America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Fort Fun Indiana]

All products of a Christian people.

So are turds pinched off by Christians. That doesn't make them Christian turds. So no, that doesn't make your point.


Oh, and your terrible attempt is a shameless lie anyway, as, no, they were not all Christians.

Ding, you have been all over this board throwing your embarrassing little tantrums and telling people to go fuck themselves all night. And now you whine about manners? Goddamn, you mental midget.. is there ANYTHING you won't whine about?

 

[ding]

All products of a Christian people.

So are turds pinched off by Christians. That doesn't make them Christian turds. So no, that doesn't make your point.


Oh, and your terrible attempt is a shameless lie anyway, as, no, they were not all Christians.

Ding, you have been all over this board throwing your embarrassing little tantrums and telling people to go fuck themselves all night. And now you whine about manners? Goddamn, you mental midget.. is there ANYTHING you won't whine about?

Do you know what the founding statements of the first universities were?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23945354

Your point was to infer that I was arguing for a theocracy.

i never ever dreamed of accusing you of arguing for a theocracy. There is no argument there. Anyone who thinks you are is absurd

My argument is in large part related to crediting the actual Founders along with an emphasis on their education and intellects and rational minds for doing the actual work that was done to establish a nation that was designed by their collective, - genius - Being here at the right place and time,

I in no way intended to exclude the role of personal religion in each one of those brilliant minds. But I think someone needs to challenge the mindset that by virtue of the religious majority of Protestant Christians being ‘present’
at a unique juncture in time means that one that particular religion gets all the credit in a ‘thread title’ insisting that America was Founded as a Christian Nation.

What do you say our legal institutions and jurisprudence are based on?

 

[ding]

At the time of Founding, Natural Law from Nature’s God.

They all believed it. Even Thomas Jefferson.

 

[ding]

Natural Law: The Ultimate Source of Constitutional Law. The Founders DID NOT establish the Constitution for the purpose of granting rights. Rather, they established this government of laws (not a government of men) in order to secure each person's Creator endowed rights to life, liberty, and property.

Natural Law: The Ultimate Source of Constitutional Law

One of the intellectual traditions which stands behind modern classical liberalism is that of natural law and natural rights. This tradition emerged in the 17th and 18th centuries and argues that the world is governed by natural laws which are discoverable by human reason. Human beings, because of their particular natures have a number of natural rights, or what Tom Paine described as “imprescriptible rights”. According to the founding fathers of the American constitution these rights are the right to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness. A key aspect of this intellectual tradition is the notion that natural rights are not created by government but exist anterior to it and that governments are in fact created to “secure these rights.” During the 19th century the natural law/rights traditions was overtaken by English utlitarianism which argued that the government should pursue policies which would do “the greatest good for the greatest number.”

Natural Law and Natural Rights - Online Library of Liberty

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23946921 reply to 23945799

But not credit their belief in a higher power as a powerful motivation to do the right thing, the right way for the right reason?

I was making a point that most of the well educated men with brilliant minds founded a nation and should get the bulk of the credit for their extraordinary accomplishment.

I’m saying, credit the individuals for their work, credit for their common human achievement

You want us instead to give credit to one consensus Protestant Christian majority God worshipped and believed in by the turnip farmer in Lancaster and the candlemaker in Boston, The Methodist preacher in Kilmarnock,

 

[ding]

23946921 reply to 23945799

But not credit their belief in a higher power as a powerful motivation to do the right thing, the right way for the right reason?

I was making a point that most of the well educated men with brilliant minds founded a nation and should get the bulk of the credit for their extraordinary accomplishment.

I’m saying, credit the individuals for their work, credit for their common human achievement

You want us instead to give credit to one consensus Protestant Christian majority God worshipped and believed in by the turnip farmer in Lancaster and the candlemaker in Boston, The Methodist preacher in Kilmarnock,

And I think that is entirely the wrong way of looking at it. The people themselves are the ones who did the heavy lifting of making this country great. Their values, their principles, their beliefs and behaviors is what made America good. That’s straight out of de Tocqueville’s observations.

 

[ding]

23946921 reply to 23945799

But not credit their belief in a higher power as a powerful motivation to do the right thing, the right way for the right reason?

I was making a point that most of the well educated men with brilliant minds founded a nation and should get the bulk of the credit for their extraordinary accomplishment.

I’m saying, credit the individuals for their work, credit for their common human achievement

You want us instead to give credit to one consensus Protestant Christian majority God worshipped and believed in by the turnip farmer in Lancaster and the candlemaker in Boston, The Methodist preacher in Kilmarnock,

I think you are ignoring the influence that Christianity played. From education to law to values and principles Christianity touched every aspect of colonial life.

Hell, if it weren’t for the Christian churches, they wouldn’t have had an army to fight the British. Some say it was the last religious war and they are correct.

 

[ding]

Let’s take today as an example.

Is the war between red and blue because of the political leaders or is it because of we the people.

I say it is because of the people because we accept it. Prove me wrong.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

What do you say our legal institutions and jurisprudence are based on?

It’s irrelevant. Laws that existed to maintain order prior to the written US Constitution and after have s b long history going back to the Catholic Church and before that s well.

Laws can’t found a Nation. Not even Christian Laws. Only men can found a nation.


this is an excellent summary in my opinion,

• Second, the common law of the German, Nordic, and Anglo-Saxon peoples is older than Christianity, but it was Catholicism and Catholics that sanctified it—whether by Alfred the Great and his Witan or the nobles and bishops at Runnymede in 1215, forcing the tyrant King John to sign the Magna Carta. Germanic medievals, broadly understood, recognized the common law—everything from a right to a trial by a jury of one’s peers to the right to be innocent until proven guilty—was older than the “memory of man,” thus being rooted in creation herself, revealed for the first time only when necessary.
  
  Third, it was the very principle of subsidiarity as understood by every Catholic from Augustine through Aquinas through Bellarmine—that the American Protestants so cherished, not just in the religious realm but in the political realm as well. When the pilgrims appealed to it in their Mayflower Compact, they were appealing to a tradition that began in the earliest history of the Catholic Church, and was first and best explained by St. Augustine in his City of God
  
  Natural law, common law, natural rights, and localism—all so dear to the Founding—existed in 1776, simply put, because of the Catholic Church.
  
  July 3, 2019 Bradley J. Birzer
  
  
  

 

[Porter Rockwell]

At the time of Founding, Natural Law from Nature’s God.

They all believed it. Even Thomas Jefferson.

In the Declaration of Independence, was it or was it not Nature's God that is also equated with "Divine Providence?"

"In theology, divine providence, or just providence, is God's intervention in the Universe. The term Divine Providence (usually capitalized) is also used as a title of God"

Divine providence - Wikipedia

But which God? Do the state constitutions of that same period not answer that question? Again, which God, at that time time do you think Thomas Jefferson was referencing?

Within months after Jefferson penned the words to the Declaration of Independence, he is in Virginia working on the state constitution.

"SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Constitution of Virginia, 1776

Jefferson's "separation of church" statement did not come until 1803. So, at this juncture we have 27 years separating these presupposed changes in ideology from Declaration of Independence to a private letter. The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, (the so - called Jefferson Bible) was completed in 1820. That is 44 years after he penned the Declaration of Independence.

Maybe within 20 years after drafting the Declaration of Independence and being subject to a barrage of secularism, it made an impact on the man, but to not listen to biographers who themselves say he was an ambiguous man is sheer folly. I'm about out of steam, beating this dead horse.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

What do you say our legal institutions and jurisprudence are based on?

It’s irrelevant. Laws that existed to maintain order prior to the written US Constitution and after have s b long history going back to the Catholic Church and before that s well.

Laws can’t found a Nation. Not even Christian Laws. Only men can found a nation.

And if you believe that, you didn't have the courage to respond to my questions. Do you think the recent Johnny Come Lately can save you? Do you want me to rehash all the quotes by the other men who were founders / framers that you refused to comment on? Are you THAT anxious to take that beating again just because some misguided troll jumped in after 550 + posts to re-litigate the points that were already refuted?

That was neat the way you tried to backpedal and then reversed yourself the first time another critic shows up - late for the party, refusing to read the first post, much less the thread. He can't help you.

 

[Correll]

Correll, post: 23944049

Your personal opinion that Jefferson was not a "Christian" is utterly irrelevant to anything.

I said he was a Real Christian since those are his own words. it’s not a personal opinion at all.

I also agree that my acceptance that Jefferson was a Real Christian is not the issue:

Jefferson is important to the topic of this thread not because of what he believes, but because of what Porter Rockwell believes about him.

Porter Rockwell cited the same posts as me to prove that Jefferson was a REAL CHRISTIAN.

And Porter Rockwell says Christians should not question whether Christians are Christians.

It’s also important to know that Porter Rockwell does not expect Jefferson and all of similar philosophy and values to belong to a Christian sect or denomination.

So it should be fair to say that Jefferson is a Christian unto himself.

At the time of the founding the dominate denomination in Colonial America was Protestant in some form or the other.

But in the rest of the world the dominate church in all of Christendom was Catholicism.

Protestants in Early America feared and loathed Catholicism. There was no respect for each other’s differences.

Jefferson was non-denominational. definitely outnumbered by Protestants but not Catholics.

Therefore if there is a need to label America’s founding on its religious majority it would have been at that time only proper to say that America was a Protestant Christian Nation.

It would not be accurate on many grounds but mainly because calling it a Christian Nation that was 98% Protestant when the majority of Christians in the world were not Protestant.

And it would not be accurate now just because Jefferson’s Separation of Church and State has enabled Catholics and Protestants to live together in harmony.

Irrelevant quibbling designed to muddle the waters to hide the fact that none of you liberals can refute the point that the Nation was founded as a Christian Nation.

 

[Gdjjr]

I don’t see how that changes the fact that we were founded as a Christian nation

We "formed a more perfect union" is not creating a nation. It was a coming together of sovereign states = plural, as in more than one, which was recognized and called "in order to form a more perfect union"- we weren't "founded"- a constitution was established. A set of rules called laws. A union of sovereign states agreed to the constitution. I say these things because the argument has become an esoteric pissing contest and if we get absolutely technical for discernment. then, by god be totally technical. No where in the preamble was any religion mentioned, or values or virtues- they were of a generic persuasion to explain WHY the constitution was established as the Supreme Law-

 

[Gdjjr]

Obviously christian laws and principles, so believed, failed. You guys are as bad as jews- both claim to be special and neither are- you're just people with strong beliefs- I too am a people and I too have strong beliefs- ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL-
E.V.E.R.Y. one- the Christian god is as malevolent as the Islamist and Jewish god- none are benevolent- as in charitable- none protect - as in take care of- ALL demand the streets will be paved with gold or eternity is spent in fire IF disbelieving- it doesn't matter what who believed when- the experiment concludes, as Jefferson believed, that we can govern ourselves- we get what we deserve- we deserve to be laughed at because of the hypocrites and believers act with Double Standards as their foundation- yes, Christians. I have yet to meet a decent christian and I've been around a long time- only 2 I've met came close- one was very humble the other very clever- BOTH respected me. Neither was dogmatic. Which is what religion AND politics is about- cow the listener with rhetoric- to cow is to coerce- that is threat of force (eternity in fire) by a mighty something or other, preferably a christian something or other since christians are more influenced by streets paved with gold vs virgins- and Jews have their opinion too- it's ALL too esoteric, (intentionally confusing), so that only a few wish to participate- demeaning the non-believer- to demean is to disrespect- begets begets.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23948002

I think you are ignoring the influence that Christianity played. From education to law to values and principles Christianity touched every aspect of colonial life.

I am not ignoring the influence that Christianity contributed to the founding of America. You are seriously wrong if you think that. This explains why;

My line of thinking or argument on this debate is valid whether it is myself as the thinker being (1) non-Christian but not anti/Christian.

My argument works if I am a (2) Protestant Christian in the traditional sense taking Jesus as a personal savior, etc.

My argument works if I am a (3) Real Christian in the Jeffersonian sense that’s been discussed here on this thread. That is having strong affinity and respect for the moral teachings of Jesus, the mortal man who Is not divine, not the Son of God, or not supernatural in any way.

Many of the Founding Fathers were (3) Real Christians subdivided into Deists, Unitarians etc Jefferson and Adams for sure rejected the Holy Trinity of (2) Christendom.

As I said, I was married in a Unitarian Church. I attended the Unitarian Congregation where I grew up. The Unitarians and Quakers were the only churches that officially came out against the war in Vietnam that I could find.

My religious views were formed from as young as I can remember through high school at the peak of casualties on both sides of the Vietnam War.

I was baptized newly born Protestant Christian in a Lutheran Church.

I never attended Catechism which I was reminded by my mother my entire life.

Around the age of ten I was the second oldest in a family of six kids. We lived in a former old wooden office building in a rural area that was converted into a duplex. My paternal grandparents lived in the other half. My Grandmother was extremely religious as typical in a farming community during the 1950’s. She raised Irish and Gordon Setters, hunting and show dogs. I worked for my grandmother feeding and watering dogs and cleaning the pens and kennels. My grandmother never showed any kindness or gentleness toward me.

I do not know why but I would not go as a young child to church. My Grandmother expected that from my brothers and sisters and they all went. I refused and succeeded in convincing my mom and dad that I did not need to go to church and Sunday school with my grandmother.

I loved the woods and nature in the thousands of acres of Ohio State Game Preserve Land that surrounded my home. I loved wild animals and the dogs I took care of. I explored every inch of it. I had a cousin, Butch. A year younger than me. Butchie visited often and every Sunday dressed in a jacket and tie and went to a church with Grandma. He was her pride and joy.

Trouble was Butchie provided me with my first concept of what an asshole was.

In the woods my friends and I spent much time building forts and tree houses. A Tom Sawyer dream. My cousin led a gang that hunted down our forts and knocked them down. One day they showed up while we were there. They brought buckets of rocks from the roadway a mile away. There were no rocks in the woods. They threw rocks at us so we picked them up and threw them back. I watched one stone I threw fly in a perfect arch toward the spot when Butchie popped up and it hit him square on the forehead. Bleeding and screaming he ran back to grandma. I thought I killed him, but from that point on any chance that I would not burn in Godless Hell was over.

Around that time I rescued a rejected puppy born in the winter and the only puppy in a rare litter of one. He was all black. A mix somehow. I fed him with bottle dropper into a beautiful strong little puppy that I assumed would be mine. WRONG. Butchie said he wanted the puppy and I guess the puppy was not going to be raised in an unchristian home.

One day, I went to my cousins house and found Butch and his buddies throwing my dog off a twenty foot high bridge. I got my dog took him home and kept him as my dog.

My parents got divorced years later, moved to the city. My Grandmother died rather young, never asked why, and then sometime after that Butchie was killed around the age of 13 14 thrown from the back of pickup truck that failed to make a curve at high speed.

My religious views resurfaced a few years later when the Vietnam War was on TV and I ended up reading about that foreign land and people and it led to an interest in religion.

I studied on my own and read all I could find. I searched for answers to what religion meant to others and myself. My interests led me at one point to religion and war. That led to reading about Buddhism, Gandhi and Tolstoy, MLK and what Jesus said in the Bible.

I worked as dishwasher at 14, then my mom was getting married to a man I could not tolerate. I moved out at fifteen and have worked and paid my way through high school and signed my own grade cards forging my fathers name. I worked after school all through high school

At 17 a 1964 Pontiac LeMans hit my motorcycle head on. It’s fault. I survived all that and at twenty I was married and my first of three daughters were born.

My reading about religion and war was on and off but over time I started a notebook cutting and pasting Quotes from the people I read about. Jesus’ sermon on the mount was in that booklet. A photo of a Buddhist Monk setting himself on fire to protest the Vietnam War,

Then after cutting and pasting from the Bible myself I came across the Jefferson Bible

My natural religion was settled, My appreciation for the works of Jesus was fine. I did not have to believe in anything else about him that my Christian Grandmother wanted.

I’m not anti-Christian at all organize as myself. I’m just opposed to ton coercion from anyone or organization telling me what to think about God.

But to come here to make the case that America was not founded as a Christian Nation, I am regarded as a Jesus hating atheist commie troll.

No one has wanted to hear my case as of yet, I hope for an audience. But if not I am fine with putting it on the record knowing just how strong my life’s Philosophy and Intuition truly are.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I don’t see how that changes the fact that we were founded as a Christian nation

We "formed a more perfect union" is not creating a nation. It was a coming together of sovereign states = plural, as in more than one, which was recognized and called "in order to form a more perfect union"- we weren't "founded"- a constitution was established. A set of rules called laws. A union of sovereign states agreed to the constitution. I say these things because the argument has become an esoteric pissing contest and if we get absolutely technical for discernment. then, by god be totally technical. No where in the preamble was any religion mentioned, or values or virtues- they were of a generic persuasion to explain WHY the constitution was established as the Supreme Law-

Since you want to be technical, you would be wrong. There are several examples to show that the founders intended this to be a Christian nation in the Constitution. Surely you've read most of the thread and the state constitutions. AND, it was required of office holders to take an oath before assuming public office. So, the federal government was upholding what the states did... which adds to that claim that we were founded as a Christian nation. The Sunday exception rule, the signing of the Constitution in "the year of our Lord," etc., etc. OMG. Every time this thread is coming to an end, we're rehashing all of it all over.

For real guys, my critics will fight you like you screwed their 11 year old virgin daughter to say the word Republic. Oh no, to them it's Democracy... though the founders / framers hated that form of government. So, then they try Democratic Republic. Then when if you compromise there, it becomes a secular nation. NONE of this anti-Christ crap is in the Constitution, Declaration of Independence or state constitutions. Yet what we are has been alluded to and there is NO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE FOR THE THEORY WE WERE FOUNDED TO SELF DESTRUCT AS AN ANTI-CHRISTIAN ENTITY.

The founders / framers were unequivocal in their intent. We have their words, actions, Charters, Compacts, laws, customs, even United States Supreme Court rulings plus personal opinions of the United States Supreme Court Justices that were nominated by these supposed atheists, deists, secularists, etc., etc. The argument over what the founders / framers intended deliberately leaves out the input of virtually all the men who contributed to and signed the documents. To think that many people would sign any document antithetical to their beliefs and interests ... and intended to destroy them as a people is saying you think all of those founders / framers were idiots without an ounce of intelligence. You're condemning 95 percent of the founders / framers whose writings are irrefutable when it comes to their intent.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23948002

I think you are ignoring the influence that Christianity played. From education to law to values and principles Christianity touched every aspect of colonial life.

I am not ignoring the influence that Christianity contributed to the founding of America. You are seriously wrong if you think that. This explains why;


My line of thinking or argument on this debate is valid whether it is myself as the thinker being (1) non-Christian but not anti/Christian.


My argument works if I am a (2) Protestant Christian in the traditional sense taking Jesus as a personal savior, etc.


My argument works if I am a (3) Real Christian in the Jeffersonian sense that’s been discussed here on this thread. That is having strong affinity and respect for the moral teachings of Jesus, the mortal man who Is not divine, not the Son of God, or not supernatural in any way.


Many of the Founding Fathers were (3) Real Christians subdivided into Deists, Unitarians etc Jefferson and Adams for sure rejected the Holy Trinity of (2) Christendom.


As I said, I was married in a Unitarian Church. I attended the Unitarian Congregation where I grew up. The Unitarians and Quakers were the only churches that officially came out against the war in Vietnam that I could find.


My religious views were formed from as young as I can remember through high school at the peak of casualties on both sides of the Vietnam War.


I was baptized newly born Protestant Christian in a Lutheran Church.


i never attended Catechism which I was reminded by my mother my entire life.


Around the age of ten I was the second oldest in a family of six kids. We lived in a former old wooden office building in a rural area that was converted into a duplex. My paternal grandparents lived in the other half. My Grandmother was extremely religious as typical in a farming community during the 1950’s. She raised Irish and Gordon Setters, hunting and show dogs. I worked for my grandmother feeding and watering dogs and cleaning the pens and kennels. My grandmother never showed any kindness or gentleness toward me.


I do not know why but I would not go as a young child to church. My Grandmother expected that from my brothers and sisters and they all went. I refused and succeeded in convincing my mom and dad that I did not need to go to church and Sunday school with my grandmother.


I loved the woods and nature in the thousands of acres of Ohio State Game Preserve Land that surrounded my home. I loved wild animals and the dogs I took care of. I explored every inch of it. I had a cousin, Butch. A year younger than me. Butchie visited often and every Sunday dressed in a jacket and tie and went to a church with Grandma. He was her pride and joy.


Trouble was Butchie provided me with my first concept of what an asshole was.


In the woods my friends and I spent much time building forts and tree houses. A Tom Sawyer dream. My cousin led a gang that hunted down our forts and knocked them down. One day they showed up while we were there. They brought buckets of rocks from the roadway a mile away. There were no rocks in the woods. They threw rocks at us so we picked them up and threw them back. I watched one stone I threw fly in a perfect arch toward the spot when Butchie popped up and it hit him square on the forehead. Bleeding and screaming he ran back to grandma. I thought I killed him, but from that point on any chance that I would not burn in Godless Hell was over.


Around that time I rescued a rejected puppy born in the winter and the only puppy in a rare litter of one. He was all black. A mix somehow. I fed him with bottle dropper into a beautiful strong little puppy that I assumed would be mine. WRONG. Butchie said he wanted the puppy and I guess the puppy was not going to be raised in an unchristian home.


One day, I went to my cousins house and found Butch and his buddies throwing my dog off a twenty foot high bridge. I got my dog took him home and kept him as my dog.


My parents got divorced years later, moved to the city. My Grandmother died rather young, never asked why, and then sometime after that Butchie was killed around the age of 13 14 thrown from the back of pickup truck that failed to make a curve at high speed.


My religious views resurfaced a few years later when the Vietnam War was on TV and I ended up reading about that foreign land and people and it led to an interest in religion.


I studied on my own and read all I could find. I searched for answers to what religion meant to others and myself. My interests led me at one point to religion and war. That led to reading about Buddhism, Gandhi and Tolstoy, MLK and what Jesus said in the Bible.


I worked as dishwasher at 14, then my mom was getting married to a man I could not tolerate. I moved out at fifteen and have worked and paid my way through high school and signed my own grade cards forging my fathers name. I worked after school all through high school


At 17 a 1964 Pontiac LeMans hit my motorcycle head on. It’s fault. I survived all that and at twenty I was married and my first of three daughters were born.


My reading about religion and war was on and off but over time I started a notebook cutting and pasting Quotes from the people I read about. Jesus’ sermon on the mount was in that booklet. A photo of a Buddhist Monk setting himself on fire to protest the Vietnam War,


Then after cutting and pasting from the Bible myself I came across the Jefferson Bible


My natural religion was settled, My appreciation for the works of Jesus was fine. I did not have to believe in anything else about him that my Christian Grandmother wanted.


I’m not anti-Christian at all organize as myself. I’m just opposed to ton coercion from anyone or organization telling me what to think about God.


But to come here to make the case that America was not founded as a Christian. I am regarded as a Jesus hating atheist commute troll.


No one has wanted to hear my case as of yet, I hope for an audience. But if not I am fine with putting it on the record knowing just how strong my life’s Philosophy and Intuition truly are.

Among all the things you've proven to be on this thread is that you are a liar. You concocted crap about me. You misrepresent the facts. You want to attach your own personal definition to something defined by the founders and framers. Your avatar looks like the commie you are.

I'm just feeding you the same crap you've thrown at me. You've had it your way since 1962. Any more of the government you wanted and we won't exist. Then you can be happy.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

We did not have the secular nation that the atheists, secularists, etc. claim on this thread until 1962. THAT is when they (the NOTFOOLWEBYW's) got America their way.

Since then, we haven't won a war, our economy took a dump and we're a debtor nation; children became drug addicts, we became the nation with more people in prison than any other nation, and now children are less affluent than their parents AND have shorter life spans. The third world took over Congress and if you utter anything "Christian," your ass will get raked over the coals by people like NOTFOLLEDBYW.

Denials won't change the facts.

 

[Gdjjr]

Since you want to be technical, you would be wrong.

You want me to be wrong- I used the words, as written, for evidence. All the anecdotes in the world won't change them.

There is no mention of religion in the constitution- I used the pre amble as the example, for "establishing" (technically) the rules for a government. They didn't found, they established, per their words- coming together in order to "form a more perfect union"- the union consisted of sovereign states- thus the 10th amendment (which you successfully show to be basically nullified by the 14th amendment) - sovereign states is plural- nation is one = the 14th amendment. Then was "officially" sanctioned in the pledge of allegiance, one nation, under God - long after the original experiment had been "established".
In the Declaration of Independence the word Creator is used to avoid sanctioning a religion, prior to the constitution establishing the rules for gov't, not godvernment, which is a devolution from the original intent- which is what Britain did which many opposed.
As for opinions or legal rulings I couldn't care less- everyone has an opinion- legal is rarely moral and relies heavily on intentional misinterpretation as justification which is merely an excuse, not a reason, as reason is a sound explanation, where excuse is an attempt to justify which we see daily in every walk of life, especially in the District of Criminals, and courts of law.

THE bottom line to the opinions and legal rulings is a lack of respect for Individual rights- one simple rule- respect others.
It's not esoteric and doesn't require a degree in anything- however, the school of hard knocks, of which I am a student, while working on my PhD in that particular arena (my thesis is on going) - it comes down to, quite simply- begets begets- there is ample evidence to support that anecdotal and empirical.

But, I digress. Religion did, of course, have influence- that doesn't equate to establishing based on- the establishing of rules for gov't interdiction was explicitly called out, enumerated, and there is no mention of a religious bent. It was thought the rules could help prevent an "official" oppression or tyranny from a central power, the gov't.= key being "help prevent" IF those rules had been adhered to by other rule makers there could, conceivably, be a different outcome. But that is merely optimistic speculation. Speculation is opinion. Optimistic is a natural positive trait. So, my natural tendency is to be positive in my opinions- and objective through a natural trait and formal training- where as religion is subjective to sustain an objective- control. The same as what we now fight politically- collectivist/group think to attain a preconceived notion of how things should (highly subjective) be.