1 MEELLION Signatures!!!!

[Toddsterpatriot]

You do realize that when walker sued to have the GAB review the signatures based on his standards he cost taxpayers money to have the state handle his responsibility as challenger of the petition?



Why aren't rightwingers upset about that and how much he is costing taxpayers??

Furthermore are you concerned about how much outside money walker is getting to fight this as well?

The information on a recall petition is presumed to be valid unless proven otherwise.

That is what the law says so take your complaints to wisconsin. Oh and am I to take your lack of comment to mean that you are ok with walker wasting taxpayer money instead of footing the bill himself as the challenger of the petition?
No comments on the right wing outside money either?? Imagine that.

LOL

Yes, I'm okay with using taxpayer money to weed out the fraudulent signatures.
It would be better if the unions paid. Maybe Soros should cough up some dough?

 

[daveman]

The information on a recall petition is presumed to be valid unless proven otherwise.

That is what the law says so take your complaints to wisconsin. Oh and am I to take your lack of comment to mean that you are ok with walker wasting taxpayer money instead of footing the bill himself as the challenger of the petition?
No comments on the right wing outside money either?? Imagine that.

LOL

Yes, I'm okay with using taxpayer money to weed out the fraudulent signatures.
It would be better if the unions paid. Maybe Soros should cough up some dough?

Soros already paid for the signatures. You expect him to make sure they're legit, too? No fair!

 

[georgephillip]

Good, remove that harmful cancer from our government. If only we could band together to do that to our entire congress.

Those of us with multiple third party candidates already appearing on our ballots could easily do just that. If millions of mad-as-hell voters stopped "choosing" between Republican OR Democrat in the voting booth, we could FLUSH hundreds of incumbents from DC in a single news cycle.

November of 2012 would be a good time to start.

 

[Big Fitz]

Public school teachers don't really have private sector counterparts, so that statement has no meaning.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere about these things called private schools. I guess I could have imagined it.

Private school teachers do not have the same job as public school teachers because private schools do not have the same purpose and mission as public schools.

Private schools get to pick and choose their students, public schools do no. Public school teachers deal with large class sizes and a wider range of student abilities within the same class. Private school teachers have smaller class sizes and the range of learning ability between the best students and the worst students in their class is smaller. To compare the jobs as apples and apples is simply to ignore reality. The very fact that private school teachers generally are paid less - across the nation, in all states, regardless of how much power the teacher's union holds in a state - should tell you the job of being a private school teacher is easier than the job of being a public school teacher.

In my home state - where there is no teacher's union agreement with the government - and having attended both private and public schools in my life, I can tell you personally I would demand higher pay to teach in a public school vs. teaching in a private school because the job is harder.

Where did you hear that garbage?
I have two friends that teach at a private school. They correct papers on their own time, lesson plan on their own time, tutor students in school for no extra pay.
Don't spew this horseshit that private school teachers do not work just as hard as public school teachers.
Are you really going to present the misconception that kids from private school families cannot be just as big of a pain in the ass as public school kids? Nonsense.
You are fucking clueless.

I've driven bus for private schools. Sometimes they're in private schools because they've been EXPELLED from public school and nobody else will take them.

 

[Big Fitz]

Government workers should have to take a vow of poverty.

This is what right wingnuts really believe.

Actually this is what fitz believes.

The public sector should NEVER be superior in pay and benefit to the private sector employment. Ever. Lest it forget that they are public SERVANTS and the servant never makes more than it's master, the taxpayers... which in this case is only the upper 53% of wage earners in this nation.

Nevermind the fact that public sector workers are taxpayers too. LOL

Oh good we're gonna try that game, are we?

They're taxpayers too and are paying taxes that pay their own salary. Sorry, but I don't give a fuck about playing semantics with employee money that is taxed. You have a few holes in your theory's hull that are scuttling the whole notion.

1. Government MAKES money. No it doesn't. It takes money from industry, economic activity and individuals that DO make money. They then shuffle it around, taking a piece of the pie as it moves from earner to government to payout for someone else. The government then takes it's cut to pay for the people and resources to administer this taking of revenue out of the economy. That money is then taxed as income and brought back into the system. It's the company town trick. We pay you wages, but since there is no other store but the one the company owns, you have to give your wages right back to the company to keep alive. If you're lucky, they're honest and don't screw you on the prices and make you a slave. It minimizes their costs. Does the government earn anything? Nope. It's entropy on economic activity.

2. Since government employees pay taxes, it's their money and they're just 'normal people'. This is a deliberate mischaracterization of what's going on. The gubmint employee IS working. They are doing something for their job which is to shuffle paper or provide a service that generally couldn't survive without government involvement. So they DO earn money. The problem is that their employer DOESN'T earn money.

3. Public service should not be held accountable to market repercussions OR competence. In business, if you suck, you go out of business. In government, if you suck, tax more to cover your incompetence. Just because you work in the public sector does not make you any more pure or critical to the function of the economy. Often it's the opposite. You couldn't make it in the private sector, and went for the job security of a plebeian public service job where it takes an act of God to fire you when you're a fuckup and not doing your job. Private school teachers prove every day that public school teachers do not deserve bloated salaries and it can be done better and more efficiently than the public sector. Public employees and bureaucrats are not a noble class where they should not be held accountable to the repercussions of economics and policy, unlike the private sector. But they benefit from the payer of their wages is not the same person as their bosses. In the case of WEAC, this was worse because when the union went to the government for contract negotiation, they often put THEIR OWN PEOPLE on the other side of the negotiating board who, in essence did not pay for their salaries either, but the taxpayer as a whole did.

Now hold on, you want to scream "but the teachers pay taxes too!" and that is true. But they are disproportionate in scale to the benefits and wages they receive. Their neighbors who are being leeched on pay the vast majority of their increased wages. Of course you could try to say "but they benefit too as a member of the public!" and this could be true if they sent their kids to public school. But if they send them to private school for a better education, they actually receive no benefit and in fact are penalized for doing the better thing and paying a private school to educate their children. (hence why school vouchers and tax exemptions are awesome)

It is a corrupt system that has become unsustainable, and Walker grabbed it by the short and curlies, yanking it back from taking another chomp out of the taxpayers behinds.

Public sector employees are not saints, nor should they be a protected class. The fact they view themselves that way is revolting. Nor should they be slaves or forced into poverty. That's a strawman, because nobody is asking them to be one either. Your argument is predicated on these false assumptions or sly scams of semantics in order to justify corruption, elitism and cronyism, and at least in WI, that's finally ending.

 

[Old Rocks]

LOL. Yah, sure Wilson. And Walker will be ex-governor by the fall.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Then where did walker get his "experiences" in dealing with unions that he proclaims as at least some of his reasons for being against them? Was milwaukee county executive an appointed position or was he elected??




What does that nonsensical rant have to do with the fact that public union workers are taxpayers too or the fact that you get a seat at the table through your elected representatives??

You seem upset that your fellow taxpayers have a good deal that you don't believe that they deserve or earned so according to the arguments coming from the right that means that you must be jealous of their success.
If you have a problem with that logic you need only compain to the RNC.

Do you know what a closed union shop is?
Let us see who makes the most $$$: The President of the United States?
Let us take a look at the highest paid government worker in Wisconsin?
Would that be the Governor, the speaker of the House?
No, it would be the union employee that makes the investments that the taxpayers pay into the union workers retirement fund.
Must be nice. Where is my investment counselor that is paid 600K a year by the STATE OF WISCONSIN BY UNION CONTRACT?
This ain't rocket science here Moe.
And it gets worse my man. NINE OUT OF THE TEN highest paid public employees in Wisconsin sit on that investment board. Average salary last year 350K.

This is all being paid by the taxpayers. What we have now is that the public employees have been given a cradle to grave security blanket guaranteed job, benefits and retirement far better than what the taxpayers have on average.

Why are you folks so afraid of putting out to public bid all of these jobs and let the free market determine the value of those jobs?

Those of us that run corporations in the private sector know why. We know that these union employees are scared shitless because they know full well that there are tens of thousands of MORE qualified workers out there in better health, younger and will work harder for the same $$ and do a better job.
That is the sole purpose of unions. To protect the mediocre and less than average to the bottom employee.
Productive workers do not need a union. Our skills are so in demand we can negotiate on our own.
Something about the power of the individual, what this great country was founded on.

WOW More nonsensicial ranting from you and no answers to the simple questions that were asked. I wonder why that is? I answered your questions so why can you answer mine?

You still seem to be arguing as if public union workers are not tax payers and that is the major flaw in any argument where you try to pit the taxpayer against public workers because they are one and the same.

"You still seem to be arguing"..Stop it. That is not the OP's argument.
To square this away, yes public employees pay taxes. So what? here's the rub. Those workers benefit from those taxes. They essentially pay themselves. It is in the best interest of public workers for taxes to increase. The proof in that is when NJ enacted a 2% annual tax levy cap, the unions representing all 600,000 public workers in the State went bonkers. This is also why many individual workers that come one these forums argue for higher taxes and bigger government.
So please, don't try to come on here and imply there is a disconnect between what public workers are paid and how much in taxes they pay..
Oh, how many of them live in lower tax jurisdictions or even out of state? Lots.
When I was living in NJ there were three NYC police officers living on MY street and the next street up. Why? The taxes were lower in NJ than they were in the 5 boroughs back then. Plus the cost of housing was lower. They did not pay the higher NYC or other municipal property taxes.
Your argument holds water like a colander.

 

[Chris]

Thank you Scott Walker.

10 more electoral votes for Obama.

 

[frazzledgear]

I don't know if anyone posted this already, I've been away for at least a week.

However, Scotty Walker's A$$ is grass!!

Wisconsin recall petition gets over 1 million signatures; Democratic challenger Falk steps forward - The Washington Post

I know that Scotty and many or even most on the RW didn't expect such a LOUD denouncement of his radical hard-RW policies.

There is sure to be a re-election now, and none of their Big Corporate money could stop the juggernaut of the Will of the People!!

YES!!!!

Anyone who doesn't like what a government job pays -should fucking QUIT, join the REAL world and get a job in the private sector and help share the burden of paying for these services. There has NEVER been and never will be a shortage of people waiting in line to take their place no matter the government job.

BTW -getting the signatures was the easy part. Seriously -which is why a bunch of politicians were recalled but only 2 Republicans lost their seat -one in a heavily Democrat district where it was unusual he even won the first time out, and the other only lost because of his own personal peccadilloes that came out right before the recall election that was cited as the reason people voted against him in the recall -but NOT because of his stand with regard to public unions. Getting people to actually AGREE with you that they wish Walker had balanced the budget by raising taxes on them and had not kept their best interests foremost instead of the best interests of the bloated, filthy rich, greedy public unions who NEVER have the best interests of the state first no matter what -will be a totally different story.

First...No... I did not read your whole rant. I skimmed it and found two glaring flaming turds. One EVERYONE pays taxes...even government workers, which appears at a glance to be your big beef. Secondly in a capitalistic system EVERYONE has the right to make as much money as they can legally. You do not have the right to take that away unless YOU are a communist at heart and then you will rig the system to disenfranchise some groups so they cannot compete in the capitalistic system. Your slogans and bumper sticker logic does not have the priviledge to change definitions to suit your misinformation and personal fear driven greed. Plus you seem to think that most government jobs are easy.. I was a letter carrier out of high school and I can assure you that the U S Postal service is not full of slackers. If you do not believe that take a look at your mailman. Fat? Lazy? Not. They work just as hard as the UPS guys. Oh ya...I was a union rep..and the reason mailmen can wear running shoes and comfortable uniforms was my doing. Those improvements in equipment increased efficiency.

Sorry but you are an IGNORANT moron -and ignorant people are dangerous to us all. You just revealed your total lack of critical thinking skills but then you are a liberal and a lack of critical thinking skills is required. But I will try. Government gets its wealth by taxing the private sector -because government does not create wealth. It can only TAKE it from those who do. Wealth is created in the private sector. Are you following me so far on this one?

A government employee gets paid with a check drawn on government revenues. That means what is paid to a government employee is a DRAIN on government revenue. The fact income taxes were withheld only means the amount being drained is a little less. Private sector workers' paychecks are drawn on the company they work for -not government. That means any taxes withheld INCREASES government revenue. Get that yet? Government revenues come from the PRIVATE SECTOR and NOT from government workers who are DRAINING revenue. I can't believe this has to be explained to ANYONE. The taxes withheld from a government worker do NOT enrich government, they will never increase their coffers. Those sucking up at the public trough DRAIN government revenue and their salaries, benefits and pensions are among the bills everyone else in the PRIVATE SECTOR must pay for! The private sector pays for government, government services, government employees, entitlement programs. NOT those who work IN government who are actually part of the bill we have to pay for! Getting hired by government doesn't increase government revenue whatsoever -because what is being paid to the government employee is still far more than what was withheld. Every person who leaves the private sector and is hired by government increases the burden on everyone else in the private sector. Government employees NEVER - as in NEVER - increase the wealth of government because their income is a TOTAL DRAIN on government revenues -that were paid by PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYEES. Only private sector taxpayers increase the wealth of government! Public sector employees DRAIN it. PERIOD.

But here is the main difference between government employees and private sector workers. The income of the private sector worker is tied to his productivity and how much he/she is able to increase the wealth of the company or business. If they aren't productive and they are not contributing to its success -they lose their job. A government employee is paid out of government revenue -from money those in the private sector paid. A private sector workers is paid by the private business that employs him and other citizens are not responsible for his income, he doesn't answer to them, he doesn't work for them. A government employee works for those who pay him too. See above as to who pays him. A government employee doesn't own government just because they happened to get hired. He has no right to deny us the government services WE pay for. They aren't "poor, downtrodden, severely exploited" underdogs. If a government worker quit, the line of people waiting to take his place is never ending -never has been and never will be a shortage of people willing to belly up at the public trough. The average taxpayer does not have the salary, benefits and pension government workers have received -for doing a job that is divorced from PRODUCTIVITY and QUALITY. And their greed knows no bounds.

Public union thugs are behind the $9 million effort to recall Scott Walker -who ran on a platform of promising to balance the state budget without raising taxes on them all. He did it -and one of the ways he was able to do it was to rein in the unbridled GREED of public unions who don't give a rat's ass how much taxes are raised. See above as to where that money that goes to public unions and public union members originates -and remember, government does NOT create wealth. It gets its money to pay government employees and spend on their programs and pay their bills -by TAKING it from those who do create wealth. THE PRIVATE SECTOR. Public unions and government workers TAKE our money. What we get back in return is far more costly than the comparable job in the private sector but without the accountability, without it even being tied to productivity and quality of work like OURS is!

If you really can't grasp anything else, get this one -government does not create wealth. It takes some of the wealth from those who do create it. And that means government workers don't create wealth either -they, as part of government, can only TAKE some of the wealth from those who create it. When government cuts a government employee a check, that employee is DRAINING government revenue. Even though the amount of the check is reduced by withholding, it is still a DRAIN on government revenue. Again, government revenue comes from taxes paid by the private sector because government does not create wealth. It gets its own wealth from those who do create it -and it is created in the PRIVATE SECTOR. When a private sector employee receives his paycheck, it is being drawn on the bank account of that company -NOT government. That means the income taxes withheld INCREASE government revenue! Big DUH there Mr. I-used-to-be-a-union-rep who apparently is ASTONISHINGLY and TOTALLY clueless about our entire system, the origins of wealth and who foots the bills in this country!

So you were a union rep. Who did you negotiate with when it was time for contract renewals? Was it a POLITICIAN? Or a union negotiator who represented the interests of the other side? That isn't the situation when it comes to public unions. We don't elect union reps to negotiate with public unions on OUR behalf. And Democrats have repeatedly said they represent the best interests of the public unions -not those who pay the bills for them. And the politicians aren't around later to be held accountable when the bill comes due for what they stuck taxpayers with either, are they? Public unions GUARANTEES a corrupt, overblown, overpaid system with public union thugs buying politicians who will then use their power and influence on behalf of public unions -who then use their power and influence to use public union dues to get them re-elected. And lo and behold -that is exactly what we do have with Democrats being upfront about being in their pocket and representing THEIR interests. In states that still allow public unions to strike, the stink from the corruption can be smelled two states away. But do NOT kid yourself honey - at all times it is always PRIVATE SECTOR WORKER'S INCOME TAXES being funneled between them. WE foot the bills for the corruption and WE are the ones being played as suckers. I oppose the very existence of public unions as the hornet's nest and hotbed of stinking corruption it is.

So the recall of Walker poses a direct question to the people of Wisconsin about who really owns their government. Will they decide Walker fucked up and he really should have raised taxes on them so public unions could still hold government services hostage whenever they wanted to extort taxpayers again? Getting the signatures for a recall is the easy part. Something like 14 politicians faced recall in Wisconsin already -both Republicans and Democrats. Two Republicans lost their recall election -one who was elected as a fluke anyway from a heavily Democrat district -and the other involved in a financial and extramarital scandal that became public right before the recall election but would have probably won if that had not happened. Public unions have spent a FORTUNE in all these recall elections in their bid to wrest control from the PEOPLE of Wisconsin and claim it for themselves. And so far they have failed. But every fucking cent they spent on it -came from PRIVATE SECTOR TAXPAYERS. Because that is where government, government employees and public unions all get their dough. If the people of Wisconsin recall Walker in the belief he should have raised taxes on them and because they believe public unions own their government -then they deserve what they get. And what they will get will be even worse than what Walker had to deal with because public unions will come back with a vengeance to make up for the loss of millions from their coffers in their power grab. Public unions are concerned about public unions. Not the state of Wisconsin and absolutely not concerned about the people they stick with the tab.

Now do I need to tell you one more time where that money REALLY comes from or do you get it yet? If not, do us all a favor and take more classes on US government, Civics, economics and the origins of wealth - and wise up.

 

[Article 15]

Government workers should have to take a vow of poverty.

This is what right wingnuts really believe.

Actually this is what fitz believes.

The public sector should NEVER be superior in pay and benefit to the private sector employment. Ever. Lest it forget that they are public SERVANTS and the servant never makes more than it's master, the taxpayers... which in this case is only the upper 53% of wage earners in this nation.

Nevermind the fact that public sector workers are taxpayers too. LOL

Government workers are servants and the rest of us are their masters. Nice.

I think I was pretty damn close enough.

 

[HUGGY]

Anyone who doesn't like what a government job pays -should fucking QUIT, join the REAL world and get a job in the private sector and help share the burden of paying for these services. There has NEVER been and never will be a shortage of people waiting in line to take their place no matter the government job.

BTW -getting the signatures was the easy part. Seriously -which is why a bunch of politicians were recalled but only 2 Republicans lost their seat -one in a heavily Democrat district where it was unusual he even won the first time out, and the other only lost because of his own personal peccadilloes that came out right before the recall election that was cited as the reason people voted against him in the recall -but NOT because of his stand with regard to public unions. Getting people to actually AGREE with you that they wish Walker had balanced the budget by raising taxes on them and had not kept their best interests foremost instead of the best interests of the bloated, filthy rich, greedy public unions who NEVER have the best interests of the state first no matter what -will be a totally different story.

First...No... I did not read your whole rant. I skimmed it and found two glaring flaming turds. One EVERYONE pays taxes...even government workers, which appears at a glance to be your big beef. Secondly in a capitalistic system EVERYONE has the right to make as much money as they can legally. You do not have the right to take that away unless YOU are a communist at heart and then you will rig the system to disenfranchise some groups so they cannot compete in the capitalistic system. Your slogans and bumper sticker logic does not have the priviledge to change definitions to suit your misinformation and personal fear driven greed. Plus you seem to think that most government jobs are easy.. I was a letter carrier out of high school and I can assure you that the U S Postal service is not full of slackers. If you do not believe that take a look at your mailman. Fat? Lazy? Not. They work just as hard as the UPS guys. Oh ya...I was a union rep..and the reason mailmen can wear running shoes and comfortable uniforms was my doing. Those improvements in equipment increased efficiency.

Sorry but you are an IGNORANT moron -and ignorant people are dangerous to us all. You just revealed your total lack of critical thinking skills but then you are a liberal and a lack of critical thinking skills is required. But I will try. Government gets its wealth by taxing the private sector -because government does not create wealth. It can only TAKE it from those who do. Wealth is created in the private sector. Are you following me so far on this one?

A government employee gets paid with a check drawn on government revenues. That means what is paid to a government employee is a DRAIN on government revenue. The fact income taxes were withheld only means the amount being drained is a little less. Private sector workers' paychecks are drawn on the company they work for -not government. That means any taxes withheld INCREASES government revenue. Get that yet? Government revenues come from the PRIVATE SECTOR and NOT from government workers who are DRAINING revenue. I can't believe this has to be explained to ANYONE. The taxes withheld from a government worker do NOT enrich government, they will never increase their coffers. Those sucking up at the public trough DRAIN government revenue and their salaries, benefits and pensions are among the bills everyone else in the PRIVATE SECTOR must pay for! The private sector pays for government, government services, government employees, entitlement programs. NOT those who work IN government who are actually part of the bill we have to pay for! Getting hired by government doesn't increase government revenue whatsoever -because what is being paid to the government employee is still far more than what was withheld. Every person who leaves the private sector and is hired by government increases the burden on everyone else in the private sector. Government employees NEVER - as in NEVER - increase the wealth of government because their income is a TOTAL DRAIN on government revenues -that were paid by PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYEES. Only private sector taxpayers increase the wealth of government! Public sector employees DRAIN it. PERIOD.

But here is the main difference between government employees and private sector workers. The income of the private sector worker is tied to his productivity and how much he/she is able to increase the wealth of the company or business. If they aren't productive and they are not contributing to its success -they lose their job. A government employee is paid out of government revenue -from money those in the private sector paid. A private sector workers is paid by the private business that employs him and other citizens are not responsible for his income, he doesn't answer to them, he doesn't work for them. A government employee works for those who pay him too. See above as to who pays him. A government employee doesn't own government just because they happened to get hired. He has no right to deny us the government services WE pay for. They aren't "poor, downtrodden, severely exploited" underdogs. If a government worker quit, the line of people waiting to take his place is never ending -never has been and never will be a shortage of people willing to belly up at the public trough. The average taxpayer does not have the salary, benefits and pension government workers have received -for doing a job that is divorced from PRODUCTIVITY and QUALITY. And their greed knows no bounds.

Public union thugs are behind the $9 million effort to recall Scott Walker -who ran on a platform of promising to balance the state budget without raising taxes on them all. He did it -and one of the ways he was able to do it was to rein in the unbridled GREED of public unions who don't give a rat's ass how much taxes are raised. See above as to where that money that goes to public unions and public union members originates -and remember, government does NOT create wealth. It gets its money to pay government employees and spend on their programs and pay their bills -by TAKING it from those who do create wealth. THE PRIVATE SECTOR. Public unions and government workers TAKE our money. What we get back in return is far more costly than the comparable job in the private sector but without the accountability, without it even being tied to productivity and quality of work like OURS is!

If you really can't grasp anything else, get this one -government does not create wealth. It takes some of the wealth from those who do create it. And that means government workers don't create wealth either -they, as part of government, can only TAKE some of the wealth from those who create it. When government cuts a government employee a check, that employee is DRAINING government revenue. Even though the amount of the check is reduced by withholding, it is still a DRAIN on government revenue. Again, government revenue comes from taxes paid by the private sector because government does not create wealth. It gets its own wealth from those who do create it -and it is created in the PRIVATE SECTOR. When a private sector employee receives his paycheck, it is being drawn on the bank account of that company -NOT government. That means the income taxes withheld INCREASE government revenue! Big DUH there Mr. I-used-to-be-a-union-rep who apparently is ASTONISHINGLY and TOTALLY clueless about our entire system, the origins of wealth and who foots the bills in this country!

So you were a union rep. Who did you negotiate with when it was time for contract renewals? Was it a POLITICIAN? Or a union negotiator who represented the interests of the other side? That isn't the situation when it comes to public unions. We don't elect union reps to negotiate with public unions on OUR behalf. And Democrats have repeatedly said they represent the best interests of the public unions -not those who pay the bills for them. And the politicians aren't around later to be held accountable when the bill comes due for what they stuck taxpayers with either, are they? Public unions GUARANTEES a corrupt, overblown, overpaid system with public union thugs buying politicians who will then use their power and influence on behalf of public unions -who then use their power and influence to use public union dues to get them re-elected. And lo and behold -that is exactly what we do have with Democrats being upfront about being in their pocket and representing THEIR interests. In states that still allow public unions to strike, the stink from the corruption can be smelled two states away. But do NOT kid yourself honey - at all times it is always PRIVATE SECTOR WORKER'S INCOME TAXES being funneled between them. WE foot the bills for the corruption and WE are the ones being played as suckers. I oppose the very existence of public unions as the hornet's nest and hotbed of stinking corruption it is.

So the recall of Walker poses a direct question to the people of Wisconsin about who really owns their government. Will they decide Walker fucked up and he really should have raised taxes on them so public unions could still hold government services hostage whenever they wanted to extort taxpayers again? Getting the signatures for a recall is the easy part. Something like 14 politicians faced recall in Wisconsin already -both Republicans and Democrats. Two Republicans lost their recall election -one who was elected as a fluke anyway from a heavily Democrat district -and the other involved in a financial and extramarital scandal that became public right before the recall election but would have probably won if that had not happened. Public unions have spent a FORTUNE in all these recall elections in their bid to wrest control from the PEOPLE of Wisconsin and claim it for themselves. And so far they have failed. But every fucking cent they spent on it -came from PRIVATE SECTOR TAXPAYERS. Because that is where government, government employees and public unions all get their dough. If the people of Wisconsin recall Walker in the belief he should have raised taxes on them and because they believe public unions own their government -then they deserve what they get. And what they will get will be even worse than what Walker had to deal with because public unions will come back with a vengeance to make up for the loss of millions from their coffers in their power grab. Public unions are concerned about public unions. Not the state of Wisconsin and absolutely not concerned about the people they stick with the tab.

Now do I need to tell you one more time where that money REALLY comes from or do you get it yet? If not, do us all a favor and take more classes on US government, Civics, economics and the origins of wealth - and wise up.

You seem to need to get a lot off your chest. I hope all this venting was usefull towards that end.

There was far too much ranting to break it down and respond to each charge/indictment/opinion.

I regret my posts as it appears I have pushed you past the brink and possibly affected your health and well being.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yop62wQH498]"Annie" (1982) - Tomorrow - YouTube[/ame]

 

[drsmith1072]

The information on a recall petition is presumed to be valid unless proven otherwise.

That is what the law says so take your complaints to wisconsin. Oh and am I to take your lack of comment to mean that you are ok with walker wasting taxpayer money instead of footing the bill himself as the challenger of the petition?
No comments on the right wing outside money either?? Imagine that.

LOL

Yes, I'm okay with using taxpayer money to weed out the fraudulent signatures.
It would be better if the unions paid. Maybe Soros should cough up some dough?

That wasn't the question asked but thanks for the sidestep. Besides, they weeded out the fraudlulent signatures anyway but according to WI law duplicates were the responsibility of the challenger of the petition and that was walker. However he got a judge to legislate from the bench and add to the job description of the GAB and force them to do his job for him at taxpayers expense when he should have had to pay to what the state is now paying for.

Here is the law again for those who can't seem to get it on the first read.

Challenges to a Recall Petition
Within 10 days after a recall petition is offered for filing, the officeholder can challenge its sufficiency. The challenge must be made in the form of a written, sworn complaint.
The challenge must specify any alleged insufficiency in the petition. Any challenge to the validity of signatures on a recall petition must demonstrate by affidavits or other supporting evidence a failure to comply with statutory requirements. The burden of proof is on the challenger. The information on a recall petition is presumed to be valid unless proven otherwise. El.Bd. 2.11., Wis. Adm. Code.

http://elections.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=14632&locid=47

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

That is what the law says so take your complaints to wisconsin. Oh and am I to take your lack of comment to mean that you are ok with walker wasting taxpayer money instead of footing the bill himself as the challenger of the petition?
No comments on the right wing outside money either?? Imagine that.

LOL

Yes, I'm okay with using taxpayer money to weed out the fraudulent signatures.
It would be better if the unions paid. Maybe Soros should cough up some dough?

That wasn't the question asked but thanks for the sidestep. Besides, they weeded out the fraudlulent signatures anyway but according to WI law duplicates were the responsibility of the challenger of the petition and that was walker. However he got a judge to legislate from the bench and add to the job description of the GAB and force them to do his job for him at taxpayers expense when he should have had to pay to what the state is now paying for.

Here is the law again for those who can't seem to get it on the first read.

Challenges to a Recall Petition
Within 10 days after a recall petition is offered for filing, the officeholder can challenge its sufficiency. The challenge must be made in the form of a written, sworn complaint.
The challenge must specify any alleged insufficiency in the petition. Any challenge to the validity of signatures on a recall petition must demonstrate by affidavits or other supporting evidence a failure to comply with statutory requirements. The burden of proof is on the challenger. The information on a recall petition is presumed to be valid unless proven otherwise. El.Bd. 2.11., Wis. Adm. Code.

http://elections.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=14632&locid=47

Yes, I'm okay with using taxpayer money to weed out the fraudulent and duplicate signatures.
It would be better if the unions paid. Maybe Soros should cough up some dough?

Besides, they weeded out the fraudlulent signatures anyway

Who did? How do you know?

 

[drsmith1072]

Government workers should have to take a vow of poverty.

This is what right wingnuts really believe.

Actually this is what fitz believes.

The public sector should NEVER be superior in pay and benefit to the private sector employment. Ever. Lest it forget that they are public SERVANTS and the servant never makes more than it's master, the taxpayers... which in this case is only the upper 53% of wage earners in this nation.

Nevermind the fact that public sector workers are taxpayers too. LOL

Oh good we're gonna try that game, are we?

They're taxpayers too and are paying taxes that pay their own salary. Sorry, but I don't give a fuck about playing semantics with employee money that is taxed.

Are you actually trying to argue that public sector taxpayers are somehow less of a citizen and don't or shouldn't have the same rights and private sector workers?? Oh wait you already did that.

The public sector should NEVER be superior in pay and benefit to the private sector employment. Ever. Lest it forget that they are public SERVANTS and the servant never makes more than it's master, the taxpayers... which in this case is only the upper 53% of wage earners in this nation.

You have a few holes in your theory's hull that are scuttling the whole notion.

I can't wait to see what your warped mind dreamt up,

1. Government MAKES money. No it doesn't. It takes money from industry, economic activity and individuals that DO make money. They then shuffle it around, taking a piece of the pie as it moves from earner to government to payout for someone else. The government then takes it's cut to pay for the people and resources to administer this taking of revenue out of the economy. That money is then taxed as income and brought back into the system. It's the company town trick. We pay you wages, but since there is no other store but the one the company owns, you have to give your wages right back to the company to keep alive. If you're lucky, they're honest and don't screw you on the prices and make you a slave. It minimizes their costs. Does the government earn anything? Nope. It's entropy on economic activity.

So government builds nothing and provides no services for the money that they bring in through taxation, they only tax for purposes of paying for those who collect more taxes??

Furthermore, are you an anarchist because your "town trick" argument is exactly how any form of government works.
There are not multiple governments and even in the small limited federal government wetdreams of conservatives our founding fathers still set forth a single federal governent.

Even on a local level you still have to deal with one centralized local govenrment or are you arguing that we should have a "free market govenrment" where several forms of government exist and compete with each other for our tax dollars in an open market? How exaclty would tha work?

If that type of flawed reasoning is what you are trying to use to show the holes in my argument the what have you done to fill the hoels in yours??

2. Since government employees pay taxes, it's their money and they're just 'normal people'. This is a deliberate mischaracterization of what's going on. The gubmint employee IS working. They are doing something for their job which is to shuffle paper or provide a service that generally couldn't survive without government involvement. So they DO earn money. The problem is that their employer DOESN'T earn money.

Again, when are you going to point out holes in my argument? All you seem to be doing is presenting one hole filled argument after another that are based solely on your warped and misguided opinions as you try to define taxpayer to suit your needs for your new hole-filled argument. They still pay taxes and work for their pay makiing them just as much a citizen or "normal person" as you are. no matter what your beliefs about govenrment are nothing will change that fact.

3. Public service should not be held accountable to market repercussions OR competence.

Are you trying to say that this is a hole in my argument? But I said NOTHING of the sort. This is all that i said in reference to public sector workers.

Nevermind the fact that public sector workers are taxpayers too.

so how did you draw all of that from that one sentence?? Do you often have to make shite up and attribute it to others so you can attack them for things they never said or is this something new for you?

In business, if you suck, you go out of business. In government, if you suck, tax more to cover your incompetence. Just because you work in the public sector does not make you any more pure or critical to the function of the economy. Often it's the opposite. You couldn't make it in the private sector, and went for the job security of a plebeian public service job where it takes an act of God to fire you when you're a fuckup and not doing your job. Private school teachers prove every day that public school teachers do not deserve bloated salaries and it can be done better and more efficiently than the public sector.

Oh really??

What does a teacher do?


Teacher. The teacher is responsible for educating students in her class to set expectations. Depending on the grade level, the teacher may be responsible for a multiple subjects or he may just focus on one subject. In addition to their teaching duties, teaches may have extra roles in study hall, the cafeteria, sports, and other after school activities. We have two different sources for average public school teacher salaries. The Bureau of Labor Statistics puts the salary from $44,000 to $48,420 (depending on the grade level, kindergarten teachers getting paid less than secondary school teachers). PayScale puts the public school teacher salary in a slightly lower range: $35,460 for kindergarten teachers going up to $40,910 for secondary school teachers. Teaching positions can specialize in special education, vocational training, and athletic training.

Jobs in Private School - Private School Review

Oops looks like another hole in your spin.

Public employees and bureaucrats are not a noble class where they should not be held accountable to the repercussions of economics and policy, unlike the private sector.

again who is actually saying that?? Instead of pulling shite out of thin air why don't you try addressing what people actually say?

But they benefit from the payer of their wages is not the same person as their bosses. In the case of WEAC, this was worse because when the union went to the government for contract negotiation, they often put THEIR OWN PEOPLE on the other side of the negotiating board who, in essence did not pay for their salaries either, but the taxpayer as a whole did.

Now hold on, you want to scream "but the teachers pay taxes too!" and that is true. But they are disproportionate in scale to the benefits and wages they receive. Their neighbors who are being leeched on pay the vast majority of their increased wages. Of course you could try to say "but they benefit too as a member of the public!" and this could be true if they sent their kids to public school. But if they send them to private school for a better education, they actually receive no benefit and in fact are penalized for doing the better thing and paying a private school to educate their children. (hence why school vouchers and tax exemptions are awesome)

It is a corrupt system that has become unsustainable, and Walker grabbed it by the short and curlies, yanking it back from taking another chomp out of the taxpayers behinds.

Yeah we all get that you hate public sector workers and consider them less than a normal citizen or person but what does your warped and unsubstantiated opinion have to do with the facts of the argument?

Public sector employees are not saints, nor should they be a protected class. The fact they view themselves that way is revolting.

So not only do you put words into peoples mouths but now you are a mind reader too??

Nor should they be slaves or forced into poverty. That's a strawman, because nobody is asking them to be one either.

Even though based on your own words that should be considered to be "servants" and less than "normal people?" Thanks for the spin.

Your argument is predicated on these false assumptions or sly scams of semantics in order to justify corruption, elitism and cronyism, and at least in WI, that's finally ending.

WHat's funny is that you barely touched on my simple argument that "public sector workers are taxpayers too" and ended up adding a ton of BS that doesn't even apply to me or my arguments.
Then in your final act of desperation you dishonestly define my argument based on a work of fiction that you dreamt up and has NOTHING to do with the actual content of my post.

So thanks again for nothing.

 

[drsmith1072]

Yes, I'm okay with using taxpayer money to weed out the fraudulent signatures.
It would be better if the unions paid. Maybe Soros should cough up some dough?

That wasn't the question asked but thanks for the sidestep. Besides, they weeded out the fraudlulent signatures anyway but according to WI law duplicates were the responsibility of the challenger of the petition and that was walker. However he got a judge to legislate from the bench and add to the job description of the GAB and force them to do his job for him at taxpayers expense when he should have had to pay to what the state is now paying for.

Here is the law again for those who can't seem to get it on the first read.

Challenges to a Recall Petition
Within 10 days after a recall petition is offered for filing, the officeholder can challenge its sufficiency. The challenge must be made in the form of a written, sworn complaint.
The challenge must specify any alleged insufficiency in the petition. Any challenge to the validity of signatures on a recall petition must demonstrate by affidavits or other supporting evidence a failure to comply with statutory requirements. The burden of proof is on the challenger. The information on a recall petition is presumed to be valid unless proven otherwise. El.Bd. 2.11., Wis. Adm. Code.

http://elections.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=14632&locid=47

Yes, I'm okay with using taxpayer money to weed out the fraudulent and duplicate signatures.
It would be better if the unions paid. Maybe Soros should cough up some dough?

Besides, they weeded out the fraudlulent signatures anyway

Who did? How do you know?

Tood want a cracker??

Sorry "weeded" was supposed to be "weed" wrong tense. However, Do you actually believe parroting the same nonresponsive BS makes a valid response if it is repeated enough times??
I spelled out how your argument is flawed and yet you parrot it again as if anything has changed.

 

[drsmith1072]

Do you know what a closed union shop is?
Let us see who makes the most $$$: The President of the United States?
Let us take a look at the highest paid government worker in Wisconsin?
Would that be the Governor, the speaker of the House?
No, it would be the union employee that makes the investments that the taxpayers pay into the union workers retirement fund.
Must be nice. Where is my investment counselor that is paid 600K a year by the STATE OF WISCONSIN BY UNION CONTRACT?
This ain't rocket science here Moe.
And it gets worse my man. NINE OUT OF THE TEN highest paid public employees in Wisconsin sit on that investment board. Average salary last year 350K.

This is all being paid by the taxpayers. What we have now is that the public employees have been given a cradle to grave security blanket guaranteed job, benefits and retirement far better than what the taxpayers have on average.

Why are you folks so afraid of putting out to public bid all of these jobs and let the free market determine the value of those jobs?

Those of us that run corporations in the private sector know why. We know that these union employees are scared shitless because they know full well that there are tens of thousands of MORE qualified workers out there in better health, younger and will work harder for the same $$ and do a better job.
That is the sole purpose of unions. To protect the mediocre and less than average to the bottom employee.
Productive workers do not need a union. Our skills are so in demand we can negotiate on our own.
Something about the power of the individual, what this great country was founded on.

WOW More nonsensicial ranting from you and no answers to the simple questions that were asked. I wonder why that is? I answered your questions so why can you answer mine?

You still seem to be arguing as if public union workers are not tax payers and that is the major flaw in any argument where you try to pit the taxpayer against public workers because they are one and the same.

"You still seem to be arguing"..Stop it. That is not the OP's argument.

really?? When right wingers here are trying to pit public sector workers against private sector workers as they try to argue that public sector workers are not taxpayers when they are one and the same how is that not a part of the argument.

here is an example,

This is all being paid by the taxpayers. What we have now is that the public employees have been given a cradle to grave security blanket guaranteed job, benefits and retirement far better than what the taxpayers have on average.

Seeems to me that he is trying to argue that public sector workers and taxpayers are not one an the same.

To square this away, yes public employees pay taxes. So what?

That makes them taxpayers showing that public sector workers and taxpayers are one and the same.

here's the rub. Those workers benefit from those taxes. They essentially pay themselves.

Yay they are self employed but I thought that rightwingers loved that kind of success?

It is in the best interest of public workers for taxes to increase. The proof in that is when NJ enacted a 2% annual tax levy cap, the unions representing all 600,000 public workers in the State went bonkers.

Got any more info?? How about a link?

This is also why many individual workers that come one these forums argue for higher taxes and bigger government.

Why do you presume to know what others are thinking?

So please, don't try to come on here and imply there is a disconnect between what public workers are paid and how much in taxes they pay..

Is that what I was implying? Could you please quote what i said and ahow exactly how I am implying what you are trying to apply to me?

Oh, how many of them live in lower tax jurisdictions or even out of state? Lots.
When I was living in NJ there were three NYC police officers living on MY street and the next street up. Why? The taxes were lower in NJ than they were in the 5 boroughs back then. Plus the cost of housing was lower. They did not pay the higher NYC or other municipal property taxes.

Did I say the system was perfect?? NO. In any system there are going to be loopholes and some people are going to take advantage of them but is that a true example of the whole or just a minority that you are inflating becuase is supports your needs to do so?

Your argument holds water like a colander.

And yet my true argument about public sector workers being taxpayers has held up to crticism better than your arguments.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

That wasn't the question asked but thanks for the sidestep. Besides, they weeded out the fraudlulent signatures anyway but according to WI law duplicates were the responsibility of the challenger of the petition and that was walker. However he got a judge to legislate from the bench and add to the job description of the GAB and force them to do his job for him at taxpayers expense when he should have had to pay to what the state is now paying for.

Here is the law again for those who can't seem to get it on the first read.

Yes, I'm okay with using taxpayer money to weed out the fraudulent and duplicate signatures.
It would be better if the unions paid. Maybe Soros should cough up some dough?

Besides, they weeded out the fraudlulent signatures anyway

Who did? How do you know?

Tood want a cracker??

Sorry "weeded" was supposed to be "weed" wrong tense. However, Do you actually believe parroting the same nonresponsive BS makes a valid response if it is repeated enough times??
I spelled out how your argument is flawed and yet you parrot it again as if anything has changed.

Who took out the fraudulent signatures?
Or are they still in there?

 

[drsmith1072]

Government workers should have to take a vow of poverty.

This is what right wingnuts really believe.

Actually this is what fitz believes.

The public sector should NEVER be superior in pay and benefit to the private sector employment. Ever. Lest it forget that they are public SERVANTS and the servant never makes more than it's master, the taxpayers... which in this case is only the upper 53% of wage earners in this nation.

Nevermind the fact that public sector workers are taxpayers too. LOL

Government workers are servants and the rest of us are their masters. Nice.

I think I was pretty damn close enough.

Then he expanded upon that belief and tried to claim that public sector workers are not the same as "normal people."

this is what I said.

Nevermind the fact that public sector workers are taxpayers too. LOL

and this is the response fitz gave.

2. Since government employees pay taxes, it's their money and they're just 'normal people'. This is a deliberate mischaracterization of what's going on.

Is it just me or is he is arguing that public sector workers are not 'normal people' like the rest of us non-public sector taxpayers? LOL

 

[Big Fitz]

Actually this is what fitz believes.



Nevermind the fact that public sector workers are taxpayers too. LOL

Oh good we're gonna try that game, are we?

They're taxpayers too and are paying taxes that pay their own salary. Sorry, but I don't give a fuck about playing semantics with employee money that is taxed.

Are you actually trying to argue that public sector taxpayers are somehow less of a citizen and don't or shouldn't have the same rights and private sector workers?? Oh wait you already did that.






I can't wait to see what your warped mind dreamt up,



So government builds nothing and provides no services for the money that they bring in through taxation, they only tax for purposes of paying for those who collect more taxes??

Furthermore, are you an anarchist because your "town trick" argument is exactly how any form of government works.
There are not multiple governments and even in the small limited federal government wetdreams of conservatives our founding fathers still set forth a single federal governent.

Even on a local level you still have to deal with one centralized local govenrment or are you arguing that we should have a "free market govenrment" where several forms of government exist and compete with each other for our tax dollars in an open market? How exaclty would tha work?

If that type of flawed reasoning is what you are trying to use to show the holes in my argument the what have you done to fill the hoels in yours??



Again, when are you going to point out holes in my argument? All you seem to be doing is presenting one hole filled argument after another that are based solely on your warped and misguided opinions as you try to define taxpayer to suit your needs for your new hole-filled argument. They still pay taxes and work for their pay makiing them just as much a citizen or "normal person" as you are. no matter what your beliefs about govenrment are nothing will change that fact.




Are you trying to say that this is a hole in my argument? But I said NOTHING of the sort. This is all that i said in reference to public sector workers.



so how did you draw all of that from that one sentence?? Do you often have to make shite up and attribute it to others so you can attack them for things they never said or is this something new for you?



Oh really??



Oops looks like another hole in your spin.




again who is actually saying that?? Instead of pulling shite out of thin air why don't you try addressing what people actually say?



Yeah we all get that you hate public sector workers and consider them less than a normal citizen or person but what does your warped and unsubstantiated opinion have to do with the facts of the argument?




So not only do you put words into peoples mouths but now you are a mind reader too??

Nor should they be slaves or forced into poverty. That's a strawman, because nobody is asking them to be one either.

Even though based on your own words that should be considered to be "servants" and less than "normal people?" Thanks for the spin.

Your argument is predicated on these false assumptions or sly scams of semantics in order to justify corruption, elitism and cronyism, and at least in WI, that's finally ending.

WHat's funny is that you barely touched on my simple argument that "public sector workers are taxpayers too" and ended up adding a ton of BS that doesn't even apply to me or my arguments.
Then in your final act of desperation you dishonestly define my argument based on a work of fiction that you dreamt up and has NOTHING to do with the actual content of my post.

So thanks again for nothing.

Okay, I'm done dealing with a complete fucking cretin like you. Ignore. You can debate the definition of 'is' with yourself.

 

[Article 15]

Oh good we're gonna try that game, are we?

They're taxpayers too and are paying taxes that pay their own salary. Sorry, but I don't give a fuck about playing semantics with employee money that is taxed.

Are you actually trying to argue that public sector taxpayers are somehow less of a citizen and don't or shouldn't have the same rights and private sector workers?? Oh wait you already did that.






I can't wait to see what your warped mind dreamt up,



So government builds nothing and provides no services for the money that they bring in through taxation, they only tax for purposes of paying for those who collect more taxes??

Furthermore, are you an anarchist because your "town trick" argument is exactly how any form of government works.
There are not multiple governments and even in the small limited federal government wetdreams of conservatives our founding fathers still set forth a single federal governent.

Even on a local level you still have to deal with one centralized local govenrment or are you arguing that we should have a "free market govenrment" where several forms of government exist and compete with each other for our tax dollars in an open market? How exaclty would tha work?

If that type of flawed reasoning is what you are trying to use to show the holes in my argument the what have you done to fill the hoels in yours??



Again, when are you going to point out holes in my argument? All you seem to be doing is presenting one hole filled argument after another that are based solely on your warped and misguided opinions as you try to define taxpayer to suit your needs for your new hole-filled argument. They still pay taxes and work for their pay makiing them just as much a citizen or "normal person" as you are. no matter what your beliefs about govenrment are nothing will change that fact.




Are you trying to say that this is a hole in my argument? But I said NOTHING of the sort. This is all that i said in reference to public sector workers.



so how did you draw all of that from that one sentence?? Do you often have to make shite up and attribute it to others so you can attack them for things they never said or is this something new for you?



Oh really??



Oops looks like another hole in your spin.




again who is actually saying that?? Instead of pulling shite out of thin air why don't you try addressing what people actually say?



Yeah we all get that you hate public sector workers and consider them less than a normal citizen or person but what does your warped and unsubstantiated opinion have to do with the facts of the argument?




So not only do you put words into peoples mouths but now you are a mind reader too??



Even though based on your own words that should be considered to be "servants" and less than "normal people?" Thanks for the spin.

Your argument is predicated on these false assumptions or sly scams of semantics in order to justify corruption, elitism and cronyism, and at least in WI, that's finally ending.

WHat's funny is that you barely touched on my simple argument that "public sector workers are taxpayers too" and ended up adding a ton of BS that doesn't even apply to me or my arguments.
Then in your final act of desperation you dishonestly define my argument based on a work of fiction that you dreamt up and has NOTHING to do with the actual content of my post.

So thanks again for nothing.

Okay, I'm done dealing with a complete fucking cretin like you. Ignore. You can debate the definition of 'is' with yourself.

Yes, suh, massa suh.