Afghan Newlyweds Stoned To Death

[Grace]

Confusing more than non exciting.
I have no religion, myself. But if I did, it would be a combo of religions that tickles my own ear.

My response is clear as mud, isnt it?

 

[daveman]

What happened to this couple was fucking terrible, how could so called religious people do this? fucking sick.

Call me callous but I have no sympathy for people who betray the trust of their spouses, particularly when they're aware of what such a betrayal entails.

The couple knowingly broke the laws of their country.

As criminals they had to pay the price for their crime.

As you can see from the video, the average Afghans were happy to carry out the execution.

Their country, their laws; who are we to say it is wrong?

You guys need to set your calendars ahead about 14 centuries. Civilized nations don't go for such barbarity.

 

[Sunni Man]

You guys need to set your calendars ahead about 14 centuries. Civilized nations don't go for such barbarity.

Like how a so called "civilized Western nation" dropped two atomic bombs on two cities full of civilians?

Or do you mean like how the "civilized European nations" murdered and slaughtered tens of millions of civilians during WWII ??

 

[Dr Grump]

You guys need to set your calendars ahead about 14 centuries. Civilized nations don't go for such barbarity.

Like how a so called "civilized Western nation" dropped two atomic bombs on two cities full of civilians?

Or do you mean like how the "civilized European nations" murdered and slaughtered tens of millions of civilians during WWII ??

Old news and we have learned from those mistakes and moved on. When do you think Islam will step out of its misogynistic hell hole and into the 21st century?

If you want to defend a religion or culture which is trapped in the 8th century, then have at it...but please, don't try and pull the wool over our eyes.

All religions suck, but Islam is at the head of the table as being the suckiest of the big ones (Scientology would probably be the worst, but I find it hard to think of it as a religion - more of a science fiction novel come to life)....

 

[Grace]

You guys need to set your calendars ahead about 14 centuries. Civilized nations don't go for such barbarity.

Like how a so called "civilized Western nation" dropped two atomic bombs on two cities full of civilians?

Or do you mean like how the "civilized European nations" murdered and slaughtered tens of millions of civilians during WWII ??

Sorry, but that dog doesn't hunt. Give it another attempt if you care to.
Drawing and quartering, human sacrifice, the torture chambers of the Spanish Inquisition, the arenas in Rome...all of that was barbaric. So is stoning people. Which is being done today, tomorrow, the next day.

 

[Kalam]

Let me be clear then Kalam. When I say Muslim, I mean a true believer, and one who knows and practices their belief.

I have, heretofore said to you that your mind matters to me. Early on when I first came here and we were discussing the Chechen conflict. I said this because I believe you. When I ask you questions of the Koran that I personally know, you answer them all correctly.

What I see as minimization, etc. is dis-convergent culture.

Let me make an example. A given:

The methods of punishment and crime meted out by one culture is different than another culture. ​

Now you understand the effect on the West by a certain act as you previously said. However, you don't really understand why it is so abhorrent or important (so as to degree) to that other culture as you see the other culture doing things that your culture finds abhorrent and which that other culture espouses. Yes?

To a certain extent. But I am a Westerner by nationality and was raised in an environment that was almost completely secular, so my own set of morals was very "Western" and certain old habits and beliefs die hard.

As far as adultery is concerned, I do think I understand the reasons behind our difference in belief and it has to do with the importance and nature of the institution of marriage. In Islam, marriage is an important part of life that nearly everyone is expected to experience. Its importance as I understand it is threefold. The first two reasons are physical: it's the only permissible means through which people can act on their natural sexual urges and the only permissible means through which they may procreate. Its main significance, however, is spiritual and marriage is described as half of a person's deen (way of life or religion.) The other half is fear of God, which is some indication of how important marriage must be. Love and compassion between spouses and the peace of mind it inspires is also described as a sign of God in 30:21.

When a person commits adultery in Islam, they desecrate an institution that God himself invokes as a sign of His existence, show that the Islamic way of life is unimportant to them, and betray the love that their partner has invested into the relationship. That is why adultery is so serious and has such enormous consequences. In many Islamic cultures the institution of marriage was also significant historically as a sign of ties between different families.

In the secular West, marriage is usually something that occurs after a person is already experienced in matters of love (both emotional and sexual.) Adolescence and early adulthood are times for experimentation and spending time in relationships with different people before meeting the right person and "settling down." The culture has been sexualized to a far greater extent and sex in general is typically seen as a good thing regardless of marital status. If after finally getting married a person commits adultery, they still betray their partner's love. However, the act doesn't carry the same religious significance and isn't viewed as being nearly as serious, although the adulterer suffers a tarnished reputation. Many marriages even continue in spite of adulterous incidents. Another key difference is that the meaning of "marriage" in Islam is static while in the West it's gone from signifying polygyny/heterosexual monogamy to strictly heterosexual monogamy to heterosexual and homosexual monogamy.

So when Westerners see Muslims executing people for something they don't think is very serious, the obvious conclusion is that Muslims are strict reactionaries who react to minor crimes with disproportionate harshness. This type of harshness is viewed as an outdated practice (as that's precisely what it has become in Western history) and it is entirely inconsistent with Western notions of modernity and acting civilized.

Put a small stone in your left hand and a large rock in your right hand. Do this when standing on a wooden floor. Holding both hands out, let both the rock and stone fall. One effects more damage than the other. Yes?

Holding the hands out and dropping the stone/rock is an event. So is stoning a man and a woman for adultery an event. Yes?

To your mind, it's appropriate when tied to the true word of Islam. Your stone is a tiny pebble of impact.

To the mind of the Western Philosophy, this act is the rock's impact.

Both the Western Philosophy and Islam have their own pebbles, stones and rocks of dis-convergent culture.

It's not a misconception of culture, it's a dis-convergence of culture. Your words show me this, and I tie them to the understanding I have of Islam, often given to me by true practicing and knowledgeable Muslims of which you are one.

So the act of the OP is tied to your view of the effect on a true believer.

It's not really minimization as it is the true effect on you. You are not effecting it in contempt or arrogance. It simply does not effect you in the same way it effects many of those in the Western culture.

I agree completely.

 

[Grace]

That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?

 

[Kalam]

Confusing more than non exciting.

That was my second guess.

I should have just said that I got to where I am now through my own study of philosophy and different religious beliefs.

I have no religion, myself. But if I did, it would be a combo of religions that tickles my own ear.

My response is clear as mud, isnt it?

Clear enough for me. I can respect that even though I disagree with it.

 

[Sunni Man]

That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?

No harshness was involved.

And both the man and the woman were treated equally under the law.

 

[Kalam]

That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?

Sometimes yes, though that shouldn't be the case. The misogyny is cultural, though, and penalties in Islamic law are supposed to be applied to men and women equally.

 

[Dr Grump]

So when Westerners see Muslims executing people for something they don't think is very serious, the obvious conclusion is that Muslims are strict reactionaries who react to minor crimes with disproportionate harshness. This type of harshness is viewed as an outdated practice (as that's precisely what it has become in Western history) and it is entirely inconsistent with Western notions of modernity and acting civilized.

I also think that some Westerners (me included) feel that a lot of these people carrying out these acts of barbarity are uneducated, which is a result of maniuplation by both Islamic govts and Imans. Keeping people ignorant and unenlightened behooves both. It gives the govt and Imans power, not only due to their ability to have influence due to their station in life, but also due to their education.

I absolutely believe that the people in charge of govts in the Muslim world are of the "do as we say, not as we do" ilk.

Get people with Islam as the major religion educated, and I would suggest a lot of these barbaric practices would stop.

A lot of the conservatives on this board - especially the ignorant - find it hard to believe there was a time when the arab world was at the centre of scientific and mathematical learning. It has been stuck in the dark ages for a very long time...mainly due to Islam and its interpretation of it by Imans.

 

[uscitizen]

Confusing more than non exciting.
I have no religion, myself. But if I did, it would be a combo of religions that tickles my own ear.

My response is clear as mud, isnt it?

Does to me.
Follow your own nose vs the pack?

 

[uscitizen]

So when Westerners see Muslims executing people for something they don't think is very serious, the obvious conclusion is that Muslims are strict reactionaries who react to minor crimes with disproportionate harshness. This type of harshness is viewed as an outdated practice (as that's precisely what it has become in Western history) and it is entirely inconsistent with Western notions of modernity and acting civilized.

I also think that some Westerners (me included) feel that a lot of these people carrying out these acts of barbarity are uneducated, which is a result of maniuplation by both Islamic govts and Imans. Keeping people ignorant and unenlightened behooves both. It gives the govt and Imans power, not only due to their ability to have influence due to their station in life, but also due to their education.

I absolutely believe that the people in charge of govts in the Muslim world are of the "do as we say, not as we do" ilk.

Get people with Islam as the major religion educated, and I would suggest a lot of these barbaric practices would stop.

A lot of the conservatives on this board - especially the ignorant - find it hard to believe there was a time when the arab world was at the centre of scientific and mathematical learning. It has been stuck in the dark ages for a very long time...mainly due to Islam and its interpretation of it by Imans.

Christianity has its times as well in holding back the progress of learning and society.
Didn't someone have to recant his observations about the solar system or be imprisoned or die?

 

[Intense]

So when Westerners see Muslims executing people for something they don't think is very serious, the obvious conclusion is that Muslims are strict reactionaries who react to minor crimes with disproportionate harshness. This type of harshness is viewed as an outdated practice (as that's precisely what it has become in Western history) and it is entirely inconsistent with Western notions of modernity and acting civilized.

I also think that some Westerners (me included) feel that a lot of these people carrying out these acts of barbarity are uneducated, which is a result of maniuplation by both Islamic govts and Imans. Keeping people ignorant and unenlightened behooves both. It gives the govt and Imans power, not only due to their ability to have influence due to their station in life, but also due to their education.

I absolutely believe that the people in charge of govts in the Muslim world are of the "do as we say, not as we do" ilk.

Get people with Islam as the major religion educated, and I would suggest a lot of these barbaric practices would stop.

A lot of the conservatives on this board - especially the ignorant - find it hard to believe there was a time when the arab world was at the centre of scientific and mathematical learning. It has been stuck in the dark ages for a very long time...mainly due to Islam and its interpretation of it by Imans.

Christianity has its times as well in holding back the progress of learning and society.
Didn't someone have to recant his observations about the solar system or be imprisoned or die?

Maybe you could find a more current example before we return you to the Pound?

 

[Grace]

That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?

Sometimes yes, though that shouldn't be the case. The misogyny is cultural, though, and penalties in Islamic law are supposed to be applied to men and women equally.

So...you are a westerner? And you studied to find a religion that you could connect to, correct? And that religion that you found most compatible to you was Islam?

 

[Ropey]

To a certain extent. But I am a Westerner by nationality and was raised in an environment that was almost completely secular, so my own set of morals was very "Western" and certain old habits and beliefs die hard.

So when Westerners see Muslims executing people for something they don't think is very serious, the obvious conclusion is that Muslims are strict reactionaries who react to minor crimes with disproportionate harshness. This type of harshness is viewed as an outdated practice (as that's precisely what it has become in Western history) and it is entirely inconsistent with Western notions of modernity and acting civilized.

I did not say you were a born Muslim. I said you were, to my view, a true believer of Islam and honest when it comes to Islam. It is likely why you understand the Wests dislikes and fears of Islam. Still, you show more confusion than one might think for a convert. I would think you would well know and not be confused over the impact.

But then let's face it, if hatred of Israel and Zionism can be fronted and foisted by such converts as you and Sunni Man, then it does not bode well. But who knows the tides and sands? Even so, any true believer of Judaism is expected to know and follow many laws as well. The highly orthodox choose a very strict path.

The difference is allowance of personal choice. It is a major divergence, but there are many. Not simply financially as some will point out, but culturally in aspects of choices. I could give many examples. I will simply give one.

We have homosexual and transvestite Rabbis.

The strictness in Islam is there and can't be hidden Kalam. Not even minimized because we are already maximizing it since it is our rock. There is no use trying to make your pebble smaller. It will not work as this is is rooted in the major difference between Islam, Judaism and Christianity. It is choice where the divergence is shown to nexus.

Choice. The tree of life and knowledge. The Apple. Choice.

Islam is harsh to Western standards. Very harsh. Then there's the financial rock Kalam. There's many different rocks.

 

[uscitizen]

I also think that some Westerners (me included) feel that a lot of these people carrying out these acts of barbarity are uneducated, which is a result of maniuplation by both Islamic govts and Imans. Keeping people ignorant and unenlightened behooves both. It gives the govt and Imans power, not only due to their ability to have influence due to their station in life, but also due to their education.

I absolutely believe that the people in charge of govts in the Muslim world are of the "do as we say, not as we do" ilk.

Get people with Islam as the major religion educated, and I would suggest a lot of these barbaric practices would stop.

A lot of the conservatives on this board - especially the ignorant - find it hard to believe there was a time when the arab world was at the centre of scientific and mathematical learning. It has been stuck in the dark ages for a very long time...mainly due to Islam and its interpretation of it by Imans.

Christianity has its times as well in holding back the progress of learning and society.
Didn't someone have to recant his observations about the solar system or be imprisoned or die?

Maybe you could find a more current example before we return you to the Pound?

Ahh I heard the Humane society was suing the local animal shelter for inhumane treatment of their animals.
They keep Rush and such playing on talk radio in the animal area.

 

[Grace]

That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?

No harshness was involved.

And both the man and the woman were treated equally under the law.

I apologize in advance...but...bullshit. The majority of stonings are women. And they are stoned because they have been accused of ...whatever. And the accusers were men...either husbands or boyfriends or some guy that had other agendas and had to get rid of the current wife to marry the next one or some such crap.

Your laws were written by man, for MAN.

 

[uscitizen]

That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?

No harshness was involved.

And both the man and the woman were treated equally under the law.

I apologize in advance...but...bullshit. The majority of stonings are women. And they are stoned because they have been accused of ...whatever. And the accusers were men...either husbands or boyfriends or some guy that had other agendas and had to get rid of the current wife to marry the next one or some such crap.

Your laws were written by man, for MAN.

Pretty much and not all that different from the old testament rules regarding women.
I recall something about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". But that was the new testament.

 

[Grace]

Sunni, Ya know....I believe in karma. Some day, I believe it will bite ya on the ass. Watch overhead rocks when traveling. Once you get a barrage of them smacking you on the head, you might realize just how painful it is. Or...even better....your next life won't be in paradise. I hear gods and goddesses have a sense of humor. You will come back as a woman, foisted off on a man just like you. And guess what? He will want to marry someone younger so....oops...ya gotta go. I'm betting you know how that will go.

This subject is making me pissy. So....I will just nod my head now and then with the Thanks button.