America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Porter Rockwell]

#1034

You insulted me by posting an off topic post AND basically calling Christianity bullshit.

If quoting the “exact words” from one of the most prominent founding fathers and our third president, in a discussion regarding the religious beliefs in Jefferson’s time on a Thread titled “America was founded as a Christian Nation “ perhaps you are in the wrong line of work.

I take pride submitting only ‘exact’ quotes in what I write. I’m not going to misquote a former president because Jefferson’s attacks on the corrupt Christian Church hurt your feelings.


OFF TOPIC POST?????? My god,

Jefferson’s views on Christianity is off topic, has nothing to do with Founding a Christian Nation??????

i hope everybody gets a chance to read this.

You complete and total ignoramus. A copy and paste is not me quoting anyone. Don't screw with me ever again. You're too stupid to be in any conversation.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#1034

You insulted me by posting an off topic post AND basically calling Christianity bullshit.

If quoting the “exact words” from one of the most prominent founding fathers and our third president, in a discussion regarding the religious beliefs in Jefferson’s time on a Thread titled “America was founded as a Christian Nation “ perhaps you are in the wrong line of work.

I take pride submitting only ‘exact’ quotes in what I write. I’m not going to misquote a former president because Jefferson’s attacks on the corrupt Christian Church hurt your feelings.


OFF TOPIC POST?????? My god,

Jefferson’s views on Christianity is off topic, has nothing to do with Founding a Christian Nation??????

i hope everybody gets a chance to read this.

ACKNOWLEDGING THE TROLL

I made no such claims. NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE This list of NOTFOOLEDBYW updated today and an addendum follows in the next post...

NOTFOOLEDBYW - YOU ARE A FILTHY LIAR. SEE THE UPDATES THAT PROVE SAME. Bolded for everyone's convenience

NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE

This thread is now 1025 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 187 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805, 807, 812, 824, 827, 830, 831, 832, 844, 847, 860, 872, 899, 904,913, 929, 936, 943, 946, 951, 965, 973, 986, 999, 1011, 1018

In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.


By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 137 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779, 834, 837, 839, 954, 971, 974, 976, 1002, 1016, 1019

I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW a total of 90 times personally. That is a total of 414 posts that have revolved around this one poster.

One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:

1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.

I really do not want to restart any conversations with THIS idiot about Thomas Jefferson and my quote. But, I cut and pasted the quote as I found it on the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

If you look a few quotes down, you can see where I got it from. When that troll made a big deal out of my inadvertent faux pas of leaving out the link, I looked up the book from where the quote was obtained and put it in post #552. I DIDN'T LIE AND NOTFOOLEDBYW IS A ROTTEN, FILTHY, STINKING, LIAR. ALL of his posts were responded to honestly and openly. Check his posts... he's quoting me and it's there.


2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie

3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life

4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)

If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the fucking quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AN ADDENDUM TO NOTFOOLEDBYW if you are following that whizzing contest

Just in case anyone has followed the saga of the poster known as NOTFOOLEDBYW, I want to take a moment to acknowledge his vicious attacks on me that, as I type those were 187 out of the 1025 posts. He received 137 negative responses for his attacks and a single hit and run poster (which is against the rules) took a swipe at me (and that violated the rules in this zone.)

NOTFOOLEDBYW's very first post (#78) was to take a swipe at Christianity with a claim that it was bullshit (sic.) The post did not address the OP; it was just an off topic insult. If his post was not relative to the OP (it was not) then he deliberately, knowingly and purposely insulted me.

NOTFOOLEDBYW has made it his mission to claim I insulted him first. My position is that his post did not address the OP, it started the thread on a downward spiral. So, when I said "ignorance is bliss," he comes unglued for 187 posts so far. His entire argument rests on an accusation regarding what "I" said. I left a quote from a source. The quote is italicized and in quotation marks AND the title and page of a book, but no link. It should be apparent to any idiot that those were not my words.

NOTFOOLEDBYW made a big deal about it, so I researched the book and posted the title and everything needed to locate it on the page my link said it was on. Then NOTFOOLEDBYW issued a challenge in post # 831. He says:

"Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

In post # 838 I accepted his challenge and repeated the quote I had from the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

NOTFOOLEDBYW's argument is that I lied. Pardon my language, but you have to be one dumb fuck not to understand that a quote in quotation marks AND in italics are not my words, but a quote. Consequently, it is dishonest to say I lied. I provided the source and there is no requirement in NOTFOOLEDBYW'S challenge that says the quote must be accurate or fit some standard. NOTFOOLEDBYW is a dishonorable liar that did not keep his word.

And so this saga has caused NOTFOOLEDBYW to misrepresent my positions, lie, complain, and attempt to derail this thread to the point that correll wants to lock the thread. I simply don't want to give one troll that kind of power over me. NOTFOOLEDBYW has gotten 137 negative responses and he has called posters here morons, liars, fools, etc. He wanted to be the poster boy for the secularists or maybe humanists. The best he could do is waste a tremendous amount of bandwidth over one word. Ironically, with or without that word, it does not change the facts that were brought to the table AND WHOLLY IRRELEVANT TO THE OP.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#1037. It must be that America was not founded as a Christian Nation if “Christian” is nothing but a general term that does not identify who the Christians were and what their religious belief had to do with the founding of the United States of America and writing of the Constitution.

#1019

Christian is a general term.

Correll did not answer the key part of the question. I asked about two of the most prominent founders. Thomas Jefferson and Roger Sherman. One was a devout Protestant Christian in the Tradition of French theologian John Calvin. The other respected Jesus of a Nazareth as a great moral teacher with no hocus pocus of the Bible, Who considered
Calvinism to be “ daemonism. If ever man worshipped are false God” John Calvin did.

This was my question posed in Post #1018

Is it Jefferson’s anti-Church, anti-Calvinism Christian-ness, or the Calvinism it Roger Sherman the Constitutional Calvinist.

So if we are to accept Porter Rockwell’s request to define America as a Christian Nation, is It based upon two very much involved founders; was it a John Calvin
reform Christian or was it a Jesus the human moral teacher Christian.

Christian as a general term.

The way that liberals pretend to not understand the concept of generalizations, is well known and not the topic of this thread.

YOur desire to avoid that point, by muddying the waters with insane detail and meaningless squabbles about those details,


has already been denied.


YOU HAVE LOST. ALL YOU ARE DOING NOW, IS DEMONSTRATING THAT YOU ARE UNABLE TO ADMIT THAT, AND THAT ROCKWELL, RELATIVE TO YOU, IS THE VOICE OF REASON.

If someone is too stupid to understand that a copy and paste is not the same as quoting someone, it makes you wonder how much IQ we're dealing with in discussing this with the thread troll.

Insofar as the quote being "exact," we may not have all the facts still. The old English is not the exact same as we have today so you you can have words spelled differently, punctuation differences, etc. So, for me, I do not think the troll has a good enough case to justify the time he's spent trying to condemn me - ESPECIALLY when I went back and gave the title and other info from the book it was taken. The man is foolish to think I can independently verify every single statement that I quote. If the information is wrong, you can point it out and move on.

Ironically, it would not change the fact that Jefferson, himself, said he was a Christian - qualifiers or not. So, Jefferson may not have been mainstream, he was only ONE MAN. He wasn't God. He was a man conflicted and his religious views changing and evolving all the way up to his death.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

FWIW - "The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effective means of limiting Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools." Benjamin Rush

I was amazed by this quote given the twists and turns this thread has taken. Here is why. On the same site that gives this quote, it has this to say about Rush:

"The Founding Father of the United States, Benjamin Rush was an illustrious civic leader from Philadelphia, where he was an educator, physician, founder of Dickinson College, politician, humanitarian, and a social reformer. He patronized the Continental Congress and initialized the Declaration of Independence. He served the Continental Army as its surgeon and also became a professor of medical theory, clinical practice and chemistry at the University of Pennsylvania. He was an ardent supporter of American Revolution and an important part of the American Enlightenment. He played a pivotal role in a number of reforms especially in the areas of education and medicine."

Top Benjamin Rush Quotes

The way it's been presented to me thus far, is that if someone were suddenly "enlightened," they could not be a Christian. Now, there is what ONE Christian contributed.

America was founded as a Christian nation. So, what does that mean? IF we move past the trolling, I'd like to answer that since we were prevented from exploring that issue.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

"Richard Henry Lee (January 20, 1732 – June 19, 1794) was an American statesman from Virginia best known for the motion in the Second Continental Congress calling for the colonies’ independence from Great Britain. He was a signatory to the Articles of Confederation and his famous resolution of June 1776 led to the United States Declaration of Independence, which Lee signed."

Richard Henry Lee

"...Though he originally opposed the Constitution, he helped push through the Bill of Rights."

https://www.biography.com/political-figure/richard-henry-lee

"Richard Henry Lee is regarded as one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America. He was one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. He was a delegate from Virginia. Richard Henry Lee was also a Senator in the First U.S. Federal Congress (1789-1791).

Richard Henry Lee was an Anglican and a devout Christian.

From: B. J. Lossing, Signers of the Declaration of Independence, George F. Cooledge & Brother: New York (1848) [reprinted in Lives of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence, WallBuilder Press: Aledo, Texas (1995)], page 173"

Richard Henry Lee, Signer of Declaration of Independence

"No free government was ever founded, or ever preserved its Liberty, without uniting the characters of the citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the state...such area well-regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen."

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them"

To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them...

Another contribution by a Christian to the founding of America

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#1047 The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

Thomas Jefferson (1984). “Jefferson: Writings”, p.1970, Library of America

Insofar as the quote being "exact," we may not have all the facts still.

All Jefferson’s letters are archived and there is no dispute that what you copied and pasted was doctored by adding the word “Christ” Into a sentence that was so significantly chopped from the full sentence, the writers original intent was totally obliterated.

He was talking about his project of cutting out the corrupt supernatural hocus pocus out is the Bible, The Holy Word of God.

Anyone can accidentally copy a misquote / that is not the issue. Once advised of the misquote, and a check with more authoritative sources, you needed to reevaluate the argument you were making based on the misquote.

You didn't do the right thing, That is not my fault.

 

[badger2]

Freedom From Religion Foundation has published a book, The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism is Un-American. Either you get clued up to protect yourself, or you don't. Neither Romney nor the protection-racket mafia he represents are doing that well in duping the people:

'The Washington Post reported in December that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has amassed about $100 billion that is supposed to be used for charitable purposes. A former investment manager for the church made the allegations in a whistleblower complaint to the Internal Revenue Service in November.

The confidential document accuses church leaders of misleading members and possibly breaching federal tax rules by hoarding donations instead of using them for charitable works. The Post reports that the complaint was filed by David Nielson, a MOrmon who worked recently as a senior portfolio manager at the church's investment division, Ensign Peak Advisors, which is based near the church's headquarters in Salt Lake City.

Nonprofit organizations, including religious groups and FFRF, are exempted in the United States from paying taxes on their income. Ensign is registered as a supporting organization of the LDS Church, which permits it to operate as a nonprofit. Nielsen urged the IRS to remove the church's tax-exempt status and alleges that Ensign could owe billions in taxes. (Rewards to whistleblowers are offered from the IRS if it recoups any money.)

According to the Post story, the Mormon church collects about $7 billion annually in contributions from members. About $6 billion of that is used to cover operating costs and the remaining $1 billion is transferred to Ensign, which invests it to generate returns. The complaint estimates the portfolio has grown from $12 billion in 1997 to about $100 billion. Ensign has not directly funded any religious, educational, or charitable activities in 22 years, the complaint also stated.

"If you have a charity that simply amasses a war chest year after year and does not spend any money for charity purposes, that does not meet the requirements ot tax law," said Philip Hackney, a former IRS official who teaches tax law at the University of Pittsburgh and was hired by the Post to analyze the whistleblower documents.'
(LDS Church Misled Members on $100 Billion Tax-Exempt Fund, Freethought Today, Jan-Feb 2020)

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#1049. I posted this earlier on Post #965. I agree quite strongly with the third partial paragraph.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Constitutional Calvinist | The American Conservative

{This is the best life of Connecticut’s foremost Founding Father ever written. More than that, it demonstrates once and for all that Calvinism played a very significant role in shaping the American Revolution and U.S. Constitution. Henceforth, historians will have to take account of Mark David Hall’s book in all studies of “the creation of the American republic.”

Hall sets out to correct a serious flaw in the historiography. While prominent accounts of the American Revolution’s intellectual underpinnings devote considerable attention to the influence of Lockean, classical republican, Scottish Enlightenment traditions, the influence of Reformed Protestantism—that is, Calvinism—tends to be overlooked. Although the focus is on Sherman’s political thinking, Hall tell us, his book shows that the Reformed tradition was central to the thought of Samuel Adams, John Hancock, Oliver Ellsworth, Jonathan Trumbull, William Paterson, John Witherspoon, and several other prominent Calvinist politicians as well.

As Hall puts it, “I am not arguing that Calvinism was the only influence on Sherman and his colleagues, simply that it was a very important influence that needs to be taken more seriously if we are to appreciate the political theory and actions of many of America’s founders.”}

Then Porter Rockwell writes this:

#1046.

The way it's been presented to me thus far, is that if someone were suddenly "enlightened," they could not be a Christian. Now, there is what ONE Christian contributed.

That is stupid. I would never present such a stupid argument to you.

My very first post acknowledges the contribution of Christianity to the founding of our nation.

And again in #860 reply to #198

YES, Christianity is a part of our culture and heritage. And specifically, Protestant-Christian Deist-Christian, Unitarian and Deist, highly educated men, imbued in the Enlightenment influence of the time, established a new nation, founded upon many bedrock principles. One key principle was radical at the time. It was the Separation of Church and State.


That is a huge part of our heritage, A new culture of freedom of religion and even freedom of conscience rose above centuries of religious divisions and wars. A multi-cultural society was born.

As a result, Catholic Christians, Jewish people, atheists, Buddhists, free thinkers, non-Christians, Muslims, Native Americans, Agnostics, Hindu, and many other religions and non-believers were free to create our heritage; our national identity.

We are a Great Nation today because of it. Thank You Jefferson and Madison and all founders for our culture and our heritage.

Jesus had some great moral teachings; none were incompatible with the enlightenment philosophies that greatly influenced the founding of America.

And what did Washington say about the “enlightened and liberal policy, that marked the Washington’s age.

“Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”

George Washington, Edward Frank Humphrey (1932). “George Washington on religious liberty and mutual understanding: selections from Washington's letters”

 

[BreezeWood]

.
you can not have your argument of the founding as a christian nation and then deny the written document you base your proposal on as a matter of ambiguity - there is no mention of inalienable rights or equality mentioned in the final document, u s constitution therefore by your own argument that was a rendering by christianity despite the declaration of independence the citizenry fought for.

for its time the written u s constitution was indubitably the first truly sociologically secular document ever ascribed to as a governance in the recorded history of mankind - despite the christian influence.

You can't fix stupid.

NOWHERE does any document connected to our founding speak of "inalienable rights." The Bill of Rights codified the unalienable Rights

Samuel Alito, United States Supreme Court Associate Justice said:

“The seed that became the Bill of Rights was planted here in Philadelphia in 1776 when the Continental Congress adopted the Declaration of Independence,” he said. “The Declaration of Independence proclaims the every person has a certain unalienable rights that are precious to us. The Bill of Rights codifies the promise of the Declaration of Independence., it codifies unalienable rights that are precious to us as Americans. ”
Justice Samuel Alito on the Bill of Rights’ meaning here and globally - National Constitution Center

The balance of your argument has been refuted so many times here that only an idiot would post what you did. Read the thread. We don't have to litigate the same disproven B.S. daily.

.

“The Declaration of Independence proclaims the every person has a certain unalienable rights that are precious to us.

why do you refer to the declaration of independence when no where in the u s constitution is there the mention of equality or inalienable rights - what exactly do you believe the 19th amendment represents than the lack of your very basic argument no less ridiculous than alito's - what they left out actually really exists ...

tell us rockwell are you screaming for the ratification of the equal rights amendment or do you already believe it exists as fundamental law - christian. you can not be for both. equality and christianity.

What is the answer that will make you happy? Whatever you're arguing is a lot of disjointed nonsense. What is your real issue? Of what relevance does it have with the OP? OR are we even allowed to discuss the OP?

If you don't know the difference between inalienable versus unalienable FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE, you are not going to get too far. At the end of the day, what is your point? Is the Equal Rights Amendment in the Bible? Liberty is. What are you getting at? When do we discuss the OP? You're in violation of the board rules by attempting to change the subject and none of what you're saying will lead to any productive conversation. Tie your posts to the OP or find someone else to troll.

.
America Founded as a Christian Nation

When do we discuss the OP?

you do not reply in response to inquires that are relevant to your skewed position the declaration of independence you incorporate in your discussion for the founding of the nation has any relevancy for the distinguishing document that is the relevant document for that purpose, the u s constitution. they did not incorporate the declaration, that was fought for by the citizenry during the revolutionary war into the final document, the constitution by removing the precepts of equality - inalienable rights from its language.

by their omission, christians, the nation was influenced by their discretion despite the inclusion of the bill of rights mitigating that influence and in future amendments, 19th removed entirely their misogynistic influence altogether.

this country was not founded as a christian nation and if believed so is no longer a consideration at this time by the ensuing amendments added to the u s constitution that have removed much if not all the regressive christian influence at the time of its ratification.

I'm sorry, but my training forces me to be a wordsmith of sorts. What you are typing is not very coherent English. So, I'm forced to guess at what you're saying.

I have quoted United States Supreme Court Associate Justice, Samuel Alito once on how the Bill of Rights codified the unalienable Rights mentioned in the Declaration of Independence:

“The seed that became the Bill of Rights was planted here in Philadelphia in 1776 when the Continental Congress adopted the Declaration of Independence,” he said. “The Declaration of Independence proclaims the every person has a certain unalienable rights that are precious to us. The Bill of Rights codifies the promise of the Declaration of Independence., it codifies unalienable rights that are precious to us as Americans. ”

In the Heller decision, the United States Supreme Court HELD:

"The appellate court held that the District had the authority under D.C. law to promulgate the challenged gun laws; the court upheld as constitutional the prohibitions of assault weapons and of large-capacity magazines and some of the registration requirements. Using the Heller framework, the court upheld the requirement of mere registration because it was longstanding and hence, presumptively lawful, and the presumption stood unrebutted. In Heller the Supreme Court of the United States explained the Second Amendment "codified a pre-existing" individual right to keep and bear arms..."

From where do you think the Second Amendment was codified from, if not from the Declaration of Independence? The Right to keep and bear Arms is an extension to your Right to Life AND a means to protect your unalienable Right to Liberty.

If you want to discuss something else, you will have to make it plainer. Don't try to use big words to convey a ten cent concept unless you can put it into understandable English. And quit with the straw man stuff. In LAW, the rulings of inalienable and unalienable are different. I do not support inalienable rights and couldn't care less about them.

.

I have quoted United States Supreme Court Associate Justice, Samuel Alito once on how the Bill of Rights codified the unalienable Rights mentioned in the Declaration of Independence:

you have a habit of repeating yourself as though over time its content will somehow blossom into something meaningful -

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

there is no mention of equality in the u s constitution in fact the omission is the reason for most amendments added after its ratification ... and was the namesake for the revolutionary war, people died for.

as stated before alito's "what's left out actually exist" is in itself an admission the bill of rights without equality (14th amendment) was purely a subjective document amenable to whoever at the time was in the majority.

are you denying it was the christian influence that removed equality from the declaration of independence -
America Founded as a Christian Nation - when codifying the nations laws ... if so the christian "founding" has long past been run aground. at your obvious displeasure.

 

[Bezukhov]

You know, I'm thinking that Porter & Co. might be right. America has done some horrible things in its history, proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#1052 reply to #1043.

NOTFOOLEDBYW's very first post (#78) was to take a swipe at Christianity with a claim that it was bullshit (sic.) The post did not address the OP; it was just an off topic insult. If his post was not relative to the OP (it was not) then he deliberately, knowingly and purposely insulted me.

I will admit that I was taking a poke at Porter Rockwell’s fantasy that starting a thread titled “America was founded as a Christian Nation” was ”DUE TO POPULAR REQUEST “

But the truth is I did not write words that could ever be construed to be taking a swipe at Christianity with the claim that it was bullshit.

There is no popular request, Porter Rockwell’s feelings were very badly hurt.

I a Christian asked, ”There were Christians involved in the founding and revolt against the King, ...... How many currently immersed and obsessed with Christianity today would have appreciated one of the greatest minds of all the founders declaring that the Christian Bible is full of political dung. Nice word for bullshit?”

All can see what I say is true. Too true for Porter Rockwell.

I have posted one answer to my question regarding Jefferson and the dung in the Bible.

Catholic view
Library : The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson
The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson by Donald J. D'Elia

DESCRIPTION In this analysis of Thomas Jefferson, Dr. D 'Elia lays the groundwork for a truly Catholic perception of American history in general, in addition to unveiling an accurate portrait of the man.

• Yet, Jefferson's false principles in philosophy and religion, which are essentially those of "modern man" in today's consenting-adult society, and his private scurrilities, must be an affront to real Christians. This truth is beyond opinion, despite Jefferson's transparent sincerity. The man who had "sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man"47 was himself the victim of the most dangerous tyranny of all: ignorance of the Word of God. For Jefferson could not, and modern Americans cannot, declare themselves independent of God's truth.

I believe that is much closer to the truth about one of the greatest minds of thee founding of America from a Catholic view, than Porter Rockwell‘ s version.

and Jefferson’s views on Christianity are of the utmost importance related to the title of this thread.


Due to popular request.......

#78 reply to #1.

Due to popular request I am starting a thread covering the fact that America was begun as a Christian nation.

There were Christians involved in the founding and revolt against the King,

How many currently immersed and obsessed with Christianity today would have appreciated one if the greatest minds of all the founders declaring that the Christian Bible is full of political dung. Nice word for bullshit.

• Jefferson was most comfortable with Deism, rational religion, and Unitarianism.[3] He was sympathetic to and in general agreement with the moral precepts of Christianity.[4] He considered the teachings of Jesus as having "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man,"[5] yet he held that the pure teachings of Jesus appeared to have been appropriated by some of Jesus' early followers, resulting in a Bible that contained both "diamonds" of wisdom and the "dung" of ancient political agendas.[6]. Religious views of Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You know, I'm thinking that Porter & Co. might be right. America has done some horrible things in its history, proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.

That's funny. I was thinking that since the secularists, atheists, humanists, and theists were claiming every founding father as their own, they might want to man up and answer for those horrible things.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#1052 reply to #1043.

NOTFOOLEDBYW's very first post (#78) was to take a swipe at Christianity with a claim that it was bullshit (sic.) The post did not address the OP; it was just an off topic insult. If his post was not relative to the OP (it was not) then he deliberately, knowingly and purposely insulted me.

I will admit that I was taking a poke at Porter Rockwell’s fantasy that starting a thread titled “America was founded as a Christian Nation” was ”DUE TO POPULAR REQUEST “

But the truth is I did not write words that could ever be construed to be taking a swipe at Christianity with the claim that it was bullshit.

There is no popular request, Porter Rockwell’s feelings were very badly hurt.

I a Christian asked, ”There were Christians involved in the founding and revolt against the King, ...... How many currently immersed and obsessed with Christianity today would have appreciated one of the greatest minds of all the founders declaring that the Christian Bible is full of political dung. Nice word for bullshit?”

All can see what I say is true. Too true for Porter Rockwell.

I have posted one answer to my question regarding Jefferson and the dung in the Bible.

Catholic view
Library : The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson
The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson by Donald J. D'Elia

DESCRIPTION In this analysis of Thomas Jefferson, Dr. D 'Elia lays the groundwork for a truly Catholic perception of American history in general, in addition to unveiling an accurate portrait of the man.

• Yet, Jefferson's false principles in philosophy and religion, which are essentially those of "modern man" in today's consenting-adult society, and his private scurrilities, must be an affront to real Christians. This truth is beyond opinion, despite Jefferson's transparent sincerity. The man who had "sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man"47 was himself the victim of the most dangerous tyranny of all: ignorance of the Word of God. For Jefferson could not, and modern Americans cannot, declare themselves independent of God's truth.

I believe that is much closer to the truth about one of the greatest minds of thee founding of America from a Catholic view, than Porter Rockwell‘ s version.

and Jefferson’s views on Christianity are of the utmost importance related to the title of this thread.


Due to popular request.......

#78 reply to #1.

Due to popular request I am starting a thread covering the fact that America was begun as a Christian nation.

There were Christians involved in the founding and revolt against the King,

How many currently immersed and obsessed with Christianity today would have appreciated one if the greatest minds of all the founders declaring that the Christian Bible is full of political dung. Nice word for bullshit.

• Jefferson was most comfortable with Deism, rational religion, and Unitarianism.[3] He was sympathetic to and in general agreement with the moral precepts of Christianity.[4] He considered the teachings of Jesus as having "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man,"[5] yet he held that the pure teachings of Jesus appeared to have been appropriated by some of Jesus' early followers, resulting in a Bible that contained both "diamonds" of wisdom and the "dung" of ancient political agendas.[6]. Religious views of Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

ACKNOWLEDGING THE TROLL - YES, I WAS URGED IN ANOTHER THREAD ON USM TO START THIS AS A SEPARATE SUBJECT

I made no such claims. NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE This list of NOTFOOLEDBYW updated today and an addendum follows in the next post...

NOTFOOLEDBYW - YOU ARE A FILTHY LIAR. SEE THE UPDATES THAT PROVE SAME. Bolded for everyone's convenience

NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE

This thread is now 1025 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 187 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805, 807, 812, 824, 827, 830, 831, 832, 844, 847, 860, 872, 899, 904,913, 929, 936, 943, 946, 951, 965, 973, 986, 999, 1011, 1018

In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.


By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 137 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779, 834, 837, 839, 954, 971, 974, 976, 1002, 1016, 1019

I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW a total of 90 times personally. That is a total of 414 posts that have revolved around this one poster.

One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:

1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.

I really do not want to restart any conversations with THIS idiot about Thomas Jefferson and my quote. But, I cut and pasted the quote as I found it on the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

If you look a few quotes down, you can see where I got it from. When that troll made a big deal out of my inadvertent faux pas of leaving out the link, I looked up the book from where the quote was obtained and put it in post #552. I DIDN'T LIE AND NOTFOOLEDBYW IS A ROTTEN, FILTHY, STINKING, LIAR. ALL of his posts were responded to honestly and openly. Check his posts... he's quoting me and it's there.


2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie

3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life

4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)

If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the fucking quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass

 

[Bezukhov]

You know, I'm thinking that Porter & Co. might be right. America has done some horrible things in its history, proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.

That's funny. I was thinking that since the secularists, atheists, humanists, and theists were claiming every founding father as their own, they might want to man up and answer for those horrible things.

I don't claim any of them as my own, truth be told. If you want to claim them, Porter, have at it. They were hypocrites, so worship them in any way you see fit. My contributions to this thread were made to prove that Jesus, and all the other writers of the New Testament, never intended that Christians seize and use earthly political power. Show me a Bible verse where Paul, Peter or anyone else ever said "Now, when you take the reins of government use this as the basis for lording over everyone else". It ain't there. So you can claim that America is a "Christian Nation", to Jesus, it doesn't mean diddly squat.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION Part 6 Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 located at posts # 941, 942, 962, 963 , 964. and 988

I apologize to all who have to wade through mountains of trolling in order for me to be able to get to the point.

America was founded as a Christian nation. But, what does that mean?

In the very first post of this thread, I left a link that nobody clicked on. Regardless of which side of the aisle they stood on, nobody read it. The critics saw the title and jumped on the thread, posting profanities and political propaganda so that the real topic would be obscured and ignored by the intended audience. But we will get to the bottom line.

When our forefathers landed on the shores of the New World, they had a vision for America. The first thing required in the building of anything is to have a vision. What would this new land be like? What would our relationships be like? What would we strive for? How would we fit in? What was the purpose of coming to America? That vision was laid out for everyone in a link in post # 1. Okay, let's give you that link again:

https://www.casa-arts.org/cms/lib/PA01925203/Centricity/Domain/50/A Model of Christian Charity.pdf

Any sermon that is being quoted 300 years after it has been delivered must have some importance. One of the first things I really took note of was early in that sermon when Winthrop said:

"Thirdly, the Law of Nature would give no rules for dealing with enemies, for all are to be considered as friends in the state of innocence, but the Gospel commands love to an enemy. Proof:

If thine enemy hunger, feed him; "Love your enemies... Do good to them that hate you" (Matt. 5:44). This law of the Gospel propounds likewise a difference of seasons and occasions. There is a time when a Christian must sell all and give to the poor, as they did in the Apostles’ times.

There is a time also when Christians (though they give not all yet) must give beyond their ability, as they of Macedonia (2 Cor. 8). Likewise, community of perils calls for extraordinary liberality, and so doth community in some special service for the church."

These kinds of values would become a part of the psyche of our American culture. I mentioned in another posting regarding the Treaty of Tripoli of how we had to contend with the Muslims. Those countries (as per biblical prophecy) are always at war with everybody and everybody will be at war with them.

"12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." Genesis 16 : 12

The Muslim world has terrorized the entire globe and when they are killing people half way across the world, they are killing each other at the same time. Well, Christians do it too, but when the rest of the world sees the way we treat each other, even in war, it is comforting to see how Christian countries react. Take WWI during Christmas. After months of intense fighting, the soldiers of every Christian based country stopped fighting, embraced their enemy soldiers and celebrated Christmas. America - that shining city on a hill. I will have more examples.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You know, I'm thinking that Porter & Co. might be right. America has done some horrible things in its history, proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.

That's funny. I was thinking that since the secularists, atheists, humanists, and theists were claiming every founding father as their own, they might want to man up and answer for those horrible things.

I don't claim any of them as my own, truth be told. If you want to claim them, Porter, have at it. They were hypocrites, so worship them in any way you see fit. My contributions to this thread were made to prove that Jesus, and all the other writers of the New Testament, never intended that Christians seize and use earthly political power. Show me a Bible verse where Paul, Peter or anyone else ever said "Now, when you take the reins of government use this as the basis for lording over everyone else". It ain't there. So you can claim that America is a "Christian Nation", to Jesus, it doesn't mean diddly squat.

The problem I have with you is that, in all reality, you are an idiot.

I have NEVER stated in the course of this thread that Jesus or anyone else intended for Christians in America to seize any kind of earthly political power.

Read the first posting. You won't find ANYTHING about the United States destined to take political power for anyone. The first post doesn't concern itself with anything related to seizing any kind of world power. If anything, the converse is true.

I'm supposed to be nice to people who come here and make multiple false allegations, get into name calling and whine every time the thread troll has a problem... and none of you bother to read the first post nor access and read the freaking links???? Come on, dude. You are trolling the thread. And I don't respond to - let me correct that, I don't really read much of what you and the thread troll post because neither one of you had the common courtesy of reading the first post, accessing the link and seeing if this was about some freaking world takeover. The bottom reality is... it's opposite of what you think.

 

[Bezukhov]

You know, I'm thinking that Porter & Co. might be right. America has done some horrible things in its history, proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.

That's funny. I was thinking that since the secularists, atheists, humanists, and theists were claiming every founding father as their own, they might want to man up and answer for those horrible things.

I don't claim any of them as my own, truth be told. If you want to claim them, Porter, have at it. They were hypocrites, so worship them in any way you see fit. My contributions to this thread were made to prove that Jesus, and all the other writers of the New Testament, never intended that Christians seize and use earthly political power. Show me a Bible verse where Paul, Peter or anyone else ever said "Now, when you take the reins of government use this as the basis for lording over everyone else". It ain't there. So you can claim that America is a "Christian Nation", to Jesus, it doesn't mean diddly squat.

The problem I have with you is that, in all reality, you are an idiot.

I have NEVER stated in the course of this thread that Jesus or anyone else intended for Christians in America to seize any kind of earthly political power.

Read the first posting. You won't find ANYTHING about the United States destined to take political power for anyone. The first post doesn't concern itself with anything related to seizing any kind of world power. If anything, the converse is true.

I'm supposed to be nice to people who come here and make multiple false allegations, get into name calling and whine every time the thread troll has a problem... and none of you bother to read the first post nor access and read the freaking links???? Come on, dude. You are trolling the thread. And I don't respond to - let me correct that, I don't really read much of what you and the thread troll post because neither one of you had the common courtesy of reading the first post, accessing the link and seeing if this was about some freaking world takeover. The bottom reality is... it's opposite of what you think.

I have NEVER stated in the course of this thread that Jesus or anyone else intended for Christians in America to seize any kind of earthly political power.
Duuuhhh!! If you're setting up a Christian Nation you must be seizing earthly political power!!!

 

[Porter Rockwell]

LAUGHING AT THE RADICAL LEFT

Repeatedly this thread has been bombarded by left wing trolls that see the thread topic and then begin straw man arguments without even reading the first post and then make up stuff for me to argue against.

Are they out of their minds? What part of America was not founded as a theocracy do they not understand? Their reading skills and computer acumen has not led them to read the first post and they made it impossible for me to conduct this thread and discuss the OP.

They act like they own this damn board and it was just a few weeks ago that a couple of posters in a thread and a moderator (in a PM) said I should start this thread. But, the left wing cowards jumped on this like flies on a fresh turd, never reading the first post and not allowing me to go the direction I was going in. They are cowards and this post shows what would happen if the theists, deists, secularists, and atheists ran this country.... censorship on a world wide scale. Everything they've accused me of they would do themselves and more.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You know, I'm thinking that Porter & Co. might be right. America has done some horrible things in its history, proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.

That's funny. I was thinking that since the secularists, atheists, humanists, and theists were claiming every founding father as their own, they might want to man up and answer for those horrible things.

I don't claim any of them as my own, truth be told. If you want to claim them, Porter, have at it. They were hypocrites, so worship them in any way you see fit. My contributions to this thread were made to prove that Jesus, and all the other writers of the New Testament, never intended that Christians seize and use earthly political power. Show me a Bible verse where Paul, Peter or anyone else ever said "Now, when you take the reins of government use this as the basis for lording over everyone else". It ain't there. So you can claim that America is a "Christian Nation", to Jesus, it doesn't mean diddly squat.

The problem I have with you is that, in all reality, you are an idiot.

I have NEVER stated in the course of this thread that Jesus or anyone else intended for Christians in America to seize any kind of earthly political power.

Read the first posting. You won't find ANYTHING about the United States destined to take political power for anyone. The first post doesn't concern itself with anything related to seizing any kind of world power. If anything, the converse is true.

I'm supposed to be nice to people who come here and make multiple false allegations, get into name calling and whine every time the thread troll has a problem... and none of you bother to read the first post nor access and read the freaking links???? Come on, dude. You are trolling the thread. And I don't respond to - let me correct that, I don't really read much of what you and the thread troll post because neither one of you had the common courtesy of reading the first post, accessing the link and seeing if this was about some freaking world takeover. The bottom reality is... it's opposite of what you think.

I have NEVER stated in the course of this thread that Jesus or anyone else intended for Christians in America to seize any kind of earthly political power.
Duuuhhh!! If you're setting up a Christian Nation you must be seizing earthly political power!!!

You know, I'm thinking that Porter & Co. might be right. America has done some horrible things in its history, proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.

That's funny. I was thinking that since the secularists, atheists, humanists, and theists were claiming every founding father as their own, they might want to man up and answer for those horrible things.

I don't claim any of them as my own, truth be told. If you want to claim them, Porter, have at it. They were hypocrites, so worship them in any way you see fit. My contributions to this thread were made to prove that Jesus, and all the other writers of the New Testament, never intended that Christians seize and use earthly political power. Show me a Bible verse where Paul, Peter or anyone else ever said "Now, when you take the reins of government use this as the basis for lording over everyone else". It ain't there. So you can claim that America is a "Christian Nation", to Jesus, it doesn't mean diddly squat.

The problem I have with you is that, in all reality, you are an idiot.

I have NEVER stated in the course of this thread that Jesus or anyone else intended for Christians in America to seize any kind of earthly political power.

Read the first posting. You won't find ANYTHING about the United States destined to take political power for anyone. The first post doesn't concern itself with anything related to seizing any kind of world power. If anything, the converse is true.

I'm supposed to be nice to people who come here and make multiple false allegations, get into name calling and whine every time the thread troll has a problem... and none of you bother to read the first post nor access and read the freaking links???? Come on, dude. You are trolling the thread. And I don't respond to - let me correct that, I don't really read much of what you and the thread troll post because neither one of you had the common courtesy of reading the first post, accessing the link and seeing if this was about some freaking world takeover. The bottom reality is... it's opposite of what you think.

I have NEVER stated in the course of this thread that Jesus or anyone else intended for Christians in America to seize any kind of earthly political power.
Duuuhhh!! If you're setting up a Christian Nation you must be seizing earthly political power!!!

See above post