

Neither lord...is mentioned in the constitution.

Wrong! The word Lord is specifically mentioned in Article VII. You got owned.

In an amendment to the constitution. Why do you assume "in the year of our lord", is the Christian lord as opposed to gods?

Yet another desperate attempt on your part to try and force your religion on others.

Wow, when you aren't cutting and pasting, you are clueless!!!

Article VII is not an ammendment!! And nice try on moving the goal post. You said there was no mention of Lord in the constitution and you are flat out wrong. Logic4U totally owned you.

 

[UltimateReality]

It does not say why it is important that the Creator be the Christian god, nor does it address the question as to why it is so vitally important to you that this be seen as a Christian nation.

We are no longer a Christian nation. But we once were. It is vitally important for us to understand history, because the past influences the future. Revisionist try to change the past in order to influence current thought. It is important for me and for my children to know the REAL story about our nation, not the ACLU and atheist modified version.

I think it can be summed up in a few quotes by Gouverneur Morris as to where our nation is headed, and why it is important to me that we not eradicate our Christian Roots...

"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man toward God."- United States Founding Father, Signer and Penman of the Constitution, Gouverneur Morris, "The Life of Governeur Morris", Jared Sparks, (Boston: Gray and Bowen, 1832), Vol. III, p. 483, from his "Notes on the Form of a Constitution for France"

"The reflection and experience of many years have led me to consider the Holy writings not only as the most authentic and instructive in themselves, but as the clue to all other history. They tell us what man is, and they alone tell us why he is what he is: a contradictory creature that seeing and approving of what is good, pursues and performs what is evil. All of private and public life is there displayed. ... From the same pure fountain of wisdom we learn that vice destroys freedom; that arbitrary power is founded on public immorality." - United States Founding Father, Signer and Penman of the Constitution, Gouverneur Morris, "Collections of the New York historical Society for the Year 1821", (New York: E. Bliss and E. White, 1821), p. 30, from "An Inaugural Discourse Delivered Before the New York Historical Society byt the Honorable Gouverneur Morris", September 4, 1816 [/I]

When were "we" ever a Christian nation?

By what standard do "we" establish what you define as a Christian nation.

The same standard you use for fitness to support the Darwinian myth.

 

[UltimateReality]

It does not say why it is important that the Creator be the Christian god, nor does it address the question as to why it is so vitally important to you that this be seen as a Christian nation.

We are no longer a Christian nation. But we once were. It is vitally important for us to understand history, because the past influences the future. Revisionist try to change the past in order to influence current thought. It is important for me and for my children to know the REAL story about our nation, not the ACLU and atheist modified version.

I think it can be summed up in a few quotes by Gouverneur Morris as to where our nation is headed, and why it is important to me that we not eradicate our Christian Roots...

"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man toward God."- United States Founding Father, Signer and Penman of the Constitution, Gouverneur Morris, "The Life of Governeur Morris", Jared Sparks, (Boston: Gray and Bowen, 1832), Vol. III, p. 483, from his "Notes on the Form of a Constitution for France"

"The reflection and experience of many years have led me to consider the Holy writings not only as the most authentic and instructive in themselves, but as the clue to all other history. They tell us what man is, and they alone tell us why he is what he is: a contradictory creature that seeing and approving of what is good, pursues and performs what is evil. All of private and public life is there displayed. ... From the same pure fountain of wisdom we learn that vice destroys freedom; that arbitrary power is founded on public immorality." - United States Founding Father, Signer and Penman of the Constitution, Gouverneur Morris, "Collections of the New York historical Society for the Year 1821", (New York: E. Bliss and E. White, 1821), p. 30, from "An Inaugural Discourse Delivered Before the New York Historical Society byt the Honorable Gouverneur Morris", September 4, 1816 [/I]

Fantastic. So how about if you teach your children history the way you want to, and I'll teach mine the way I want to?

Feel free to teach the lie. After all, its a free country. But your relativism won't change the absolute truth.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I stand corrected on Jefferson writing that bible. Thank you. However, how am I trying to outlaw the practice of faith?!!

The left has waged a 30 year war against Christians and actively seek to revoke the 1st amendment. Since you are arguing in favor of that position, then I accrue to you the actions of the anti-liberty left in general.

You are misrepresenting my position entirely, and making completely unfounded assumptions off the of the little i have given. I am not trying to outlaw the practice of faith, in private, but that is nothing the government can support, BY THE CONSTITUTION.

Again, that the government can outlaw the PUBLIC practice of faith is a violation of the 1st and of basic civil liberty. I understand that the position of the anti-liberty left is that they will graciously allow Christians to hide in a closet and pray, but should they utter a phrase on sacred, government ground, then woe be unto them.

The argument put forth in this thread is that america is a christian nation, which is what I was responding too, and refuting, only.

You made a false claim - one completely at odds with the facts. The nation was formed with a secular federal government. The overwhelming majority of those who formed said government were Christian, and 4 of 13 states had official, state churches. Which was completely consistent with the Constitution, since it was written for a federation, not for an Empire.

 

[UltimateReality]

First, I required a single reference to christianity or to "gods" written in the constitution. You never provided that. You cannot provide that because ti does not exist.

Failing to do that, you have taken to lashing out like a petulant child.

Before you post nonsensical claims in a public discussion board, understand the material you are preaching.

Deny all you want. You were totally owned on this. There it is, right there in Article VII.... "In the Year of our Lord." This is a direct reference to Christ. This is the single reference you say does not exits. Again, repeating 100 more times won't just the fact you were totally skooled!!

No it isn't. It is the term for AD...added to all dates on all legal documents.

Seriously?? Google is your friend...

Anno Domini (AD or A.D.) and Before Christ (BC or B.C.) are designations used to label or number years used with the Julian and Gregorian calendars. This calendar era is based on the traditionally reckoned year of the conception or birth of Jesus of Nazareth, with AD counting years after the start of this epoch, and BC denoting years before the start of the epoch. There is no year zero in this scheme, so the year AD 1 immediately follows the year 1 BC. This dating system was devised in 525, but was not widely used until after 800.[1]