Almost half of Americans work in low paid jobs

[Harpy Eagle]

Not sure if I agree with that.

Unless you are making the case that a business owner is knowingly, intentionally contacting people in Mexico, and saying openly if they come, he'll pay them illegally....... then I don't see that as being the same thing.

No, they are not contacting people in Mexico, but the people in Mexico know if they come people will hire them. Those people that are more than willing to hire them are why they come.

If someone shows up.... and asks for a job.... and I have nothing more to do with it, than determining if I wish to hire someone.....

Then that to me is not the same. It's not the job of a business owner to filter out people who should not be in the country to begin with. It's not the business owners job to control the border. It's not the business owners job to enforce immigration laws.

It is the Federal Governments job to protect the nations borders, by controlling who enters the country. It's a fundamental duty of the government, to do that.

As for requiring that business is responsible for enforcing immigration controls, this is another area, where if you flipped it around on yourself, you would never accept such logic.

Few years back, had a guy knock on my door, and ask if I wanted my back deck painted. Am I now responsible for doing a background check and determine if he is legal to work?

Say a guy asks if you if he can wash your car, or mow your lawn, or black top your drive way, or shingle your roof. Do you pay money to do a full background and I-9 lookup to determine his legal status?

Should you be tossed into jail, or fined thousands of dollars, if the guy you hired to do any of those things, turned out to be illegal?

You would never tolerate such unfair punishment against yourself. And of course not. Why would you be required to do these things?

Well what is the difference between you directly hiring a guy to mow your lawn twice a month for cash, and you hiring a lawn service that hires a guy to mow your lawn?

The only difference is, you can track with paperwork, the business owner. But otherwise they are identical actions.

So should we toss you in jail for hiring someone, who turned out to be illegal? I don't think so.

Maybe the authorities that are in charge of enforcing the law, should be the authorities who enforce the law. That's my view.

Unless you can absolutely prove that a business owner is intentionally aiding and encouraging violation of the law. Then I'm with you.

To answer all of that, yes, it is the employers responsibility to know if the person they are hiring is legal to work in this country.

I would never hire someone to do the work you mentioned without some sort of a check on them, if you do you are a fool. And not even just for immigration status. If you let people that walk up and knock on your door do work in and around your house without checking them out...you are just begging for problems.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Any argument at all? Or just the usual idiocy? So who's bringing these illegals here LOL? Do you have a Social Security card that cannot be faked in your imaginary America? What the hell are you babbling about LOL?

Who is bringing the illegals here?

Business owners that are will to pay them when they get here

The key words are “when they get here”

Business owners do not control the border that illegal aliens pass through

They just give them the reason to come...take away that reason would be a great start

I doubt it.

I know illegals that run a business repairing cars. You are not going to top that.

I know another group that has a car wash.

Another shingles roofs.

All cash, all illegals.

There are numerous ways illegals can come and make money, without having to file an I-9.

The solution is control the border, and enforce immigration law.

If you know about them and have not reported them, then you are just as much to blame as they are.

 

[Andylusion]

Who is bringing the illegals here?

Business owners that are will to pay them when they get here

The key words are “when they get here”

Business owners do not control the border that illegal aliens pass through

They just give them the reason to come...take away that reason would be a great start

I doubt it.

I know illegals that run a business repairing cars. You are not going to top that.

I know another group that has a car wash.

Another shingles roofs.

All cash, all illegals.

There are numerous ways illegals can come and make money, without having to file an I-9.

The solution is control the border, and enforce immigration law.

If you know about them and have not reported them, then you are just as much to blame as they are.

I don't have any proof, and typically trying to call the police on what is a legal customer, is a great way to get fired.

If I had a clear proof of illegal activity, I most certainly would contact authorities.

 

[Andylusion]

Not sure if I agree with that.

Unless you are making the case that a business owner is knowingly, intentionally contacting people in Mexico, and saying openly if they come, he'll pay them illegally....... then I don't see that as being the same thing.

No, they are not contacting people in Mexico, but the people in Mexico know if they come people will hire them. Those people that are more than willing to hire them are why they come.

If someone shows up.... and asks for a job.... and I have nothing more to do with it, than determining if I wish to hire someone.....

Then that to me is not the same. It's not the job of a business owner to filter out people who should not be in the country to begin with. It's not the business owners job to control the border. It's not the business owners job to enforce immigration laws.

It is the Federal Governments job to protect the nations borders, by controlling who enters the country. It's a fundamental duty of the government, to do that.

As for requiring that business is responsible for enforcing immigration controls, this is another area, where if you flipped it around on yourself, you would never accept such logic.

Few years back, had a guy knock on my door, and ask if I wanted my back deck painted. Am I now responsible for doing a background check and determine if he is legal to work?

Say a guy asks if you if he can wash your car, or mow your lawn, or black top your drive way, or shingle your roof. Do you pay money to do a full background and I-9 lookup to determine his legal status?

Should you be tossed into jail, or fined thousands of dollars, if the guy you hired to do any of those things, turned out to be illegal?

You would never tolerate such unfair punishment against yourself. And of course not. Why would you be required to do these things?

Well what is the difference between you directly hiring a guy to mow your lawn twice a month for cash, and you hiring a lawn service that hires a guy to mow your lawn?

The only difference is, you can track with paperwork, the business owner. But otherwise they are identical actions.

So should we toss you in jail for hiring someone, who turned out to be illegal? I don't think so.

Maybe the authorities that are in charge of enforcing the law, should be the authorities who enforce the law. That's my view.

Unless you can absolutely prove that a business owner is intentionally aiding and encouraging violation of the law. Then I'm with you.

To answer all of that, yes, it is the employers responsibility to know if the person they are hiring is legal to work in this country.

I would never hire someone to do the work you mentioned without some sort of a check on them, if you do you are a fool. And not even just for immigration status. If you let people that walk up and knock on your door do work in and around your house without checking them out...you are just begging for problems.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

I've used people like that numerous times.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

There you go. It's the county's job to check them out, not yours. It's the authorities job to check them out, not yours.

I agree.

 

[Mac-7]

US companies bring home $665 billion in overseas cash last year, falling short of Trump pledge

That sounds impressive but dont expect that much every year since much of it was a one-time response to the trump tax cuts

If it has not been clear before let me say now that I’m not against international trade

Between non enemies such as the US, europe, japan, south korea, canada and others with comparable economies and costs of doing business trade is a good thing

But with raptor states like china where business exists to serve the political aggression of the dictatorship free trade is an illusion

Many Americans do not see the threat from china and see that country as a harmless panda bear

Which it is not

So I want less one-way trade with china, less wealth transfer, and no technology transfer

I do not yet see a connection between the two issues. One issue is trade. The other is the potential for Geo-political conflict with China.

While I don't see them as entirely mutually exclusive, I also don't see them as intertwined either.

China is going to grow whether we engage in trade with them, or not. Any country that moves to adopt more Capitalist economic policies, will grow.

Cutting off trade with China will not stop the economy from growing, now stop others from engaging with China.

One thing it might do, is make the Chinese more anti-American.

One of the things that has irritated me about Cuba, is that no matter how badly the Socialist government has decimated the Cuban economy, no matter how impoverished and hopeless the people are, the government simply blamed everything on the "American Embargo".

So no matter what happened, it wasn't their governments fault... it was the Americans fault. A line we hear from mindless left-wingers here in the US constantly.

So I am not in favor of cutting off trade in the name of hindering their government, because all it will do is strengthen their government, by allowing them to use the US as a scapegoat for everything that happens.

And the reality is, Cuba wouldn't be poor, if they engaged in Capitalism. The Embargo is just an excuse for failure, not an actual cause of it.

China is going to grow no matter what. The question is, are we going to give them excuses to blame the US for everything that happens in their country?

As for businesses exist to serve the government... I do not see that China is much different than anywhere else. I don't see that a noodle company in China, exists to serve the government. I do see that government sometimes coerces companies to operate in a favorable manor, but then we have that here in the US too.

I think free-trade is still the best way to go, even with China. The last thing I want to do, is give the Chinese people an excuse to blame the US, for their garbage governments bad policies.

China is using trade as part of a geo political war against the western democracies and non communist nations all over the world

We have never had free trade with china because individual companies cannot compete with a communist dictatorship

That makes no sense.

The way you 'wage war' with Trade, is by denying trade.

Again, the way we waged war with trade against Russia, is by imposing sanctions against Russia.... denying them trade.

You cannot 'wage a war' with trade. Trade is inherently mutually beneficial.

If it did not benefit us to have trade, we wouldn't engage in trade. The reason we trade, is because we benefit.

Again, if it was possible to wage war using trade, we don't we trade with Cuba to destroy the communist government? North Korea? Iran? Venezuela?

Lack of trade is a weapon. Trade can't be weaponized, except through clever mythology.

And as far as lack of a 'free trade'......

If China is subsidizing steel, that benefits us, and harms China.

Think about it.... China is taxes their own citizens, to pay money, so that we can buy steel at a discount.

This is effectively like you wanting to buy a car from me, and me saying I'm going to take money from my wife and daughter, so that I can sell you this $20,000 car, for $18,000... and this is going to harm you, to get a car cheaper, on the money of my wife and daughter.

The concept is insane. If the Chinese want to take their own people's money, so we can have wealth cheaper..... I say let them.

Mercantilism is a practice that has existed since the start of the Industrisl Revolution

Nations will target products produced on foreign countries and flood the market with lower priced items till the domestic manufacturer goes out of business

Even if they do so at a loss

Because of that tariffs were invented to protect domestic producers

Mercantilism does not exist anymore.

Originally Mercantilism worked because after selling goods to another country, say England, they would take those pound notes, and convert them into Gold, which was the default backing of currency.

Running that system, England would have their gold reserves depleted, and France would have their reserves filled. This actually happened during the years between world war 1 and 2.

However, that system doesn't work now that we have fiat money. China can't do anything with the US dollars it collects, except spend them in the US.

So that really isn't a concern.

As far as shutting down local business with predatory pricing....

Again... if you want to sell stuff to me at a loss.... I think that's great.

Further, remember that all those things we get, that they are selling at a loss... build our economy. The only way you can see it is as a loss to our economy, is if you look exclusively at steel mills only. But what you are ignoring is all the companies that are growing and employing more people, and producing more goods, because steel is cheap.

However, it isn't even true though.

View attachment 294026

We get more steel from Russia than we do China.

So how can we blame china for job loss in the US? We can't logically. It's simply that we hear things, and want someone to blame, and China is a good target for some reason. The reality is, we benefit just as much from China, as they do from us.

Mercantilism is a national economic policy that is designed to maximize the exports, and minimize the imports, of a nation. These policies aim to reduce a possible current account deficit or reach a current account surplus. Mercantilism includes a national economic policy aimed at accumulating monetary reserves through a positive balance of trade, especially of finished goods. Historically, such policies frequently led to war and also motivated colonial expansion. Mercantilist theory varies in sophistication from one writer to another and has evolved over time

Correct

Modern mercantilism as practiced by china seeks to build the chinese economy at the expense of other nations, particularly the US

The chinese are willing to accept short-term loss for long-term gain

The gain for the chinese dictatorship is employment for their citizens albeit at extremely low wages and often bad working conditions bordering on slavery

And that is the “free market” that globalists expect American workers to compete against

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Not sure if I agree with that.

Unless you are making the case that a business owner is knowingly, intentionally contacting people in Mexico, and saying openly if they come, he'll pay them illegally....... then I don't see that as being the same thing.

No, they are not contacting people in Mexico, but the people in Mexico know if they come people will hire them. Those people that are more than willing to hire them are why they come.

If someone shows up.... and asks for a job.... and I have nothing more to do with it, than determining if I wish to hire someone.....

Then that to me is not the same. It's not the job of a business owner to filter out people who should not be in the country to begin with. It's not the business owners job to control the border. It's not the business owners job to enforce immigration laws.

It is the Federal Governments job to protect the nations borders, by controlling who enters the country. It's a fundamental duty of the government, to do that.

As for requiring that business is responsible for enforcing immigration controls, this is another area, where if you flipped it around on yourself, you would never accept such logic.

Few years back, had a guy knock on my door, and ask if I wanted my back deck painted. Am I now responsible for doing a background check and determine if he is legal to work?

Say a guy asks if you if he can wash your car, or mow your lawn, or black top your drive way, or shingle your roof. Do you pay money to do a full background and I-9 lookup to determine his legal status?

Should you be tossed into jail, or fined thousands of dollars, if the guy you hired to do any of those things, turned out to be illegal?

You would never tolerate such unfair punishment against yourself. And of course not. Why would you be required to do these things?

Well what is the difference between you directly hiring a guy to mow your lawn twice a month for cash, and you hiring a lawn service that hires a guy to mow your lawn?

The only difference is, you can track with paperwork, the business owner. But otherwise they are identical actions.

So should we toss you in jail for hiring someone, who turned out to be illegal? I don't think so.

Maybe the authorities that are in charge of enforcing the law, should be the authorities who enforce the law. That's my view.

Unless you can absolutely prove that a business owner is intentionally aiding and encouraging violation of the law. Then I'm with you.

To answer all of that, yes, it is the employers responsibility to know if the person they are hiring is legal to work in this country.

I would never hire someone to do the work you mentioned without some sort of a check on them, if you do you are a fool. And not even just for immigration status. If you let people that walk up and knock on your door do work in and around your house without checking them out...you are just begging for problems.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

I've used people like that numerous times.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

There you go. It's the county's job to check them out, not yours. It's the authorities job to check them out, not yours.

I agree.

not mine because I am not the employer, just a customer. It is the employers job to check them out and the government’s job to make sure the employer does it

 

[Mac-7]

Even had picked food generallydoes not go directly from field to table

There are warehouses, wholesalers and retailers in the food chain, plus, transportation, insurance, and other business expenses

Right, and if we are talking about the effects of minimum wage overall, it would effect every single employee, at every step in the process. The guy driving the forklift getting pallets off the truck, is going to get paid more if the minimum wage goes up.

I thought we were talking about what it would cost to replace illegal alien fruit pickers who make very low wages with American citizens who will not work that cheap

It may be that Americans will not do those jobs at any price thanks to welfare making too many low income people allergic to hard physical labor

If so we can have a guest workers program where MEN and only men are allowed in the US to work on farms

Then in that case, it would drastically increase prices. No matter how crappy the job, there is an American willing to do that job at some price point. The question is how high is that price point?

And eventually if the price is high enough, it will end up automated.

But in labor intensive production, if you replace those immigrants with Americans, the price will go up drastically.

I dont mind paying more for labor in a free market if the workers are Americans

But you do mind paying more. Everyone does. Are you really trying to say that you would buy the exact same amount of any given good or service, if the price was doubled? Of course not. That's not even logically possible, as the amount of money you have doesn't magically double with the price of the goods.

I don't go to Chipotle anymore, because now that is $7 for a cheap burrito, it's not worth it.

Increasing price always has a negative effect on people purchasing. It's a bit ridiculous to claim otherwise.

We adjust

The cost of living in california or new york city is much higher than in most areas of the Sunbelt

The cost of living in America is much higher than in central America

If I know that the free market is delivering the lowest possible price then that is the price I am willing to pay

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I don't have any proof, and typically trying to call the police on what is a legal customer, is a great way to get fired.

If I had a clear proof of illegal activity, I most certainly would contact authorities.

So, you feel good about making such accusations without proof?

 

[Questioner]

"Wage slavery" and actual slavery aren't the same thing - "wage slavery" is merely the product of laziness, apathy, and working jobs so easy that one could do them in their sleep.

As an entrepreneur, I can attest to this.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Not sure if I agree with that.

Unless you are making the case that a business owner is knowingly, intentionally contacting people in Mexico, and saying openly if they come, he'll pay them illegally....... then I don't see that as being the same thing.

No, they are not contacting people in Mexico, but the people in Mexico know if they come people will hire them. Those people that are more than willing to hire them are why they come.

If someone shows up.... and asks for a job.... and I have nothing more to do with it, than determining if I wish to hire someone.....

Then that to me is not the same. It's not the job of a business owner to filter out people who should not be in the country to begin with. It's not the business owners job to control the border. It's not the business owners job to enforce immigration laws.

It is the Federal Governments job to protect the nations borders, by controlling who enters the country. It's a fundamental duty of the government, to do that.

As for requiring that business is responsible for enforcing immigration controls, this is another area, where if you flipped it around on yourself, you would never accept such logic.

Few years back, had a guy knock on my door, and ask if I wanted my back deck painted. Am I now responsible for doing a background check and determine if he is legal to work?

Say a guy asks if you if he can wash your car, or mow your lawn, or black top your drive way, or shingle your roof. Do you pay money to do a full background and I-9 lookup to determine his legal status?

Should you be tossed into jail, or fined thousands of dollars, if the guy you hired to do any of those things, turned out to be illegal?

You would never tolerate such unfair punishment against yourself. And of course not. Why would you be required to do these things?

Well what is the difference between you directly hiring a guy to mow your lawn twice a month for cash, and you hiring a lawn service that hires a guy to mow your lawn?

The only difference is, you can track with paperwork, the business owner. But otherwise they are identical actions.

So should we toss you in jail for hiring someone, who turned out to be illegal? I don't think so.

Maybe the authorities that are in charge of enforcing the law, should be the authorities who enforce the law. That's my view.

Unless you can absolutely prove that a business owner is intentionally aiding and encouraging violation of the law. Then I'm with you.

To answer all of that, yes, it is the employers responsibility to know if the person they are hiring is legal to work in this country.

I would never hire someone to do the work you mentioned without some sort of a check on them, if you do you are a fool. And not even just for immigration status. If you let people that walk up and knock on your door do work in and around your house without checking them out...you are just begging for problems.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

I've used people like that numerous times.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

There you go. It's the county's job to check them out, not yours. It's the authorities job to check them out, not yours.

I agree.

not mine because I am not the employer, just a customer. It is the employers job to check them out and the government’s job to make sure the employer does it

Correct. When somebody sneaks into our country and gets a job, lock up the American, and let the illegal live peacefully in their sanctuary city.

 

[Markle]

Yet Trump ignores the other end of the chain because those are his donors

I must have missed it. What and where is the comprehensive immigration reform bill which President Donald Trump has refused to sign and has vetoed?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Not sure if I agree with that.

Unless you are making the case that a business owner is knowingly, intentionally contacting people in Mexico, and saying openly if they come, he'll pay them illegally....... then I don't see that as being the same thing.

No, they are not contacting people in Mexico, but the people in Mexico know if they come people will hire them. Those people that are more than willing to hire them are why they come.

If someone shows up.... and asks for a job.... and I have nothing more to do with it, than determining if I wish to hire someone.....

Then that to me is not the same. It's not the job of a business owner to filter out people who should not be in the country to begin with. It's not the business owners job to control the border. It's not the business owners job to enforce immigration laws.

It is the Federal Governments job to protect the nations borders, by controlling who enters the country. It's a fundamental duty of the government, to do that.

As for requiring that business is responsible for enforcing immigration controls, this is another area, where if you flipped it around on yourself, you would never accept such logic.

Few years back, had a guy knock on my door, and ask if I wanted my back deck painted. Am I now responsible for doing a background check and determine if he is legal to work?

Say a guy asks if you if he can wash your car, or mow your lawn, or black top your drive way, or shingle your roof. Do you pay money to do a full background and I-9 lookup to determine his legal status?

Should you be tossed into jail, or fined thousands of dollars, if the guy you hired to do any of those things, turned out to be illegal?

You would never tolerate such unfair punishment against yourself. And of course not. Why would you be required to do these things?

Well what is the difference between you directly hiring a guy to mow your lawn twice a month for cash, and you hiring a lawn service that hires a guy to mow your lawn?

The only difference is, you can track with paperwork, the business owner. But otherwise they are identical actions.

So should we toss you in jail for hiring someone, who turned out to be illegal? I don't think so.

Maybe the authorities that are in charge of enforcing the law, should be the authorities who enforce the law. That's my view.

Unless you can absolutely prove that a business owner is intentionally aiding and encouraging violation of the law. Then I'm with you.

To answer all of that, yes, it is the employers responsibility to know if the person they are hiring is legal to work in this country.

I would never hire someone to do the work you mentioned without some sort of a check on them, if you do you are a fool. And not even just for immigration status. If you let people that walk up and knock on your door do work in and around your house without checking them out...you are just begging for problems.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

I've used people like that numerous times.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

There you go. It's the county's job to check them out, not yours. It's the authorities job to check them out, not yours.

I agree.

not mine because I am not the employer, just a customer. It is the employers job to check them out and the government’s job to make sure the employer does it

Correct. When somebody sneaks into our country and gets a job, lock up the American, and let the illegal live peacefully in their sanctuary city.

No, send the illegal back and then fine the American

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Yet Trump ignores the other end of the chain because those are his donors

I must have missed it. What and where is the comprehensive immigration reform bill which President Donald Trump has refused to sign and has vetoed?

There are already laws on the books which put forth the punishment for hiring illegals. No new laws or bills needed....just enforce the laws we already have.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Not sure if I agree with that.

Unless you are making the case that a business owner is knowingly, intentionally contacting people in Mexico, and saying openly if they come, he'll pay them illegally....... then I don't see that as being the same thing.

No, they are not contacting people in Mexico, but the people in Mexico know if they come people will hire them. Those people that are more than willing to hire them are why they come.

If someone shows up.... and asks for a job.... and I have nothing more to do with it, than determining if I wish to hire someone.....

Then that to me is not the same. It's not the job of a business owner to filter out people who should not be in the country to begin with. It's not the business owners job to control the border. It's not the business owners job to enforce immigration laws.

It is the Federal Governments job to protect the nations borders, by controlling who enters the country. It's a fundamental duty of the government, to do that.

As for requiring that business is responsible for enforcing immigration controls, this is another area, where if you flipped it around on yourself, you would never accept such logic.

Few years back, had a guy knock on my door, and ask if I wanted my back deck painted. Am I now responsible for doing a background check and determine if he is legal to work?

Say a guy asks if you if he can wash your car, or mow your lawn, or black top your drive way, or shingle your roof. Do you pay money to do a full background and I-9 lookup to determine his legal status?

Should you be tossed into jail, or fined thousands of dollars, if the guy you hired to do any of those things, turned out to be illegal?

You would never tolerate such unfair punishment against yourself. And of course not. Why would you be required to do these things?

Well what is the difference between you directly hiring a guy to mow your lawn twice a month for cash, and you hiring a lawn service that hires a guy to mow your lawn?

The only difference is, you can track with paperwork, the business owner. But otherwise they are identical actions.

So should we toss you in jail for hiring someone, who turned out to be illegal? I don't think so.

Maybe the authorities that are in charge of enforcing the law, should be the authorities who enforce the law. That's my view.

Unless you can absolutely prove that a business owner is intentionally aiding and encouraging violation of the law. Then I'm with you.

To answer all of that, yes, it is the employers responsibility to know if the person they are hiring is legal to work in this country.

I would never hire someone to do the work you mentioned without some sort of a check on them, if you do you are a fool. And not even just for immigration status. If you let people that walk up and knock on your door do work in and around your house without checking them out...you are just begging for problems.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

You might be begging for problems either way.

Court Rules Illegal Aliens Can Sue over “Discriminatory Employment Policy” Requiring Green Cards - Judicial Watch

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Not sure if I agree with that.

Unless you are making the case that a business owner is knowingly, intentionally contacting people in Mexico, and saying openly if they come, he'll pay them illegally....... then I don't see that as being the same thing.

No, they are not contacting people in Mexico, but the people in Mexico know if they come people will hire them. Those people that are more than willing to hire them are why they come.

If someone shows up.... and asks for a job.... and I have nothing more to do with it, than determining if I wish to hire someone.....

Then that to me is not the same. It's not the job of a business owner to filter out people who should not be in the country to begin with. It's not the business owners job to control the border. It's not the business owners job to enforce immigration laws.

It is the Federal Governments job to protect the nations borders, by controlling who enters the country. It's a fundamental duty of the government, to do that.

As for requiring that business is responsible for enforcing immigration controls, this is another area, where if you flipped it around on yourself, you would never accept such logic.

Few years back, had a guy knock on my door, and ask if I wanted my back deck painted. Am I now responsible for doing a background check and determine if he is legal to work?

Say a guy asks if you if he can wash your car, or mow your lawn, or black top your drive way, or shingle your roof. Do you pay money to do a full background and I-9 lookup to determine his legal status?

Should you be tossed into jail, or fined thousands of dollars, if the guy you hired to do any of those things, turned out to be illegal?

You would never tolerate such unfair punishment against yourself. And of course not. Why would you be required to do these things?

Well what is the difference between you directly hiring a guy to mow your lawn twice a month for cash, and you hiring a lawn service that hires a guy to mow your lawn?

The only difference is, you can track with paperwork, the business owner. But otherwise they are identical actions.

So should we toss you in jail for hiring someone, who turned out to be illegal? I don't think so.

Maybe the authorities that are in charge of enforcing the law, should be the authorities who enforce the law. That's my view.

Unless you can absolutely prove that a business owner is intentionally aiding and encouraging violation of the law. Then I'm with you.

To answer all of that, yes, it is the employers responsibility to know if the person they are hiring is legal to work in this country.

I would never hire someone to do the work you mentioned without some sort of a check on them, if you do you are a fool. And not even just for immigration status. If you let people that walk up and knock on your door do work in and around your house without checking them out...you are just begging for problems.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

I've used people like that numerous times.

I mow my own lawn, but my lawn Chem company has a license to operator from the county, thus they have been checked out by the county.

There you go. It's the county's job to check them out, not yours. It's the authorities job to check them out, not yours.

I agree.

not mine because I am not the employer, just a customer. It is the employers job to check them out and the government’s job to make sure the employer does it

Correct. When somebody sneaks into our country and gets a job, lock up the American, and let the illegal live peacefully in their sanctuary city.

No, send the illegal back and then fine the American

Unfortunately not that easy. We don't deport most illegals simply for being here. We "may" deport them for criminal activity.

You want to place the responsibility on the employers when local police departments refuse to cooperate with ICE, allow sanctuary cities and states, allow them to get drivers licenses, allow their children to go to our schools, but fine and even jail employers who hire them.

Well did you ever think that perhaps if Republicans gain enough power, and get enough judges in the system, we can start working on pressuring these cities and states to do their part in providing a deterrent to them being here?

 

[initforme]

I place 99 percent of the blame on employers. If they double their wages Americans might do those jobs.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Even had picked food generallydoes not go directly from field to table

There are warehouses, wholesalers and retailers in the food chain, plus, transportation, insurance, and other business expenses

Right, and if we are talking about the effects of minimum wage overall, it would effect every single employee, at every step in the process. The guy driving the forklift getting pallets off the truck, is going to get paid more if the minimum wage goes up.

I thought we were talking about what it would cost to replace illegal alien fruit pickers who make very low wages with American citizens who will not work that cheap

It may be that Americans will not do those jobs at any price thanks to welfare making too many low income people allergic to hard physical labor

If so we can have a guest workers program where MEN and only men are allowed in the US to work on farms

Then in that case, it would drastically increase prices. No matter how crappy the job, there is an American willing to do that job at some price point. The question is how high is that price point?

And eventually if the price is high enough, it will end up automated.

But in labor intensive production, if you replace those immigrants with Americans, the price will go up drastically.

I dont mind paying more for labor in a free market if the workers are Americans

But you do mind paying more. Everyone does. Are you really trying to say that you would buy the exact same amount of any given good or service, if the price was doubled? Of course not. That's not even logically possible, as the amount of money you have doesn't magically double with the price of the goods.

I don't go to Chipotle anymore, because now that is $7 for a cheap burrito, it's not worth it.

Increasing price always has a negative effect on people purchasing. It's a bit ridiculous to claim otherwise.

At times it does and times it doesn't. McDonald's and Burger King kept decreasing the quality of their ingredients to keep prices low. Wendy's and KFC have the same quality of food they had 25 years ago, but you're going to pay for it.

A big mac combo is in the $6.00 area. A double Wendy's combo is just under $10.00, and maybe over that depending on where you go. Yet anytime I pass by our Wendy's here, the line is always long and plenty of cars parked for the folks dining in. And actually, their drive-thru is much faster than the other two places.

There are still customers that look for quality, but in general, people choose the cheaper product for most of their purchases.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Who is bringing the illegals here?

Business owners that are will to pay them when they get here

Do you have clear direct evidence that business owners are intentionally bringing illegals into the country, in direct violation of the law? I honestly can't even imagine that many business owners would pay thousands on thousands of dollars, and risk losing everything they have, to get a few minimum wage workers picking fruit or something.

Read what I wrote...they are bringing them here BY paying them when they get here. If nobody would hire them they would not come. They are every bit as responsible as the coyote that leads them through the dessert

That's just one reason some come. Not everybody is coming here to work. Dropping anchor babies would probably fall in the same category.

It's estimated by some we have over 20 million illegals in this country. I find it hard to believe nearly all 20 million are working illegally in the US.

Dont forget the gang bangers who come here to rob, rape and kill

Most people don't understand how dangerous anchor babies are to this country. There is a scheme going on called birther tourism. The Chinese in particular send their pregnant women here to have American children. Then they return to China to raise the children to government specs. Now I understand the Islamists are starting to play the game. In any case, when they turn of age, these potential radicals could walk through our front door unquestioned. They are American citizens after all, and who knows what kind of harm they intend to cause us. And yes, as American citizens, they are free to purchase any kind of legal firearms.

 

[beagle9]

You are both right and wrong.

Medicare reimbursement rates, that is Medicare approved amounts (which for part B is 80% from Medicare and 20% from the patient) is determined based on the relative, average costs of providing a service to a Medicare patient, and then adjusted to account for other provider expenses, including malpractice insurance and office-based practice costs.

Contrary to claims of a lot of people, Medicare rates are not determined by what insurance companies pay. It's actually the opposite in most cases because most insurance reimbursements today is paid to contracted providers. The medicare reimbursement rate provides a basis for negotiating contracts which makes Medicare and Insurance reimbursement rates pretty close in most places.

Getting back to the question at hand, for many years many healthcare providers would bill patients for the difference between Medicare rates and their fee . If a doctor accepted Medicare as full payment, they were "Accepting Medicare Assignment". At one time, about 25% of doctors would not accept Medicare Assignment and would bill the patient the difference. Today, due to the fact there is little difference between insurance reimbursement rates and Medicare and the number of Medicare patients, about 95% of doctors today accept Medicare Assignment. Thus patients rarely see any bill if they pay their 20% coinsurance at time service or have insurance supplement.

That's actually kind of the law. But my point is, they have to raise their rates on everybody, so it's a primary factor in private insurance premiums going up. But this is why when you see health facilities close down, they are usually in lower income areas where most of the patients are government patients and there are little to no private pay patients. There is nobody to make up the loss on.

When I got into the business back in 1979, Medicare was a gold mine for my company. It was like they were flushed with money. All you had to do is send them a bill, and they paid it no questions asked. As the funds started to show signs of weakness, that's when they started lowering their reimbursement rates. So what did we do? We raised the price of renting our hospital equipment, and again, you can't just raise it on one group of payers, you have to raise it on everybody.

Medicare is not self- supportive either. They are subsidized with money from the general fund, and of course, always trying to use as little as possible.

The whole entire problem in it all, is that we have an irresponsible government that got involved with the attempted social engineering of society. The bad part is, is that it was using our tax dollars without our permission, to then throw those free dollars into the communities that inturn used it to create more and more dependents that ultimately needed more and more funds to sustain the level of births that were coming out of those communities.

Ok so what was that all about ? Trying to grow a servitude population in thought of, otherwise that it would then continue to breed cheap labor for factories, farms, and etc ????

Ok then along comes the Clinton's and their gang of merry bandits, who supported NAFTA, and the shipping of American's jobs all over the world. Then we basically had huge amounts of excess labor that had no where to go. Next our own citizen's had to either become huge government dependents, drug dealers, users, cheap labor or ended up in jail....... Meanwhile China, Mexico etc were becoming either super powers or filthy rich off of us. The results today, and the facts don't lie.

Trump comes in and attempts to restore our national strength, pride, and worth, while the enemies within fight him tooth and nail.

Wake up America

That is a misassumption

Farm labor represents only a tiny portion of the price of food in the grocery store

$8-$15 an hour would add a little but not as much as you think if we limit the same food imports from mexico where they also pay low wages

False. You changed the context in the middle of the debate. The prior poster referred to Migrant pickers, while you referred to "portion of the price of food". There are many foods, like wheat for example, that are not picked by hand by migrants.

Foods which are more automated, like potatoes for example, you as the consumer opening a bag of potato chips, might be the very first human hand to have ever touched that potato. They are pulled from the ground, sorted, shipped, skinned, cut, fried, seasoned, baked, packed and sealed, without a single human hand touching them.

In that specific situation, your claim would be correct, that the value would not directly increase in relation to the wages.

However, there are numerous other things that are picked by hand, in labor intensive farming. Apples, peppers, asparagus, grapes, cherries, and so on. Increasing the labor rates for these things, would easily increase the cost of them by a ton.

Limiting imports of food, is a horrifically bad idea.

Right now the US is a net exporter of food. The amount of food we import, is a tiny fraction of the amount we export. Starting a trade war with food, will hurt the US more than anyone else.

So it's about exports and profits in some sectors, but at what cost to the entire nation ?? Yes in certain sectors we have great growth and expansion, where as in other sectors we have stalemate and huge losses.

So who or what can create a balance in it all, and restore our faith in this nation again ?

Isn't this what Trump has been doing, attempting to bring back prosperity to the nation, and to stop allowing the nation to be taken advantage of ??? What's wrong with protectionism to some degree, otherwise if it restores balance and strength in America again ?? Many of our industries could turn within (provided the nation limits foriegn competition against them), and they would profit the same or even better if it didn't have foriegn competitors driving their prices into the tank, and in many cases taking them completely out of the picture.

I don't believe in trying to create mythology of some magic damage to the entire nation.

Faith in the nation come from doing what is right, rolling with punches, and overcoming obstacles.

As long as people land in the US, knowing nothing of our culture, barely speak our language, and have the ability to become successful..... then no American should ever question their faith in this country.

The immigrant who became a drone firm boss

This Mexican, not only came here with little to nothing, but he also didn't have his work permit yet. He setup an international drone manufacturing company.

If that dude can come here and succeed.... then no American, from Alaska to Florida, from Mississippi to California, has any excuse for not having faith in this country.

Get off your butt..... and do something with your life.
Stop whining about trade, and whining about jobs, and whining about NAFTA and all this other BS crap.... and do something. Put your butt in gear, and go make something of yourself.

My roommate came here from Bangladesh, and worked odd jobs, and low paying jobs for years. Last year, he landed a job with a months vacation, $120K a year income, and they paid to have him move to Chicago from Ohio.

Chamath Palihapitiya came here from Sri Lanka, and his unemployed father lived on welfare for sometime before landing a job.
This guy is now a venture capitalist.

13 successful tech leaders who struggled as immigrants before making it in America

Over and over and over..... people come from around the world, and succeed here. And born bred Americans, that can each speak words without people going "I'm sorry, what?", can't succeed because of NAFTA and trade and all this crap?
Then..... HOW THE HECK ARE THEY DOING IT??!?

This argument right here, really irritates me. I know a guy from Somalia, that came here, got a CDL, started driving truck. Saved up all his cash, to buy a truck of his own. Saved up his cash from that, and bought a second truck, and paid someone to drive it. He now has a fleet of 6 trucks.

How is this so utterly impossible for Americans to succeed, and yet all these immigrants who apparently don't know they can't succeed yet.... come here and succeed?

If there is someone unemployed... the problem is in their mirror. The problem isn't trade, it's not immigration, it's not who is president (yet), and so on.... Mirror. There's your problem.

If you only knew my status, you would be embarrassed to write such bullcrap to me, much less insinuate bullcrap like you just did. Quit selling your country down the river, and quit justifying all the bullcrap you keep justifying when American's no better.

Well, I'm referring more generally.


But regardless of your specific status.... if I can look around and see dozens of examples of people who come here from other countries and succeed..... I simply do not buy the idea that Americans can't.

I'm sorry.... it just isn't true. Phil Robertson, was a drunk working at a bar. He started whittling duck callers, and now is a wealthy business owner.

Was it easy? Of course not. He was driving around in his pickup, trying to sell these things to stores, and they would laugh at his face, and walk him to the door.

But he kept at it, until he became a success.

That's the reality.

The solution to our problems is people getting up off the ground, and working towards success. Not somehow trying to prevent others from being successful, in hopes it will make you more successful.

Working against stacked decks is a very bad thing, and that's what politicians have been doing to us for way to long now. Yes your story about ground up successes is true in America's past, but in certain enviroments created today, it makes it almost impossible or it destroys the foundations or building blocks of success in this nation. Faster and faster it goes, and where it stops nobody knows.

 

[BWK]

Who is bringing the illegals here?

Business owners that are will to pay them when they get here

Do you have clear direct evidence that business owners are intentionally bringing illegals into the country, in direct violation of the law? I honestly can't even imagine that many business owners would pay thousands on thousands of dollars, and risk losing everything they have, to get a few minimum wage workers picking fruit or something.

Read what I wrote...they are bringing them here BY paying them when they get here. If nobody would hire them they would not come. They are every bit as responsible as the coyote that leads them through the dessert

Not sure if I agree with that.

Unless you are making the case that a business owner is knowingly, intentionally contacting people in Mexico, and saying openly if they come, he'll pay them illegally....... then I don't see that as being the same thing.

If someone shows up.... and asks for a job.... and I have nothing more to do with it, than determining if I wish to hire someone.....

Then that to me is not the same. It's not the job of a business owner to filter out people who should not be in the country to begin with. It's not the business owners job to control the border. It's not the business owners job to enforce immigration laws.

It is the Federal Governments job to protect the nations borders, by controlling who enters the country. It's a fundamental duty of the government, to do that.

As for requiring that business is responsible for enforcing immigration controls, this is another area, where if you flipped it around on yourself, you would never accept such logic.

Few years back, had a guy knock on my door, and ask if I wanted my back deck painted. Am I now responsible for doing a background check and determine if he is legal to work?

Say a guy asks if you if he can wash your car, or mow your lawn, or black top your drive way, or shingle your roof. Do you pay money to do a full background and I-9 lookup to determine his legal status?

Should you be tossed into jail, or fined thousands of dollars, if the guy you hired to do any of those things, turned out to be illegal?

You would never tolerate such unfair punishment against yourself. And of course not. Why would you be required to do these things?

Well what is the difference between you directly hiring a guy to mow your lawn twice a month for cash, and you hiring a lawn service that hires a guy to mow your lawn?

The only difference is, you can track with paperwork, the business owner. But otherwise they are identical actions.

So should we toss you in jail for hiring someone, who turned out to be illegal? I don't think so.

Maybe the authorities that are in charge of enforcing the law, should be the authorities who enforce the law. That's my view.

Unless you can absolutely prove that a business owner is intentionally aiding and encouraging violation of the law. Then I'm with you.

Maybe congress should not get paid till it solves the illegal alien problem

We already have. We just decided to do nothing about it. CIA in South America | Geopolitical Monitor