5'2", 110lbs. Can you handle him?

[Sweet Willy]

Kitten, I would like some cites for your head trauma and internal injury claims.

 

[KittenKoder]

Did the kid pull a weapon on the cops? No. Could one cop have kept a gun on the kid while the other cop cautiously approached him? Yes. Could the cop approaching have grabbed the kid and shoved him to the ground? Yes. Could the cop then have cuffed him? Yes. Would the outcome have been different? Don't know. Were the cops back with the cousin - who would have told them that the kid was LD - in contact with the two cops chasing the kid? Likely. Wouldn't they have relayed that info to the cops? Yes.

No one is looking for 100% anything and I'm not 'demonizing' the cops here. Simply stating that, based on my personal experience of restraining a kid this age and size by myself, that I believe two grown, trained cops could have handled it differently and that the outcome would have likely been a live kid.

Still a high risk of the situation turning out worse ... still in dream land. That use to work, the "hold a gun on them" method, but it doesn't work most times now, thanks to people whining about these incidents and whenever a cop is forced to fire, they always get into more trouble, no matter what the situation is (man with katana got shot ... all cops on leave .... local department sued .... yeah) ... the technique they used was the lowest risk, period.

"Still a high risk of the sitation turning out worse" Worse? The kid is dead.

So .... because people whine about cops doing their job, the cops stop doing their job? Please. Holding a gun on someone who had not pulled a weapon while another cop cautiously approaches them does work. All the time? No. Worth the risk? Yes. A better choice in this situation? Yes. Guaranteed positive outcome? No guarantees in life, we all know that. Likely better outcome (that would be an alive kid)? Yes.

... think more ... if the kid was armed, yes, more people would have been harmed and possibly dead, that's not worse?

 

[KittenKoder]

Okay, so now it's the low chance of one kid getting hurt is somehow worse than the chance of more people getting hurt ... yeah, that's really smart.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Only 47 die per year of the thousands tasered ... totaling 330 in 8 years ... oh yeah, that's really "deadly force".

It is to those 330 people.

Hundreds die each year from head trauma ... a bump on the head from a fist or more, thousands from internal injuries caused by wrestling ... versus 47 each year from tasers ... yeah, really "deadly force" there. Chances are still better. Not to mention all the risk to the cops if the kid had been armed. Oh, and as for "being told by ..." garbage, they were being pulled over, how many criminals do you know are honest all the time?

When they taser someone - see the video SW put up - the person falls to the ground. Can bumping the head be a result of this? Yes. He's pointed out the possibilities of injuries resulting from being tasered in previous posts. And no one is saying that the cops needed to beat the kid in the head; grabbing and restraining. Two cops, one small kid.

The kid driving was pulled over for an expired license plate, not for robbing a store. And yes, the kid would likely have told the cops that his cousin was LD, especially if they hadn't done anything wrong.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Kitten, you see that woman in handcuufs fall to the floor and strike her head?

You see that? You want to continue woth your "bump on the head" routine?

*yawn* Lower chance of it happening. Not everyone "goes down" when tased. Most are already on the ground and the choice is taser or beat the shit out of them.

You can support these claims I suppose? With more than the shit that got on them when you pulled them out of your ass?

Show us the lower chance of striking your head when falling from a taser strike that the chance of striking your head from falling.....well from falling from anything else. What exactly is it about a taser fall that makes it safer? I am really interested in hearing this.

Show us where most subjects are already on the ground when tasered. I don't believe you for a second. I think you pulled that from your ass.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Still a high risk of the situation turning out worse ... still in dream land. That use to work, the "hold a gun on them" method, but it doesn't work most times now, thanks to people whining about these incidents and whenever a cop is forced to fire, they always get into more trouble, no matter what the situation is (man with katana got shot ... all cops on leave .... local department sued .... yeah) ... the technique they used was the lowest risk, period.

"Still a high risk of the sitation turning out worse" Worse? The kid is dead.

So .... because people whine about cops doing their job, the cops stop doing their job? Please. Holding a gun on someone who had not pulled a weapon while another cop cautiously approaches them does work. All the time? No. Worth the risk? Yes. A better choice in this situation? Yes. Guaranteed positive outcome? No guarantees in life, we all know that. Likely better outcome (that would be an alive kid)? Yes.

... think more ... if the kid was armed, yes, more people would have been harmed and possibly dead, that's not worse?

In this specific situation, the kid did not pull a weapon on the cops. Stick with the story. The cops could have handled it differently.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Kitten, over many pages now I have asked you to provide support for your claims about risk of injuries by falls, head trauma, tackles, etc.

Can you support your claims or not? It's like not we just don't notice that you keep parrotting but you don't provide any evidence that what you say is true.

Do youn have any support for your claims on the incidents of head bumps, injuries, trauma?

 

[Ravi]

According to one article I read he was resisting a pat-down when they tasered him. What should they have done? Used the least amount of force to subdue him. Two cops, one kid...they should have grabbed his arms and cuffed him. A no brainer.

This is the police force that was recently in the news for tasering a stuffed animal. lol!

A bit trigger happy and it sounds as if they need some serious training.

Can you link the article?

Warren Police said the Detroit Kettering High School sophomore bailed out of the Dodge Stratus he was riding in during a traffic stop on Eight Mile near Schoenherr, and led officers on a half-block chase. He was stunned one time with a Taser for resisting when officers tried to pat him down. Shortly after, he became unresponsive and died.

Dead teen's family, friends march against Taser use | detnews.com | The Detroit News

 

[Zoom-boing]

According to one article I read he was resisting a pat-down when they tasered him. What should they have done? Used the least amount of force to subdue him. Two cops, one kid...they should have grabbed his arms and cuffed him. A no brainer.

This is the police force that was recently in the news for tasering a stuffed animal. lol!

A bit trigger happy and it sounds as if they need some serious training.

Can you link the article?

Warren Police said the Detroit Kettering High School sophomore bailed out of the Dodge Stratus he was riding in during a traffic stop on Eight Mile near Schoenherr, and led officers on a half-block chase. He was stunned one time with a Taser for resisting when officers tried to pat him down. Shortly after, he became unresponsive and died.

Dead teen's family, friends march against Taser use | detnews.com | The Detroit News

Thanks.

Just in reading the part you quoted, the two grown and trained cops were in the process of patting the kid down . . . . and couldn't restrain him any other way other than using a taser? Bullfuckingshit.

What do those advocating that the cops couldn't have handled it differently say now? They weren't 50 feet from him, they had him and they could have restrained him. Two grown, trained cops. One 110 lb. short kid.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Instead of listening to Kittens made up statistics, let's look the actual numbers of poeple killed while resisting arrest. Then let's look at the number of people killed by taser each year, while resisting arrest. You be the judge.

Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Justifiable Homicides

 

[jgbkab]

Okay, here is the only possible way it could have gone better (beside the kid NOT running from them in the first fucking place):

The officers would have had to have ESP and known that ...

1. The kid was not armed.

2. The kid was somehow DD.

3. The kid had to have a condition making the taser deadly.

4. The kid was actually innocent and just scared instead of a junky high on something and guilty as hell.

Yeah ... what dream world is this again?

Boy you just won't listen about special needs people, will you?

Two grown, trained cops could have apprehended him without the use of a taser. They were within what, 50 feet of him with guns on him? Did the kid pull a weapon? You mean one cop couldn't keep a gun on the kid while the other cop grabbed him? If they believed he had a weapon they could have shot him in the leg then cuffed him. Hole int he leg, but alive.

Were the cops who were back with the cousin in contact with the cops who were chasing the kid? The cousin would have said that the kid was learning disabled . . . . why wouldn't the cops have relayed this information to the two cops?

Really, and how were the cops suppose to know all this? They use to do the "shoot in the leg" ... but *gasp* people die from that to, duh. They got sued too many times.

Do you ever think about more than the kid? Whenever they chase a perp there is more at stake than just the perps life. Most of the time there is a weapon on the perp, and tackling would put their lives in danger, period, then they would have had to shoot him dead most likely anyway. Chasing a perp is about chance and risk, they are not mind readers, they are not omniscient, they don't know what could and will happen, so they are trained to use techniques with the least danger to everyone, even the perps, involved. If you can find a better technique then have at it, otherwise you are just demonizing for no reason. Chances are just that, chances, there is always a risk, and they used the method with the least risk of causing things to go even worse, like oh ... the cops getting killed to, maybe a few other innocent people from stray bullets if the kid just happened to be a crack head with a gun ... you are only seeing the outcome and not considering anything about the possibilities, something that police have to consider with every stop, every questioning. There are people who try to kill cops just because they don't like them, their lives are in danger all the fucking time, and many of them die trying to "be nice" to perps, and this was being nice.

The fact is the police need to be retrained on when and how to use a taser. Pulling out the taser as the first instinct is wrong. Im sure the chase gave them time to assess the situation and the kid. The video I posted almost looks like a training video because it was textbook. Departments have a habit of putting rookies out on the street or allowing bad police to continue on the force. The New Year's police killing in Oakland was because a police pulled out his gun when he thought he had his taser. There are plenty of good policemen but even the best make bad judgment calls. You can't be allowed to use deadly force everyday and not have the proper training to know how and when to use it. No, this wasn't deadly force but this was bad judgment. You can use all the if's, and's, or but's in it but these two policemen should have been able to take a suspect that wasn't presenting a weapon down without the use of a taser. And at any point that they felt like their lives were is danger, they could have used their guns. Just watch cops. They always put the best cops on TV. If cops want to be looked at as peace officers instead of the enforcers, they should act accordingly.

 

[jgbkab]

Instead of listening to Kittens made up statistics, let's look the actual numbers of poeple killed while resisting arrest. Then let's look at the number of people killed by taser each year, while resisting arrest. You be the judge.

Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Justifiable Homicides

Don't let Tank or WJ see those stats.

 

[GHook93]

Police in Detroit had trouble with 16 year old boy, 5 feet, 2 inches tall, 110 pounds. So they tasered him and it killed him.

The tasers are getting a bit out of hand. If you can't handle a scrawny kid, find a job you are qualified for.

Just my 2 cents.

'No excuse' for learning-disabled teen's Taser death, mother says - CNN.com

I agree. I see some cops on the Streets and I think to myself that I could probably take that cop easily. It amazes me how my tiny cops are out there. Also how many fat cops are out their also. Many times a cop is going to have to run down a suspect on foot, with some being so fat they couldn't run down an old woman on a walker.

Not to sound sexist, but why are there so many female cops. Yes some women can handle themselves well against men, but honestly most can't and that includes many cops.

If a cop can't take down with efficiency (and without tazering) a normal sized adult suspect 5'8 160 lb, then they have no business being on the force!

 

[roomy]

Do you think maybe by the time these two fat unfit policemen managed to trap this 110lb sixteen yearold sprint champion all they could do before they collapsed in a heap was manage to wrestle the taser from it's holster and shoot the boy with it, maybe it was an accident and they meant to pull out the gun?

 

[Cecilie1200]

If it was your special needs child that was killed, would you feel the same?

Special needs child? He was "learning disabled". What does that even MEAN? Dyslexics are learning disabled, as well, and they still have the simple brain power needed to figure out that you don't jump out of the car and haul ass down the street when the cops pull you over. What, exactly, was his "disability"? It sounds like something thrown into the article to garner sympathy.

It worked......tell an asperger's kid as many times as you want not to run when pulled over by the cops, and if he gets scared, he may still run. Same with ADD. There's a short circuit in the frontal lobe of the brain and they often react without thinking it through.

My asperger's son is 24 years old but has the social skills of a young teenager. I'm not at all certain that he wouldn't run if I got pulled over by the cops while he was in the car.

Now, my son is almost 6 feet and over 200 pounds, but I would still be upset if they killed him with a taser. You aren't allowed to shoot a fleeing suspect unless he/she puts someone's life in IMMEDIATE danger, why in the heck are they allowed to taser such suspects?

First, I'm not sure I'd qualify Asperger's as a "learning disability". Second, my best friend, Blair, is 24 and has Asperger's. I was with him on the way home from a St. Patrick's Day party when he got pulled over at a routine traffic stop. He handled it just like I would've and didn't get a ticket. There was a decided lack of jumping out of the car and shagging ass down the street. My other close friend, Len, has ADD. Weird and socially backward they may both be. Stupid and unable to function they aren't.

They are allowed to taser someone rather than shoot them because tasers are lethal accidentally. Guns are lethal deliberately, and they had some funny notion that they wanted to subdue suspects as safely as possible. I guess we could always go to the British "Stop, or I'll yell stop again!" method, since everyone has their panties in a wad about the fact that nothing's perfect.

I'm curious. General anesthesia, as I brought up in another post, is fatal about as often percentage-wise as tasering is. That's why when you have surgery, they have to bring it up, even though it leaves you going under the knife all freaked out and tense. Do you advocate not using general anesthesia because it carries the possible risk of death? Or taking medicine off the market that can have dangerous side effects in a small number of the population? Or is it just public safety officers who have to have no risk factor to what they do?

 

[Ravi]

The hospitals make you sign for GA...and so does the pharmacy for drugs that have serious side effects.

Next.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Special needs child? He was "learning disabled". What does that even MEAN? Dyslexics are learning disabled, as well, and they still have the simple brain power needed to figure out that you don't jump out of the car and haul ass down the street when the cops pull you over. What, exactly, was his "disability"? It sounds like something thrown into the article to garner sympathy.

It worked......tell an asperger's kid as many times as you want not to run when pulled over by the cops, and if he gets scared, he may still run. Same with ADD. There's a short circuit in the frontal lobe of the brain and they often react without thinking it through.

My asperger's son is 24 years old but has the social skills of a young teenager. I'm not at all certain that he wouldn't run if I got pulled over by the cops while he was in the car.

Now, my son is almost 6 feet and over 200 pounds, but I would still be upset if they killed him with a taser. You aren't allowed to shoot a fleeing suspect unless he/she puts someone's life in IMMEDIATE danger, why in the heck are they allowed to taser such suspects?

First, I'm not sure I'd qualify Asperger's as a "learning disability". Second, my best friend, Blair, is 24 and has Asperger's. I was with him on the way home from a St. Patrick's Day party when he got pulled over at a routine traffic stop. He handled it just like I would've and didn't get a ticket. There was a decided lack of jumping out of the car and shagging ass down the street. My other close friend, Len, has ADD. Weird and socially backward they may both be. Stupid and unable to function they aren't.

They are allowed to taser someone rather than shoot them because tasers are lethal accidentally. Guns are lethal deliberately, and they had some funny notion that they wanted to subdue suspects as safely as possible. I guess we could always go to the British "Stop, or I'll yell stop again!" method, since everyone has their panties in a wad about the fact that nothing's perfect.

I'm curious. General anesthesia, as I brought up in another post, is fatal about as often percentage-wise as tasering is. That's why when you have surgery, they have to bring it up, even though it leaves you going under the knife all freaked out and tense. Do you advocate not using general anesthesia because it carries the possible risk of death? Or taking medicine off the market that can have dangerous side effects in a small number of the population? Or is it just public safety officers who have to have no risk factor to what they do?

We have already covered the fact that the taser stats are not reliable. There are studies that have uncovered, wouldn't you know, that the manufacturers data and test didn't account for people that fall from a ledge, drop like a rock, fall on a sword or get run over on the street they collapse in. The makers of these weapons, in their wisdom, don't let people just drop when they hit them with a taser. No, they catch them before they hit the ground. Seems that falling to the ground head first is pretty fucking fatal sometimes. And when a cop tasers someone, and they smash their noggin on the ground, that gets written up to a head trauma death, not a taser death.

Stats aren't the holy grail of this issue. They are, I might add, purposely, manipulated to make these things look safer than they are.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Police chased Morales naked through the building and then he stepped onto a ledge. After a standoff, Pigott, a 21-year veteran of the police department, ordered a sergeant to fire a Taser at Morales.

Morales fell 10 feet (three meters) to the sidewalk and died of severe head trauma.

N.Y. policeman commits suicide after Taser death | U.S. | Reuters

Note that the man's death is attributed to head trauma. Do you supposed the taser had anything to do with it?

 

[Againsheila]

I repeat. How do you "wrap up arms" on someone who's running away from you, Einstein?

Catch up with kid. Grab him. Wrap up arms. Put on ground. One cop restrains. One cops cuffs.

This is fun.

That would be the problem right there. To you, it's just a "fun" exercise in imagination while you surf the Net. To them, it was a matter of potential life and death, theirs and everyone on the street, that had to be decided in a split second. That's why your untrained armchair-quarterbacking and second-guessing sounds so completely asinine.

His/her armchair quaterbacking is about as good as yours. Police are not allowed to shoot at a fleeing suspect unless that suspect puts other people in danger. Why on earth would they be allowed to taser them, unless they are putting someone else's life at risk?

 

[Againsheila]

Police chased Morales naked through the building and then he stepped onto a ledge. After a standoff, Pigott, a 21-year veteran of the police department, ordered a sergeant to fire a Taser at Morales.

Morales fell 10 feet (three meters) to the sidewalk and died of severe head trauma.

N.Y. policeman commits suicide after Taser death | U.S. | Reuters

Note that the man's death is attributed to head trauma. Do you supposed the taser had anything to do with it?

Yes, and apparently the officer agreed...or he wouldn't have committed suicide over it.