Am I losing my faith or just becoming more realistic?

[Meriweather]

The problem is, of course, is that a lot of the really horrible stories in the Bible, the Churches kept hidden from us. For instance, I never heard of Jephthah the Gileadite until I started hanging in Atheist circles. (He's the "mighty man of God" who made a foolish vow and then butchered his only daughter as a burnt offering to Yahweh.)

Yet I am quite familiar with the story.

 

[Meriweather]

But how these myths have been used to propagate bad behavior for centuries is telling.

Yes, we see your example of it right here. Meanwhile, those who have done any study at all see for themselves what you are still missing.

 

[rylah]

Actually, what I am doing is following the spiritual aspects of the Bible without getting caught up in accounts of ancient history whether they be presented in the Disney version or the Monster version. Mankind (think Aesop) has always concocted stories to illustrate truths.

Let's take Aesop. If I get caught up on whether it is possible for animals to even know what a race is, let alone participate in one--and an inter species race at that--the point of the story flies off over my head. The same is true of Bible stories. To me it seems odd that you allow yourself to be entangled with the 'chaff' or as Jesus once put it, to strain out the gnat and swallow the camel.

There's a big difference. No one was ever burned at the stake for doubting Aesop's fables. No one is threatening anyone with hellfire for all eternity because they doubted a Hare and a Turtle could agree to have a race.

The problem is, of course, is that a lot of the really horrible stories in the Bible, the Churches kept hidden from us. For instance, I never heard of Jephthah the Gileadite until I started hanging in Atheist circles. (He's the "mighty man of God" who made a foolish vow and then butchered his only daughter as a burnt offering to Yahweh.)

A worse example would be how religious education handles the Story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes, it's been used as the Biblical excuse for homophobia for centuries, but they always leave out the part where Lot gets drunk and bangs both of his daughters after he had offered them up for gang rape by the mob. You do get the cute part where poor Mrs. Lot (probably the only decent character in the story) looks back and gets turned into a pillar of salt.)

Now, yeah, these are myths, to explain why certain cities were abandoned, or why a certain area has a shitload of salt in it. But how these myths have been used to propagate bad behavior for centuries is telling.

For shallow minds,
shallow conclusions.

Jephtah's daughter wasn't physically sacrificed, rather turned ascetic.
Lot wasn't awake when his daughters bore his seed, and there was a righteous intention behind their action - they thought the entire world was devastated, that they're the last remaining women on earth, and their father the only man left. The world was created for there to be life and the first commandment ever given to humanity is to multiply and fill the earth, and for all they knew, there was no other way to fulfill that.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

A worse example would be how religious education handles the Story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes, it's been used as the Biblical excuse for homophobia for centuries, but they always leave out the part where Lot gets drunk and bangs both of his daughters after he had offered them up for gang rape by the mob

Why is it the God Haters use these examples as if they are teachings from God.

Much of the Bible is simply HISTORY -- UNEDITED, GOOD WITH THE BAD -- HISTORY.

Because God RECORDED human behaviour for all time DOES NOT mean God approves of a behaviour.

God recorded that Cain murdered his brother. What moron would assume that means Christian's should murder their brothers?

You God haters are pathetic in your ignorance.

Please try to be at li east a little honest

 

[BreezeWood]

A worse example would be how religious education handles the Story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes, it's been used as the Biblical excuse for homophobia for centuries, but they always leave out the part where Lot gets drunk and bangs both of his daughters after he had offered them up for gang rape by the mob

Why is it the God Haters use these examples as if they are teachings from God.

Much of the Bible is simply HISTORY -- UNEDITED, GOOD WITH THE BAD -- HISTORY.

Because God RECORDED human behaviour for all time DOES NOT mean God approves of a behaviour.

God recorded that Cain murdered his brother. What moron would assume that means Christian's should murder their brothers?

You God haters are pathetic in your ignorance.

Please try to be at li east a little honest

.

You God haters are pathetic in your ignorance.

that is christians that associate their forged 4th century bible as a religion that has an uninterrupted history of persecution and victimization of the innocent who are pathetic - and continue without remorse.

 

[Meriweather]

There's a big difference.

Here is another big difference. What if we decided not to stay current with science, but were determined we could never trust any scientist because scientists once believed life could exist on the sun, and lambs could grow out of the ground (turned out it was cotton), and iron could turn to gold. More recently, but still decades ago "scientific" articles showed why the use of snowblowers was less in July. Today, would you suggest I study science under the tutelage of the Flat Earth Society?

Religion, like science, has grown in the past five decades, and both have grown spectacularly from what it was thousands of years ago.

 

[sealybobo]

According to the Jesuit author of the book, bad things that happen to us are not a test. Bad things happen, and there is no reason for them.

I read another book about the volcanic explosion that destroyed Pompei. The author makes the point that the people of Pompei did not die because they deserved it, or failed to make some sacrifice to the gods, they died because volcanos explode and what we do in this life has no effect on that.

A religious person would tell you this life is a blink of an eye compared to the afterlife and to not lose faith just because bad things are going to happen to all of us eventually.

the quadriplegic needs to believe in a heaven.

 

[sealybobo]

Humans have this tendency to believe that natural disasters, illnesses, accidents, etc. happen because we did something bad, or because God is testing us, or that somehow our actions caused them to happen.

The point of the Jesuit priest is that none of this is true.

And if God is not responsible for the things that happen in this universe, then he can't fix things no matter how much we pray to him.

Which is the opposite of what Jesus taught, I think.

God they say won’t do anything for you here but after you die comes your reward

 

[zaangalewa]

... Actually, I've had a lot of discussions with religious types about the Flood Myth,

The story of Noah and the ark is written in a way so every child understands what's written there.

and none of them came up with an explanation about how a supposedly "Good" God would need to drown every baby in the world that didn't sound just as fucked up as what Sister Mary Butch came up with.

View attachment 311020

With this ugly propagandistic attack against a female representative of the holy catholic church you show very well what your own decision is. You don't like to work together with your people to try to do gods will and to save all and every life. Your choice is death - and perhaps you wonder why others have the feeling your future is dead.

If you really like to understand this story let children explain you the story of Noahs ark - and buy finally this little damned dog or/and visit a nice zoo with them, or a national park and/or support all fighters for the life of the whales, Captain Ahab.

 

[BULLDOG]

Humans have this tendency to believe that natural disasters, illnesses, accidents, etc. happen because we did something bad, or because God is testing us, or that somehow our actions caused them to happen.

The point of the Jesuit priest is that none of this is true.

And if God is not responsible for the things that happen in this universe, then he can't fix things no matter how much we pray to him.

Which is the opposite of what Jesus taught, I think.

God they say won’t do anything for you here but after you die comes your reward

Not what the Bible says
Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. (Jo. 14:13-14)

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, we see your example of it right here. Meanwhile, those who have done any study at all see for themselves what you are still missing.

We don't use the term "Sodomite" to describe an inhospitable host. We use it to describe someone who likes the Butt Sex.

Remember, Lot, the guy who offered his daughters up for gang rape, and then had drunken sex with them himself, was the guy God had to save because he was going to punish this whole town.

Yet I am quite familiar with the story.

Are you? How do you explain it and still be consistent with the notion that Yahweh is a benevolent being? Jephthah prays to God. He offers the first thing he encounters on his return home as a sacrifice. He slaughters thousands of Ammonites (who are again, the descendents of Lot after he fucked one of his daughters...) with God's help, then his daughter is the one who comes out to greet him, and dammit, they are going to sacrifice this kid no matter what.

Here is another big difference. What if we decided not to stay current with science, but were determined we could never trust any scientist because scientists once believed life could exist on the sun, and lambs could grow out of the ground (turned out it was cotton), and iron could turn to gold. More recently, but still decades ago "scientific" articles showed why the use of snowblowers was less in July. Today, would you suggest I study science under the tutelage of the Flat Earth Society?

If scientists still believed that stuff (which they never did) and insisted that other people believe it to, and preached it every Sunday, then, yes, I probably wouldn't trust them, either.

 

[JoeB131]

For shallow minds,
shallow conclusions.

Jephtah's daughter wasn't physically sacrificed, rather turned ascetic.

Um, no, the original Hebrew was "olah", which means "Burnt offering". For most of history, this wasn't in dispute. The thinking of Rabbinic and early Christian Scholars was that Jephthah sacrificed his daughter, and that it was an example of the lawlessness and depravity of Israel in the time of the Judges. The Disneyfied version of her dedicating her life to being a nun or some such shit (which really isn't much better, why should she give up family and love because her Dad promised something stupid to God?) is something the Fundies came up with when people started questioning Yahweh's role in the story.

Virgin...the other white Meat!

Lot wasn't awake when his daughters bore his seed, and there was a righteous intention behind their action - they thought the entire world was devastated, that they're the last remaining women on earth, and their father the only man left. The world was created for there to be life and the first commandment ever given to humanity is to multiply and fill the earth, and for all they knew, there was no other way to fulfill that.

Okay, here are some problems with that argument. First, the story indicated that they had lived in the city of Zoar for quite some time. Then they moved out of Zoar after the destruction of Sodom

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

They lived in Zoar long enough to acquire enough wine to get poor old Lot drunk out of his mind, twice. (We could also argue the improbability of an elderly man getting an erection when drunk out of his mind, or knocking up two girls after only have sex with each once, but never mind.) But they already knew they weren't the last people on Earth, they had just been in Zoar and there were plenty of people there.

Why is it the God Haters use these examples as if they are teachings from God.

Much of the Bible is simply HISTORY -- UNEDITED, GOOD WITH THE BAD -- HISTORY.

Because God RECORDED human behaviour for all time DOES NOT mean God approves of a behaviour.

Okay, let's look at that. Did God approve of Lot's behavior? Mind you, God dispatched TWO ANGELS to warn Lot of Sodom's impending destruction. Those same two angels just sat by when Lot OFFERED HIS DAUGHTERS UP FOR GANG RAPE. The angels then arranged for Lot and his Family to escape Sodom, before poor Mrs. Lot looked back and got turned into a condiment.

So God had no problem with Lot fucking his daughters or offering them up for Gang Rape. In fact, even the New Testament describes Lot as "Righteous". The people of Sodom, even the children, all deserved to die, and Mrs. Lot got turned into salt for merely looking back when everything she knew was being destroyed. So God's moral judgement is REALLY clear in this story.

Homosexuality bad... incest good.

 

[zaangalewa]

Humans have this tendency to believe that natural disasters, illnesses, accidents, etc. happen because we did something bad, or because God is testing us, or that somehow our actions caused them to happen.

The point of the Jesuit priest is that none of this is true.

And if God is not responsible for the things that happen in this universe, then he can't fix things no matter how much we pray to him.

Which is the opposite of what Jesus taught, I think.

God they say won’t do anything for you here but after you die comes your reward

Not what the Bible says
Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. (Jo. 14:13-14)

What's by the way indeed a problem sometimes. It's always good to know what to ask for in his name. And don't forget this:

-----
And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and, kneeling before him, said, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he has seizures and he suffers terribly. For often he falls into the fire, and often into the water. And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” And Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly. Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”
-----

-----

 

[zaangalewa]

JoeB131

Where from comes your totally stupid hate against Christians? Why do you think it is important for all people not to believe in god?

Example: What you call "butt sex" is for example no sex at all. A butt is part of the digestive organs of human beings. So called "butt sex" is a main reason for a faster wide spread of dangerous viruses. In relativelly little populations such an absurde behavior is extremly dangerous for all members of this little populations - what explains very well the death penalty in this context in the bronce age. So what's your problem? Today don't exist such laws any longer. In the opposite the most Christians in the world agree to forbid death penalty worlwide in all countries.

 

[JoeB131]

Where from comes your totally stupid hate against Christians? Why do you think it is important for all people not to believe in god?

I think the best thing that could happen is the abolition of religion.

Example: What you call "butt sex" is for example no sex at all. A butt is part of the digestive organs of human beings. So called "butt sex" is a main reason for a faster wide spread of dangerous viruses.

Okay.. you do realize that 37% of straights do anal sex, and 99% of straight people do oral sex, right? So the mouth is also part of the digestive system... and in the case of you, the butthole and the mouth are interchangeable components.

In relativelly little populations such an absurde behavior is extremly dangerous for all members of this little populations - what explains very well the death penalty in this context in the bronce age. So what's your problem? Today don't exist such laws any longer. In the opposite the most Christians in the world agree to forbid death penalty worlwide in all countries.

Guy, it had to do with their sexual hangups...

YOu all need to get over yourselves.

 

[Meriweather]

How do you explain it and still be consistent with the notion that Yahweh is a benevolent being?

The story is about a man who did a few things wrong. The Bible is clear in several places--that God does not wish such sacrifices. He is not after burnt offerings or rent garments. The only sacrifice acceptable to Him is a contrite heart.

Our ancestors were great storytellers. And what makes a great story then as well as today is sin. The story is about the sin. People of the day understood that. It was a story about making an oath that should not have been made, and then compounding that sin by actually caring it out. It is about a man's pride--a pride so great that he would kill his own daughter rather than admit to his sin.

Rabbis strongly believe and recommend: Scripture is to be studied, not read. Study. Stop twisting the intent of the original author into your own dogma. Again, you reject your made-up dogma--and so does everyone else. You do not believe in God, and I get that. What is hard to understand is the need to excuse that lack of belief by twisting Biblical stories and teachings.

You know what mystifies me about the story of Lot? The family was fleeing in haste, but apparently of prime importance to Lot was to bring along plenty of wine. Ever think about that?

 

[JoeB131]

The story is about a man who did a few things wrong. The Bible is clear in several places--that God does not wish such sacrifices. He is not after burnt offerings or rent garments. The only sacrifice acceptable to Him is a contrite heart.

But yet he accepted Jephthah's offering. IN fact, Jephthah and his daughter were so fearful of Yahweh's wrath that she meekly went along with being butchered and burnt after spending 30 days mourning about never, ever getting laid.

Our ancestors were great storytellers. And what makes a great story then as well as today is sin. The story is about the sin. People of the day understood that. It was a story about making an oath that should not have been made, and then compounding that sin by actually caring it out. It is about a man's pride--a pride so great that he would kill his own daughter rather than admit to his sin.

Except that God REWARDED that sin. He fulfilled Jephthah's request to help him slaughter the Ammonites. He accepted the burnt offering of Jephthah's daughter. Jephthah went on to continue to be Judge of Israel, including an episode where he slaughtered thousands of his fellow Hebrews for not kissing his backside sufficiently. ALL OF WHICH GOD was fine with. Didn't smite him even a little bit.

Rabbis strongly believe and recommend: Scripture is to be studied, not read. Study. Stop twisting the intent of the original author into your own dogma. Again, you reject your made-up dogma--and so does everyone else. You do not believe in God, and I get that. What is hard to understand is the need to excuse that lack of belief by twisting Biblical stories and teachings.

Because you guys don't think through the implications.

To the Author of the book of Judges, (and for that matter, most of the Old Testament) "God" was any force of nature that they didn't understand but plagued mankind. God was not a being that loved you, he was a random force of nature that needed to be appeased. No promises of an afterlife, just a promise to not kill you with pestilence or invasion or locust.

Today we can control pestilence and locust, so God needs to be something more. He needs to be a being that loves all mankind, not just this one miserable tribe that Yahweh seemed to delight in tormenting.

You guys offer the bible as proof of God's love.. but man, you hide Jephthah like he's that crazy Uncle who went to prison for all the bodies they found under the house.

You know what mystifies me about the story of Lot? The family was fleeing in haste, but apparently of prime importance to Lot was to bring along plenty of wine. Ever think about that?

No, not at all. Because it wasn't a straight line between Sodom and the Cave. Lot and his daugthers settled in the city of Zoar, as quoted above in verse 19:30 and then moved to the cave because they didn't feel safe there. We have to assume the provisioned themselves before they left.

 

[Meriweather]

You guys offer the bible as proof of God's love.. but man, you hide Jephthah like he's that crazy Uncle who went to prison for all the bodies they found under the house.

Jephthah isn't hidden. Once again, your assessment of that story is definitely not from the Hebrew or from Rabbis, but your own conclusions. Leave me out of "you guys". I've long been in favor of telling people they need to have their own experience of God and then read the Bible. A study of the Hebrew language and ancient history and cultures is also very helpful.

 

[JoeB131]

Jephthah isn't hidden. Once again, your assessment of that story is definitely not from the Hebrew or from Rabbis, but your own conclusions. Leave me out of "you guys". I've long been in favor of telling people they need to have their own experience of God and then read the Bible. A study of the Hebrew language and ancient history and cultures is also very helpful.

Sure it is. 12 years of Catholic School, I never heard the story once. You could go to your church and as 100 congregants, and they'll all look at you blankly if you ask about the story. You know, the time God was okay with a Virgin Sacrifice.

The only story the Frustrated Lesbians in Habits told from the Book of Judges is the Story of Sampson and how he got his hair cut. Once again, a Disneyfied version of a character who would have found a kindred soul in Osama Bin Laden.

 

[Meriweather]

You could go to your church and as 100 congregants, and they'll all look at you blankly if you ask about the story.

Shrug. Perhaps I pay more attention, or perhaps it is because I am often at daily Mass. Anyway, I was interested enough in the story to do some research.