YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[Hollie]

As a side note, here is the preface to the 1828 Websters Dictionary:

In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed.. .No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.
- Preface

Irrelevant, unless you somehow think Noah Webster was a Founding Father.

Nope, just another piece of dirt in the MOUNTAIN of evidence of the permeation of Christianity in early American Culture.

And we can be thankful that the FF's knew all too well the dangers wrought by the permeation of the Christian religion into society which is why they constructed a secular constitution.

 

[UltimateReality]

Ah, so the PEOPLE of the United States are christian? The Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Pagans, Hindus, Atheists etc would be interested in you stating that they don't count as part of "the nation."

You have presented a strawman... again.

No one said they don't count. Give me your tired, poor and huddled masses. But what is being claimed is that they were never a part of founding this nation. Go back and find my link to the online copy of the Alcoran of Muhammed and read the intros. You can see what the prevailing thought at the time was of Muslims.

This is what you said:

The federal government is required to be secular, the nation is not nor shall it ever be, God Willing.

I then asked what "the nation" was....and you replied "the people" ergo...you are saying that the people are not secular nor shall it ever be, God willing.......

You have just discounted all Americans who are secular and who don't go by your "God willing" remark.

That is not my quote and you are employing seriously flawed reasoning.

 

[UltimateReality]

#1. What holiday is that now?

#2. Do we get off for it?

#3. Is it manditory to worship a christian god during it?

It's the same day. A google search prior to asking the question would save some wasted pages.

National Day of Prayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The National Day of Prayer (36 U.S.C. § 119)[1] is an annual day of observance held on the first Thursday of May, designated by the United States Congress, when people are asked "to turn to God in prayer and meditation". Each year, the president signs a proclamation, encouraging all Americans to pray on this day.[2] The modern law formalizing its annual observance was enacted in 1952, although it has historical origins to a mandate by George Washington, the first president of the United States.[3][4][5]

On the National Day of Prayer, Americans from all religious backgrounds turn to God in prayer for the United States.[6] Its constitutionality[UR: WOW!! REALLY?] was unsuccessfully challenged in court by the Freedom From Religion Foundation after their first attempt was unanimously dismissed by a federal appellate court in April 2011.[7][8][9]

#1. So it's a legal holiday?

#2. Do we get it off?

#3. Are we required to pray?

Your arguing style is very juvenile. Are you in high school? No, Yes, No. What have you proven?

 

[UltimateReality]

It doesn't matter if the founders were christian, which they weren't, they were deistic mostly. But even if they were, that has nothing to do with the constitution and country they intended to create.

They were not mostly deist [common atheist revisionist ploy]. And it has everything to do with the country they intended to create.

 

[UltimateReality]

(franklin was definitely a deist, who rewrote the bible taking out ALL of the supernatural parts, including the resurrection

First, you are confusing Franklin with Jefferson. Do you even know what a Deist is? Modern day Deism has the core belief that God created the universe and then walked away. Under modern day Deism, God is not around and doesn't act within the creation. This was not the Deism of the Founders!!!! Geez, people! Instead of regurgitating the atheist party line, pick up a history book for goodness sake. Here is Deism of the founders in context...

Religion in Eighteenth-Century America - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

Franklin still believed in God and in a God that moved and worked in Creation. [Not a modern day Deist]. Franklin's plea for prayer at the Constitutional Convention:

"In the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor. To that kind Providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance?"

Religion and the Federal Government, Part 1 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

 

[UltimateReality]

Irrelevant, unless you somehow think Noah Webster was a Founding Father.

Nope, just another piece of dirt in the MOUNTAIN of evidence of the permeation of Christianity in early American Culture.

And we can be thankful that the FF's knew all too well the dangers wrought by the permeation of the Christian religion into society which is why they constructed a secular constitution.

So no comment on getting totally owned??

 

[Hollie]

Nope, just another piece of dirt in the MOUNTAIN of evidence of the permeation of Christianity in early American Culture.

And we can be thankful that the FF's knew all too well the dangers wrought by the permeation of the Christian religion into society which is why they constructed a secular constitution.

So no comment on getting totally owned??

You give yourself credit for nothing. I'm actually still waiting for a reference to the Christian gods in the constitution.

You've been avoiding that for some time.

 

[Hollie]

(franklin was definitely a deist, who rewrote the bible taking out ALL of the supernatural parts, including the resurrection

First, you are confusing Franklin with Jefferson. Do you even know what a Deist is? Modern day Deism has the core belief that God created the universe and then walked away. Under modern day Deism, God is not around and doesn't act within the creation. This was not the Deism of the Founders!!!! Geez, people! Instead of regurgitating the atheist party line, pick up a history book for goodness sake. Here is Deism of the founders in context...

Religion in Eighteenth-Century America - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

Franklin still believed in God and in a God that moved and worked in Creation. [Not a modern day Deist]. Franklin's plea for prayer at the Constitutional Convention:

"In the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor. To that kind Providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance?"

Religion and the Federal Government, Part 1 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

In your rush to force your gods onto Ben Franklin, its obvious he wavered regarding belief in gods.

Benjamin Franklin

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Richard Price. October 9, 1790.

Pro

"I am fully of your Opinion respecting religious Tests; but, tho' the People of Massachusetts have not in their new Constitution kept quite clear of them, yet, if we consider what that People were 100 Years ago, we must allow they have gone great Lengths in Liberality of Sentiment on religious Subjects; and we may hope for greater Degrees of Perfection, when their Constitution, some years hence, shall be revised. If Christian Preachers had continued to teach as Christ and his Apostles did, without Salaries, and as the Quakers now do, I imagine Tests would never have existed; for I think they were invented, notso much tosecure Religionitself,as the Emoluments of it. When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." (Benjamin Franklin, 1706-1790, American statesman, diplomat, scientist, and printer, from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780 http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...uotations.html

Con "In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when present to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings?....I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men." (Catherine Drinker Bowen. Miracle at Phaladelphia: The Story of the Constitutional Convention,MaytoSeptember1787. New York: Book-of-the-Month Club, 1966, pp. 125-126)

It is rarely noted that Franklin presented his motion after "four or five weeks" of deliberation, during which they had never once opened in prayer. More significantly, it is never mentioned that Franklin's motion was voted down! Fine Christians, these founding fathers. Furthermore, the context is usually ignored, too. He made the motion during an especially trying week of serious disagreement, when the convention was in danger of breaking up.Cathrine Drinker Bowen comments:

Yet whether the Doctor had spoken from policy or from faith, his suggestion had been salutary, calling an assembly of doubting minds to a realization that destiny herself sat as guest and witness in this room. Franklin had made solemn reminder that a republic of thirteen united states - venture novel and daring - could not be achieved without mutualsacrifice and a summoning up of men's best, most difficult and most creative efforts. (Bowen, p. 127) Quartz Hill School of Theology

A Parting Note.

About March 1, 1790, he wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion. His answer would indicate that he remained a Deist, not a Christian, to the end:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire,I thin the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

He died just over a month later on April 17. Quartz Hill School of Theology

 

[Crackerjack]

What's the point in arguing? You information is made up and not based on history.

The use of the word Lord to reference Christ and God was common vernacular in the 17th and 18th centuries. This was entirely the result of the King James Translation that was completed in 1611. The word Lord appears 7,380 times in reference to God or Christ. So dictionary or no dictionary, that is what it meant.

Circular argument.

But just for your reference, since you didn't answer the other question...

Here is the entry from Websters 1828 Dictionary:

LORD, n.

1. A master; a person possessing supreme power and authority; a ruler; a governor.

Man over man he made not lord.

But now I was the lord of this fair mansion.

2. A tyrant; an oppressive ruler.

3. A husband.

I oft in bitterness of soul deplores my absent daughter, and my dearer lord.

My lord also being old. Gen. 18.

4. A baron; the proprietor of a manor; as the lord of the manor.

5. A nobleman; a title of honor in Great Britain given to those who are noble by birth or creation; a peer of the realm, including dukes, marquises, earls, viscounts and barons. Archbishops and bishops also, as members of the house of lords, are lords of parliament. Thus we say, lords temporal and spiritual. By courtesy also the title is given to the sons of dukes and marquises, and to the eldest sons of earls.

6. An honorary title bestowed on certain official characters; as lord advocate, lord chamberlain, lord chancellor, lord chief justice, &c.

7. In scripture, the Supreme Being; Jehovah. When Lord, in the Old Testament, is prints in capitals, it is the translation of JEHOVAH, and so might, I more propriety, be rendered. The word is applied to Christ, Ps. 110. Col. 3. and to the Holy Spirit, 2Thess. 3. As a title of respect, it is applied to kings, Gen. 40. 2Sam. 19. to princes and nobles, Gen 42. Dan. 4. to a husband, Gen. 18. to a prophet, 1Kings 18. 2Kings 2. and to a respectable person, Gen. 24. Christ is called the Lord of glory, 1Cor. 2. and Lord of lords, Rev. 19.

You do realize that these definitions are listed in order of preference, right?

Irrelevant. Pick the one that applies.

Ah, no, that's not how it works. The first entry is much more likely to be the one used than the seventh, especially in the absence of context. However, we do have context, and the context points to an Enlightenment Creator tied to no specific religion.

Sorry.

 

[Crackerjack]

As a side note, here is the preface to the 1828 Websters Dictionary:

In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed.. .No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.
- Preface

Irrelevant, unless you somehow think Noah Webster was a Founding Father.

Nope, just another piece of dirt in the MOUNTAIN of evidence of the permeation of Christianity in early American Culture.

Moving the goalposts.

 

[Crackerjack]

We are no longer a Christian nation. But we once were. It is vitally important for us to understand history, because the past influences the future. Revisionist try to change the past in order to influence current thought. It is important for me and for my children to know the REAL story about our nation, not the ACLU and atheist modified version.

I think it can be summed up in a few quotes by Gouverneur Morris as to where our nation is headed, and why it is important to me that we not eradicate our Christian Roots...

"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man toward God."- United States Founding Father, Signer and Penman of the Constitution, Gouverneur Morris, "The Life of Governeur Morris", Jared Sparks, (Boston: Gray and Bowen, 1832), Vol. III, p. 483, from his "Notes on the Form of a Constitution for France"

"The reflection and experience of many years have led me to consider the Holy writings not only as the most authentic and instructive in themselves, but as the clue to all other history. They tell us what man is, and they alone tell us why he is what he is: a contradictory creature that seeing and approving of what is good, pursues and performs what is evil. All of private and public life is there displayed. ... From the same pure fountain of wisdom we learn that vice destroys freedom; that arbitrary power is founded on public immorality." - United States Founding Father, Signer and Penman of the Constitution, Gouverneur Morris, "Collections of the New York historical Society for the Year 1821", (New York: E. Bliss and E. White, 1821), p. 30, from "An Inaugural Discourse Delivered Before the New York Historical Society byt the Honorable Gouverneur Morris", September 4, 1816 [/I]

Fantastic. So how about if you teach your children history the way you want to, and I'll teach mine the way I want to?

Feel free to teach the lie. After all, its a free country. But your relativism won't change the absolute truth.

I know, everyone is wrong but poor, persecuted you.

 

[Crackerjack]

Your arguing style is very juvenile. Are you in high school? No, Yes, No. What have you proven?

So no comment on getting totally owned??

Irony.

You're a college freshman, right? I remember when I was that age and thought I knew everything ...

 

[UltimateReality]

And we can be thankful that the FF's knew all too well the dangers wrought by the permeation of the Christian religion into society which is why they constructed a secular constitution.

So no comment on getting totally owned??

You give yourself credit for nothing. I'm actually still waiting for a reference to the Christian gods in the constitution.

You've been avoiding that for some time.

 

[UltimateReality]

Irrelevant, unless you somehow think Noah Webster was a Founding Father.

Nope, just another piece of dirt in the MOUNTAIN of evidence of the permeation of Christianity in early American Culture.

And we can be thankful that the FF's knew all too well the dangers wrought by the permeation of the Christian religion into society which is why they constructed a secular constitution.

Funny you keep arguing a non-point and we just let you. Who here has claimed the Constitution is a Christian Document? In response to claims the US is a Christian nation, you began the false line of reasoning requesting proof God was mentioned in the Constitution, like that is the only test. Epic Fail.

 

[UltimateReality]

(franklin was definitely a deist, who rewrote the bible taking out ALL of the supernatural parts, including the resurrection

First, you are confusing Franklin with Jefferson. Do you even know what a Deist is? Modern day Deism has the core belief that God created the universe and then walked away. Under modern day Deism, God is not around and doesn't act within the creation. This was not the Deism of the Founders!!!! Geez, people! Instead of regurgitating the atheist party line, pick up a history book for goodness sake. Here is Deism of the founders in context...

Religion in Eighteenth-Century America - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

Franklin still believed in God and in a God that moved and worked in Creation. [Not a modern day Deist]. Franklin's plea for prayer at the Constitutional Convention:

"In the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor. To that kind Providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance?"

Religion and the Federal Government, Part 1 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

In your rush to force your gods onto Ben Franklin, its obvious he wavered regarding belief in gods.

Benjamin Franklin

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Richard Price. October 9, 1790.

Pro

"I am fully of your Opinion respecting religious Tests; but, tho' the People of Massachusetts have not in their new Constitution kept quite clear of them, yet, if we consider what that People were 100 Years ago, we must allow they have gone great Lengths in Liberality of Sentiment on religious Subjects; and we may hope for greater Degrees of Perfection, when their Constitution, some years hence, shall be revised. If Christian Preachers had continued to teach as Christ and his Apostles did, without Salaries, and as the Quakers now do, I imagine Tests would never have existed; for I think they were invented, notso much tosecure Religionitself,as the Emoluments of it. When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." (Benjamin Franklin, 1706-1790, American statesman, diplomat, scientist, and printer, from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780 http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...uotations.html

Con "In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when present to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings?....I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men." (Catherine Drinker Bowen. Miracle at Phaladelphia: The Story of the Constitutional Convention,MaytoSeptember1787. New York: Book-of-the-Month Club, 1966, pp. 125-126)

It is rarely noted that Franklin presented his motion after "four or five weeks" of deliberation, during which they had never once opened in prayer. More significantly, it is never mentioned that Franklin's motion was voted down! Fine Christians, these founding fathers. Furthermore, the context is usually ignored, too. He made the motion during an especially trying week of serious disagreement, when the convention was in danger of breaking up.Cathrine Drinker Bowen comments:

Yet whether the Doctor had spoken from policy or from faith, his suggestion had been salutary, calling an assembly of doubting minds to a realization that destiny herself sat as guest and witness in this room. Franklin had made solemn reminder that a republic of thirteen united states - venture novel and daring - could not be achieved without mutualsacrifice and a summoning up of men's best, most difficult and most creative efforts. (Bowen, p. 127) Quartz Hill School of Theology

A Parting Note.

About March 1, 1790, he wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion. His answer would indicate that he remained a Deist, not a Christian, to the end:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire,I thin the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

He died just over a month later on April 17. Quartz Hill School of Theology

Revisionist BS. Provide links.

 

[UltimateReality]

Circular argument.

You do realize that these definitions are listed in order of preference, right?

Irrelevant. Pick the one that applies.

Ah, no, that's not how it works. The first entry is much more likely to be the one used than the seventh, especially in the absence of context. However, we do have context, and the context points to an Enlightenment Creator tied to no specific religion.

Sorry.

The context is the time and culture in which it is written. Are you sorry for not being able to think logically?

 

[UltimateReality]

Fantastic. So how about if you teach your children history the way you want to, and I'll teach mine the way I want to?

Feel free to teach the lie. After all, its a free country. But your relativism won't change the absolute truth.

I know, everyone is wrong but poor, persecuted you.

Hollie, is this you under one of your many fake logins??

 

[bodecea]

Feel free to teach the lie. After all, its a free country. But your relativism won't change the absolute truth.

I know, everyone is wrong but poor, persecuted you.

Hollie, is this you under one of your many fake logins??

Interesting accusation. Do you have proof of a sock puppet?

 

[Hollie]

First, you are confusing Franklin with Jefferson. Do you even know what a Deist is? Modern day Deism has the core belief that God created the universe and then walked away. Under modern day Deism, God is not around and doesn't act within the creation. This was not the Deism of the Founders!!!! Geez, people! Instead of regurgitating the atheist party line, pick up a history book for goodness sake. Here is Deism of the founders in context...

Religion in Eighteenth-Century America - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

Franklin still believed in God and in a God that moved and worked in Creation. [Not a modern day Deist]. Franklin's plea for prayer at the Constitutional Convention:

"In the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor. To that kind Providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance?"

Religion and the Federal Government, Part 1 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

In your rush to force your gods onto Ben Franklin, its obvious he wavered regarding belief in gods.

Benjamin Franklin

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Richard Price. October 9, 1790.

Pro

"I am fully of your Opinion respecting religious Tests; but, tho' the People of Massachusetts have not in their new Constitution kept quite clear of them, yet, if we consider what that People were 100 Years ago, we must allow they have gone great Lengths in Liberality of Sentiment on religious Subjects; and we may hope for greater Degrees of Perfection, when their Constitution, some years hence, shall be revised. If Christian Preachers had continued to teach as Christ and his Apostles did, without Salaries, and as the Quakers now do, I imagine Tests would never have existed; for I think they were invented, notso much tosecure Religionitself,as the Emoluments of it. When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." (Benjamin Franklin, 1706-1790, American statesman, diplomat, scientist, and printer, from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780 http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...uotations.html

Con "In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when present to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings?....I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men." (Catherine Drinker Bowen. Miracle at Phaladelphia: The Story of the Constitutional Convention,MaytoSeptember1787. New York: Book-of-the-Month Club, 1966, pp. 125-126)

It is rarely noted that Franklin presented his motion after "four or five weeks" of deliberation, during which they had never once opened in prayer. More significantly, it is never mentioned that Franklin's motion was voted down! Fine Christians, these founding fathers. Furthermore, the context is usually ignored, too. He made the motion during an especially trying week of serious disagreement, when the convention was in danger of breaking up.Cathrine Drinker Bowen comments:

Yet whether the Doctor had spoken from policy or from faith, his suggestion had been salutary, calling an assembly of doubting minds to a realization that destiny herself sat as guest and witness in this room. Franklin had made solemn reminder that a republic of thirteen united states - venture novel and daring - could not be achieved without mutualsacrifice and a summoning up of men's best, most difficult and most creative efforts. (Bowen, p. 127) Quartz Hill School of Theology

A Parting Note.

About March 1, 1790, he wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion. His answer would indicate that he remained a Deist, not a Christian, to the end:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire,I thin the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

He died just over a month later on April 17. Quartz Hill School of Theology

Revisionist BS. Provide links.

The links are provided in my post.

Your primary contention is that your sweaty, frantic need to impose your religious beliefs on others fails when you don’t understand the subject matter.

Let's review some thoughts and opinions of Thomas Jefferson, shall we?


Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short


Regarding Government Meddling With Religion

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority."
--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of State or Church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies."
--Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural Address, 1805. ME 3:378

"To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2: 546

"It is proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe, a day of fasting and prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from. It must be meant, too, that this recommendation is to carry some authority and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription, perhaps in public opinion. And does the change in the nature of the penalty make the recommendation less a law of conduct for those to whom it is directed?... Civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents."
--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief... All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and... the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
--Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546


Regarding Religion Meddling with Government

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."
--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281

"I do not know that it is a duty to disturb by missionaries the religion and peace of other countries, who may think themselves bound to extinguish by fire and fagot the heresies to which we give the name of conversions, and quote our own example for it. Were the Pope, or his holy allies, to send in mission to us some thousands of Jesuit priests to convert us to their orthodoxy, I suspect that we should deem and treat it as a national aggression on our peace and faith."
--Thomas Jefferson to Michael Megear, 1823. ME 15:434

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."
--Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another."
--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78

"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
--Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173

"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
--Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
--Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813. ME 14:21


Regarding Criminal Acts

"The declaration that religious faith shall be unpunished does not give immunity to criminal acts dictated by religious error."
--Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98

"If anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise than as if it had happened in a fair or market."
--Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:548

"It is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere [in the propagation of religious teachings] when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order."
--Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

"Whatsoever is lawful in the Commonwealth or permitted to the subject in the ordinary way cannot be forbidden to him for religious uses; and whatsoever is prejudicial to the Commonwealth in their ordinary uses and, therefore, prohibited by the laws, ought not to be permitted to churches in their sacred rites. For instance, it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children. It is ordinarily lawful (or temporarily lawful) to kill calves or lambs; they may, therefore, be religiously sacrificed. But if the good of the State required a temporary suspension of killing lambs, as during a siege, sacrifices of them may then be rightfully suspended also. This is the true extent of toleration."
--Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:547

Primary Source of Quotations:
Home - Thomas Jefferson - Subject Research Guides at UVa Library

 

[Hollie]

Feel free to teach the lie. After all, its a free country. But your relativism won't change the absolute truth.

I know, everyone is wrong but poor, persecuted you.

Hollie, is this you under one of your many fake logins??

Aren't you the frantic, conspiracy theory addled fundie.

Why not support your acusation or acknowledge your claim as another lie.