Abortion: A Sad Reality

[MsAnthrope]

At this point you can choose any of the moral, legal, or political arguments in the thread....

...but the truth is that the most attractive aspect of Liberalism....for many folks....is that you can create a private morality that excuses any behavior.

Including killing a baby for convenience.

Right wingers like to pretend that women who have abortions are all liberal, immoral and killing babies for convenience. All of these assumptions ignore the facts which are that most of the women having abortions are not immoral teenagers, but in fact mature adults, the majority of whom are married or in a committed relationship and poor.

They are not "killing babies" out of convenience, they are terminating unintended pregnancies for reasons because their families cannot, under the current economic conditions for the poor in the USA today, afford to carry, bear or raise that child. Current right wing economic policies are not family friendly in any way and there are no plans for changing that situation anytime soon.

Since most right-wingers are not in favour of mandated maternity leave and guarantees that workers can return to their jobs, and believe that employers should have the right to fire a pregnant worker, it is disingenuous of you to claim to care about the children who are lost due to abortion.

I'm tired of this phony, holier than thou attitude on the part of people who don't support family friendly employment practices. Your insincere moral outrage is disgusting.

Could not have said it better. How can you possibly argue with this? (Unless, of course, you want to punish women)

 

[ron4342]

Those on the right want to tell a woman she must have that baby, and then when she does and cannot support it, they call her a welfare leech. The hypocrisy is astounding.

Exactly. I am so sick and tired of seeing some people argue that funding planned parenthood is welfare and then making the argument that welfare is broken because it encourages women to have children. wtf?

Just eliminate welfare & planned parenthood.

Problem solved with billions of dollars saved!

The stupidity and cruelity of the right is unbounded. "Eliminate welfare and planned parenthood" and the problem is solved. The problem with this is that millions of women depend on Planned Parenthood for basic health care that they cannot afford any other way. "Hell, they don't need healthcare. Let them die." And as for getting rid of welfare, who cares if families are being forced to starve and die on the streets. "I've got mine! Fuck um!!!!! I only care about children if they are still in the womb. After they are born, who cares if they live or die." Isn't that what you are thinking? You define POS!

 

[JoeB131]

My point....proven....is that she is killing a discrete individual.....a separate entity.

Except that it is not separate. It is attached to her body. If it was separate, it wouldn't need to be attached her via the umbilical cord, would it?

So you are saying that the unborn child is like any other part of the body like the appendix or the gal bladder, etc.

Naw, it's actually major surgery to get rid of a gall bladder or appendix, and you actually need those things.

 

[Mac1958]

.

As with every other issue that becomes politicized, this one is rife with intellectual dishonesty.

The position of the pro-lifers is that an abortion is the slaughter of an innocent human life. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

In response, the standard strategy by the pro-choicers is to identify a fetus as a thing or an object, even though that thing or object has a body and a head and eyes and ears and limbs and a brain and its own unique DNA. They argue that it is not a person or a baby, but one argument they cannot make is that it's not innocent human life. Of course, they never go there. I've never seen that statement made. So, they play games. A fetus is equitable to a rock or a kidney stone, evidently.

Oh, by the way, I would be considered pro-choice. I loathe abortion, but I think a civilization has to make some tough choices and allow society actions like this on the margins. What I would really like to see is both ends of this argument to pool their considerable resources and passion and energy to make adoption as efficient and effective as possible and to minimize the biggest abortion issue, which is demand.

Not holding my breath, of course.

.

 

[JoeB131]

.

As with every other issue that becomes politicized, this one is rife with intellectual dishonesty.

The position of the pro-lifers is that an abortion is the slaughter of an innocent human life. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

In response, the standard strategy by the pro-choicers is to identify a fetus as a thing or an object, even though that thing or object has a body and a head and eyes and ears and limbs and a brain and its own unique DNA. They argue that it is not a person or a baby, but one argument they cannot make is that it's not innocent human life. Of course, they never go there. I've never seen that statement made. So, they play games. A fetus is equitable to a rock or a kidney stone, evidently.

Oh, by the way, I would be considered pro-choice. I loathe abortion, but I think a civilization has to make some tough choices and allow society actions like this on the margins. What I would really like to see is both ends of this argument to pool their considerable resources and passion and energy to make adoption as efficient and effective as possible and to minimize the biggest abortion issue, which is demand.

Not holding my breath, of course.

.

What is a Kidney Stone guilty of?

I think all this Right Wing moaning about the "poor innocent babies" would have a lot more resonance with me if they gave a damn about them when they were out of Fetal Form.

You know, if they weren't trying to pull food out of their mouths by cutting school lunches and SNAP and Head Start.

Do you what changed me from a Republican to a ... well, I don't want to say Democrat, but someone more receptive to their views?

It was the realization that the GOP is only about letting the wealthy fuck over the rest of us, and all the other issues - gays, guns, abortions - are bullshit to keep the Rubes upset.

There are ways to reduce the number of abortions. Those nasty socialist Europeans have done them. Universal health care, comprehensive sex education, family and medical leave, fair wage laws.

France has half the per-capita abortions we have. Not because they ban the abortions. The government actually pays for them!

But Geez, that might mean the rich have to pay their fair share, and heck, they might not be able to buy a Dressage Horsie.

 

[Edgetho]

.

As with every other issue that becomes politicized, this one is rife with intellectual dishonesty.

The position of the pro-lifers is that an abortion is the slaughter of an innocent human life. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

In response, the standard strategy by the pro-choicers is to identify a fetus as a thing or an object, even though that thing or object has a body and a head and eyes and ears and limbs and a brain and its own unique DNA. They argue that it is not a person or a baby, but one argument they cannot make is that it's not innocent human life. Of course, they never go there. I've never seen that statement made. So, they play games. A fetus is equitable to a rock or a kidney stone, evidently.

Oh, by the way, I would be considered pro-choice. I loathe abortion, but I think a civilization has to make some tough choices and allow society actions like this on the margins. What I would really like to see is both ends of this argument to pool their considerable resources and passion and energy to make adoption as efficient and effective as possible and to minimize the biggest abortion issue, which is demand.

Not holding my breath, of course.

.

What is a Kidney Stone guilty of?

I think all this Right Wing moaning about the "poor innocent babies" would have a lot more resonance with me if they gave a damn about them when they were out of Fetal Form.

You know, if they weren't trying to pull food out of their mouths by cutting school lunches and SNAP and Head Start.

Do you what changed me from a Republican to a ... well, I don't want to say Democrat, but someone more receptive to their views?

It was the realization that the GOP is only about letting the wealthy fuck over the rest of us, and all the other issues - gays, guns, abortions - are bullshit to keep the Rubes upset.

There are ways to reduce the number of abortions. Those nasty socialist Europeans have done them. Universal health care, comprehensive sex education, family and medical leave, fair wage laws.

France has half the per-capita abortions we have. Not because they ban the abortions. The government actually pays for them!

But Geez, that might mean the rich have to pay their fair share, and heck, they might not be able to buy a Dressage Horsie.

And here, ladies and gents, is the disease, the sickness, the depravity of the entire dimocrap party on full display for all to see.

Equating an unborn child to a Kidney stone?

I've told you before and I'll remind you again.... There is nothing on Earth lower than a dimocrap

 

[Edgetho]

Forgot why I dropped by this idiotic thread.....

The SCOTUS, in essence, slaps down the idiot Judge in Texas who put an injunction on the new Abortion Law.

Worth the read. Ignore the imbecilic dissent from Breyer but Scalia is in full kick-ass mode.

http://t.co/GHelQaco3J

H/T Ace of Spades HQ

 

[JoeB131]

.

As with every other issue that becomes politicized, this one is rife with intellectual dishonesty.

The position of the pro-lifers is that an abortion is the slaughter of an innocent human life. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

In response, the standard strategy by the pro-choicers is to identify a fetus as a thing or an object, even though that thing or object has a body and a head and eyes and ears and limbs and a brain and its own unique DNA. They argue that it is not a person or a baby, but one argument they cannot make is that it's not innocent human life. Of course, they never go there. I've never seen that statement made. So, they play games. A fetus is equitable to a rock or a kidney stone, evidently.

Oh, by the way, I would be considered pro-choice. I loathe abortion, but I think a civilization has to make some tough choices and allow society actions like this on the margins. What I would really like to see is both ends of this argument to pool their considerable resources and passion and energy to make adoption as efficient and effective as possible and to minimize the biggest abortion issue, which is demand.

Not holding my breath, of course.

.

What is a Kidney Stone guilty of?

I think all this Right Wing moaning about the "poor innocent babies" would have a lot more resonance with me if they gave a damn about them when they were out of Fetal Form.

You know, if they weren't trying to pull food out of their mouths by cutting school lunches and SNAP and Head Start.

Do you what changed me from a Republican to a ... well, I don't want to say Democrat, but someone more receptive to their views?

It was the realization that the GOP is only about letting the wealthy fuck over the rest of us, and all the other issues - gays, guns, abortions - are bullshit to keep the Rubes upset.

There are ways to reduce the number of abortions. Those nasty socialist Europeans have done them. Universal health care, comprehensive sex education, family and medical leave, fair wage laws.

France has half the per-capita abortions we have. Not because they ban the abortions. The government actually pays for them!

But Geez, that might mean the rich have to pay their fair share, and heck, they might not be able to buy a Dressage Horsie.

And here, ladies and gents, is the disease, the sickness, the depravity of the entire dimocrap party on full display for all to see.

Equating an unborn child to a Kidney stone?

I've told you before and I'll remind you again.... There is nothing on Earth lower than a dimocrap

Talk to Mac, he's the one who brought innocent Kidney stones into the conversation...

A fetus is not a child. It is not "unborn". It is a fetus.

When you Wingnuts start giving a fuck about children who are in non-fetus form, even the black and brown ones, then I'll take you seriously abuot the fetuses.

 

[Mac1958]

What is a Kidney Stone guilty of?

I think all this Right Wing moaning about the "poor innocent babies" would have a lot more resonance with me if they gave a damn about them when they were out of Fetal Form.

You know, if they weren't trying to pull food out of their mouths by cutting school lunches and SNAP and Head Start.

Do you what changed me from a Republican to a ... well, I don't want to say Democrat, but someone more receptive to their views?

It was the realization that the GOP is only about letting the wealthy fuck over the rest of us, and all the other issues - gays, guns, abortions - are bullshit to keep the Rubes upset.

There are ways to reduce the number of abortions. Those nasty socialist Europeans have done them. Universal health care, comprehensive sex education, family and medical leave, fair wage laws.

France has half the per-capita abortions we have. Not because they ban the abortions. The government actually pays for them!

But Geez, that might mean the rich have to pay their fair share, and heck, they might not be able to buy a Dressage Horsie.

And here, ladies and gents, is the disease, the sickness, the depravity of the entire dimocrap party on full display for all to see.

Equating an unborn child to a Kidney stone?

I've told you before and I'll remind you again.... There is nothing on Earth lower than a dimocrap

Talk to Mac, he's the one who brought innocent Kidney stones into the conversation...

A fetus is not a child. It is not "unborn". It is a fetus.

When you Wingnuts start giving a fuck about children who are in non-fetus form, even the black and brown ones, then I'll take you seriously abuot the fetuses.

Joe, is a fetus an innocent human life?

.

 

[Edgetho]

What is a Kidney Stone guilty of?

I think all this Right Wing moaning about the "poor innocent babies" would have a lot more resonance with me if they gave a damn about them when they were out of Fetal Form.

You know, if they weren't trying to pull food out of their mouths by cutting school lunches and SNAP and Head Start.

Do you what changed me from a Republican to a ... well, I don't want to say Democrat, but someone more receptive to their views?

It was the realization that the GOP is only about letting the wealthy fuck over the rest of us, and all the other issues - gays, guns, abortions - are bullshit to keep the Rubes upset.

There are ways to reduce the number of abortions. Those nasty socialist Europeans have done them. Universal health care, comprehensive sex education, family and medical leave, fair wage laws.

France has half the per-capita abortions we have. Not because they ban the abortions. The government actually pays for them!

But Geez, that might mean the rich have to pay their fair share, and heck, they might not be able to buy a Dressage Horsie.

And here, ladies and gents, is the disease, the sickness, the depravity of the entire dimocrap party on full display for all to see.

Equating an unborn child to a Kidney stone?

I've told you before and I'll remind you again.... There is nothing on Earth lower than a dimocrap

Talk to Mac, he's the one who brought innocent Kidney stones into the conversation...

A fetus is not a child. It is not "unborn". It is a fetus.

When you Wingnuts start giving a fuck about children who are in non-fetus form, even the black and brown ones, then I'll take you seriously abuot the fetuses.

Fuck you, bitch.

Who started the 'no child left behind' program?

Who passed the 'child soldiers prevention act'?

And for a bonus, who was the scumbag that waived it?

Who signed and renewed the School Lunch program?

Fuck you. You are a scumbag and douche.

This is what dimocrap scum do every time they get backed into a corner...

Republicans hate children, we hate women, we hate Blacks and the fucking moderators let you get away with it.

I won't.

You are a scum-sucking, knob-slurping piece of fucking shit.

Die already

 

[JoeB131]

[


Joe, is a fetus an innocent human life?

.

Nope.

Life would indicate viability outside the woman's body.

Which in most cases, is simply not the case, at least not until the third trimester.

But as a pure practical matter, the kind of police state that would be required to force women to have babies they don't want to have isn't a country I think any of us would want to live in.

There actually was a country that tried to live the ultimate funditard we dream of banning not only abortion but birth control.

That was Romania under Nicolae Ceausescu... Yup, the only country to try to ban abortion was a Communist one.

It was one of the late dictator's cruelest commands. At first Romania's birthrate nearly doubled. But poor nutrition and inadequate prenatal care endangered many pregnant women. The country's infant-mortality rate soard to 83 deaths in every 1,000 births (against a Western European average of less than 10 per thousand). About one in 10 babies was born underweight; newborns weighing 1,500 grams (3 pounds, 5 ounces) were classified as miscarriages and denied treatment. Unwanted survivors often ended up in orphanages. "The law only forbade abortion," says Dr. Alexander Floran Anca of Bucharest. "It did nothing to promote life."

Ceausescu made mockery of family planning. He forbade sex education. Books on human sexuality and reproduction were classified as "state secrets," to be used only as medical textbooks. With contraception banned, Romanians had to smuggle in condoms and birth-control pills. Though strictly illegal, abortions remained a widespread birth-control measure of last resort. Nationwide, Western sources estimate, 60 percent of all pregnancies ended in abortion or miscarriage.

The government's enforcement techniques were as bad as the law. Women under the age of 45 were rounded up at their workplaces every one to three months and taken to clinics, where they were examined for signs of pregnancy, often in the presence of government agents - dubbed the "menstrual police" by some Romanians. A pregnant woman who failed to "produce" a baby at the proper time could expect to be summoned for questioning. Women who miscarried were suspected of arranging an abortion. Some doctors resorted for forging statistics. "If a child died in our district, we lost 10 to 25 percent of our salary," says Dr. Geta Stanescu of Bucharest. "But it wasn't our fault: we had no medicine or milk, and the families were poor."

and there's more.

The rebels who overthrew Ceausescu last month quickly rescinded the policy. "I would have killed Ceausescu for that law alone," says Maria Dulce from her bed at Bucharest's Municipal Hospital. The 29-year-old mother of two is recovering from a self-induced abortion. Here eyes are bruised with fatigue. She is among a half dozen women in the dingy hospital room. Dulce says she terminated her pregnancy because of the trauma associated with caring for her second child, an 18-month-old boy. "We had to buy milk on the black market," she says, "and we had to buy a heater just for the baby's room." She had to have an emergency hysterectomy only days before the uprising. "Now that it's possible for a woman to be a woman again I'm mutilated," Dulce says through tears. "And now there is a reason to have a child in this country."

www.ceausescu.org - the leading infosource on the web about Ceausescu and his era!

 

[JoeB131]

[

When you Wingnuts start giving a fuck about children who are in non-fetus form, even the black and brown ones, then I'll take you seriously abuot the fetuses.

Fuck you, bitch.

Who started the 'no child left behind' program?

Who passed the 'child soldiers prevention act'?

And for a bonus, who was the scumbag that waived it?

Who signed and renewed the School Lunch program?

Fuck you. You are a scumbag and douche.

This is what dimocrap scum do every time they get backed into a corner...

Republicans hate children, we hate women, we hate Blacks and the fucking moderators let you get away with it.

I won't.

You are a scum-sucking, knob-slurping piece of fucking shit.

Die already

"No Child Left Behind" was something Ted Kennedy Pushed for and Bush agreed to as part of the "New Tone", but it was a truly dreadful piece of legislation, as any teacher will tell you.

Or as my neice told me a couple years ago, "If it's not on the test, they don't teach it to us, Uncle Joe."

We could also talk about how Newt tried to kill the School lunch program until Clinton slapped him down.

 

[Mac1958]

[


Joe, is a fetus an innocent human life?

.

Nope.

Life would indicate viability outside the woman's body.

Which in most cases, is simply not the case, at least not until the third trimester.

Well, I'll give you credit, that's the first time I've gotten an answer to that question.

So, just to be sure, you're saying that a fetus, arms and legs moving, brain functioning, DNA-specific, is not human life.

Is that correct?

.

 

[Edgetho]

[


Joe, is a fetus an innocent human life?

.

Nope.

Life would indicate viability outside the woman's body.

Which in most cases, is simply not the case, at least not until the third trimester.

Well, I'll give you credit, that's the first time I've gotten an answer to that question.

So, just to be sure, you're saying that a fetus, arms and legs moving, brain functioning, DNA-specific, is not human life.

Is that correct?

.

A fetus can feel pain at 20 weeks.

But it's still not a 'life'?

This is your dimocrap mentality, people. This is why we had to kill over a quarter million of the motherfuckers in the Civil War.

Same mentality. Same, exact mentality. Nee-groes ain't human like you and me. They're property.

 

[lakeview]

As with every other issue that becomes politicized, this one is rife with intellectual dishonesty.

The position of the pro-lifers is that an abortion is the slaughter of an innocent human life. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

Some of them hold this position. Some of them like to preach on and on about murder but then make exceptions. Some of them call it murder but only in the second or third trimester. I don't think the pro-life position is as straightforward as you say because while some are as principled and consistent as you say others are not.

In response, the standard strategy by the pro-choicers is to identify a fetus as a thing or an object, even though that thing or object has a body and a head and eyes and ears and limbs and a brain and its own unique DNA. They argue that it is not a person or a baby, but one argument they cannot make is that it's not innocent human life. Of course, they never go there. I've never seen that statement made. So, they play games. A fetus is equitable to a rock or a kidney stone, evidently.

Some pro-choice people do play games by trying to redefine fetus and imply that it's not really human but anyone who's taken any college-level Biology can see the flaw in that argument. Other pro-choicers, and I fall into this category, understand that while a fetus is a human and is innocent the fetus will always lose to the mother in a contest of rights. In fact, the reasoning used by some pro-lifers to justify exceptions for rape and incest is really an acknowledgement of the supremacy of the rights of the mother if you think about it. Most of the people who make that argument don't like to think though so I'm not holding my breath.

Oh, by the way, I would be considered pro-choice. I loathe abortion, but I think a civilization has to make some tough choices and allow society actions like this on the margins. What I would really like to see is both ends of this argument to pool their considerable resources and passion and energy to make adoption as efficient and effective as possible and to minimize the biggest abortion issue, which is demand.

Not holding my breath, of course.

I'm not sure there's any law or movement that will significantly reduce demand. Women are already aware that carrying to term and then giving the baby up for adoption is an option. Probably the only thing that will significantly effect demand would be significantly improved economic conditions for the age group having most of the abortions.

 

[PoliticalChic]

At this point you can choose any of the moral, legal, or political arguments in the thread....

...but the truth is that the most attractive aspect of Liberalism....for many folks....is that you can create a private morality that excuses any behavior.

Including killing a baby for convenience.

Right wingers like to pretend that women who have abortions are all liberal, immoral and killing babies for convenience. All of these assumptions ignore the facts which are that most of the women having abortions are not immoral teenagers, but in fact mature adults, the majority of whom are married or in a committed relationship and poor.

They are not "killing babies" out of convenience, they are terminating unintended pregnancies for reasons because their families cannot, under the current economic conditions for the poor in the USA today, afford to carry, bear or raise that child. Current right wing economic policies are not family friendly in any way and there are no plans for changing that situation anytime soon.

Since most right-wingers are not in favour of mandated maternity leave and guarantees that workers can return to their jobs, and believe that employers should have the right to fire a pregnant worker, it is disingenuous of you to claim to care about the children who are lost due to abortion.

I'm tired of this phony, holier than thou attitude on the part of people who don't support family friendly employment practices. Your insincere moral outrage is disgusting.

1. "Right wingers like to pretend that women who have abortions are all liberal,..."
The concept and the force behind same is Liberalism.


2. "...they are not "killing babies" out of convenience, they are terminating unintended pregnancies for reasons because their families cannot, under the current economic conditions for the poor in the USA today, afford to carry, bear or raise that child. "

That's pretty much the definition of convenience, dope.

con·ven·ience (kn-vnyns)
n.
The quality of being suitable to one's comfort, purposes, or needs:

You should learn English.

It would be the same reasoning for mugging passersby if one were poor.


3. " Current right wing economic policies are not family friendly...."
You lying simpleton.
Right wing economic policies are known as 'capitalism.'

"Under capitalism, the standard of living of all was improving: prices falling, incomes rising, health and sanitation improving, lengthening of life spans, diets becoming more varied, the new jobs created in industry paid more than most could make in agriculture, housing improved, and middle class industrialists and business owners displaced nobility and gentry as heroes."
https://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2007&month=05



When will you realize that every time you open your mouth...or post....you subtract from the total of human knowledge?

Ever?

 

[PoliticalChic]

[

By avoiding the question, I'll assume you have no way to dispute the fact that the baby is clearly not.....as you claimed....'her body.'

This is not about when or if the separate individual can survive. We'll leave up to medical science.

My point....proven....is that she is killing a discrete individual.....a separate entity.

And COMPLETELY irrelevent to my point.

Unless you are going to say that the fetus has MORE rights than the woman it is in, that you are willing to use the POWER of the state to compell her to have a baby she doesn't want, it is at the end of the day HER choice to continue the pregnancy.

At this point you can choose any of the moral, legal, or political arguments in the thread....

...but the truth is that the most attractive aspect of Liberalism....for many folks....is that you can create a private morality that excuses any behavior.

Including killing a baby for convenience.

My work here is done.

Oh, please. Conservativism is one long excuse for selfishness.

Here's where I come from on abortion.

Abortion is how the rich got stupid people like you and Templar to go along with them dismantling your middle class lifestyle and making you like it.

Even though in 40 years since Roe, the needle on Abortion has not moved one inch.

"Oh, please. Conservativism is one long excuse for selfishness."

More proof that you should only open your mouth to change feet.

What could exemplify 'selfishness' more than taking another's life for convenience?

 

[PoliticalChic]

My point....proven....is that she is killing a discrete individual.....a separate entity.

Except that it is not separate. It is attached to her body. If it was separate, it wouldn't need to be attached her via the umbilical cord, would it?

How about handcuffs? That make two people one?


Of course it is a separate being.
Did you want to explain the different fingerprints? DNA? Blood types?



And this: In half of all pregnancies, the unborn child is a male, meaning that even the sex of the child is different from the mother.


Makes you look like a dope, doesn't it?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Why is that relevent in the least?

Don't pretend to be any more ignorant than you are.

How could it be her body?



Clearly, different fingerprints, different blood type....

....and guess what: different DNA.


Not the same person....is it.



I dare you to answer that.

It is inside her body, attached to her body, feeding off her body. How is it NOT her body?

How many ways do you need it explained to you????



As Randy Alcorn states in his book Pro-Life Answers to Pro-Choice Arguments, "A Chinese zygote implanted in a Swedish woman will always be Chinese, not Swedish, because his identity is based on his genetic code, not on that of the body in which he resides."

 

[PoliticalChic]

The biggest argument over abortion isn't whether or not it's okay to kill a human being. The biggest argument over abortion is at what time "life begins". Those on the far right seem to believe life begins at conception. Those on the far left seem to believe life begins when a fetus can live independently of the mother's womb. What moderates on both sides are doing is trying to come to a compromise as to when it's okay to have an abortion. The loud minority on the left and right are only muddying the water, and creating more division than is needed.

Those on the right want to tell a woman she must have that baby, and then when she does and cannot support it, they call her a welfare leech. The hypocrisy is astounding.

You're probably not aware of this....but there are ways to avoid pregnancy.

Really....it's true.