338,000

[Captain Caveman]

Yes mental illness is a very difficult problem that neither party is interested in addressing.

Mental illness causes little crime, and they're actually more often to be victims of crime -

People with severe mental illness as the perpetrators and victims of violence: time for a new public health approach

People with mental illness are much more often the victims of violence rather than the perpetrators. However, people with some types of mental disorder are more likely to be violent than others in the general population, a fact that is uncomfortable for many in the mental health sector. While...

www.thelancet.com

 

[candycorn]

so your real agenda comes out,,

its not dead or abused people you care about but how they are killed,,,

It comes out? It's been there since the first post where I mentioned school shootings.

its already been posted that in this country between 500K and 3 millions violent crimes are stopped by guns every yr, and since you are a long time troll if this forum you damn well know thats true,, so save you claimed ignorance for someone else,,

Yeah... you think there are 3M shootouts a year--every year?

Nobody believes that. Not even you.

Here is the part where you now try to "reason" that a gun doesn't have to be used to prevent a crime--thus begging the question how do we know a crime was about to be committed let alone how do we know it was going to be a violent crime.

This is 100,000 people:

You think this many people were somehow saved from a violent crime last year (and every year before that) by a gun that was not used:

 

[progressive hunter]

It comes out? It's been there since the first post where I mentioned school shootings.


Yeah... you think there are 3M shootouts a year--every year?

Nobody believes that. Not even you.

Here is the part where you now try to "reason" that a gun doesn't have to be used to prevent a crime--thus begging the question how do we know a crime was about to be committed let alone how do we know it was going to be a violent crime.

This is 100,000 people:
View attachment 758041

You think this many people were somehow saved from a violent crime last year (and every year before that) by a gun that was not used:
View attachment 758042

where did I say there were any shootouts let alone 3 million,,,

if youre going to be a troll as least show some reading skills and common sense,,

 

[candycorn]

where did I say there were any shootouts let alone 3 million,,,

Okay lets play our game.

What is a defensive gun use?

Here is the part where you swear that a gun can be used without using it....

Also please tell us how you know a crime that was prevented was going to be a "violent crime".

if youre going to be a troll as least show some reading skills and common sense,,

I will continue to exhibit reading skills as well as common sense. You should start however.

 

[progressive hunter]

Okay lets play our game.

What is a defensive gun use?

Here is the part where you swear that a gun can be used without using it....

Also please tell us how you know a crime that was prevented was going to be a "violent crime".


I will continue to exhibit reading skills as well as common sense. You should start however.

yeah well I'm rubber and your glue,,,

youre a fucking idiot,,

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Thank you for your valuable contribution to this discussion as always.

This thread is further proof that Republicans are dishonest cowards who refuse to address the issue of gun crime and violence.

They attempt to obfuscate and deflect by trying to ignore guns used in suicides and lying about Democrats somehow being ‘responsible.’

 

[progressive hunter]

This thread is further proof that Republicans are dishonest cowards who refuse to address the issue of gun crime and violence.

They attempt to obfuscate and deflect by trying to ignore guns used in suicides and lying about Democrats somehow being ‘responsible.’

when you figure out a way to get guns from criminals you let us know then we can talk,,
until then your premise is a lie,,

 

[candycorn]

yeah well I'm rubber and your glue,,,

youre a fucking idiot,,

And of course...when left with no other option because you can't possibly legitimize your 3M defense gun use canard...all you can do is hurl personal insults.

 

[progressive hunter]

And of course...when left with no other option because you can't possibly legitimize your 3M defense gun use canard...all you can do is hurl personal insults.

I tried several times to explain it in detail and everytime you came back with something I never said,,

so whats left other than mocking you for the nazi fascist piece of shit you really are??

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

And you lie. All firearm dealers must do a mandated Federal Background check.

Yet another lie from the dishonest right.

Individuals who engage in private intrastate transactions of firearms where those individuals are residents of the same state are not required to complete a 4473 and be subject to a NICS background check.

UBCs would address that deficiency placing no restrictions on the acquisition all types of firearms.

 

[progressive hunter]

Yet another lie from the dishonest right.

Individuals who engage in private intrastate transactions of firearms where those individuals are residents of the same state are not required to complete a 4473 and be subject to a NICS background check.

UBCs would address that deficiency placing no restrictions on the acquisition all types of firearms.

your premise is a lie,,

he specifically said firearms dealer not private sales..

 

[candycorn]

I tried several times to explain it in detail and everytime you came back with something I never said,,

so whats left other than mocking you for the nazi fascist piece of shit you really are??

Actually explaining how you think there are 3M gun uses per year without there being 3M shootouts. Because that would actually be someone using a gun.

Also explaining how a crime being prevented can be called a "violent crime" since the crime never took place. You used the words "violent crime"...not me.

The reality of the situation is that you have been reduced to making idiotic statements that no sane person would ever say--such as arming everyone so there would be no gun violence. The 3M canard is just the latest series of pooh you're flinging in some attempt to salvage some relevance to your long debunked nonsense.

 

[progressive hunter]

Actually explaining how you think there are 3M gun uses per year without there being 3M shootouts. Because that would actually be someone using a gun.

Also explaining how a crime being prevented can be called a "violent crime" since the crime never took place. You used the words "violent crime"...not me.

The reality of the situation is that you have been reduced to making idiotic statements that no sane person would ever say--such as arming everyone so there would be no gun violence. The 3M canard is just the latest series of pooh you're flinging in some attempt to salvage some relevance to your long debunked nonsense.

FFS give it up already,,

 

[2aguy]

Sure there is...

In Paris France, some kid gets picked on by class mates, he goes home, cries about it and gets over it eventually.
In Paris Texas, some kid gets picked on by class mates, he goes home, gets his old man's gun and goes back and wastes his class mates.

You're still pretending that having a zillion guns in the nation somehow prevents crime. It doesn't.

Then muslim terrorists, with fully automatic military rifles murder 135 people.....in Paris, where fully automatic military rifles are illegal, in France, where fully automatic military rifles are illegal, on the continent, where fully automatic military rifles are illegal......


Yes......they do prevent crime...

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

 

[2aguy]

Actually explaining how you think there are 3M gun uses per year without there being 3M shootouts. Because that would actually be someone using a gun.

Also explaining how a crime being prevented can be called a "violent crime" since the crime never took place. You used the words "violent crime"...not me.

The reality of the situation is that you have been reduced to making idiotic statements that no sane person would ever say--such as arming everyone so there would be no gun violence. The 3M canard is just the latest series of pooh you're flinging in some attempt to salvage some relevance to your long debunked nonsense.

Also explaining how a crime being prevented can be called a "violent crime" since the crime never took place. You used the words "violent crime"...not me.
It is right there.........and since you are a leftist clod, you can't see it past your blind hate of a tool.......

This is what having a gun, in the hand of the victim, does...you doofus......

since the crime never took place.

Without the gun, the victim actually becomes a victim...of rape, robbery, beating, murder, stabbings.........you really are a fool.

 

[2aguy]

Is it going to check to see if they have a mentally ill person living in their house with them who will have access to the guns? Is it going to check to see if he posted a manifesto to where he plans to die in the next few days?

And you move the goal post....

You didn't address the first point......allowing people to do background checks for gun sales on a free phone app......since that app would destroy any need for gun registration....since gun registration is the only reason you want universal background checks for gun sales......you don't want to talk about it....so you move on to an entirely different issue....

You dumb ass....

 

[2aguy]

It was on video... No lie at all.

It is a lie....since you didn't address the fact that all gun dealers are required by law to actually do a background check on all gun sales.......

Private individuals can sell their private property anywhere they want.......

You leave out that detail because as a leftist, the truth, facts and reality show nothing you believe is true or accurate.

 

[2aguy]

As I said before, nothing of what you say can account for the dramatic increase in the number of violent crimes in such a short span of time.

The spike in crime began during the riots of 2020 and continued to ramp up during the pandemic. Coincidence? I think not.

Both of these phenomena divided the entire country along two battle lines at the same time (vaxxers/govt. stooges-vs.-antivaxxers/free thinkers and cop haters-vs.-law and order adherents).
As you well know, the overall mood of the country at that time was one of anger, resentment, cynicism, and even hate. It was inevitable that crime and conflict would increase.


Once again you miss the point. How often this happens is beside the point. The point is, it is illegal to buy, sell or trade firearms this way.
But rather than advocate for enforcement of the law, you’d rather deprive law abiding gun owners of their constitutional right to own firearms.


Again, culture.


I don’t know why it is, I just know that access to firearms doesn’t make one homicidal.

One doesn’t purchase or acquire a firearm and once it’s in their hand decide they want to kill someone. It just doesn’t work like that.

It wasn't the pandemic.......2020 was an election year and the economy was booming...the democrats decided to send out blm and antifa, their brown shirts, to destroy the cities they control so they could blame Trump......the democrat party mayors in those cities told the police to stand down as their brown shirts rioted, looted, burned and killed in primarily black neighborhoods...........they also ramped up their attacks on the police, making it impossible for them to do their jobs, which created massive retirements and made large numbers of police quit....then, on top of that, the get out of jail free policies the democrats used to release the most violent, and dangerous criminals kept the criminals who actually do 95% of the gun murder free and out on the streets to shoot each other in democrat party controlled cities.....

 

[2aguy]

Just a side question... are you just pretending this is a good idea or do you really think having 50 armed people in close proximity to other armed is going to stop someone from being killed by gunfire? Because...it hasn't worked in the history of warfare where firearms were involved.

Moron......almost all of the mass public shootings happen in gun free zones....the killers choose them for their attacks so they can kill without someone shooting back at them...you doofus.

New York Mass Public Shooter Explicitly targeted: “areas where CCW are outlawed or prohibited may be good areas of attack” “areas with strict gun laws are also great places of attack,” Another Socialist/Environmentalist​

-----
The El Paso environmentalist/socialist/racist shooter also discussed doing an attack in a place where others wouldn’t be able to stop the attack:

“Remember: it is not cowardly to pick low hanging fruit. AKA Don’t attack heavily guarded areas to fulfill your super soldier COD fantasy. Attack low security targets. Even though you might out gun a security guard or police man, they likely beat you in armor, training and numbers. Do not throw away your life on an unnecessarily dangerous target. If a target seems too hot, live to fight another day.”

One moment, please...


10/26/19

Mass Shootings in Gun-Free Zones - The American Spectator | USA News and PoliticsThe American Spectator | USA News and Politics

According to ABC News, El Paso law enforcement officials advise that, moments before his killing rampage, the shooter cased the Walmart “looking for Mexicans.” While that may be so, it is nevertheless true that, consistent with his “manifesto,” his recon was also calculated to make sure that he would be attacking in a low-security area. In that regard, the Walmart store had no armed security guard, no police presence, and was located in a shopping mall that was a self-proclaimed “gun-free zone.”
Similarly, in the Dayton, Ohio, mass shooting on Sunday, which immediately followed the El Paso murders, the victims were attacked as they exited a nightspot that was a gun-free zone.
And, in the Garlic Festival shootings in Gilroy, California last week, the victims were trapped inside a fenced area after going through metal detectors to make sure that they were disarmed. The shooter avoided the metal detectors by cutting through the fence and then attacking a victim pool that the Gilroy authorities had rendered incapable of defending themselves.
So it is that these most recent massacres share the one common element of almost all mass casualty shootings: gun-free zones.In addition to the El Paso shooter’s “manifesto,” there is abundant anecdotal evidence that mass casualty shooters prefer gun-free zones. For example, in 2016, Dearborn Heights, Michigan, ISIS supporter Khalil Abu Rayyan had an online discussion with an undercover FBI agent in which he discussed his plan for a “martyrdom operation” by attacking a Detroit church. He told the agent that this would be an easy target because “people are not allowed to carry guns in church.” Fortunately, Abu Rayyan was arrested before he could achieve martyrdom.
Similarly, in 2015, Elliot Rodger murdered six people in a Santa Barbara, California, gun-free zone. In his 141-page “manifesto,” he explained that in planning his attack he had decided against launching it in other locations where someone with a gun might be present to cut short his killing spree.
In the 2012 Aurora, Colorado, theater massacre, the killer’s diary showed that he had decided against attacking an airport because of its “substantial security.” And, out of the seven movie theaters within 20 minutes of the shooter’s home, he chose the only one that had posted signs declaring it to be a gun-free zone.
Given this record, anyone concerned with eliminating — or at least substantially reducing — mass public shootings must ask whether or not gun-free zones pose a danger to the public by attracting killers who prefer an unarmed victim pool and should give serious consideration to the following propositions:



3/3-/18

Orlando, Pulse Night club shooter wanted to attack Disney land

Pulse shooter's initial target was Disney site, prosecutors say


Prosecutors say the Orlando nightclub shooter intended to attack Disney World’s shopping and entertainment complex by hiding a gun in a stroller but became spooked by police and chose the gay club as his target.
3/5/18
https://www.nationalreview.com/blog/corner/profile-of-a-school-shooter/

The second thing: The shooter reveals that he thought seriously about whether his target would be a “gun free zone.” I mention this not to endorse any particular policy, but to make it clear that it is by no means rare for those who would do harm to first scope out their destinations and to make sure that they won’t encounter much resistance. The shooter openly explains that he chose the local elementary school, rather than the school he was really angry with (his own), because it lacked an armed guard. He also admits to having researched how long it took cops to respond in the area (15 minutes), and how long it would be before SWAT was on site (45 minutes). This echoes comments made by the shooter at Isla Vista, who considered carrying out his attack on Halloween, but decided against it because there’d be “too many cops walking around during an event like Halloween, and cops are the only ones who can hinder my plans.”

The actual story linked above...

“I HAVE TO BEAT **** **** . .” he wrote nine days before the Sept. 28, 2016, shooting in a misspelled reference to the Sandy Hook killer,**** ****. “Atleast 40.”

Two days later, he debated whether he should attack his middle school, from which he’d been expelled, or his elementary school, just up the road.

He decided on Townville Elementary because it was closer and had no armed security.


“Itll be like shooting fish in a barrel,” he wrote his friends, whose identities remain unclear, along with whether the FBI has tracked any of them down. The agency declined to comment, citing Jesse’s open case.

In the chat, he said he had researched police response times for the area and found that it would take them 15 minutes to get there, maybe 45 for SWAT. He said he would throw pipe bombs into each classroom before he got in a shootout with police and killed himself with his shotgun. He said he had been planning a massacre for two years.

=========


The Colorado theater shooter evidence...

Did Colorado shooter single out Cinemark theater because it banned guns?

Yet, neither explanation is right. Instead, out of all the movie theaters within 20 minutes of his apartment showing the new Batman movie that night, it was the only one where guns were banned. In Colorado, individuals with permits can carry concealed handgun in most malls, stores, movie theaters, and restaurants. But private businesses can determine whether permit holders can carry guns on their private property.
Most movie theaters allow permit holders carrying guns. But the Cinemark movie theater was the only one with a sign posted at the theater’s entrance.
A simple web search and some telephone calls reveal how easily one can find out how Cinemark compared to other movie theaters. According to mapquest.com and movies.com, there were seven movie theaters showing "The Dark Knight Rises" on July 20th within 20 minutes of the killer’s apartment at 1690 Paris St, Aurora, Colorado. At 4 miles and an 8-minute car ride, the Cinemark’s Century Theater wasn't the closest. Another theater was only 1.2 miles (3 minutes) away.
There was also a theater just slightly further away, 10 minutes. It is the "home of Colorado's largest auditorium," according to their movie hotline greeting message. The potentially huge audience ought to have been attractive to someone trying to kill as many people as possible. Four other theaters were 18 minutes, two at 19 minutes, and 20 minutes away. But all of those theaters allowed permitted concealed handguns.
So why would a mass shooter pick a place that bans guns? The answer should be obvious, though it apparently is not clear to the media – disarming law-abiding citizens leaves them as sitting ducks


FBI: Dearborn Heights ISIS supporter planned to attack Detroit church

In conversation's between Abu-Rayyan and the undercover agent, Abu-Rayyan described his desire to commit a martyrdom operation.

The complaint filed in federal court doesn’t specify which Detroit church he was allegedly planning to attack, only that it was close and could seat 6,000 members.

The complaint quotes Abu-Rayyan saying:

“It's easy, and a lot of people go there. Plus people are not allowed to carry guns in church. Plus it would make the news. Everybody would've heard. Honestly I regret not doing it. If I can't do jihad in the Middle East, I would do my jihad over here."

He had also told the undercover agent that a church would be an easy target because people are not allowed to carry guns there and that it would make the news.

----------------
Minnesota…...

Minnesota teen made bombs, stockpiled guns in prep for school massacre: police

The unhinged teen told cops, after being busted Tuesday, that he planned to shoot his sister, mom and dad with a .22-caliber rifle before he went to a rural field and set a fire to distract cops.
The 11th-grader then said he planned to go to Waseca Junior and Senior High School where he would toss Molotov cocktails and explode pressure-cooker bombs to try and kill “as many students as he could” in the cafeteria during lunchtime.
About 1,000 students, in 7th through 12th grade, attend the school.
LaDue, according to the notebook of his plan, would kill the school resource officer before continuing to kill other students. He was prepared to be gunned down by a SWAT Team, police said.


************************


Vince Vaughn is right about guns (and was brave to be so honest) | Fox News

Last June, Elliot Rodger, who killed six people in Santa Barbara, Calif., explained his own choice. In his 141-page “Manifesto,” Rodger turned down alternate targets because he worried that someone with a gun would cut short his killing spree.

That same month, Justin Bourque shot to death three people in Canada. His Facebook page made fun of gun bans, with pictures of defenseless victims explaining to killers that they weren’t allowed to have guns.

The diary of the Aurora, Colorado, “Batman” movie theater killer, James Holmes, was finally released this past week. It was clear that he was considering both attacking an airport and a movie theater, but he turned down the airport option because he was concerned about their “substantial security.”

Of course, there are numerous other examples such as the Columbine killersopposing the concealed carry law that was then working its way through the state legislature. The bill would have allowed people to carry permitted concealed handguns on school property. The killers timed their attack for the very day that final passage of the law was planned for in the legislature.

If you go to the link for the Colorado theater shooter they have a photo of his journal where he has notes about airports…..he lists one of the items…."Substantial Security"

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/james-holmes-notebook-dragged.pdf
**************

Sandy hook, did not have police resource officer

Building a safer Sandy Hook | News21: Gun Wars

The high school and middle school, which already had armed resource officers, doubled down on security and restricted all visitors that didn’t have prior permission to enter.
Lupica: Morbid find suggests murder-obsessed gunman Adam Lanza plotted Newtown, Conn.'s Sandy Hook massacre for years

They don’t believe this was just a spreadsheet. They believe it was a score sheet,” he continued. “This was the work of a video gamer, and that it was his intent to put his own name at the very top of that list. They believe that he picked an elementary school because he felt it was a point of least resistance, where he could rack up the greatest number of kills. That’s what (the Connecticut police) believe.”

The man paused and said, “They believe that (Lanza) believed that it was the way to pick up the easiest points. It’s why he didn’t want to be killed by law enforcement. In the code of a gamer, even a deranged gamer like this little bastard, if somebody else kills you, they get your points. They believe that’s why he killed himself.
-----

It really was like he was lost in one of his own sick games. That’s what we heard. That he learned something from his game that you learn in (police) school, about how if you’re moving from room to room — the way he was in that school — you have to reload before you get to the next room. Maybe he has a 30-round magazine clip, and he’s only used half of it. But he’s willing to dump 15 rounds and have a new clip before he arrives in the next room.”

*****************

MILLER: Adam Lanza shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown final report

The shooter only stopped when the police arrived. He had plenty of ammunition and was prepared to continue changing magazines and reloading.
The rifle found near Lanza had a magazine only half-empty. Police found two empty 30-round magazines duct-taped together in a tactical configuration at the scene.
Gun-control advocates often cite “high-capacity” magazines as a cause of gun violence, but the sophisticated way Lanza prepared his weapons showed how easy it is to change a magazine of any size and reload, even in an active shooter situation.
----------

 

[2aguy]

Just a side question... are you just pretending this is a good idea or do you really think having 50 armed people in close proximity to other armed is going to stop someone from being killed by gunfire? Because...it hasn't worked in the history of warfare where firearms were involved.

Yes.....when people are allowed to carry guns, mass public shooters stay away from those places...

One moment, please...
========

​

​

Massive errors in FBI’s Active Shooting Reports regarding cases where civilians stop attacks: Instead of 4.4%, the correct number is at least 34.4%. In 2021, it is at least 49.1%. Excluding gun-free zones, it averaged over 50%.​

-------

Evidence compiled by the Crime Prevention Research Center shows that the sources the media relied on undercounted the number of instances in which armed citizens have thwarted such attacks by an order of more than ten, saving untold numbers of lives. Of course, law-abiding citizens stopping these attacks are not rare. What is rare is national news coverage of those incidents. Although those many news stories about the Greenwood shooting also suggested that the defensive use of guns might endanger others, there is no evidence that these acts have harmed innocent victims.

One moment, please...