A bet with anti-gunners

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

What shit? Relaxation of gun laws? Yup...it’s been happening. So has an increase in school shootings.

Wrong.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I would support bringing back an assault weapon ban.

Koper, Jan. 14: So, using that as a very tentative guide, that’s high enough to suggest that eliminating or greatly reducing crimes with these magazines could produce a small reduction in shootings, likely something less than 5 percent. Now we should note that effects of this magnitude could be hard to ever measure in any very definitive way, but they nonetheless could have nontrivial, notable benefits for society. Consider, for example, at our current level of our gun violence, achieving a 1 percent reduction in fatal and non-fatal criminal shootings would prevent approximately 650 shootings annually … And, of course having these sorts of guns, and particularly magazines, less accessible to offenders could make it more difficult for them to commit the sorts of mass shootings that we’ve seen in recent years.”
Did the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban Work? - FactCheck.org

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results:

Ban on assault weapons didn’t reduce violence

War of sources. Stalemate.

You didn't provide a source, I did.

Umm yes...I did.

My apologies, yes you did. And here are some of the highlights:

Koper, Jan. 14: What we found in these studies was that the ban had mixed effects in reducing crimes with the banned weaponry due to various exemptions that were written into the law. And as a result, the ban did not appear to effect gun violence during the time it was in effect. But there is some evidence to suggest that it may have modestly reduced shootings had it been in effect for a longer period.

Koper, 2004: Although the ban has been successful in reducing crimes with AWs [Assault Weapons], any benefits from this reduction are likely to have been outweighed by steady or rising use of non-banned semiautomatics with LCMs [large-capacity magazines], which are used in crime much more frequently than AWs. Therefore, we cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence. And, indeed, there has been no discernible reduction in the lethality and injuriousness of gun violence, based on indicators like the percentage of gun crimes resulting in death or the share of gunfire incidents resulting in injury, as we might have expected had the ban reduced crimes with both AWs and LCMs.

So what he is saying is that yes, shootings and murders decreased with those particular weapons, but didn't have an overall affect on gun crimes.

 

[bgrouse]

The thousands that do use firearms for self-defense.

Do they all use AK-47’s?

Nope. Is there a point to your question?

Yup. It is an example of reasonable legislation that doesn’t tramp,e on the rights of thousands who use guns for self defense.

Here is a counter offer for you...let’s say we give the pro gunners a total relaxation of gun laws....and if there is one mass murder....etc

Big negro-infested cities have enjoyed next to total gun bans, so what are you doing now that they are still crime-infested?

I am going to do nothing since it is racist infested propaganda. Go take it elsewhere.

You'll never be able to discuss this rationally until you accept the truth.

 

[Coyote]

What shit? Relaxation of gun laws? Yup...it’s been happening. So has an increase in school shootings.

Wrong.

Rapid rise in mass school shootings in the United States, study shows: Researchers call for action to address worrying increase in the number of mass school shootings in past two decades
Despite national push, more states relaxing gun laws

 

[KGB]

Risk what thousands?

The thousands that do use firearms for self-defense.

Do they all use AK-47’s?

Nope. Is there a point to your question?

Yup. It is an example of reasonable legislation that doesn’t tramp,e on the rights of thousands who use guns for self defense.

Here is a counter offer for you...let’s say we give the pro gunners a total relaxation of gun laws....and if there is one mass murder....etc

We never made the claim that we could stop mass murders. We accept that in a country of 315 million people, there are bound to be crazies who can get their hands on firearms, pipe bombs, rental trucks and so on.

Our suggestion is that to help reduce or stop these crimes, we need more guns; more teachers trained and armed, more armed security. Those measures do have positive effects.

We also need to ensure the law abiding have the tools necessary to defend themselves as well. Libs have this false notion they can legislate perfection into society or even create a perfect society. We conservatives see this as nothing more than childish nonsense, but it is the dichotomy. That said, we also accept that evil exists in the world, something else libs refuse to see. That is why we have the right to defend ourselves. I concur with all your above & add we need to get rid of all gun-free zones unless they are on private property and have full Constitutional carry across the land. Likewise, we need to ensure enforcement of all laws is rigorously enforced & that criminals do not fall through the cracks.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The thousands that do use firearms for self-defense.

Do they all use AK-47’s?

Nope. Is there a point to your question?

Yup. It is an example of reasonable legislation that doesn’t tramp,e on the rights of thousands who use guns for self defense.

Here is a counter offer for you...let’s say we give the pro gunners a total relaxation of gun laws....and if there is one mass murder....etc

We never made the claim that we could stop mass murders. We accept that in a country of 315 million people, there are bound to be crazies who can get their hands on firearms, pipe bombs, rental trucks and so on.

Our suggestion is that to help reduce or stop these crimes, we need more guns; more teachers trained and armed, more armed security. Those measures do have positive effects.

We also need to ensure the law abiding have the tools necessary to defend themselves as well. Libs have this false notion they can legislate perfection into society or even create a perfect society. We conservatives see this as nothing more than childish nonsense, but it is the dichotomy. That said, we also accept that evil exists in the world, something else libs refuse to see. That is why we have the right to defend ourselves. I concur with all your above & add we need to get rid of all gun-free zones unless they are on private property and have full Constitutional carry across the land. Likewise, we need to ensure enforcement of all laws is rigorously enforced & that criminals do not fall through the cracks.

Liberals believe that when any negative situation arises, government can provide the solution. They don't understand there are just some things government can't control.......like the climate for instance.

 

[KGB]

Do they all use AK-47’s?

Nope. Is there a point to your question?

Yup. It is an example of reasonable legislation that doesn’t tramp,e on the rights of thousands who use guns for self defense.

Here is a counter offer for you...let’s say we give the pro gunners a total relaxation of gun laws....and if there is one mass murder....etc

We never made the claim that we could stop mass murders. We accept that in a country of 315 million people, there are bound to be crazies who can get their hands on firearms, pipe bombs, rental trucks and so on.

Our suggestion is that to help reduce or stop these crimes, we need more guns; more teachers trained and armed, more armed security. Those measures do have positive effects.

We also need to ensure the law abiding have the tools necessary to defend themselves as well. Libs have this false notion they can legislate perfection into society or even create a perfect society. We conservatives see this as nothing more than childish nonsense, but it is the dichotomy. That said, we also accept that evil exists in the world, something else libs refuse to see. That is why we have the right to defend ourselves. I concur with all your above & add we need to get rid of all gun-free zones unless they are on private property and have full Constitutional carry across the land. Likewise, we need to ensure enforcement of all laws is rigorously enforced & that criminals do not fall through the cracks.

Liberals believe that when any negative situation arises, government can provide the solution. They don't understand there are just some things government can't control.......like the climate for instance.

Wholeheartedly agree. I think this notion of the perfect society goes back to FDR with the New Deal. LBJ called for a "Great Society". Of course it failed, but why let facts get in the way..

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What shit? Relaxation of gun laws? Yup...it’s been happening. So has an increase in school shootings.

Wrong.

Rapid rise in mass school shootings in the United States, study shows: Researchers call for action to address worrying increase in the number of mass school shootings in past two decades
Despite national push, more states relaxing gun laws

It has nothing to do with gun laws. What "relaxation" law took place that caused one school shooting?

These are copycat crimes.

 

[Coyote]

The thousands that do use firearms for self-defense.

Do they all use AK-47’s?

Nope. Is there a point to your question?

Yup. It is an example of reasonable legislation that doesn’t tramp,e on the rights of thousands who use guns for self defense.

Here is a counter offer for you...let’s say we give the pro gunners a total relaxation of gun laws....and if there is one mass murder....etc

We never made the claim that we could stop mass murders. We accept that in a country of 315 million people, there are bound to be crazies who can get their hands on firearms, pipe bombs, rental trucks and so on.

Our suggestion is that to help reduce or stop these crimes, we need more guns; more teachers trained and armed, more armed security. Those measures do have positive effects.

We also need to ensure the law abiding have the tools necessary to defend themselves as well. Libs have this false notion they can legislate perfection into society or even create a perfect society. We conservatives see this as nothing more than childish nonsense, but it is the dichotomy. That said, we also accept that evil exists in the world, something else libs refuse to see. That is why we have the right to defend ourselves. I concur with all your above & add we need to get rid of all gun-free zones unless they are on private property and have full Constitutional carry across the land. Likewise, we need to ensure enforcement of all laws is rigorously enforced & that criminals do not fall through the cracks.

We have plenty of tools that are more than adequate to defend ourselves in a variety of situations. Full conceal carry (sorry, I am not going to call it Constitutional since the Constitution makes no mention of that as a right) means any nutter can carry a gun anywhere as requirements of some states require little more than an ID while others are far more strict.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

So who decides who is sane? How would we go about that?

And that is a legitimate question.

Thank you very much. That's especially true now that bits and pieces are coming out how the Obama administration used our federal agencies to try and stop a political opponent. And remember DumBama banned senior citizens from firearm access if they were having trouble paying their bills.

Conspiracy theories.

And remember...you guys want to give nuts guns (as accurate as your claim about sr citizens).

Under the rule, Social Security beneficiaries with psychiatric disabilities who are assigned a money manager for their disability benefits would be reported to the FBI's background check database as people ineligible to purchase firearms.

Why Obama's gun policy for mentally ill is flawed

Did you miss the part about psychiatric disabilities?

No, I didn't. And psychiatric disabilities means not being able to pay your bills because you're just too old. Now you tell me, when was the last mass murder that took place because of a crazy senior citizen?

 

[Coyote]

And that is a legitimate question.

Thank you very much. That's especially true now that bits and pieces are coming out how the Obama administration used our federal agencies to try and stop a political opponent. And remember DumBama banned senior citizens from firearm access if they were having trouble paying their bills.

Conspiracy theories.

And remember...you guys want to give nuts guns (as accurate as your claim about sr citizens).

Under the rule, Social Security beneficiaries with psychiatric disabilities who are assigned a money manager for their disability benefits would be reported to the FBI's background check database as people ineligible to purchase firearms.

Why Obama's gun policy for mentally ill is flawed

Did you miss the part about psychiatric disabilities?

No, I didn't. And psychiatric disabilities means not being able to pay your bills because you're just too old. Now you tell me, when was the last mass murder that took place because of a crazy senior citizen?

If someone is incompetent to the point where they can no longer manage their affairs, should they be allowed to have a gun? Seriously? Psychiatric disabilies means more than just that. My brother is psychiatrically disabled, does not manage his own money and is not a senior citizen. How does that fit into the equation?

 

[Coyote]

What shit? Relaxation of gun laws? Yup...it’s been happening. So has an increase in school shootings.

Wrong.

Rapid rise in mass school shootings in the United States, study shows: Researchers call for action to address worrying increase in the number of mass school shootings in past two decades
Despite national push, more states relaxing gun laws

It has nothing to do with gun laws. What "relaxation" law took place that caused one school shooting?

These are copycat crimes.

Laws have been relaxed over the past decades. How do you know it has nothing to do with gun laws? You claim that looser gun laws cause a decrease in violent crime after all.

 

[bgrouse]

What shit? Relaxation of gun laws? Yup...it’s been happening. So has an increase in school shootings.

Wrong.

Rapid rise in mass school shootings in the United States

But at the same time there was a rapid fall in federal building truck bombing fatalities by people with the last name McVeigh. I blame looser gun laws.

 

[bgrouse]

What shit? Relaxation of gun laws? Yup...it’s been happening. So has an increase in school shootings.

Wrong.

Rapid rise in mass school shootings in the United States, study shows: Researchers call for action to address worrying increase in the number of mass school shootings in past two decades
Despite national push, more states relaxing gun laws

It has nothing to do with gun laws. What "relaxation" law took place that caused one school shooting?

These are copycat crimes.

Laws have been relaxed over the past decades. How do you know it has nothing to do with gun laws? You claim that looser gun laws cause a decrease in violent crime after all.

You need to understand that "violent crime" and "mass school shootings" are two very different things. Until you overcome that obstacle, you won't get anywhere.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What shit? Relaxation of gun laws? Yup...it’s been happening. So has an increase in school shootings.

Wrong.

Rapid rise in mass school shootings in the United States, study shows: Researchers call for action to address worrying increase in the number of mass school shootings in past two decades
Despite national push, more states relaxing gun laws

It has nothing to do with gun laws. What "relaxation" law took place that caused one school shooting?

These are copycat crimes.

Laws have been relaxed over the past decades. How do you know it has nothing to do with gun laws? You claim that looser gun laws cause a decrease in violent crime after all.

I want to know what looser laws you are talking about. The decrease in gun and violent crime is proportional with gun laws that reversed to protect the victim instead of the attacker; proportional with more and more states adopting CCW programs. Other than that, I'm unaware of any other looser gun laws.

 

[bgrouse]

What shit? Relaxation of gun laws? Yup...it’s been happening. So has an increase in school shootings.

Wrong.

Rapid rise in mass school shootings in the United States, study shows: Researchers call for action to address worrying increase in the number of mass school shootings in past two decades
Despite national push, more states relaxing gun laws

It has nothing to do with gun laws. What "relaxation" law took place that caused one school shooting?

These are copycat crimes.

Laws have been relaxed over the past decades. How do you know it has nothing to do with gun laws? You claim that looser gun laws cause a decrease in violent crime after all.

I want to know what looser laws you are talking about. The decrease in gun and violent crime is proportional with gun laws that reversed to protect the victim instead of the attacker; proportional

...and with some sort of comprehensible causal relationship. But enough about that! Let's talk about how black people commit murder because they're poor. It works like this:

1. Be poor.
2. Commit murder.
3. Serve 20 years in prison.
4. ???
5. Profit and no longer be poor.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Thank you very much. That's especially true now that bits and pieces are coming out how the Obama administration used our federal agencies to try and stop a political opponent. And remember DumBama banned senior citizens from firearm access if they were having trouble paying their bills.

Conspiracy theories.

And remember...you guys want to give nuts guns (as accurate as your claim about sr citizens).

Under the rule, Social Security beneficiaries with psychiatric disabilities who are assigned a money manager for their disability benefits would be reported to the FBI's background check database as people ineligible to purchase firearms.

Why Obama's gun policy for mentally ill is flawed

Did you miss the part about psychiatric disabilities?

No, I didn't. And psychiatric disabilities means not being able to pay your bills because you're just too old. Now you tell me, when was the last mass murder that took place because of a crazy senior citizen?

If someone is incompetent to the point where they can no longer manage their affairs, should they be allowed to have a gun? Seriously? Psychiatric disabilies means more than just that. My brother is psychiatrically disabled, does not manage his own money and is not a senior citizen. How does that fit into the equation?

Because the order (not law) was targeting people on social security. So again, what old SS citizen ever caused a major problem with a gun?

All the mentally unstable people who caused problems with a gun were younger people. Obama didn't write an order for that. He wrote an order to strip the rights away from older people as one tiny step towards total gun confiscation. Trump reversed that order.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Wrong.

Rapid rise in mass school shootings in the United States, study shows: Researchers call for action to address worrying increase in the number of mass school shootings in past two decades
Despite national push, more states relaxing gun laws

It has nothing to do with gun laws. What "relaxation" law took place that caused one school shooting?

These are copycat crimes.

Laws have been relaxed over the past decades. How do you know it has nothing to do with gun laws? You claim that looser gun laws cause a decrease in violent crime after all.

I want to know what looser laws you are talking about. The decrease in gun and violent crime is proportional with gun laws that reversed to protect the victim instead of the attacker; proportional

...and with some sort of comprehensible causal relationship. But enough about that! Let's talk about how black people commit murder because they're poor. It works like this:

1. Be poor.
2. Commit murder.
3. Serve 20 years in prison.
4. ???
5. Profit and no longer be poor.

I'm confused. How would spending 20 years in jail provide a profit?

 

[cnm]

For example in many states of the US there are more restrictions on driving a vehicle than there are on possessing a firearm.

 

[cnm]

They don't. Not because they are inanimate, but because fuck you, it is an inalienable right. You are fucking over millions to control the one, which is unlikely to be effective.

An inalienable right that is already fucked with. For example, you can't own a nuke, a military weapon. As to effectiveness, the experience of other countries shows the effectiveness of strongly regulating handguns and military style semi automatics in reducing firearm homicide and public massacres.

That you are prepared to put up with both a high rate of school shootings and firearm homicides as the price of easy access to those categories of firearms demonstrates the essential selfishness of the US, where the privilege of the individual overrides the good of the many. Rather you than me.