Abortion as Murder.

[BenNatuf]

Abortion of a viable fetus is a crime, it's murder. it's just not enforced. The fact that its not enforced does not make it any less a crime

Really? What's the practical difference then? If jay-walking is technically a crime, but in a small podunk town it is perfectly acceptable and everyone knows it is never enforced, is it still a crime? If your answer is yes because there is still technically a law for it, then I must ask what you think laws actually are.

statutes mostly

So again I ask: what's the difference between a law which is never enforced, and a law which doesn't exist?

one is a law and one is not a law... really, it shouldn't be that difficult.

Let's call this what it is: you're using this as an excuse because you don't have any other reasoning to stand on.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

you have the audacity to claim a law which is a law but is not enforced is not the law and than accuse me of making up excuses?

too funny.

If new policy was passed that definitively stated that abortion was not considered murder, you'd just be complaining about something else, when the practical applications and outcomes have not actually changed.

the congress can at its whim define a person as a person at any arbitrary point of developement they wish, when they do that will be the law. My argument is not based on what the law "might be if it were changed", its based on what the law is, though its not enforced properly.

Given that the morning after pill prevents conception I would tend to agree. Also I'm not entirely sold that conception is the point so much as implantation. persons cannot be held in stasis, embryo's can. Once implanted they cannot... just like any other person.

That's actually not true at all. If an embryo implants, and it is removed soon thereafter, it can still be held in status. As I stated earlier, people who don't really understand the biology always tend to draw these arbitrary lines in the sand, when no such differentiation exists.

no, thats not true and you making shit up won't change that. Once implantation occurs the fetus embryo cannot be removed without killing it.

That is absolutely false. From the moment of conception it is biologically a human being.

And what comprises "human being?"

science

Before you responded to someone by saying they were a clump of cells just as embryos are. So are dogs. What you missed was that the person was insinuating there was no higher order to that clump of cells, where there are in humans.

That cl;ump of cells is no different than any other human clump of cells... just in a different stage of developement. Dogs on the other hand are pets, or in some parts food. They are not covered by the equal protection clause and are not entitled to due process

 

[BenNatuf]

Don't you dare compare ALL victims of WWII with abortion. Don't even belong in the same paragraph. Unless you're a religous zealot..

...oh..

...that's right...
you are....

By what deserved arrogance do you claim the right to tell anyone what comparisons they can make?

the same where you and others can try to tell a woman what to do with their body....

she can choose to murder all she wants, and she should be punished accordingly.

 

[jillian]

ah.. judge, jury and executioner.

it must be so nice to think one's so much more moral than others.

 

[Dr Grump]

The answer to that depends greatly on which subset of the world you belong...the 350 million that were born in the US and can speak for themselves, or the 50 million that were aborted and have no voice.

Fair enough.

I believe that a woman should not abort, but also it is their choice (and their partners).

In saying that, I do have a problem with people trying to sell me that something that is only 2 months gestation is a viable anything, let alone a human.

Then there is the other aspect, that a lot of anti-abortionists see this as "god's childen" being punished by selfish people. I just see it as humans making a choice - one that most don't want to make BTW - but is there right to make.

Where anti-aboritionists lose me (to any valid aspect of their argument), is when they start sprouting out words like "abortion factories" like you just did. Like there's this group of woman lining up like it's the Macy day sales. Please, Missourian, you're better than that.

I have said this once, and I'll say it again. I have seen the human face of abortion on three occasions. All three of them found it a traumatic experience and hated every moment of it.

Anti-abortionists also take things to the nth degree. They act like late term abortions are:
1) The norm (they are not)
2) Are carried out in a care-free, "who gives a shit" manner (theyr'e not)
3) the doctors performing them are sitting there with a big smile on their face going "yippee!" (they're not)
4) That on the rare occasion when a mother, having not gotten an abortion in the first two trimesters, then wants to abort a perfectly healthy foetus near the end of the third, people should be looking into the mental state/well being of the mother as opposed to ostricising her because something has gone terribly wrong in her thought processes.

Until anti-abortionists get rid of the vitriolic rhetoric, and stop using extreme examples as the norm, most (but not all) will get treated with the ridicule they deserve.

They are abortion factories Doc.

I heard that the Republican controlled House is working to end Title X (ten) payments to Planned Parenthood, because of the profits they make from abortions...and it's astronomical.

Planned Parenthood 800 clinics preform 300,000 abortions per year...fully one quarter of the 1.2 million annual abortions in the US.



I'm not a fanatic...use condoms, use the pill, use RU486, use the morning after pill, but once a baby forms, once it's heart starts beating, once it's brain begins forming, it's too late for birth control. Period.

If the mother is going to die, I understand having an abortion...that's triage. Sometimes you have to make a decision between two tragic outcomes, it sucks but I understand.

Rape and incest...I understand.

Health of the mother...as long as it is not used as an excuse for abortion as birth control, I understand...but today, abortion providers continue to use "health of the mother" as a catch all excuse for abortion-on-demand, and that is why pro-lifers oppose it.

I can tell you not even ten percent of the 1.2 million abortions annually in the US are due to rape, incest, life or legitimate health concerns combined. The number of US live births is 4.1 million.

We are aborting 20 percent of the babies conceived!!!


That's not just a travesty, or a tragedy...that's a nightmare.


Here are some links to back up my numbers:

National News

Live Births and Birth Rates, by Year — Infoplease.com

And I see it, in the main, as nature taking its course. I don't have a problem with abortion in the first trimester at all (although, almost contradictory, I would still recommend the mother keep the foetus). There are already too many unwanted kids in the world....

 

[BenNatuf]

Abortion is not the equivalent of slavery and not the equivalent of the Holocaust.

False analogy.

false denial of an analogy


boy, this debatin' thing is easy!

Let us know when you actually form an argument.

I won't hold my breath

 

[BenNatuf]

No, the law defines what is murder, not you. When the law is passed that makes abortion murder, you can crow.

Right now you get to eat it.

Yep, like when the law held that slavery was legal. Blacks were property not people cuz the law is what matter, so those who called blacks equal should have STFU, the Supreme Court ruled Blacks were property and slavery was Constitutional and if you didn't like it, you got to eat it.

Thank God folks didn't all believe that nonsense that just because it was the law, it was right...someday in the future, folks will look back at the tragedy of the murder of 50 million unborn children in abortion factories the way we look back on the atrocity of slavery today.

Roe v. Wade will be the Dred Scott of the 20th Century.

Yeah, because the world needs 50 million more people, right?

I think I answered this befor, if the problem is overpopulation certainly we can do better than the attrition of abortion. Where do you propose we start?

 

[BenNatuf]

Abortion is not illegal.

still stuck on the falacious argument of nonenforcement?

abortion of unviable fetus' is not illegal.

 

[BenNatuf]

thank you for making it very clear that choice is not yours, only mine. Thus, the choice is only that of the mother, and you don't have a fricking thing morally to say about it.

Choice is a weak argument. People choose to do lots of things their in jail for.

That is one of your weaker comments. Please do better.

so its your contention that the people in prison didn't choose to break the law?

yeah, you should try harder.

 

[Missourian]

Fair enough.

I believe that a woman should not abort, but also it is their choice (and their partners).

In saying that, I do have a problem with people trying to sell me that something that is only 2 months gestation is a viable anything, let alone a human.

Then there is the other aspect, that a lot of anti-abortionists see this as "god's childen" being punished by selfish people. I just see it as humans making a choice - one that most don't want to make BTW - but is there right to make.

Where anti-aboritionists lose me (to any valid aspect of their argument), is when they start sprouting out words like "abortion factories" like you just did. Like there's this group of woman lining up like it's the Macy day sales. Please, Missourian, you're better than that.

I have said this once, and I'll say it again. I have seen the human face of abortion on three occasions. All three of them found it a traumatic experience and hated every moment of it.

Anti-abortionists also take things to the nth degree. They act like late term abortions are:
1) The norm (they are not)
2) Are carried out in a care-free, "who gives a shit" manner (theyr'e not)
3) the doctors performing them are sitting there with a big smile on their face going "yippee!" (they're not)
4) That on the rare occasion when a mother, having not gotten an abortion in the first two trimesters, then wants to abort a perfectly healthy foetus near the end of the third, people should be looking into the mental state/well being of the mother as opposed to ostricising her because something has gone terribly wrong in her thought processes.

Until anti-abortionists get rid of the vitriolic rhetoric, and stop using extreme examples as the norm, most (but not all) will get treated with the ridicule they deserve.

They are abortion factories Doc.

I heard that the Republican controlled House is working to end Title X (ten) payments to Planned Parenthood, because of the profits they make from abortions...and it's astronomical.

Planned Parenthood 800 clinics preform 300,000 abortions per year...fully one quarter of the 1.2 million annual abortions in the US.



I'm not a fanatic...use condoms, use the pill, use RU486, use the morning after pill, but once a baby forms, once it's heart starts beating, once it's brain begins forming, it's too late for birth control. Period.

If the mother is going to die, I understand having an abortion...that's triage. Sometimes you have to make a decision between two tragic outcomes, it sucks but I understand.

Rape and incest...I understand.

Health of the mother...as long as it is not used as an excuse for abortion as birth control, I understand...but today, abortion providers continue to use "health of the mother" as a catch all excuse for abortion-on-demand, and that is why pro-lifers oppose it.

I can tell you not even ten percent of the 1.2 million abortions annually in the US are due to rape, incest, life or legitimate health concerns combined. The number of US live births is 4.1 million.

We are aborting 20 percent of the babies conceived!!!


That's not just a travesty, or a tragedy...that's a nightmare.

</p>
Here are some links to back up my numbers:

National News

Live Births and Birth Rates, by Year &mdash; Infoplease.com

And I see it, in the main, as nature taking its course. I don't have a problem with abortion in the first trimester at all (although, almost contradictory, I would still recommend the mother keep the foetus). There are already too many unwanted kids in the world....

Nature neither uses nor requires a knife and a vacuum.

 

[jillian]

Abortion is not illegal.

still stuck on the falacious argument of nonenforcement?

abortion of unviable fetus' is not illegal.

it's not nonenforcement. it's nonenforcement if there is a law making it illegal that the police don't enforce.

words have meaning. you don't get to make up your own.

 

[jillian]

Nature neither uses nor requires a knife and a vacuum.

i've never known anyone who had a knife used on them during an abortion. does it make you feel like your argument is better if you keep tossing out that imagery? imagery doesn't make a bit of difference, it's just a way of propagandizing and inflaming.

i have more respect for you than that...

and no matter how many times you say it, a zygote is not a baby any more than an egg is a chicken.

 

[Charles_Main]

er . . . conception is not the start of a person. You know that as well as any of us. Why are you lying?

New tech has lead to detecting a heart beat as early as 18 days after conception. So when would you say that stops being a mass of meat, and starts being a person.

 

[Charles_Main]

You people keep bringing up Cases where the life of the mother is at risk.

The fact is those cases are about 2% of all abortions.

The Vast majority of Abortions are performed on Younger girls, and the poor. They are carried out for convenience, not because of a risk to the life of the mother.

That is what you call a straw man Argument.

 

[JakeStarkey]

That's the issue, isn't it,Charles, but we are still back to primacy. In battle our medics triage, and those wounded that were not going to make it were shot up full of dope and placed to the side to die, while the medics worked on those who could be saved. A birth is battle in the sense that causalities and moralities occur all to often. The triage protocol mother first, then baby. That is moral, ethical, legal, and absolutely correct. That actions preserves the race.

 

[Charles_Main]

Nature neither uses nor requires a knife and a vacuum.

i've never known anyone who had a knife used on them during an abortion.

i have more respect for you than that...

Wtf are you talking about. Unless they are performed very early almost every Abortion involves the use of a Knife.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You people keep bringing up Cases where the life of the mother is at risk.

The fact is those cases are about 2% of all abortions.

The Vast majority of Abortions are performed on Younger girls, and the poor. They are carried out for convenience, not because of a risk to the life of the mother.

That is what you call a straw man Argument.

Then get your state legislature to tighten the law on open elective abortion. Nobody is saying that Sleazy Suzy Slut should get a free ride on the gubmint.

 

[Charles_Main]

That's the issue, isn't it,Charles, but we are still back to primacy. In battle our medics triage, and those wounded that were not going to make it were shot up full of dope and placed to the side to die, while the medics worked on those who could be saved. A birth is battle in the sense that causalities and moralities occur all to often. The triage protocol mother first, then baby. That is moral, ethical, legal, and absolutely correct. That actions preserves the race.

Of course, and I agree. My point was only that Pro Abortion people use cases where the mother life is at risk, as justification for all the abortions that happen in this country. When the truth is the Vast majority of Abortions are nothing more than Birth Control, and have nothing to do with the life of the mother.

 

[BenNatuf]

An abortion is a homicide, yes; a murder ipso facto, no.

Claiming abortion is not murder simply because it goes unprosecuted is ipso facto falacious. Lots of crimes go unprosecuted... they are no less crimes.

But who gets decide what a crime is?

Nobody gets to "decide" what a crime is except the legislature, the prosecutors do get to decide which ones they'll prosecute though, and they get to decide how they choose to interpret the law in doing so... and until a court tells them otherwise their interpretation is considered the proper application of the law.

So in answer to your question the law is whats written, and intentionally taking the life of another person without due process of law is defined as murder. So whether or not aborting a viable fetus can be defined as murder or not depends entirely on whether a viable fetus is defined as a person.

To discover whether it is you have to understand Roe and later Casey wherein the courts said the states have an interest in protecting the LIFE of a viable fetus. If it is a life what other "life' could it be other than a person? The courts have clearly said it is a "life", it is not a dog, it is not a cow, it is not a chicken or a duck. Is it a legally living "non-person" as slaves once were? If not, what is it? There is only one thing this "life" can represent... a person. As such this person is entitled to the same protections as any other person and if it's life is taken intentionally without due process then it deserves to have its murderers bought to justice just as much as any other person. That would be what "equal protection under the law" means.

What we have now are a class of persons who are not afforded equal protection. That is anathema to the constitution. But it is what we have, it is the reality. Will any prosecutor ever fully enforce the law and by doing protect this class of person equally? Not very likely. That is a political football no-one will touch. They could, they should, but they won't.

 

[Dr Grump]

The Vast majority of Abortions are performed on Younger girls, and the poor. They are carried out for convenience, not because of a risk to the life of the mother.

You mean the poor, uneducated mother who has six kids she can't feed already, but should have 'another' just to make YOU feel better? That kind of convenience?

Or the working class high school girl whose not the brightest spark in the world, and will have trouble getting a decent job, but being 15 and having a child just gives her that much 'better' chance at life? That kind of convenience?

Oh, but that's right being ignorant/stupid/too young is no excuse, right?

 

[Charles_Main]

You people keep bringing up Cases where the life of the mother is at risk.

The fact is those cases are about 2% of all abortions.

The Vast majority of Abortions are performed on Younger girls, and the poor. They are carried out for convenience, not because of a risk to the life of the mother.

That is what you call a straw man Argument.

Then get your state legislature to tighten the law on open elective abortion. Nobody is saying that Sleazy Suzy Slut should get a free ride on the gubmint.

How? Roe V wade says we can not take that choice away from a women. Even if she is making the choice simply because she does not want to be bothered with a child.

Besides when ever anyone talks about putting limits on abortion. The Left attacks them as backwards idiots who want to take away a womens control over her Body.