Almost half of Americans work in low paid jobs

[Markle]

Well, I'm referring more generally.


But regardless of your specific status.... if I can look around and see dozens of examples of people who come here from other countries and succeed..... I simply do not buy the idea that Americans can't.

I'm sorry.... it just isn't true. Phil Robertson, was a drunk working at a bar. He started whittling duck callers, and now is a wealthy business owner.

Was it easy? Of course not. He was driving around in his pickup, trying to sell these things to stores, and they would laugh at his face, and walk him to the door.

But he kept at it, until he became a success.

That's the reality.

The solution to our problems is people getting up off the ground, and working towards success. Not somehow trying to prevent others from being successful, in hopes it will make you more successful.

You seem to be a bit misinformed about Phil Robertson.

College and football

Robertson throws against the Southeastern Louisiana Lions.
As an athlete in high school, Robertson was all-state in football, baseball, and track, which afforded him the opportunity to attend Louisiana Tech in Ruston on a football scholarship in the late 1960s.[10] At Tech, he played first-string quarterback for the Bulldogs, ahead of Pro Football Hall of Famer Terry Bradshaw,[11][12] the first overall pick in the 1970 NFL Draft. When he arrived at Tech in 1966, Bradshaw caused a media frenzy on account of his reputation of being a football sensation from nearby Shreveport.[13][14] Robertson was a year ahead of Bradshaw, and was the starter for two seasons in 1966 and 1967, and chose not to play in 1968.[15]

In his time at Louisiana Tech, Robertson completed 179 of 411 passing attempts for 2,237 yards. He threw 12 touchdowns, but had 34 interceptions.[10] It was thought Robertson had the potential for a pro career, but Robertson was more interested in hunting.[10] Bradshaw once remarked about Robertson's love of hunting, saying "... Phil Robertson, loved hunting more than he loved football. He'd come to practice directly from the woods, squirrel tails hanging out of his pockets, duck feathers on his clothes. Clearly he was a fine shot, so no one complained too much."[16]

When Paul Harvey approached Robertson with a recruitment to play professionally for the Washington Redskins, he declined because football conflicted with his hunting. Additionally, football was only about holding up his scholarship to him, while Bradshaw practically lived and breathed the sport.[14] Robertson put it this way: "Terry went for the bucks, and I chased after the ducks."[10]

Robertson later received a bachelor's degree in physical education and a master's in education.[17]

Career
Early career
Robertson initially spent several years teaching[17] before becoming a commercial fisherman. In the 1970s, his marriage became strained. Robertson was running a bar in 1975.[18][19]

Duck Commander
As an avid duck hunter, Robertson was dissatisfied with the condition of duck calls. He began to experiment with making a call that would produce the exact sound of a duck. He invented his first Duck Commander call in 1972. He received a patent for this call and the Duck Commander Company was incorporated in 1973.[17] Today, the company of Duck Commander is a multimillion-dollar business, headed by his son, Willie Robertson.

 

[francoHFW]

Any argument at all? Or just the usual idiocy? So who's bringing these illegals here LOL? Do you have a Social Security card that cannot be faked in your imaginary America? What the hell are you babbling about LOL?

Who is bringing the illegals here?

Business owners that are will to pay them when they get here

The key words are “when they get here”

Business owners do not control the border that illegal aliens pass through

They just give them the reason to come...take away that reason would be a great start

I doubt it.

I know illegals that run a business repairing cars. You are not going to top that.

I know another group that has a car wash.

Another shingles roofs.

All cash, all illegals.

There are numerous ways illegals can come and make money, without having to file an I-9.

The solution is control the border, and enforce immigration law.

the wall will stop illegals for about 3 seconds. Just throw a rope over the top and climb. See the video viral. The only solution is a good ID card that can't be faked like other countries have and it works. The wall is stupid and won't work. The last time we checked, 94% of illegal adult males work, 65% pay taxes, and 35% own homes. Thanks GOP for this scam forever.

 

[francoHFW]

Well, I'm referring more generally.


But regardless of your specific status.... if I can look around and see dozens of examples of people who come here from other countries and succeed..... I simply do not buy the idea that Americans can't.

I'm sorry.... it just isn't true. Phil Robertson, was a drunk working at a bar. He started whittling duck callers, and now is a wealthy business owner.

Was it easy? Of course not. He was driving around in his pickup, trying to sell these things to stores, and they would laugh at his face, and walk him to the door.

But he kept at it, until he became a success.

That's the reality.

The solution to our problems is people getting up off the ground, and working towards success. Not somehow trying to prevent others from being successful, in hopes it will make you more successful.

You seem to be a bit misinformed about Phil Robertson.

College and football

Robertson throws against the Southeastern Louisiana Lions.
As an athlete in high school, Robertson was all-state in football, baseball, and track, which afforded him the opportunity to attend Louisiana Tech in Ruston on a football scholarship in the late 1960s.[10] At Tech, he played first-string quarterback for the Bulldogs, ahead of Pro Football Hall of Famer Terry Bradshaw,[11][12] the first overall pick in the 1970 NFL Draft. When he arrived at Tech in 1966, Bradshaw caused a media frenzy on account of his reputation of being a football sensation from nearby Shreveport.[13][14] Robertson was a year ahead of Bradshaw, and was the starter for two seasons in 1966 and 1967, and chose not to play in 1968.[15]

In his time at Louisiana Tech, Robertson completed 179 of 411 passing attempts for 2,237 yards. He threw 12 touchdowns, but had 34 interceptions.[10] It was thought Robertson had the potential for a pro career, but Robertson was more interested in hunting.[10] Bradshaw once remarked about Robertson's love of hunting, saying "... Phil Robertson, loved hunting more than he loved football. He'd come to practice directly from the woods, squirrel tails hanging out of his pockets, duck feathers on his clothes. Clearly he was a fine shot, so no one complained too much."[16]

When Paul Harvey approached Robertson with a recruitment to play professionally for the Washington Redskins, he declined because football conflicted with his hunting. Additionally, football was only about holding up his scholarship to him, while Bradshaw practically lived and breathed the sport.[14] Robertson put it this way: "Terry went for the bucks, and I chased after the ducks."[10]

Robertson later received a bachelor's degree in physical education and a master's in education.[17]

Career
Early career
Robertson initially spent several years teaching[17] before becoming a commercial fisherman. In the 1970s, his marriage became strained. Robertson was running a bar in 1975.[18][19]

Duck Commander
As an avid duck hunter, Robertson was dissatisfied with the condition of duck calls. He began to experiment with making a call that would produce the exact sound of a duck. He invented his first Duck Commander call in 1972. He received a patent for this call and the Duck Commander Company was incorporated in 1973.[17] Today, the company of Duck Commander is a multimillion-dollar business, headed by his son, Willie Robertson.

Those are crappy quarterback stats and he ran a bar before he became Mr duck call. You're both right.

 

[Markle]

Well, I'm referring more generally.


But regardless of your specific status.... if I can look around and see dozens of examples of people who come here from other countries and succeed..... I simply do not buy the idea that Americans can't.

I'm sorry.... it just isn't true. Phil Robertson, was a drunk working at a bar. He started whittling duck callers, and now is a wealthy business owner.

Was it easy? Of course not. He was driving around in his pickup, trying to sell these things to stores, and they would laugh at his face, and walk him to the door.

But he kept at it, until he became a success.

That's the reality.

The solution to our problems is people getting up off the ground, and working towards success. Not somehow trying to prevent others from being successful, in hopes it will make you more successful.

You seem to be a bit misinformed about Phil Robertson.

College and football

Robertson throws against the Southeastern Louisiana Lions.
As an athlete in high school, Robertson was all-state in football, baseball, and track, which afforded him the opportunity to attend Louisiana Tech in Ruston on a football scholarship in the late 1960s.[10] At Tech, he played first-string quarterback for the Bulldogs, ahead of Pro Football Hall of Famer Terry Bradshaw,[11][12] the first overall pick in the 1970 NFL Draft. When he arrived at Tech in 1966, Bradshaw caused a media frenzy on account of his reputation of being a football sensation from nearby Shreveport.[13][14] Robertson was a year ahead of Bradshaw, and was the starter for two seasons in 1966 and 1967, and chose not to play in 1968.[15]

In his time at Louisiana Tech, Robertson completed 179 of 411 passing attempts for 2,237 yards. He threw 12 touchdowns, but had 34 interceptions.[10] It was thought Robertson had the potential for a pro career, but Robertson was more interested in hunting.[10] Bradshaw once remarked about Robertson's love of hunting, saying "... Phil Robertson, loved hunting more than he loved football. He'd come to practice directly from the woods, squirrel tails hanging out of his pockets, duck feathers on his clothes. Clearly he was a fine shot, so no one complained too much."[16]

When Paul Harvey approached Robertson with a recruitment to play professionally for the Washington Redskins, he declined because football conflicted with his hunting. Additionally, football was only about holding up his scholarship to him, while Bradshaw practically lived and breathed the sport.[14] Robertson put it this way: "Terry went for the bucks, and I chased after the ducks."[10]

Robertson later received a bachelor's degree in physical education and a master's in education.[17]

Career
Early career
Robertson initially spent several years teaching[17] before becoming a commercial fisherman. In the 1970s, his marriage became strained. Robertson was running a bar in 1975.[18][19]

Duck Commander
As an avid duck hunter, Robertson was dissatisfied with the condition of duck calls. He began to experiment with making a call that would produce the exact sound of a duck. He invented his first Duck Commander call in 1972. He received a patent for this call and the Duck Commander Company was incorporated in 1973.[17] Today, the company of Duck Commander is a multimillion-dollar business, headed by his son, Willie Robertson.

Those are crappy quarterback stats and he ran a bar before he became Mr duck call. You're both right.

May God bless you. I've never met anyone so bitter and sad as you.

I hope you get help.

 

[francoHFW]

Well, I'm referring more generally.


But regardless of your specific status.... if I can look around and see dozens of examples of people who come here from other countries and succeed..... I simply do not buy the idea that Americans can't.

I'm sorry.... it just isn't true. Phil Robertson, was a drunk working at a bar. He started whittling duck callers, and now is a wealthy business owner.

Was it easy? Of course not. He was driving around in his pickup, trying to sell these things to stores, and they would laugh at his face, and walk him to the door.

But he kept at it, until he became a success.

That's the reality.

The solution to our problems is people getting up off the ground, and working towards success. Not somehow trying to prevent others from being successful, in hopes it will make you more successful.

You seem to be a bit misinformed about Phil Robertson.

College and football

Robertson throws against the Southeastern Louisiana Lions.
As an athlete in high school, Robertson was all-state in football, baseball, and track, which afforded him the opportunity to attend Louisiana Tech in Ruston on a football scholarship in the late 1960s.[10] At Tech, he played first-string quarterback for the Bulldogs, ahead of Pro Football Hall of Famer Terry Bradshaw,[11][12] the first overall pick in the 1970 NFL Draft. When he arrived at Tech in 1966, Bradshaw caused a media frenzy on account of his reputation of being a football sensation from nearby Shreveport.[13][14] Robertson was a year ahead of Bradshaw, and was the starter for two seasons in 1966 and 1967, and chose not to play in 1968.[15]

In his time at Louisiana Tech, Robertson completed 179 of 411 passing attempts for 2,237 yards. He threw 12 touchdowns, but had 34 interceptions.[10] It was thought Robertson had the potential for a pro career, but Robertson was more interested in hunting.[10] Bradshaw once remarked about Robertson's love of hunting, saying "... Phil Robertson, loved hunting more than he loved football. He'd come to practice directly from the woods, squirrel tails hanging out of his pockets, duck feathers on his clothes. Clearly he was a fine shot, so no one complained too much."[16]

When Paul Harvey approached Robertson with a recruitment to play professionally for the Washington Redskins, he declined because football conflicted with his hunting. Additionally, football was only about holding up his scholarship to him, while Bradshaw practically lived and breathed the sport.[14] Robertson put it this way: "Terry went for the bucks, and I chased after the ducks."[10]

Robertson later received a bachelor's degree in physical education and a master's in education.[17]

Career
Early career
Robertson initially spent several years teaching[17] before becoming a commercial fisherman. In the 1970s, his marriage became strained. Robertson was running a bar in 1975.[18][19]

Duck Commander
As an avid duck hunter, Robertson was dissatisfied with the condition of duck calls. He began to experiment with making a call that would produce the exact sound of a duck. He invented his first Duck Commander call in 1972. He received a patent for this call and the Duck Commander Company was incorporated in 1973.[17] Today, the company of Duck Commander is a multimillion-dollar business, headed by his son, Willie Robertson.

Those are crappy quarterback stats and he ran a bar before he became Mr duck call. You're both right.

May God bless you. I've never met anyone so bitter and sad as you.

I hope you get help.

Sorry about reality, super troll. any actual argument or just b******* as always?

 

[Andylusion]

I do not yet see a connection between the two issues. One issue is trade. The other is the potential for Geo-political conflict with China.

While I don't see them as entirely mutually exclusive, I also don't see them as intertwined either.

China is going to grow whether we engage in trade with them, or not. Any country that moves to adopt more Capitalist economic policies, will grow.

Cutting off trade with China will not stop the economy from growing, now stop others from engaging with China.

One thing it might do, is make the Chinese more anti-American.

One of the things that has irritated me about Cuba, is that no matter how badly the Socialist government has decimated the Cuban economy, no matter how impoverished and hopeless the people are, the government simply blamed everything on the "American Embargo".

So no matter what happened, it wasn't their governments fault... it was the Americans fault. A line we hear from mindless left-wingers here in the US constantly.

So I am not in favor of cutting off trade in the name of hindering their government, because all it will do is strengthen their government, by allowing them to use the US as a scapegoat for everything that happens.

And the reality is, Cuba wouldn't be poor, if they engaged in Capitalism. The Embargo is just an excuse for failure, not an actual cause of it.

China is going to grow no matter what. The question is, are we going to give them excuses to blame the US for everything that happens in their country?

As for businesses exist to serve the government... I do not see that China is much different than anywhere else. I don't see that a noodle company in China, exists to serve the government. I do see that government sometimes coerces companies to operate in a favorable manor, but then we have that here in the US too.

I think free-trade is still the best way to go, even with China. The last thing I want to do, is give the Chinese people an excuse to blame the US, for their garbage governments bad policies.

China is using trade as part of a geo political war against the western democracies and non communist nations all over the world

We have never had free trade with china because individual companies cannot compete with a communist dictatorship

That makes no sense.

The way you 'wage war' with Trade, is by denying trade.

Again, the way we waged war with trade against Russia, is by imposing sanctions against Russia.... denying them trade.

You cannot 'wage a war' with trade. Trade is inherently mutually beneficial.

If it did not benefit us to have trade, we wouldn't engage in trade. The reason we trade, is because we benefit.

Again, if it was possible to wage war using trade, we don't we trade with Cuba to destroy the communist government? North Korea? Iran? Venezuela?

Lack of trade is a weapon. Trade can't be weaponized, except through clever mythology.

And as far as lack of a 'free trade'......

If China is subsidizing steel, that benefits us, and harms China.

Think about it.... China is taxes their own citizens, to pay money, so that we can buy steel at a discount.

This is effectively like you wanting to buy a car from me, and me saying I'm going to take money from my wife and daughter, so that I can sell you this $20,000 car, for $18,000... and this is going to harm you, to get a car cheaper, on the money of my wife and daughter.

The concept is insane. If the Chinese want to take their own people's money, so we can have wealth cheaper..... I say let them.

Mercantilism is a practice that has existed since the start of the Industrisl Revolution

Nations will target products produced on foreign countries and flood the market with lower priced items till the domestic manufacturer goes out of business

Even if they do so at a loss

Because of that tariffs were invented to protect domestic producers

Mercantilism does not exist anymore.

Originally Mercantilism worked because after selling goods to another country, say England, they would take those pound notes, and convert them into Gold, which was the default backing of currency.

Running that system, England would have their gold reserves depleted, and France would have their reserves filled. This actually happened during the years between world war 1 and 2.

However, that system doesn't work now that we have fiat money. China can't do anything with the US dollars it collects, except spend them in the US.

So that really isn't a concern.

As far as shutting down local business with predatory pricing....

Again... if you want to sell stuff to me at a loss.... I think that's great.

Further, remember that all those things we get, that they are selling at a loss... build our economy. The only way you can see it is as a loss to our economy, is if you look exclusively at steel mills only. But what you are ignoring is all the companies that are growing and employing more people, and producing more goods, because steel is cheap.

However, it isn't even true though.

View attachment 294026

We get more steel from Russia than we do China.

So how can we blame china for job loss in the US? We can't logically. It's simply that we hear things, and want someone to blame, and China is a good target for some reason. The reality is, we benefit just as much from China, as they do from us.

Mercantilism is a national economic policy that is designed to maximize the exports, and minimize the imports, of a nation. These policies aim to reduce a possible current account deficit or reach a current account surplus. Mercantilism includes a national economic policy aimed at accumulating monetary reserves through a positive balance of trade, especially of finished goods. Historically, such policies frequently led to war and also motivated colonial expansion. Mercantilist theory varies in sophistication from one writer to another and has evolved over time

Correct

Modern mercantilism as practiced by china seeks to build the chinese economy at the expense of other nations, particularly the US

The chinese are willing to accept short-term loss for long-term gain

The gain for the chinese dictatorship is employment for their citizens albeit at extremely low wages and often bad working conditions bordering on slavery

And that is the “free market” that globalists expect American workers to compete against

As I said, it is impossible to engage in trade, at anyone's expense. If I am not better off, after doing a trade of any kind, then I wouldn't do the trade.

If I am worse off after buying a car from you, I won't buy a car from you. It doesn't matter if you are in Ohio, Kentucky, Canada, or China.

You China cannot engage in trade at someone's expense. It's not possible.

Moreover, as I stated before, you can't maximize exports, while minimizing imports. That system only worked when you had a commodity backed currency, like Gold. Then you can export products for British pounds for example, and then instead of buying anything, you simply covert the pounds into gold, which depletes the reserves of Britain, while building up your own.

This is impossible with fiat currency. To do that means you are collecting bits of paper, in exchange for goods. The entire country would go bankrupt doing that, because the only value a US Dollar bill has, is the value of what you can exchange it for.

Can they buy stuff from Russia with US Dollars? No. Japan? England? Australia? No. The only place that US Dollars can be exchanged, is in the US or other territories we have heavy influence over, and even then, those people will ultimately bring those dollars back to the US.

So whether they buy from Canada, and the Canadians buy from the US... it doesn't matter. All those US Dollars eventually all come back to the US.

Lastly, American workers can easily compete against the Chinese market, and have for decades. In fact there are many such markets that the US has competed against. The Japanese in the 80s. The Indians. Mexico even. The US economy has always competed very well with emerging markets.

 

[Andylusion]

Right, and if we are talking about the effects of minimum wage overall, it would effect every single employee, at every step in the process. The guy driving the forklift getting pallets off the truck, is going to get paid more if the minimum wage goes up.

I thought we were talking about what it would cost to replace illegal alien fruit pickers who make very low wages with American citizens who will not work that cheap

It may be that Americans will not do those jobs at any price thanks to welfare making too many low income people allergic to hard physical labor

If so we can have a guest workers program where MEN and only men are allowed in the US to work on farms

Then in that case, it would drastically increase prices. No matter how crappy the job, there is an American willing to do that job at some price point. The question is how high is that price point?

And eventually if the price is high enough, it will end up automated.

But in labor intensive production, if you replace those immigrants with Americans, the price will go up drastically.

I dont mind paying more for labor in a free market if the workers are Americans

But you do mind paying more. Everyone does. Are you really trying to say that you would buy the exact same amount of any given good or service, if the price was doubled? Of course not. That's not even logically possible, as the amount of money you have doesn't magically double with the price of the goods.

I don't go to Chipotle anymore, because now that is $7 for a cheap burrito, it's not worth it.

Increasing price always has a negative effect on people purchasing. It's a bit ridiculous to claim otherwise.

We adjust

The cost of living in california or new york city is much higher than in most areas of the Sunbelt

The cost of living in America is much higher than in central America

If I know that the free market is delivering the lowest possible price then that is the price I am willing to pay

Well yes, we adjust by not buying goods and services.

That's kind of an odd statement to say, that as long as you know the free-market is providing the lowest possible wage, then you are willing to pay it.

Really? So if the lowest price was $30 bucks for a burrito you would pay it? No. Of course not.

I was reading about how (if I remember right) in Denmark, no one anywhere, hires someone to paint a house. There is no house painting services in the whole country.

Why? Because due to taxes and wage laws, it would cost you the customer $15, for $1 dollars worth of painting. A $100 job, would end up costing you $1,500.

The result is, either they hire people under the table, or everyone paints their house themselves.

Just because it's the lowest price the free market can provide, doesn't mean everyone is willing to pay it. Of course not. That is rather ridiculous.

 

[Andylusion]

I don't have any proof, and typically trying to call the police on what is a legal customer, is a great way to get fired.

If I had a clear proof of illegal activity, I most certainly would contact authorities.

So, you feel good about making such accusations without proof?

I didn't obviously accuse them directly. But everyone knew what was going on. We've heard form others that this was the case.

I was working at an autoparts store. They would come in, only paid with cash for everything. They would always give false information for warranties. No address. And we had people who worked there, say that while they were not part of the group, they knew of them, and knew how they operated.

Again, all second hand information. In theory it could be wrong, and I'll admit it's possible. But not likely.

We offered to deliver parts to them, because we did business accounts at the store, which was free delivery for all business accounts. The moment we told them we had to have address, they refused. Didn't want anything that could be traced anywhere. We also offered a no interest credit card, but they refused to do anything that wasn't in all cash.

So you can think what you want, but it seemed pretty clear to everyone in the store, and even management, what was going on.

But as long as they pay for what they buy, what am I going to report? Beside, even i did report it, left-wingers would accuse me of being racists, they would get away with it, and I'd be fired for bringing negative publicity to the store.

 

[Flopper]

Believe me, the payment is more than two thirds. I'm on Medicare, and have never paid the other third. Link please, proving it is only two thirds? Never heard of such a thing.

No one ever said that individuals couldn't buy into their own private plan. I know quite a few countries that have universal care with the ability to purchase a private plan.

No, they won't bill you either. They just take the loss. I worked in medical for ten years. My father is on Medicare, and he tells me what's going on with his bills. He does have secondary insurance that covers what Medicare doesn't, but a lot of older folks are not in that financial position to get that private policy.

Doctors limit new Medicare patients - USATODAY.com

You are both right and wrong.

Medicare reimbursement rates, that is Medicare approved amounts (which for part B is 80% from Medicare and 20% from the patient) is determined based on the relative, average costs of providing a service to a Medicare patient, and then adjusted to account for other provider expenses, including malpractice insurance and office-based practice costs.

Contrary to claims of a lot of people, Medicare rates are not determined by what insurance companies pay. It's actually the opposite in most cases because most insurance reimbursements today is paid to contracted providers. The medicare reimbursement rate provides a basis for negotiating contracts which makes Medicare and Insurance reimbursement rates pretty close in most places.

Getting back to the question at hand, for many years many healthcare providers would bill patients for the difference between Medicare rates and their fee . If a doctor accepted Medicare as full payment, they were "Accepting Medicare Assignment". At one time, about 25% of doctors would not accept Medicare Assignment and would bill the patient the difference. Today, due to the fact there is little difference between insurance reimbursement rates and Medicare and the number of Medicare patients, about 95% of doctors today accept Medicare Assignment. Thus patients rarely see any bill if they pay their 20% coinsurance at time service or have insurance supplement.

That's actually kind of the law. But my point is, they have to raise their rates on everybody, so it's a primary factor in private insurance premiums going up. But this is why when you see health facilities close down, they are usually in lower income areas where most of the patients are government patients and there are little to no private pay patients. There is nobody to make up the loss on.

When I got into the business back in 1979, Medicare was a gold mine for my company. It was like they were flushed with money. All you had to do is send them a bill, and they paid it no questions asked. As the funds started to show signs of weakness, that's when they started lowering their reimbursement rates. So what did we do? We raised the price of renting our hospital equipment, and again, you can't just raise it on one group of payers, you have to raise it on everybody.


Medicare is not self- supportive either. They are subsidized with money from the general fund, and of course, always trying to use as little as possible.

Ray, I don't believe your last statement is correct. Total Medicare expenditures in 2018 were $740.6 billion, and total income for for the trust funds was $755.7 billion, which consisted of $745.9 billion in non-interest income and $9.8 billion in interest earnings. Assets held in special issue U.S. Treasury securities increased by $15.1 billion to $304.7 billion. If by 2026, there is no change in the law, the Medicare Trust Funds will be depleted to a point where it will become a budget item.

I suspect that closures of healthcare facilities in low income areas is caused by lack of payment for services received. These facilities are supported primarily by Medicaid which is a state program whose reimbursement rate is determined by the state legislature each year. If state revenues decrease reimbursement rates are cut. I remember living in Florida during a recession in which the the state ran short of money in October. There were no medicaid reimbursements till Feb.

Medicare operates is entirely differently than Medicaid. All Medicare medical costs are being paid for through the Medicare Trust Funds. In few years congress will have to start supplementing these funds or Medicare taxes will have to be increased. The budget items for Medicare will not be discretionary which means congress can not cut those funds.

Lastly, I think you might be confused as to how Medicare determines reimbursement rates. The rates are not dependent on what insurance companies pay or the patient. You're correct that Medicare increases in reimbursement rates does result in insurance reimbursement rate increases in since insurance companies rely on Medicare rate changes as a starting point for contract negotiations.

Medicare uses a committee of 26 physician representatives nominated from the the major specialty societies to look at actual cost of delivery of of all services, the CPT codes. Healthcare providers supply CMS with actual cost in delivering each service. The committee compares these costs against previous costs to determine whether an adjust in reimbursement is required. Each code is reviewed at least once every 5 years. Yearly the committee submits recommended changes in reimbursement rates to CMS. So you see Medicare reimbursement rates are not based on what insurance or individuals pay for services. Even if insurance companies disappeared, there would be little impact on Medicare reimbursements.

The various states use their own methods in determining Medicaid reimbursement. Unfortunately, these methods are very dependent on state revenues. So a bad year in state revenues means a bad for Medicaid reimbursements. Thus medical facilities that are very dependent on Medicaid would have a hard time.
How is Medicare funded? | Medicare
How Medicare, Other Payers Determine Physician Reimbursement Rates

All Medicare medical costs are being paid for through the Medicare Trust Funds.

View attachment 294003

Total Non-interest income used to pay for Medicare, is not just from payroll taxes, but also general revenue from all tax payers, taxes on the benefits themselves, and transfers from states. In short, you are paying for Medicare, not just from your 3% on your income, but also from your State and Federal income taxes, and even a tax you pay on the benefit itself.

Medicare is not entirely funded from the trust fund, and never was by the way.

Assets held in special issue U.S. Treasury securities increased by $15.1 billion to $304.7 billion.

https://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Good-Intentions-Entitlement/dp/1503603547&tag=ff0d01-20

There are no real assets. You are actually 100% correct, that they are special issue US Treasury securities.

US securities have value, because you can sell them. What value does something have that you cannot sell? Say you buy a car, and the terms of the sale are, you can never sell the car for the rest of your life.

How much value does that car have, the day after you buy it? Zero. You can't sell it. Doesn't matter how much you paid for it, the car has zero value, because you can't sell it ever.

The US Treasury securities that are in the Social Security Trust Fund, and the Medicare Trust fund, have zero market value. They are nothing more than bits of paper.

If the government does not have the money to pay for Social Security, or Medicare, neither of those 'trust funds' can take those 'assets' and sell them on the market. They are not marketable assets.

In short, they are literally nothing more than post-it notes, saying 'IOU'. They don't even have legal protection. Meaning, neither trust fund, could even sue the government, to get payment on the securities, because they have no legal status.

Equally, by the way.... there is no real 'interest' on the 'assets'. A real asset, like a corporate bond, the money paying the interest comes from the profitability of the corporation. The government has no profitable operation. It taxes the public, to pay expenses. These securities, are just taking tax money, just like the Medicare 3% is taking tax money, just like the transfers from the general revenue is taking tax money. It's not like a Treasury bond, is magically producing value. All of the money in medicare comes from tax payers. There is no interest on the assets... the assets is the tax payer.

Medicare uses a committee of 26 physician representatives nominated from the the major specialty societies to look at actual cost of delivery of of all services, the CPT codes. Healthcare providers supply CMS with actual cost in delivering each service.

Medicare and Medicaid have always paid far less than the total cost of providing service. And by necessity hospitals, clinics and doctors, have no choice but to charge private patients a higher cost, to offset the loss of money on gov-patients.

As the payout from medicare and medicaid go down, the cost to private patients goes up.

This is unavoidable.

Yes, I understand Medicare has a committee of people, who sit around on our tax money blowing smoke in each others faces about how much stuff costs.

Doesn't change the facts. The fact is, Medicare and Medicaid both under charge for service, and that cost is passed onto private patients.

As Ray said earlier, if the number of private patients is too low, then the hospital can't survive and ends up closing. Again, Medicare and Medicaid under charge. This is well documented and established statistical fact.

Obviously, you believe that US trust funds for Social Security and Medicare are owned by the the US goverment and the assets of the funds can not be loaned to government because the goverment already owns the funds. In other words the goverment can't borrow money from itself.

The fact is the trust funds are a separate entities from goverment. The assets of the funds are held in trust for beneficiaries and can only be use to pay benefits to the beneficiaries or invest in special interest treasuries. Funds can be loaned to government in form of Special Interest Treasury Bills. These treasury bills are assets of the fund. Typically Special Issue Treasury bills are rolled over but they are redeemed to pay medical costs. Because they can not be sold on the open market does not mean they have no value. The fact that private issue stock and various rights to purchase can not be sold on the open market does not mean they have no value.

Your idea that the public has to pay higher medical fees because Medicare does not pay the full amount of medical fees is incorrect. This is because practically no one ever pays those fees. There is now only 9% of the population who are not covered by some form of insurance. Most of that 9% are undocumented immigrants, legal aliens in the country on business or holiday, and young people moving between jobs, and people who refuse medical services, none of which typically use the healthcare system other than the ER. About 97% of the revenue of healthcare providers come from insurance companies and their customers, Medicare and their beneficiaries, Medicaid, and other forms of government insurance. A doctors fee schedule has very little if any impact on their income. Even when a customer pays cash for a service or the service is denied by the insurance company, the actually amount paid by the patient is usually negotiated down to a rate similar to what the healthcare provider would receive from an insurance company.

Since Medical fees are pretty much fictitious, doctors, along with all other heath care providers, always bill far more than what they would ever expect in payments. Why? The simple answer is that they usually don’t know what to expect in payment because insurance companies reimbursements are so convoluted, so they bill outrageous amounts. Insurance companies will always pay what ever a medical provider bills up to the maximum amount they’re willing to pay for a service. So, if a doctor bills $100 for an office visit, and the insurance company is willing to pay $75, the doctor will get $75 and in today's world of insurance contracts and networks, the patient does not have to pay the difference. If the doctor bills only $60 for that office visit then $60 is all he’ll receive. So the doctor will always bill significantly higher than he ever expects to receive.

The average Medicare rate for a primary care doctor visit is about 70% of his listed fee for a primary care doctor visit, general more for specialists. Health Insurance contract rates go all the board but generally are about 5% higher than Medicare. However, contracted rates have huge variations based on the companies desire for business from a provider. If a company needs a certain provider in an area, they may pay much higher contract rates than Medicare. However, if the company is not interested in having more providers in an area, their contracted rate may be much lower than Medicare. This is typically in areas where claims are high and revenue is low.

Seniors account for only 13% of the population but account for 38% of the medical costs. This tends to make Medicare patients favorites of most doctors. Unlike insurance companies selling family policies, Medicare doesn't balk at monthly doctor visits. Thus any difference in insurance reimbursement and Medicare reimbursements is quickly recovered through additional visits.

Office Billing - True Cost of Heathcare
Health Insurance Coverage of the Total Population

 

[Slyhunter]

Almost half of all Americans are in medium to high paying jobs.

 

[beagle9]

Who is bringing the illegals here?

Business owners that are will to pay them when they get here

The key words are “when they get here”

Business owners do not control the border that illegal aliens pass through

They just give them the reason to come...take away that reason would be a great start

I doubt it.

I know illegals that run a business repairing cars. You are not going to top that.

I know another group that has a car wash.

Another shingles roofs.

All cash, all illegals.

There are numerous ways illegals can come and make money, without having to file an I-9.

The solution is control the border, and enforce immigration law.

the wall will stop illegals for about 3 seconds. Just throw a rope over the top and climb. See the video viral. The only solution is a good ID card that can't be faked like other countries have and it works. The wall is stupid and won't work. The last time we checked, 94% of illegal adult males work, 65% pay taxes, and 35% own homes. Thanks GOP for this scam forever.

No loyalty to country eh ?? Just look at workers as mindless drones slaving away for the factory so to speak, and doing it for almost nothing. Yeah that's the spirit alright.

 

[beagle9]

Almost half of all Americans are in medium to high paying jobs.

Should it be over half instead of less than half ??

 

[beagle9]

Well, I'm referring more generally.


But regardless of your specific status.... if I can look around and see dozens of examples of people who come here from other countries and succeed..... I simply do not buy the idea that Americans can't.

I'm sorry.... it just isn't true. Phil Robertson, was a drunk working at a bar. He started whittling duck callers, and now is a wealthy business owner.

Was it easy? Of course not. He was driving around in his pickup, trying to sell these things to stores, and they would laugh at his face, and walk him to the door.

But he kept at it, until he became a success.

That's the reality.

The solution to our problems is people getting up off the ground, and working towards success. Not somehow trying to prevent others from being successful, in hopes it will make you more successful.

You seem to be a bit misinformed about Phil Robertson.

College and football

Robertson throws against the Southeastern Louisiana Lions.
As an athlete in high school, Robertson was all-state in football, baseball, and track, which afforded him the opportunity to attend Louisiana Tech in Ruston on a football scholarship in the late 1960s.[10] At Tech, he played first-string quarterback for the Bulldogs, ahead of Pro Football Hall of Famer Terry Bradshaw,[11][12] the first overall pick in the 1970 NFL Draft. When he arrived at Tech in 1966, Bradshaw caused a media frenzy on account of his reputation of being a football sensation from nearby Shreveport.[13][14] Robertson was a year ahead of Bradshaw, and was the starter for two seasons in 1966 and 1967, and chose not to play in 1968.[15]

In his time at Louisiana Tech, Robertson completed 179 of 411 passing attempts for 2,237 yards. He threw 12 touchdowns, but had 34 interceptions.[10] It was thought Robertson had the potential for a pro career, but Robertson was more interested in hunting.[10] Bradshaw once remarked about Robertson's love of hunting, saying "... Phil Robertson, loved hunting more than he loved football. He'd come to practice directly from the woods, squirrel tails hanging out of his pockets, duck feathers on his clothes. Clearly he was a fine shot, so no one complained too much."[16]

When Paul Harvey approached Robertson with a recruitment to play professionally for the Washington Redskins, he declined because football conflicted with his hunting. Additionally, football was only about holding up his scholarship to him, while Bradshaw practically lived and breathed the sport.[14] Robertson put it this way: "Terry went for the bucks, and I chased after the ducks."[10]

Robertson later received a bachelor's degree in physical education and a master's in education.[17]

Career
Early career
Robertson initially spent several years teaching[17] before becoming a commercial fisherman. In the 1970s, his marriage became strained. Robertson was running a bar in 1975.[18][19]

Duck Commander
As an avid duck hunter, Robertson was dissatisfied with the condition of duck calls. He began to experiment with making a call that would produce the exact sound of a duck. He invented his first Duck Commander call in 1972. He received a patent for this call and the Duck Commander Company was incorporated in 1973.[17] Today, the company of Duck Commander is a multimillion-dollar business, headed by his son, Willie Robertson.

Those are crappy quarterback stats and he ran a bar before he became Mr duck call. You're both right.

And leftist couldn't wipe his boots even if they wanted too now. His success drives the leftist out of what's left of their tiny little minds. LOL

 

[Mac-7]

Who is bringing the illegals here?

Business owners that are will to pay them when they get here

The key words are “when they get here”

Business owners do not control the border that illegal aliens pass through

They just give them the reason to come...take away that reason would be a great start

I doubt it.

I know illegals that run a business repairing cars. You are not going to top that.

I know another group that has a car wash.

Another shingles roofs.

All cash, all illegals.

There are numerous ways illegals can come and make money, without having to file an I-9.

The solution is control the border, and enforce immigration law.

the wall will stop illegals for about 3 seconds. Just throw a rope over the top and climb. See the video viral. The only solution is a good ID card that can't be faked like other countries have and it works. The wall is stupid and won't work. The last time we checked, 94% of illegal adult males work, 65% pay taxes, and 35% own homes. Thanks GOP for this scam forever.

Your numbers for illrgal alien males employment rates are as laughable as the lib estimate of 12 million for the number of illegals in the country

So congress enacts a national Id card

Will liberals have the stomach to deport illegal aliens when you find them?

The answer is no

You want an open border that continues the flood of illegal aliens that libs them will give amnesty to

 

[Mac-7]

China is using trade as part of a geo political war against the western democracies and non communist nations all over the world

We have never had free trade with china because individual companies cannot compete with a communist dictatorship

That makes no sense.

The way you 'wage war' with Trade, is by denying trade.

Again, the way we waged war with trade against Russia, is by imposing sanctions against Russia.... denying them trade.

You cannot 'wage a war' with trade. Trade is inherently mutually beneficial.

If it did not benefit us to have trade, we wouldn't engage in trade. The reason we trade, is because we benefit.

Again, if it was possible to wage war using trade, we don't we trade with Cuba to destroy the communist government? North Korea? Iran? Venezuela?

Lack of trade is a weapon. Trade can't be weaponized, except through clever mythology.

And as far as lack of a 'free trade'......

If China is subsidizing steel, that benefits us, and harms China.

Think about it.... China is taxes their own citizens, to pay money, so that we can buy steel at a discount.

This is effectively like you wanting to buy a car from me, and me saying I'm going to take money from my wife and daughter, so that I can sell you this $20,000 car, for $18,000... and this is going to harm you, to get a car cheaper, on the money of my wife and daughter.

The concept is insane. If the Chinese want to take their own people's money, so we can have wealth cheaper..... I say let them.

Mercantilism is a practice that has existed since the start of the Industrisl Revolution

Nations will target products produced on foreign countries and flood the market with lower priced items till the domestic manufacturer goes out of business

Even if they do so at a loss

Because of that tariffs were invented to protect domestic producers

Mercantilism does not exist anymore.

Originally Mercantilism worked because after selling goods to another country, say England, they would take those pound notes, and convert them into Gold, which was the default backing of currency.

Running that system, England would have their gold reserves depleted, and France would have their reserves filled. This actually happened during the years between world war 1 and 2.

However, that system doesn't work now that we have fiat money. China can't do anything with the US dollars it collects, except spend them in the US.

So that really isn't a concern.

As far as shutting down local business with predatory pricing....

Again... if you want to sell stuff to me at a loss.... I think that's great.

Further, remember that all those things we get, that they are selling at a loss... build our economy. The only way you can see it is as a loss to our economy, is if you look exclusively at steel mills only. But what you are ignoring is all the companies that are growing and employing more people, and producing more goods, because steel is cheap.

However, it isn't even true though.

View attachment 294026

We get more steel from Russia than we do China.

So how can we blame china for job loss in the US? We can't logically. It's simply that we hear things, and want someone to blame, and China is a good target for some reason. The reality is, we benefit just as much from China, as they do from us.

Mercantilism is a national economic policy that is designed to maximize the exports, and minimize the imports, of a nation. These policies aim to reduce a possible current account deficit or reach a current account surplus. Mercantilism includes a national economic policy aimed at accumulating monetary reserves through a positive balance of trade, especially of finished goods. Historically, such policies frequently led to war and also motivated colonial expansion. Mercantilist theory varies in sophistication from one writer to another and has evolved over time

Correct

Modern mercantilism as practiced by china seeks to build the chinese economy at the expense of other nations, particularly the US

The chinese are willing to accept short-term loss for long-term gain

The gain for the chinese dictatorship is employment for their citizens albeit at extremely low wages and often bad working conditions bordering on slavery

And that is the “free market” that globalists expect American workers to compete against

As I said, it is impossible to engage in trade, at anyone's expense. If I am not better off, after doing a trade of any kind, then I wouldn't do the trade.

If I am worse off after buying a car from you, I won't buy a car from you. It doesn't matter if you are in Ohio, Kentucky, Canada, or China.

You China cannot engage in trade at someone's expense. It's not possible.

Moreover, as I stated before, you can't maximize exports, while minimizing imports. That system only worked when you had a commodity backed currency, like Gold. Then you can export products for British pounds for example, and then instead of buying anything, you simply covert the pounds into gold, which depletes the reserves of Britain, while building up your own.

This is impossible with fiat currency. To do that means you are collecting bits of paper, in exchange for goods. The entire country would go bankrupt doing that, because the only value a US Dollar bill has, is the value of what you can exchange it for.

Can they buy stuff from Russia with US Dollars? No. Japan? England? Australia? No. The only place that US Dollars can be exchanged, is in the US or other territories we have heavy influence over, and even then, those people will ultimately bring those dollars back to the US.

So whether they buy from Canada, and the Canadians buy from the US... it doesn't matter. All those US Dollars eventually all come back to the US.

Lastly, American workers can easily compete against the Chinese market, and have for decades. In fact there are many such markets that the US has competed against. The Japanese in the 80s. The Indians. Mexico even. The US economy has always competed very well with emerging markets.

Moreover, as I stated before, you can't maximize exports, while minimizing imports

Dont be so sure

China is doing a great job of that to the tune of $350-500 billion a year surplus for them

When you become totally addicted to cheap stuff from china they will own the US market

Then all you can produce is raw materials that they want and nothing else unless they allow you to

But America is still big enough and wealthy enough to resist the chinse

The reason we dont - except for trump - is chinese bribery of our politicians and academic institutions

 

[Mac-7]

I thought we were talking about what it would cost to replace illegal alien fruit pickers who make very low wages with American citizens who will not work that cheap

It may be that Americans will not do those jobs at any price thanks to welfare making too many low income people allergic to hard physical labor

If so we can have a guest workers program where MEN and only men are allowed in the US to work on farms

Then in that case, it would drastically increase prices. No matter how crappy the job, there is an American willing to do that job at some price point. The question is how high is that price point?

And eventually if the price is high enough, it will end up automated.

But in labor intensive production, if you replace those immigrants with Americans, the price will go up drastically.

I dont mind paying more for labor in a free market if the workers are Americans

But you do mind paying more. Everyone does. Are you really trying to say that you would buy the exact same amount of any given good or service, if the price was doubled? Of course not. That's not even logically possible, as the amount of money you have doesn't magically double with the price of the goods.

I don't go to Chipotle anymore, because now that is $7 for a cheap burrito, it's not worth it.

Increasing price always has a negative effect on people purchasing. It's a bit ridiculous to claim otherwise.

We adjust

The cost of living in california or new york city is much higher than in most areas of the Sunbelt

The cost of living in America is much higher than in central America

If I know that the free market is delivering the lowest possible price then that is the price I am willing to pay

Well yes, we adjust by not buying goods and services.

That's kind of an odd statement to say, that as long as you know the free-market is providing the lowest possible wage, then you are willing to pay it.

Really? So if the lowest price was $30 bucks for a burrito you would pay it? No. Of course not.

I was reading about how (if I remember right) in Denmark, no one anywhere, hires someone to paint a house. There is no house painting services in the whole country.

Why? Because due to taxes and wage laws, it would cost you the customer $15, for $1 dollars worth of painting. A $100 job, would end up costing you $1,500.

The result is, either they hire people under the table, or everyone paints their house themselves.

Just because it's the lowest price the free market can provide, doesn't mean everyone is willing to pay it. Of course not. That is rather ridiculous.

You are complaining about high taxes in denmark not the cost of labor in a free market

I am not suggesting we should not trade with other countries

Just be more selective about who we trade with and under what conditions

China is a threat to our economy and our nationsl security

 

[francoHFW]

Well, I'm referring more generally.


But regardless of your specific status.... if I can look around and see dozens of examples of people who come here from other countries and succeed..... I simply do not buy the idea that Americans can't.

I'm sorry.... it just isn't true. Phil Robertson, was a drunk working at a bar. He started whittling duck callers, and now is a wealthy business owner.

Was it easy? Of course not. He was driving around in his pickup, trying to sell these things to stores, and they would laugh at his face, and walk him to the door.

But he kept at it, until he became a success.

That's the reality.

The solution to our problems is people getting up off the ground, and working towards success. Not somehow trying to prevent others from being successful, in hopes it will make you more successful.

You seem to be a bit misinformed about Phil Robertson.

College and football

Robertson throws against the Southeastern Louisiana Lions.
As an athlete in high school, Robertson was all-state in football, baseball, and track, which afforded him the opportunity to attend Louisiana Tech in Ruston on a football scholarship in the late 1960s.[10] At Tech, he played first-string quarterback for the Bulldogs, ahead of Pro Football Hall of Famer Terry Bradshaw,[11][12] the first overall pick in the 1970 NFL Draft. When he arrived at Tech in 1966, Bradshaw caused a media frenzy on account of his reputation of being a football sensation from nearby Shreveport.[13][14] Robertson was a year ahead of Bradshaw, and was the starter for two seasons in 1966 and 1967, and chose not to play in 1968.[15]

In his time at Louisiana Tech, Robertson completed 179 of 411 passing attempts for 2,237 yards. He threw 12 touchdowns, but had 34 interceptions.[10] It was thought Robertson had the potential for a pro career, but Robertson was more interested in hunting.[10] Bradshaw once remarked about Robertson's love of hunting, saying "... Phil Robertson, loved hunting more than he loved football. He'd come to practice directly from the woods, squirrel tails hanging out of his pockets, duck feathers on his clothes. Clearly he was a fine shot, so no one complained too much."[16]

When Paul Harvey approached Robertson with a recruitment to play professionally for the Washington Redskins, he declined because football conflicted with his hunting. Additionally, football was only about holding up his scholarship to him, while Bradshaw practically lived and breathed the sport.[14] Robertson put it this way: "Terry went for the bucks, and I chased after the ducks."[10]

Robertson later received a bachelor's degree in physical education and a master's in education.[17]

Career
Early career
Robertson initially spent several years teaching[17] before becoming a commercial fisherman. In the 1970s, his marriage became strained. Robertson was running a bar in 1975.[18][19]

Duck Commander
As an avid duck hunter, Robertson was dissatisfied with the condition of duck calls. He began to experiment with making a call that would produce the exact sound of a duck. He invented his first Duck Commander call in 1972. He received a patent for this call and the Duck Commander Company was incorporated in 1973.[17] Today, the company of Duck Commander is a multimillion-dollar business, headed by his son, Willie Robertson.

Those are crappy quarterback stats and he ran a bar before he became Mr duck call. You're both right.

And leftist couldn't wipe his boots even if they wanted too now. His success drives the leftist out of what's left of their tiny little minds. LOL

I have nothing against the guy, I'm just saying he wasn't a very good quarterback and he did bartend before his great success. Try and remain calm and change the channel sometime you seem to be in some kind of fugue state of hate, super duper.

 

[francoHFW]

Business owners that are will to pay them when they get here

The key words are “when they get here”

Business owners do not control the border that illegal aliens pass through

They just give them the reason to come...take away that reason would be a great start

I doubt it.

I know illegals that run a business repairing cars. You are not going to top that.

I know another group that has a car wash.

Another shingles roofs.

All cash, all illegals.

There are numerous ways illegals can come and make money, without having to file an I-9.

The solution is control the border, and enforce immigration law.

the wall will stop illegals for about 3 seconds. Just throw a rope over the top and climb. See the video viral. The only solution is a good ID card that can't be faked like other countries have and it works. The wall is stupid and won't work. The last time we checked, 94% of illegal adult males work, 65% pay taxes, and 35% own homes. Thanks GOP for this scam forever.

No loyalty to country eh ?? Just look at workers as mindless drones slaving away for the factory so to speak, and doing it for almost nothing. Yeah that's the spirit alright.

What are you babbling about? Your loyalty is party first idiocy and to the lying thieving greedy idiot GOP rich, super duper.

 

[Correll]

Francho cant keep up without hurling personal insults

Liberals generally, can't make a real supporting argument.


STOP for liberals, is at best, three posts in, the personal insults start, and they just grow and grow, while any attempts at making or defending real points about issues, decrease rapidly.

Most of the time when someone gets extremely angry in a debate, is when they start losing it and they know it. That's when the anger and insults start flying out. Anytime someone is attempting to defend an indefensible position, and someone hits them with the truth that immediately destroys their position, then get ready for the anger and insults etc to come next.

Which is pretty much every time some one seriously challenges a liberals position.


How often do you NOT have that happen, when you talk to ta liberal about anything significant?

The problem is your facts are all garbage, brainwashed emotional moron... The entire world outside your bubble of GOP bologna agrees you are as good as insane along with your propaganda machine. All you know is phony scandals and misinformation and Hate based on character assassination based on nothing.

So, what is your favorite "fact" to support your claim?


This is a trick question. I know that you cannot seriously and honestly give me one fact to support your bullshit.


BECAUSE WHAT YOU JUST CLAIMED IS BULLSHIT.



Most likely, you go for the shotgun logical fallacy.


Second most likely, personal attacks fallacy.

 

[francoHFW]

Francho cant keep up without hurling personal insults

Liberals generally, can't make a real supporting argument.


STOP for liberals, is at best, three posts in, the personal insults start, and they just grow and grow, while any attempts at making or defending real points about issues, decrease rapidly.

Most of the time when someone gets extremely angry in a debate, is when they start losing it and they know it. That's when the anger and insults start flying out. Anytime someone is attempting to defend an indefensible position, and someone hits them with the truth that immediately destroys their position, then get ready for the anger and insults etc to come next.

Which is pretty much every time some one seriously challenges a liberals position.


How often do you NOT have that happen, when you talk to ta liberal about anything significant?

The problem is your facts are all garbage, brainwashed emotional moron... The entire world outside your bubble of GOP bologna agrees you are as good as insane along with your propaganda machine. All you know is phony scandals and misinformation and Hate based on character assassination based on nothing.

So, what is your favorite "fact" to support your claim?


This is a trick question. I know that you cannot seriously and honestly give me one fact to support your bullshit.


BECAUSE WHAT YOU JUST CLAIMED IS BULLSHIT.



Most likely, you go for the shotgun logical fallacy.


Second most likely, personal attacks fallacy.

that everything you know is garbage propaganda? How about hundreds of phony scandals against Hillary Obama Lois Lerner the FBI etcetera etc they've all been investigated and nothing has been found except your garbage propaganda repeated endlessly and never retracted even when fully discredited. there are so many phony scandals you have to have the deep State gigantic conspiracy. Total idiotic disrespect for all our institutions including journalism. Absolute idiocy super duper.