Abusive relationships - two points of view

[Katzndogz]

When women do use violence against an abuser it is after many years of abuse and these women recognize that for whatever reason they will never leave him.

Francine Hughes is one of the more well known of abuse victims. She set fire to her sleeping husband after years of abuse. He was killed, the house burned to the ground, and she became famous for the burning bed.

Before Mrs. Hughes set her fire, she got dressed, dressed the children, put them in the car and went back in to set the fire. She could have gotten in the car and driven off. She didn't. After years of working with abused women and having abused women as divorce clients, working with counseling centers for abused women, it is clear the reason why Hughes killed her husband is because she knew she would never, could never, leave him.

 

[Polk]

I'm not sure 'like' is the right word, but I understand your meaning.

Generally, those who stay in abusive relationships either had parents who were in that type of relationship or have low self-esteem issues so that they think they deserve to be treated like they are.

Some people like being a victim. I've known women personally who feed off of that type of relationship. Where they not only seek abusive men, but will do anything in their power to push a man into violence.

The women who try to push men to violence like playing the victim, but it's really about control. Ie, they are in control because they can make a man do that.

Again, I know what you're saying here, and I know I'm splitting hairs. Just think that 'like' is the wrong word.

You control your actions. This sort of argument is no different than those saying women are asking to be raped if they're wearing a short skirt.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I believe the answer is found in their 2nd amendment rights. They need to buy a gun and learn how to use it for self defense.

 

[AmyNation]

Mental illness doesn't justify abuse, but that's the argument you're effectively making. If you are being assaulted, you are a victim. Full stop.

I have not seen anyone justifying abuse.


It is never ok to put your hands on someone else, there is no excuse.

 

[Polk]

You, among others, have said some people like the abuse. If you don't see how that's justifying it...

 

[Luddly Neddite]

This may be one of the worst threads I've ever seen. That you guys are so willing to defend abuse is horrifying.

I agree.

Its basically the old attitude of "she stays so she deserves it".

I don't blame law enforcement for not getting involved.

So, cops should pick and choose which crimes they report to? Assault is a crime. Period.

Guns get taken away from women. Look at the slideshow I linked. That guy would have no trouble taking a gun away from her.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

When women do use violence against an abuser it is after many years of abuse and these women recognize that for whatever reason they will never leave him.

Francine Hughes is one of the more well known of abuse victims. She set fire to her sleeping husband after years of abuse. He was killed, the house burned to the ground, and she became famous for the burning bed.

Before Mrs. Hughes set her fire, she got dressed, dressed the children, put them in the car and went back in to set the fire. She could have gotten in the car and driven off. She didn't. After years of working with abused women and having abused women as divorce clients, working with counseling centers for abused women, it is clear the reason why Hughes killed her husband is because she knew she would never, could never, leave him.

In the past, women who killed their abusers usually got life in prison while men convicted of killing their female partner (wife, etc) got an average of 7 years in prison.

 

[martybegan]

This may be one of the worst threads I've ever seen. That you guys are so willing to defend abuse is horrifying.

I agree.

Its basically the old attitude of "she stays so she deserves it".

I don't blame law enforcement for not getting involved.

So, cops should pick and choose which crimes they report to? Assault is a crime. Period.

Guns get taken away from women. Look at the slideshow I linked. That guy would have no trouble taking a gun away from her.

So its better they get their asses kicked repeatetly then to at least have a chance to plug the bastard and end it once and for all?

 

[martybegan]

When women do use violence against an abuser it is after many years of abuse and these women recognize that for whatever reason they will never leave him.

Francine Hughes is one of the more well known of abuse victims. She set fire to her sleeping husband after years of abuse. He was killed, the house burned to the ground, and she became famous for the burning bed.

Before Mrs. Hughes set her fire, she got dressed, dressed the children, put them in the car and went back in to set the fire. She could have gotten in the car and driven off. She didn't. After years of working with abused women and having abused women as divorce clients, working with counseling centers for abused women, it is clear the reason why Hughes killed her husband is because she knew she would never, could never, leave him.

In the past, women who killed their abusers usually got life in prison while men convicted of killing their female partner (wife, etc) got an average of 7 years in prison.

That has usually to do with the pre-meditiation, which under current law, is far worse than "heat of the moment" crimes.

The women usually fully intend to kill the assholes after years of abuse. In the other direction, its usually a beating that went too far, thus does not meet the requirement for Murder 1 (and usually not even Murder 2).

 

[AmyNation]

Some people like being a victim. I've known women personally who feed off of that type of relationship. Where they not only seek abusive men, but will do anything in their power to push a man into violence.

The women who try to push men to violence like playing the victim, but it's really about control. Ie, they are in control because they can make a man do that.

Again, I know what you're saying here, and I know I'm splitting hairs. Just think that 'like' is the wrong word.

You control your actions. This sort of argument is no different than those saying women are asking to be raped if they're wearing a short skirt.

1st, I am not speaking of all, or most abused women( just need to clarify that).


However, I believe every person should take responsibility for their own actions. This includes both the man and the woman. In the instances I am referring to, they are both 100% wrong. You can, and should, condemn the abuser, because he is responsible for his own action, and nothing justifies putting your hands on someone. However if he were to die tomorrow, that type of woman would simply move on to a different abusive relationship.

 

[ArmyCowboy]

Some people like being a victim. I've known women personally who feed off of that type of relationship. Where they not only seek abusive men, but will do anything in their power to push a man into violence.

The women who try to push men to violence like playing the victim, but it's really about control. Ie, they are in control because they can make a man do that.

Again, I know what you're saying here, and I know I'm splitting hairs. Just think that 'like' is the wrong word.

You control your actions. This sort of argument is no different than those saying women are asking to be raped if they're wearing a short skirt.

You keep saying that we're justifying or excusing the actions of the abuser, which isn't the case at all.

Attempting to understand and explain a person's actions is not the same as excusing them.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

So its better they get their asses kicked repeatetly then to at least have a chance to plug the bastard and end it once and for all?

If a victim is ambivalent about signing a complaint, why would he/she be likely to blow him/her away?

OTOH, the abuser is already committed to and comfortable with violent behavior and its a much shorter jump to pulling the trigger. That's why it happens that way rather than the abuser being killed.

When women do use violence against an abuser it is after many years of abuse and these women recognize that for whatever reason they will never leave him.

Francine Hughes is one of the more well known of abuse victims. She set fire to her sleeping husband after years of abuse. He was killed, the house burned to the ground, and she became famous for the burning bed.

Before Mrs. Hughes set her fire, she got dressed, dressed the children, put them in the car and went back in to set the fire. She could have gotten in the car and driven off. She didn't. After years of working with abused women and having abused women as divorce clients, working with counseling centers for abused women, it is clear the reason why Hughes killed her husband is because she knew she would never, could never, leave him.

In the past, women who killed their abusers usually got life in prison while men convicted of killing their female partner (wife, etc) got an average of 7 years in prison.

That has usually to do with the pre-meditiation, which under current law, is far worse than "heat of the moment" crimes.

The women usually fully intend to kill the assholes after years of abuse. In the other direction, its usually a beating that went too far, thus does not meet the requirement for Murder 1 (and usually not even Murder 2).

So, serial beatings are not "pre-meditation"??

And, murder is a "beating that went too far"??

gawd.

 

[Katzndogz]

Women in abusive relationships never make a mistake and accidentally get stuck with an abuser. They are in one abusive relationship after another.

 

[Defiant1]

Ok, I've read what they are attempting to do.

N.H. bill would reduce simple assault from misdemeanor to violation in some cases | Concord Monitor

I can see both sides of the argument. You can serve up to a year in jail for simple physical contact that results in no harm to another person. So, in the article the example they give is tapping (I assume in anger) a person on the shoulder, and now you're facing jail time.

However, I don't agree in reducing simple assault(which is physical contact that results in no harm to another person) to a violation only. Just like a year in jail is not a valid punishment for tapping someone on the shoulder, I can see many instances where a violation would not be a valid punishment for, say throwing someone around, shoving, grabbing, dragging etc... Lots of contact can be violent without causing harm.

The expanded law includes hurtful language as domestic violence too.

I think I saw some cases where the man refused to talk or acknowledge his wife/partner and that was considered abuse.

These days men can't win.

 

[Katzndogz]

So its better they get their asses kicked repeatetly then to at least have a chance to plug the bastard and end it once and for all?

If a victim is ambivalent about signing a complaint, why would he/she be likely to blow him/her away?

OTOH, the abuser is already committed to and comfortable with violent behavior and its a much shorter jump to pulling the trigger. That's why it happens that way rather than the abuser being killed.

In the past, women who killed their abusers usually got life in prison while men convicted of killing their female partner (wife, etc) got an average of 7 years in prison.

That has usually to do with the pre-meditiation, which under current law, is far worse than "heat of the moment" crimes.

The women usually fully intend to kill the assholes after years of abuse. In the other direction, its usually a beating that went too far, thus does not meet the requirement for Murder 1 (and usually not even Murder 2).

So, serial beatings are not "pre-meditation"??

And, murder is a "beating that went too far"??

gawd.

That's why rough sex is a defense to murder. S&M relationships sometimes end in murder, or at least serious injury. I recall one case, the victim was beaten unconscious and left with a concussion and perhaps permanent injury. In an odd twist the woman was the sadist and her husband the masochist. She beat him with a telephone receiver, back when telephones had receivers.

 

[ArmyCowboy]

Ok, I've read what they are attempting to do.

N.H. bill would reduce simple assault from misdemeanor to violation in some cases | Concord Monitor

I can see both sides of the argument. You can serve up to a year in jail for simple physical contact that results in no harm to another person. So, in the article the example they give is tapping (I assume in anger) a person on the shoulder, and now you're facing jail time.

However, I don't agree in reducing simple assault(which is physical contact that results in no harm to another person) to a violation only. Just like a year in jail is not a valid punishment for tapping someone on the shoulder, I can see many instances where a violation would not be a valid punishment for, say throwing someone around, shoving, grabbing, dragging etc... Lots of contact can be violent without causing harm.

The expanded law includes hurtful language as domestic violence too.

I think I saw some cases where the man refused to talk or acknowledge his wife/partner and that was considered abuse.

These days men can't win.

Seriously?

You're trying to equate physical abuse with not talking to a spouse?

Really?

 

[martybegan]

So its better they get their asses kicked repeatetly then to at least have a chance to plug the bastard and end it once and for all?

If a victim is ambivalent about signing a complaint, why would he/she be likely to blow him/her away?

OTOH, the abuser is already committed to and comfortable with violent behavior and its a much shorter jump to pulling the trigger. That's why it happens that way rather than the abuser being killed.

In the past, women who killed their abusers usually got life in prison while men convicted of killing their female partner (wife, etc) got an average of 7 years in prison.

That has usually to do with the pre-meditiation, which under current law, is far worse than "heat of the moment" crimes.

The women usually fully intend to kill the assholes after years of abuse. In the other direction, its usually a beating that went too far, thus does not meet the requirement for Murder 1 (and usually not even Murder 2).

So, serial beatings are not "pre-meditation"??

And, murder is a "beating that went too far"??

gawd.

Legally, thats the way it is. Unless the beating was intended as a murder before it happened, its not murder one. If its a beating specifcally meant to kill, or a shooting specifically meant to kill in "the heat of the moment" that would be murder 2.

The intent does matter when it comes to the law, you may not like it, but it does.

In the "Revenge" cases, there is usually tons of pre-meditation, exampled by the prepping of the children as an example. The only purpose is to kill the asshole.

That being said I shed not one tear for the dickbag getting shot in his sleep, but legally one is worse than the other.

 

[Ernie S.]

No one is defending abuse. However I don't subscribe to the notion that every women who stays in an abusive relationship is an innocent victim, and that every man who hits is a monster.

Life is more complicated than that.

Back in '86, I believe, Connecticut passed a law that if police were called to a domestic abuse situation, the offender was going to jail; no ifs ands or buts. My wife had filed for divorce, but seeing she was not working and I was responsible for a mortgage, bills and 4 kids, I refused to leave.
So October 1st rolls around and when I got home from work, the wife started picking. Normally, my supper plate was in the microwave waiting for me, but this day, nothing.
I fixed myself some food while she yelled and swore at me, trying to provoke me.
I sat down at the counter on a bar stool to eat and she came up behind me and yanked me to the floor. I got up, facing her and she tagged me good on the chin. I informed her that that was not such a smart idea. Her response was to punch me again. I told her that if she tried that again, the outcome might be bleak. BAM again she hits me. I calmly informed her that she was out of chances and that I WOULD hurt her if she tried again.
Well, she rared back and let loose. I caught her by the arm and simply squeezed until she dropped to her knees. She called the cops and I was arrested for assault.
In court, I explained the situation and the charges were dropped after I saw a court approved psychologist for an anger management course.
After I explained the situation to the psychologist, he signed me off and told me to hold the papers for a month so the state though I completed the course.

Yes, sometimes life is more complicated than that.

 

[Katzndogz]

The expanded law includes hurtful language as domestic violence too.

I think I saw some cases where the man refused to talk or acknowledge his wife/partner and that was considered abuse.

These days men can't win.

Seriously?

You're trying to equate physical abuse with not talking to a spouse?

Really?

Depending on who you talk to yes, the silent treatment IS abuse. I think it's covered under the expanded VAWA as well.

Silencing The Silent Treatment | The Current Conscience

Abusive Relationships: Silent Treatment, withdrawal, silent treatment

The Silent Treatment - A severe form of abuse

You were saying......

 

[AmyNation]

No one is defending abuse. However I don't subscribe to the notion that every women who stays in an abusive relationship is an innocent victim, and that every man who hits is a monster.

Life is more complicated than that.

Back in '86, I believe, Connecticut passed a law that if police were called to a domestic abuse situation, the offender was going to jail; no ifs ands or buts. My wife had filed for divorce, but seeing she was not working and I was responsible for a mortgage, bills and 4 kids, I refused to leave.
So October 1st rolls around and when I got home from work, the wife started picking. Normally, my supper plate was in the microwave waiting for me, but this day, nothing.
I fixed myself some food while she yelled and swore at me, trying to provoke me.
I sat down at the counter on a bar stool to eat and she came up behind me and yanked me to the floor. I got up, facing her and she tagged me good on the chin. I informed her that that was not such a smart idea. Her response was to punch me again. I told her that if she tried that again, the outcome might be bleak. BAM again she hits me. I calmly informed her that she was out of chances and that I WOULD hurt her if she tried again.
Well, she rared back and let loose. I caught her by the arm and simply squeezed until she dropped to her knees. She called the cops and I was arrested for assault.
In court, I explained the situation and the charges were dropped after I saw a court approved psychologist for an anger management course.
After I explained the situation to the psychologist, he signed me off and told me to hold the papers for a month so the state though I completed the course.

Yes, sometimes life is more complicated than that.

It's a pendulum issue. It used to be that women were always blamed and there was little help for an abused wife, that was very wrong and as a society we worked to combat that.

Now men are always in the wrong and the idea of critizing a woman is abhorrent. Hoepfully we are moving to a more balanced approach that understand that not every situation is black and white.