Aborted fetus = Lucky bastard?

[AllieBaba]

I believe that this might be a monstrous and gross simplification over the argument that you are referring to.

Monstrous?

 

[ReillyT]

It's quite dangerous, actually.

But courts recognize fathers and mothers equally after children are born. Initially. Ultimately one or the other may have sole or primary custody, but the standard is they are both parents, period. If that's the truth after the child is born, why should it be different before it's born?

I think a better compromise than the one Shogun is suggesting would be that if the father disclaims responsiblity for the fetus from the beginning and the mother has adequate resources such that child support is unnecessary, then the father should not be required to pay child support. However, if the mother should fall on hard times, the father is always potentially liable to support the child. That alleviates some of the inequities that Shogun is upset about and ensures that the child is provided for until adulthood.

Under no circumstances do I think it is reasonable to force a woman to have a child because the father wants one. If he wants one so badly, he is free to adopt.

 

[ReillyT]

Monstrous?

Yep.

 

[manifold]

I think a better compromise than the one Shogun is suggesting would be that if the father disclaims responsiblity for the fetus from the beginning and the mother has adequate resources such that child support is unnecessary, then the father should not be required to pay child support. However, if the mother should fall on hard times, the father is always potentially liable to support the child. That alleviates some of the inequities that Shogun is upset about and ensures that the child is provided for until adulthood.

Under no circumstances do I think it is reasonable to force a woman to have a child because the father wants one. If he wants one so badly, he is free to adopt.

Now why you gonna go and inject sanity, reason and moderation into a discussion so wonderfully rife with insanity, unreasonableness and extremism? However, I think the mother's means (as well as the father's) are already taken into account when determining child support.

 

[ReillyT]

Now why you gonna go and inject sanity, reason and moderation into a discussion so wonderfully rife with insanity, unreasonableness and extremism? However, I think the mother's means (as well as the father's) are already taken into account when determining child support.

I believe you are right, but I don't know the manner to which it is taken into account. Does a woman's adequate means just lower the amount of child support, or can it be sufficient (excluding truly extreme cases) to render child support completely unnecessary? I would guess Jillian has the answer.

 

[ReillyT]

Now why you gonna go and inject sanity, reason and moderation into a discussion so wonderfully rife with insanity, unreasonableness and extremism?

Sorry. I don't mean to take the fun out of it.

 

[manifold]

Sorry. I don't mean to take the fun out of it.

Party pooper!

 

[Shogun]

Cable bill? Clearly you've never had anything to do with any type of child support proceeding. It's not about cable bills. It's about men having to pay for children. If men got out of it by saying they don't want the child, every child support case I've ever done/seen would have ended with the guy being off the hook. But guess what, as I said, once the kid's born, the law doesn't care about what subterfuge men use to try to get out of child support....it only cares about the child being taken care of.

Besides, tell me you know a single man who would stand up and say, yeah, I want to support a kid I had accidentally with some woman I wouldn't choose to live with.

If you're all worried about it, use a condom.

cable bills. Do you want me to start posting sources and scare you back into calling me an antise, er, woman hating misogynist? And spare me, you are not the last bastion of expterise on child support just because you have a vagina. Shit, you act like a man OWES you for making the same iresponsible decision that he made.


Off the hook my ass. WHAT are you afraid of, Jill? NOt being able to use your vagina for income like an angler fish? That you might have to *GASP* be a bit more personally responsible in deciding who to fuck? Yes, I feel for you. You ARE just as put down as your ancestors from 200 years ago. You poor, POOR soul you.

 

[ReillyT]

cable bills. Do you want me to start posting sources and scare you back into calling me an antise, er, woman hating misogynist? And spare me, you are not the last bastion of expterise on child support just because you have a vagina. Shit, you act like a man OWES you for making the same iresponsible decision that he made.


Off the hook my ass. WHAT are you afraid of, Jill? NOt being able to use your vagina for income like an angler fish? That you might have to *GASP* be a bit more personally responsible in deciding who to fuck? Yes, I feel for you. You ARE just as put down as your ancestors from 200 years ago. You poor, POOR soul you.

I believe she is the person to ask about child support because she is a lawyer and her previous comments indicate she is familiar with this type of law.

 

[Shogun]

He's not. Blow up dolls can't get pregnant.

He just hates woman on account of a lifetime of rejection.

Once again, I see you brought you "A" game.

 

[ReillyT]

cable bills. Do you want me to start posting sources and scare you back into calling me an antise, er, woman hating misogynist? And spare me, you are not the last bastion of expterise on child support just because you have a vagina. Shit, you act like a man OWES you for making the same iresponsible decision that he made.


Off the hook my ass. WHAT are you afraid of, Jill? NOt being able to use your vagina for income like an angler fish? That you might have to *GASP* be a bit more personally responsible in deciding who to fuck? Yes, I feel for you. You ARE just as put down as your ancestors from 200 years ago. You poor, POOR soul you.

Your focus is almost exclusively about the man, while child support is about the child.

Do you have some fixation on the word vagina?

 

[Shogun]

I understand.

clearly, since any man who wants to reserve their patenal rights is either gay, never had sex, or fucking balloons.

 

[jillian]

I believe you are right, but I don't know the manner to which it is taken into account. Does a woman's adequate means just lower the amount of child support, or can it be sufficient (excluding truly extreme cases) to render child support completely unnecessary? I would guess Jillian has the answer.

I can only speak to NY. And I haven't practiced matrimonial/family law in a while, so there may have been changes that I'm not up on. (So, as a proviso, take nothing in here as dispensing legal advice...nothing...it is for discussion purposes only). But as I recall, child support is allocated between the parties but generally, again in NY, a non-custodial parent pays about 17% of adjusted gross income in child support (about 24% for two children) (these numbers may have changed), but there is a poverty reserve and, in theory, there is supposed to be some offset if a custodial parent is wealthy, but it generally works out to the statutory rate. If there is a benefit to the person with more modest means, you will see it more in payment for college.

As for child support being unnecessary, the only time I've ever seen there be no award of child support is when the non-custodial parent is at poverty level and child support would put him or her under the reserve amount. That doesn't mean there aren't other situations, but that's what I've seen.

 

[AllieBaba]

Here in Oregon it doesn't matter if you're at the poverty level or not. If there's an order, they'll even dock your unemployment.

Personally, I think it's just and fair.

 

[Shogun]

Childbirth is an instrusive, painful and somewhat dangerous experience that only one side of your compromise has to deal with.

Child support isn't just between the parents. It is also a social mechanism to ensure that children that are born are properly provided for.

I can see where you are going with your argument, and it has some intuitive appeal, but I don't buy it.

as intrusive as an abortion? painful as an abortion? dangerous as an abortion?


Like I've said, I don't care who or how much these gals fuck... but, regarding a compromise where both parties must give if they are to take, there is no excuse for a woman who is equipped with the entire expanse of knowledge from Education to zygote termination, not to be AS responsible for HER zipper decision. But they have no problem telling a man that his perogative ended when he unzipped his pants.

ridiculous.


properly cared for?

yes, 30 years of post RvW says that is exactly what we see today. Well taken care of kids.

yup.

 

[ReillyT]

Here in Oregon it doesn't matter if you're at the poverty level or not. If there's an order, they'll even dock your unemployment.

Personally, I think it's just and fair.

That does mean that there was an order. Are you sure that the non-custodial parent's means aren't taken into account when fashioning the order?

 

[jillian]

as intrusive as an abortion? painful as an abortion? dangerous as an abortion?

moreso; moreso and moreso

And you guys have done such a good job taking care of your kids that I heard on the news this morning that the majority of public assistance is the result of divorce.

Good job, guys!! Keep up the good work. And do tell us some more that you want to force women to have children.

 

[jillian]

That does mean that there was an order. Are you sure that the non-custodial parent's means aren't taken into account when fashioning the order?

That would be where someone doesn't pay and doesn't ask the court to reduce the amount if his/her circumsstances change, at least in NY.

I can't imagine it's any different elsewhere, though that doesn't mean it isn't.

 

[Shogun]

I think a better compromise than the one Shogun is suggesting would be that if the father disclaims responsiblity for the fetus from the beginning and the mother has adequate resources such that child support is unnecessary, then the father should not be required to pay child support. However, if the mother should fall on hard times, the father is always potentially liable to support the child. That alleviates some of the inequities that Shogun is upset about and ensures that the child is provided for until adulthood.

Under no circumstances do I think it is reasonable to force a woman to have a child because the father wants one. If he wants one so badly, he is free to adopt.

what woman can YOU think of that going to turn down free state mandated money from a man? Let's be realistic here.

So, a man is free to adopt HIS fucking genetic child? Maybe you can tell me what source tells you that a fucking fetus is just a lump of tissue of a WOMANS body and not a genetically seperate BODY of its own..

 

[Shogun]

I believe she is the person to ask about child support because she is a lawyer and her previous comments indicate she is familiar with this type of law.

lawyers are the last word on issues kinda like the pope is the last word on science.