You Were Warned...Pat. Act

[koshergrl]

sallow is doing his jack lew dance...nothing to see here folks....

They're all doing it. "This is nothing! There is no controversy, there are no scandals, it's just a few extremists who are alarmed at nothing!"

Creepy. I can't believe it's happening. I just keep my head down, do my thing, and hope they don't start rounding us up at church. Because I think that's eventually what's going to happen. I'm already hearing it from the leftists.

Jesus KG - don't "keep your head down" and "hope they don't start rounding us up". Lock & Load! If Obama and his Saddam Hussein-like regime of terror wants to come get us - I say COME GET SOME, cupcakes. Hell, the entire Seal community hates Obama and the libtards already. Who the fuck is he going to send for us, that fat passivist David Axelrod?

The best thing that could happen to this country would be a civil war. Libtards are a cancer who have shown nothing but contempt for the U.S. Constitution and our laws for over 100 years now. The only way to stop cancer is to cut it out of the host.

Oh I agree. But the beauty of what Obama's doing is that by the time you realize it's happening, it's over. It won't be any big sudden event. They're just going to pick one group at a time. I imagine everyone will load up quietly onto the trains and nobody will say much...just like the Nazis did it.

 

[P@triot]

It should NOT have been dismantled by Obama.

One of the very few areas in which he has been right is the whole war against terrorists thing. Obama was right to reneg on his "offer" to shut down Gitmo. And he was right to say "fuck your sovereignty" to Pakistan in order to finally enable the SEAL Team to GET Osama bin Laden. He is right, at least in general terms, in trying to continue the ability of the government to intercept the plots and plans of the terrorists BEFORE they get to make their moves.

Does this mean that there is no problem with The USA PATRIOT Act or with FISA or with the NSA intelligence gathering programs, etc? Fuck no. There ARE problems. But to give more weight to the defects in the programs than the power and the history of success it has brought is akin to tossing out the baby with the bath water. To do that would be pretty damn stupid.

PARTS of it DO need fine tuning and heightened attention, scrutiny and oversight. So? Let's do THAT.

The problem is, when has this country ever had "oversight"? That's an idealistic pipe-dream. History has taught us that whoever is given the power just lies and hides all evidence from the oversight committees.

Hell, the American people are supposed to have oversight over the entire federal government - how is that working out?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

And what exactly was Obama supposed to do? Presidents lack the authority to repeal acts of Congress. Or Bush, for that matter, who is something of a victim of the monster he created, or allowed to be created.

Moreover, do you honestly believe any post-9/11 president – democratic or republican – would seek to dismantle the anti-terrorist intelligence gathering apparatus?

Of course not.

There’s no way any president is going to leave himself open to being accused of being responsible for another 9/11 attack.

oh please when has that stopped a liberal before, constitutional process has never been an issue with them.

Issue an executive order, Obama loves those or hey make up some bs and challenge it in court, another favorite liberal tactic?

or how about when the dems controlled all three branches?

If the President had issued an EO to end the PA, the RW would do what they do...freak out.

"Soft on terror" "Muslim sympathizer" "Dictator" the frothing Hawks would foment and then they would ignore his EO like they did with GITMO.

The Democrats never "controlled" the three branches of government. They had a weak 60 vote majority, that included Lieberman, for something like two months. You think that guy would have voted to end the Patriot Act? McCain's other "little buddy"?

Correct.

EOs don’t trump acts of Congress

A majority of conservatives supported the PA when it was being administered by a republican president, their opposition to it today has more to do with the current occupant of the WH, not the provisions of the Act.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

It should NOT have been dismantled by Obama.

One of the very few areas in which he has been right is the whole war against terrorists thing. Obama was right to reneg on his "offer" to shut down Gitmo. And he was right to say "fuck your sovereignty" to Pakistan in order to finally enable the SEAL Team to GET Osama bin Laden. He is right, at least in general terms, in trying to continue the ability of the government to intercept the plots and plans of the terrorists BEFORE they get to make their moves.

Does this mean that there is no problem with The USA PATRIOT Act or with FISA or with the NSA intelligence gathering programs, etc? Fuck no. There ARE problems. But to give more weight to the defects in the programs than the power and the history of success it has brought is akin to tossing out the baby with the bath water. To do that would be pretty damn stupid.

PARTS of it DO need fine tuning and heightened attention, scrutiny and oversight. So? Let's do THAT.

The problem is, when has this country ever had "oversight"? That's an idealistic pipe-dream. History has taught us that whoever is given the power just lies and hides all evidence from the oversight committees.

Hell, the American people are supposed to have oversight over the entire federal government - how is that working out?

For it's entire history; and no.

It is not a pipe dream.

It is a largely forgotten and underutilized tool in modern times, however.

And it bloody well needed NOW.

 

[Trajan]

So what's your point? It's okay to be a criminal because (you allege) everybody else is a criminal too, they just don't get caught?

You do know that's an idiotic argument, right? I mean..you have to know that much.

Using that logic, we should release all murderers, based on the fact that sometimes, people get away with murder.

Of course that's an idiotic argument. And of course, I didn't make it. I want to see the entire administration taken down over this. Just as I wanted to see Bush taken down. I'm just sick to death of all the idiot sheep who can't see past their partisan noses. You sold us out when you supported Bush in creating the infrastructure for this*. You should be ashamed. The pretense of righteous indignation is just pathetic.

*assuming you did. My apologies if you didn't. I know many who are now up in arms did, however.

well, I guess I sold you out, I sppted the program then and do now.

I do share your angst regards those that won't admit that when it comes right down to brass tacks, obama is no better, in fact worse.

If the axiom that a goper who sticks his pee pee in the wrong place is a hypocrite due to the party line on family values, very well then, obama is just s bad if not worse.

I will say one thing on the sell out blurb, until such time as there is evidence clear and viable, then its not a sell out.

You're a thinker Dblack, (I know you from another site whether you realize it or not and we had this conversation ala fisa), we both know things are just not that simple, if we decide that the gov. is not worthy of trust, then where are we? We does that begin and were does that end?

The answer to either proposition is far to nebulous for sweeping statements ......I mean do you really think there is no value to this program at all?

 

[Billo_Really]

The Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act and the NDAA should all be repealed.

Taken collectively, they've nullified the Bill of Rights and compromised the US Constitution.

 

[Sallow]

The Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act and the NDAA should all be repealed.

Taken collectively, they've nullified the Bill of Rights and compromised the US Constitution.

AUMF too.

 

[Billo_Really]

AUMF too.

I agree.

 

[Oddball]

The Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act and the NDAA should all be repealed.

Taken collectively, they've nullified the Bill of Rights and compromised the US Constitution.

Along with the Department of Fatherland Security and the TSA....While we're at it, let's shitcan the BATF, DEA and IRS!

 

[Sallow]

It should NOT have been dismantled by Obama.

One of the very few areas in which he has been right is the whole war against terrorists thing. Obama was right to reneg on his "offer" to shut down Gitmo. And he was right to say "fuck your sovereignty" to Pakistan in order to finally enable the SEAL Team to GET Osama bin Laden. He is right, at least in general terms, in trying to continue the ability of the government to intercept the plots and plans of the terrorists BEFORE they get to make their moves.

Does this mean that there is no problem with The USA PATRIOT Act or with FISA or with the NSA intelligence gathering programs, etc? Fuck no. There ARE problems. But to give more weight to the defects in the programs than the power and the history of success it has brought is akin to tossing out the baby with the bath water. To do that would be pretty damn stupid.

PARTS of it DO need fine tuning and heightened attention, scrutiny and oversight. So? Let's do THAT.

He didn't reneg "the offer" on Gitmo..the Republicans point a poison pill into the NDAA, along with the indefinite detention clause.

Had he vetoed it..that would have been the end of his re-election chances.

The Patriot act stinks. It should be repealed and the Department of Homeland Security should be a bad memory.

 

[Oddball]

It should NOT have been dismantled by Obama.

One of the very few areas in which he has been right is the whole war against terrorists thing. Obama was right to reneg on his "offer" to shut down Gitmo. And he was right to say "fuck your sovereignty" to Pakistan in order to finally enable the SEAL Team to GET Osama bin Laden. He is right, at least in general terms, in trying to continue the ability of the government to intercept the plots and plans of the terrorists BEFORE they get to make their moves.

Does this mean that there is no problem with The USA PATRIOT Act or with FISA or with the NSA intelligence gathering programs, etc? Fuck no. There ARE problems. But to give more weight to the defects in the programs than the power and the history of success it has brought is akin to tossing out the baby with the bath water. To do that would be pretty damn stupid.

PARTS of it DO need fine tuning and heightened attention, scrutiny and oversight. So? Let's do THAT.

Won't ever quit trying to polish them neocon turds, willya Bluto?

 

[Sallow]

The Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act and the NDAA should all be repealed.

Taken collectively, they've nullified the Bill of Rights and compromised the US Constitution.

Along with the Department of Fatherland Security and the TSA....While we're at it, let's shitcan the BATF, DEA and IRS!

Yay..Ayatolla of Rock and Rolla!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfL4xKQeSfo]Mad Max 2 - The Lord Humungus - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Oddball]

The Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act and the NDAA should all be repealed.

Taken collectively, they've nullified the Bill of Rights and compromised the US Constitution.

Along with the Department of Fatherland Security and the TSA....While we're at it, let's shitcan the BATF, DEA and IRS!

Yay..Ayatolla of Rock and Rolla!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfL4xKQeSfo]Mad Max 2 - The Lord Humungus - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Billo_Really]

He didn't reneg "the offer" on Gitmo..the Republicans point a poison pill into the NDAA, along with the indefinite detention clause.

Had he vetoed it..that would have been the end of his re-election chances.

The Patriot act stinks. It should be repealed and the Department of Homeland Security should be a bad memory.

All this talk about government spending, how much did the the creation of the DHS cost us and under whose Administration was it created?

 

[g5000]

my understanding is this is being gathered under FISA, just expanded recently.

Your understanding is incorrect.

This has been going on since Bush.

 

[g5000]

The data gathering being done by Obama's administration is beyond that which is allowed by the patriot act.

BTW, wytchey, this is not a partisan issue.

Apparently you have not been paying attention until we had a Democrat in the White House.



For those who were under the gravely mistaken impression Bush never spied on Americans the way Obama is being hit for this week:

2006: NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.
The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

"It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.

Among the big telecommunications companies, only Qwest has refused to help the NSA, the sources said. According to multiple sources, Qwest declined to participate because it was uneasy about the legal implications of handing over customer information to the government without warrants.

Qwest's refusal to participate has left the NSA with a hole in its database. Based in Denver, Qwest provides local phone service to 14 million customers in 14 states in the West and Northwest. But AT&T and Verizon also provide some services — primarily long-distance and wireless — to people who live in Qwest's region. Therefore, they can provide the NSA with at least some access in that area.

After searching your phone records, Bush asked Congress to give retroactive immunity to the telecommunications companies which turned over your records:

The Bush administration maintains that the changes are consistent with FISA's intent--that targeting foreign communications doesn't require a warrant--and that a warrant is still required for "targeting a person in the United States." But civil-liberties advocates argue that the government is creating a loophole to monitor Americans' e-mails and phone calls to overseas contacts without the intended court approval.

The new law also immunizes from legal liability the private companies that assist the government with surveillance going forward, but Bush repeated existing calls for making that policy retroactive as well.

"It's particularly important for Congress to provide meaningful liability protection to those companies now facing multibillion-dollar lawsuits only because they are believed to have assisted in efforts to defend our nation, following the 9/11 attacks," Bush said.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation, which has sued AT&T over its allegedly illegal cooperation with the government, says references to the crippling liability posed by such suits suggest that the scope of the wiretapping is "massive."

Congress passed the law, giving them that immunity.


2007: FBI Violations May Number 3,000, Official Says

The Justice Department's inspector general told a committee of angry House members yesterday that the FBI may have violated the law or government policies as many as 3,000 times since 2003 as agents secretly collected the telephone, bank and credit card records of U.S. citizens and foreign nationals residing here.

Inspector General Glenn A. Fine said that according to the FBI's own estimate, as many as 600 of these violations could be "cases of serious misconduct" involving the improper use of "national security letters" to compel telephone companies, banks and credit institutions to produce records.

Bush breaking the law on a massive scale.







Let's seeeeee...what else. Oh yeah. Bush thought he could detain American citizens without habeas corpus:
Hamdi v. Rumsfeld

Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507 (2004), is a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court recognized the power of the government to detain enemy combatants, including U.S. citizens, but ruled that detainees who are U.S. citizens must have the rights of due process, and the ability to challenge their enemy combatant status before an impartial authority.

It reversed the dismissal by a lower court of a habeas corpus petition brought on behalf of Yaser Esam Hamdi, a U.S. citizen who was being detained indefinitely as an "illegal enemy combatant" after being captured in Afghanistan in 2001.

So there's solid evidence Bush was violating the Constitution.






And let us not forget the torture. Waterboarding and "enhanced interrogations".








Speaking of habeas corpus and violating the Constitution yet again: Boumediene et al v. Bush

The United States Supreme Court ruled 5-4 Thursday that prisoners held as “enemy combatants” at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba can immediately file habeas corpus petitions in US district courts challenging the legality of their confinement. Most have been held at the US naval base under brutal conditions, enduring solitary confinement and torture, for more than six years. None has ever had the merits of his case reviewed by a court of law.

 

[P@triot]

He didn't reneg "the offer" on Gitmo..the Republicans point a poison pill into the NDAA, along with the indefinite detention clause.

Had he vetoed it..that would have been the end of his re-election chances.

So you're saying that to Obama, his job and his power were more important to him than doing the right thing and you agree with that? Wow....

 

[Trajan]

It should NOT have been dismantled by Obama.

One of the very few areas in which he has been right is the whole war against terrorists thing. Obama was right to reneg on his "offer" to shut down Gitmo. And he was right to say "fuck your sovereignty" to Pakistan in order to finally enable the SEAL Team to GET Osama bin Laden. He is right, at least in general terms, in trying to continue the ability of the government to intercept the plots and plans of the terrorists BEFORE they get to make their moves.

Does this mean that there is no problem with The USA PATRIOT Act or with FISA or with the NSA intelligence gathering programs, etc? Fuck no. There ARE problems. But to give more weight to the defects in the programs than the power and the history of success it has brought is akin to tossing out the baby with the bath water. To do that would be pretty damn stupid.

PARTS of it DO need fine tuning and heightened attention, scrutiny and oversight. So? Let's do THAT.

He didn't reneg "the offer" on Gitmo..the Republicans point a poison pill into the NDAA, along with the indefinite detention clause.

Had he vetoed it..that would have been the end of his re-election chances.

The Patriot act stinks. It should be repealed and the Department of Homeland Security should be a bad memory.

now we get to the nub of it...what a hack..


keep on, keepin' on

 

[Trajan]

He didn't reneg "the offer" on Gitmo..the Republicans point a poison pill into the NDAA, along with the indefinite detention clause.

Had he vetoed it..that would have been the end of his re-election chances.

So you're saying that to Obama, his job and his power were more important to him than doing the right thing and you agree with that? Wow....

its ok though, remember the sallow mantra- left right, right wrong.

 

[Plasmaball]

Here's the thing...the loons want to blame the law, because it can be abused. Any law can be abused and misapplied...and they completely absolve Obama of any culpability for being the tyrant that is abusing it.

Speaking for myself, I'm not absolving Obama of anything. In particular, I'm not absolving those who voted for him. Especially not those who voted for him the second time around - after he had an entire term to reverse the policies of the Bush administration and refused. By that time he'd proven to be every bit the neo-con Bush was.

But the Republicans that supported the Patriot Act when their guy was in there, and oppose it when the other side has control are cowardly hypocrites.

The thing is though is Romrom would have done this as well.
So these same people like Kosher/allie would have been silent or made excuses for him. Know the source and the source you quoted is full of shit.