50% of Americans do not pay income tax?

[flacaltenn]

EdJax:

There's really no place to go with this since you insist on ignoring the net tax policy.. You're lost somewhere between Line 34 and Line 48 of the IRS form 1040.

To be even more clear:
The IRS says” Anyone meeting requirement X will receive an endowment (tax credit) of $3000
Citizen A meets requirement X, owes no taxes and will pay no taxes
Citizen B meets requirement X, owes $1000 in taxes and will pay $1000 in taxes
Citizen C meets requirement X, owes $2000 in taxes and will pay $2000 in taxes
Citizen D meets requirement X, owes $4000 in taxes and will pay $4000 in taxes


Citizen A receives $3000
Citizen B receives $2000
Citizen C receives $1000
Citizen D pays $1000
Only citizen A paid no taxes

There is so much wrong here -- it's not worth debating. Mostly because "tax credits" for the lower 50% are usually taken on PERSONAL EXEMPTIONS and STANDARD DEDUCTIONS.. These are not TAX CREDITS.. They come off of Adjusted Income. So they are NOT one to one tax "endowments".. But also because Citizen A RECEIVES NOTHING. If it WERE a credit -- it cannot exceed tax liabilities.

From the 1040 instructions.. "Subtract line 54 from line 46. If line 54 is MORE than line 46 --- enter ZERO". Like I said -- for individuals, most all credits cannot exceed liabilities.

But just piss on all that... If you're gonna believe this jazz you're imagining -- all I need to know is whether you're consistent.

Daily Kos: Bernie Sanders: "Guess Which 10 Companies Aren't Paying Their Share"

The following is a news release from the office of Sen. Bernie Sanders (Vermont-I)

While hard working Americans fill out their income tax returns this tax season,General Electric and other giant profitable corporations are avoiding U.S. taxes altogether. With Congress returning to Capitol Hill on Monday to debate steep spending cuts, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) said the wealthiest Americans and most profitable corporations must do their share to help bring down our record-breaking deficit.

Sanders renewed his call for shared sacrifice after it was reported that General Electric and other major corporations paid no U.S. taxes after posting huge profits.

So -- are the Daily Kos, all US news outlets, Bernie Sanders and major Dem leaders all FOS Ed?

Because according to your math Ed -- All those corporations paid ALL of their taxes.. They just got enough credits to balance out their net tax liability to Zero.

If you Don't tell me the press and the howling lefties are all wrong about these corporations --- then we're pretty much helpless to help you figure what you believe..

 

[Ernie S.]

It has become clear to me that 2+2=5 (Georege Orwell "1984"). If you haven't read it you should.<:^}

I read it, probably, before you were born. You seem to have mastered doublethink.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

If they pay $1,000 and receive and "endowment" of $2,000, are you claiming they pay taxes?

Are endowments only things that people other than you receive from government?

I've never received an endowment from the government. I have gotten refunds from the IRS, but never more than I paid in.

You've never claimed a single tax credit or received any government benefit? So you've never had children, never paid for college tuition, and aren't drawing social security or medicare?

How often do you use federally funded highways? How much federal funding did the schools you attended or your children attended receive per student during you or their attendance? Do you have property and possessions? What protects those? The local PD and fire department? How much federal dollars did those entities receive? Who keeps foreign invaders off your land?


Do you plan to die early so that you wind up in the black with Uncle Sam, or would you prefer to live till 100, drawing social security and medicare the entire time, and soaking Uncle Sam for more than you contributed?


I'm trying to figure out whether you receive a greater dollar value in government benefit than you invest in taxes. What's funny is the right wingers seem to PREFER a government that delivers LESS than people put into it.

 

[edjax1952]

It has become clear to me that 2+2=5 (Georege Orwell "1984"). If you haven't read it you should.<:^}

I read it, probably, before you were born. You seem to have mastered doublethink.

If you read it and understood it at age 16 then you are at least 74 yrs old, and if so I certainly respect your age and wisdom.<:^}

In order to properly recognize doublethink, you must first know what it is. Thus, the question. Do 50% of Americans actually not pay income tax? I think we have about exhausted most all comments and there were certainly many viewpoints. I have enjoyed the discussion and look forward to stirring the pot on another discussion soon. Maybe I will ask if something about government subsidies.

 

[flacaltenn]

But wait up EdJax -- I appreciate that you're satisfied, but I'm still on edge here about whether you apply the "logic" and tax interpretation to those corporations that didn't pay any taxes.. I can't sleep tonight unless you tell us whether you're consistent.

 

[Big Fitz]

Yes because the endowment was not a tax credit. If it had been a tax credit, the balance would have been zero. He paid his $1000. If not he woud have recieved $3000. The governmnet "gave" him a $3000 endowmnet he only recieved $2000 he paid $1000 or he would have recieved $3000

Semantics!
"He" paid -$2.000 to the government. That money had to be taken from people who actually EARNED it.

The IRS says” Anyone meeting requirement X will receive an endowment (tax credit) or $3000
Citizen A owes no taxes and will pay no taxes
Citizen B owes $1000 in taxes and will pay $1000 in taxes
Citizen C owes $2000 in taxes and will pay $2000 in taxes

Citizen A receives $3000
Citizen B receives $2000
Citizen C receives $1000
Only citizen A paid no taxes
If you do not like the tax codes the way they are then let's change them. That fact remains that only citizen A did not pay taxes.

Sorry dude. It's wealth redistribution based on socialism and envy.

 

[edjax1952]

But wait up EdJax -- I appreciate that you're satisfied, but I'm still on edge here about whether you apply the "logic" and tax interpretation to those corporations that didn't pay any taxes.. I can't sleep tonight unless you tell us whether you're consistent.

If those corporations fall into the 50% of Americans (seeing that a corporation is considered an entity of its own) who didn't pay taxes they either did not make enough money to pay any taxes or they recieved enough government endowments and priviledges to cover what they did owe. One of the side issues here is not how much someone pays or does not pay. It is that the tax codes allows too many endowments and privildeges and therefore the government does not draw in from taxes what it spends and therefore the country must go further into debt.

If people persist, I will comment on this thread from now to next year. There is not a solid answer to the questions because of the insane details of the tax code. They have been added onto and edited for many years everytime a politician can find a way to curb America's destiny to his desires and has enough influence to create another endowment.

I knew this when I started this thread. It is by talking about these issues that the general public learns more about where they stand in the overall picture of things and which ideas he has are valid and on target and which are not. Some of the ideas are no more than desires and, in that case, may the one with the most votes win.

God bless America and Please protect us from ourselves. <:^}

 

[Ernie S.]

Are endowments only things that people other than you receive from government?

I've never received an endowment from the government. I have gotten refunds from the IRS, but never more than I paid in.

You've never claimed a single tax credit or received any government benefit? So you've never had children, never paid for college tuition, and aren't drawing social security or medicare?

How often do you use federally funded highways? How much federal funding did the schools you attended or your children attended receive per student during you or their attendance? Do you have property and possessions? What protects those? The local PD and fire department? How much federal dollars did those entities receive? Who keeps foreign invaders off your land?


Do you plan to die early so that you wind up in the black with Uncle Sam, or would you prefer to live till 100, drawing social security and medicare the entire time, and soaking Uncle Sam for more than you contributed?


I'm trying to figure out whether you receive a greater dollar value in government benefit than you invest in taxes. What's funny is the right wingers seem to PREFER a government that delivers LESS than people put into it.

Yes I had children and took deductions for them. I use highways and enjoy the protection of police, firefighters and the military. I also pay property tax on the home I paid cash for. I have paid far more in taxes than the value of services I have received.
I have never received more services than I paid for with the exception of public school education for my children.. My oldest is 10 years out of high school and a Army veteran who served in Iraq. I continue to pay property tax to support education without personal benefit. I have more than repaid my debt for my kids' education.
I did it the old fashioned way. I paid my own way through life and in a few years, I'll start to collect Social Security which I have paid into for 46 years.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

My favorite tax is the effectively regressive tax by the depreciation of property.

A rich man pays ~30% on his highest earned dollar - so depreciation from rental property nets him a 30% savings on the depreciated value.

A middle class man pays 15% on his highest earned dollar - so depreciation from rental property nets him a 15% savings on the depreciated value.

When both men sell their property - they both will have to pay a 25% depreciation recapture tax on the depreciated amount.

Thus both pay the same penalty upon sale of the property - but the richer man gets a greater benefit from its depreciation.

Therefore REGRESSIVE TAX

 

[Ernie S.]

It has become clear to me that 2+2=5 (Georege Orwell "1984"). If you haven't read it you should.<:^}

I read it, probably, before you were born. You seem to have mastered doublethink.

If you read it and understood it at age 16 then you are at least 74 yrs old, and if so I certainly respect your age and wisdom.<:^}

In order to properly recognize doublethink, you must first know what it is. Thus, the question. Do 50% of Americans actually not pay income tax? I think we have about exhausted most all comments and there were certainly many viewpoints. I have enjoyed the discussion and look forward to stirring the pot on another discussion soon. Maybe I will ask if something about government subsidies.

No I read it and understood it at 12 and I'm 62.
Apparently you are much older than I guessed from your lack of intellectual honesty.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I've never received an endowment from the government. I have gotten refunds from the IRS, but never more than I paid in.

You've never claimed a single tax credit or received any government benefit? So you've never had children, never paid for college tuition, and aren't drawing social security or medicare?

How often do you use federally funded highways? How much federal funding did the schools you attended or your children attended receive per student during you or their attendance? Do you have property and possessions? What protects those? The local PD and fire department? How much federal dollars did those entities receive? Who keeps foreign invaders off your land?


Do you plan to die early so that you wind up in the black with Uncle Sam, or would you prefer to live till 100, drawing social security and medicare the entire time, and soaking Uncle Sam for more than you contributed?


I'm trying to figure out whether you receive a greater dollar value in government benefit than you invest in taxes. What's funny is the right wingers seem to PREFER a government that delivers LESS than people put into it.

Yes I had children and took deductions for them. I use highways and enjoy the protection of police, firefighters and the military. I also pay property tax on the home I paid cash for. I have paid far more in taxes than the value of services I have received.

Can we see your itemized list?

I have never received more services than I paid for with the exception of public school education for my children..

I guess we just won't count that.

My oldest is 10 years out of high school and a Army veteran who served in Iraq. I continue to pay property tax to support education without personal benefit.

Because you don't benefit from the presence of an educated workforce.

I have more than repaid my debt for my kids' education.
I did it the old fashioned way. I paid my own way through life and in a few years, I'll start to collect Social Security which I have paid into for 46 years.

Do you plan on soaking SS for more than you contributed by living long? what about Medicare?

 

[Ernie S.]

You've never claimed a single tax credit or received any government benefit? So you've never had children, never paid for college tuition, and aren't drawing social security or medicare?

How often do you use federally funded highways? How much federal funding did the schools you attended or your children attended receive per student during you or their attendance? Do you have property and possessions? What protects those? The local PD and fire department? How much federal dollars did those entities receive? Who keeps foreign invaders off your land?


Do you plan to die early so that you wind up in the black with Uncle Sam, or would you prefer to live till 100, drawing social security and medicare the entire time, and soaking Uncle Sam for more than you contributed?


I'm trying to figure out whether you receive a greater dollar value in government benefit than you invest in taxes. What's funny is the right wingers seem to PREFER a government that delivers LESS than people put into it.

Can we see your itemized list?


I guess we just won't count that.
Because you don't benefit from the presence of an educated workforce.

I have more than repaid my debt for my kids' education.
I did it the old fashioned way. I paid my own way through life and in a few years, I'll start to collect Social Security which I have paid into for 46 years.

Do you plan on soaking SS for more than you contributed by living long? what about Medicare?

Yes I do. We'll wait and see if I live long enough. I paid in to it and if I had, in stead put that money in gold, stocks or even a 5% savings account, I would be extremely comfortable by now and not a burden on anyone should I live to 90 or so.
I've been paying into medicaid for years too. Why shouldn't I take advantage of it?

 

[edjax1952]

I read it, probably, before you were born. You seem to have mastered doublethink.

If you read it and understood it at age 16 then you are at least 74 yrs old, and if so I certainly respect your age and wisdom.<:^}

In order to properly recognize doublethink, you must first know what it is. Thus, the question. Do 50% of Americans actually not pay income tax? I think we have about exhausted most all comments and there were certainly many viewpoints. I have enjoyed the discussion and look forward to stirring the pot on another discussion soon. Maybe I will ask if something about government subsidies.

No I read it and understood it at 12 and I'm 62.
Apparently you are much older than I guessed from your lack of intellectual honesty.

After researching "intelectual honesty" I find that it eludes to character which in one definiton is; A person who is appealingly odd or curious: oddity, original. Informal: card, oddball. I guess that may be the one that fits.

 

[Big Fitz]

anyone else noticing the amount of non-income tax exceptions and caveats being thrown in the mix here as justification for the poor profiting from paying income taxes?

Just sayin'.

 

[edjax1952]

Can we see your itemized list?


I guess we just won't count that.
Because you don't benefit from the presence of an educated workforce.


Do you plan on soaking SS for more than you contributed by living long? what about Medicare?

Yes I do. We'll wait and see if I live long enough. I paid in to it and if I had, in stead put that money in gold, stocks or even a 5% savings account, I would be extremely comfortable by now and not a burden on anyone should I live to 90 or so.
I've been paying into medicaid for years too. Why shouldn't I take advantage of it?

Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More

A history of the evolution of Social Security and how it got to where it is now.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Yes I do. We'll wait and see if I live long enough. I paid in to it and if I had, in stead put that money in gold, stocks or even a 5% savings account, I would be extremely comfortable by now and not a burden on anyone should I live to 90 or so.

If only we could invest in hindsight.

Social security, BTW, is closer in function to a life annuity - not a low interest savings account. To live indefinitely off a savings account requires you have enough principal at retirement to pay interest after taxes and inflation equal to your needed income. That's a huge amount of principal. A 5% savings account returns about 1% in real after tax and after inflation returns. That means you need 100 times your annual take home pay to live exclusively on the interest.

A life annuity like SS, on the other hand, is a bet that you will live long. The longer you live, the more you draw. The insurer doesn't invest your funds and then pay you just out of the interest - he pays you out of the incoming stream from other annuity payments as well - some from folks who will never live long enough to see the benefits of their investment. Any insurer selling life annuities works on the same as SS and in fact may have a substantial portion of their assets in treasuries just like SS.

I've been paying into medicaid for years too. Why shouldn't I take advantage of it?

So if you give the government some money, its OK to take it back and then some more on top of it?

 

[flacaltenn]

EdJax:

If those corporations fall into the 50% of Americans (seeing that a corporation is considered an entity of its own) who didn't pay taxes they either did not make enough money to pay any taxes or they recieved enough government endowments and priviledges to cover what they did owe.

But I thought your whole argument here was that the taxes were ACTUALLY paid by these entities who recieve enough credits to zero out their tax liabilities. I'm telling you that this is the case for all those corporations that leftist leaders are whining about "not paying any taxes"... Are they AND the media all wrong? Did GE actually PAY all their applicable taxes?

To be consistent with your analysis (despite the confusion between exemptions and credits and deductions) you'd have to say that those corporations actually PAID their taxes in full -- yet sent nothing to the treasury...

But of course, rational people can't defend that position...

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

EdJax:

If those corporations fall into the 50% of Americans (seeing that a corporation is considered an entity of its own) who didn't pay taxes they either did not make enough money to pay any taxes or they recieved enough government endowments and priviledges to cover what they did owe.

But I thought your whole argument here was that the taxes were ACTUALLY paid by these entities who recieve enough credits to zero out their tax liabilities. I'm telling you that this is the case for all those corporations that leftist leaders are whining about "not paying any taxes"... Are they AND the media all wrong? Did GE actually PAY all their applicable taxes?

To be consistent with your analysis (despite the confusion between exemptions and credits and deductions) you'd have to say that ALL those corporations actually PAID their taxes in full...

But of course, rational people can't defend that position...

Some of them got back more than they paid in.

 

[flacaltenn]

EdJax:

If those corporations fall into the 50% of Americans (seeing that a corporation is considered an entity of its own) who didn't pay taxes they either did not make enough money to pay any taxes or they recieved enough government endowments and priviledges to cover what they did owe.

But I thought your whole argument here was that the taxes were ACTUALLY paid by these entities who recieve enough credits to zero out their tax liabilities. I'm telling you that this is the case for all those corporations that leftist leaders are whining about "not paying any taxes"... Are they AND the media all wrong? Did GE actually PAY all their applicable taxes?

To be consistent with your analysis (despite the confusion between exemptions and credits and deductions) you'd have to say that ALL those corporations actually PAID their taxes in full...

But of course, rational people can't defend that position...

Some of them got back more than they paid in.

No -- try again.. Total amounts of credits cannot exceed the yearly tax liability. In THIS case of corporate credits (as opposed to the terms of credits that "poor" individuals use) they are more "bankable".. Meaning that SOME excess tax credits can be carried over into future years. Some individual credits like capital losses can be carried over for individuals, but that doesn't apply to the OP population in question..

But you didn't address the question....

DID GE ACTUALLY PAY ITS TAXES (using Ed's theory) -- and Bernie Sanders and the outraged Dems and the media all get it wrong?

 

[edjax1952]

EdJax:



But I thought your whole argument here was that the taxes were ACTUALLY paid by these entities who recieve enough credits to zero out their tax liabilities. I'm telling you that this is the case for all those corporations that leftist leaders are whining about "not paying any taxes"... Are they AND the media all wrong? Did GE actually PAY all their applicable taxes?

To be consistent with your analysis (despite the confusion between exemptions and credits and deductions) you'd have to say that ALL those corporations actually PAID their taxes in full...

But of course, rational people can't defend that position...

Some of them got back more than they paid in.

No -- try again.. Total amounts of credits cannot exceed the yearly tax liability. In THIS case of corporate credits (as opposed to the terms of credits that "poor" individuals use) they are more "bankable".. Meaning that SOME excess tax credits can be carried over into future years. Some individual credits like capital losses can be carried over for individuals, but that doesn't apply to the OP population in question..

But you didn't address the question....

DID GE ACTUALLY PAY ITS TAXES (using Ed's theory) -- and Bernie Sanders and the outraged Dems and the media all get it wrong?

My point all along is that the government tells it citizens (and corporate entities) that there are rules for you to comply with tax laws.
As the year goes along you must pay an income tax on each paycheck (or quarterly for corporations) to the government to pay for the cost of running the government.

Then they set up a set of rules to compensate these citizens for social or financial extenuating circumstances. i.e.: cost of raising children, cost of running a business, income below a certain poverty standard, etc.
The citizen complies with these rules and files income tax at the end of the year (or quarter) or face financial penalties or criminal charges.
Then, after having complied with all these mandates, the government officials make a statement that these citizens and corporate entities did not pay any income tax.

Talk about semantics and irrational thought. This is the epitome of semantics and irrational thought.